Triforce! Mailbag Special #4 - You can't cancel the Kennewick Man

[@joshconfer209]

I love this podcast. Lewis has a discussion with himself, pyrion gets salty and bored, sips tries to move on... It's like the inside of my head in entertaining form.

[@flufflelawaffle3089]

O

[@ChonkyMonkey1]

I like how they label them mailbag special, but in reality it's just your regular old triforce podcast

[@Terinije]

And for Pyrion, a horse maxes out at something like 15 horsepower.

[@JamieAubrey]

Today Pyrion reads a few mail bag items and Lewis spends the other 50 minutes talking about blood foods

[@brianm5060]

This sounds like a bad trip

[@XMysticHerox]

Sentience is the ability to feel things. Sapience is the ability to think. It's not that difficult. They are often used interchangably because people often don't know what the terms mean.

[@JoePlaysPuzzleGames]

Does "feel" mean to experience emotion? What is an emotion? What is experience? Where does experience come from? If a computer can react to messages and tell you how it feels about those messages, is it feeling? If I swap the parts of a computer so it's gradually more and more like a human brain, at what point does it feel? Does "think" mean able to process information? Or is it something more complex? How complex does a process have to be to be a thought? Does it require memory? Does it mean to experience the sensation of thinking (whatever that is)? Does a computer think? Is an emotion different to a thought? Or a kind of thought? Do animals think and feel? Is it possible to tell? If something behaves like it thinks and feels, does that mean it does? What is it in the human brain that makes it think and feel? Does a machine that has been constructed to function exactly like a human think or feel? What if it's been constructed to be atomically identical to a human? What if it's 90% identical? What's the cut off? Pyrion is exactly right that these terms are all hard to define and that defining one in terms of the other just opens up more questions. I'm sure everyone will have their own answers, but philosophers and scientists have been debating this stuff for a long time. It's not easy.

[@XMysticHerox]

@@JoePlaysPuzzleGames In this instance it generally means an ability to feel sensations which includes human emotions but can also be something as simple as pain. It depends a little what you are talking about. What sentience never is is just some stand in for "intelligence" or ability to think logically. Thats simply a wrong use of the term that has been growing more common lately. Sapience is about wisdom so no not emotion. You can look up what it means exactly. But it's generally about self-awareness and intelligence. A more general point on definitions. You can do this with literally any definition. You can't define something ex nihilo. You have to use other terms. If you know anything about linguistics you'd understand how idiotic this sort of argument is. They are just words to communicate what you are talking about. When you are actually discussing something specific or trying to determine if say a computer has achieved sapience you'd explain more closely what you are actually considering. But in a more general discussion these words are useful and not difficult to understand. You, me and Pyrion all know what thought and feelings are. As for what animals or computers do and don't. Well that is the question is it not? And no you do not need to be like a human to be sapient or sentient.

[@JoePlaysPuzzleGames]

@@XMysticHerox To be honest, I don't think I'm disagreeing with you as such, just acknowledging that Pyrion is also correct. It's just that your "It's not that difficult" kinda sounded like you were saying there's nothing more to it than that, but I think you were really just saying that the definitions themselves are not difficult. It's perfectly reasonable for those to be the definitions of the words, as long as you're understanding that the interpretation of those definitions is a deep topic that has many unanswered questions (some that may never be answered). As you say, if you need to get into the weeds of what the definitions mean, you can start trying to be more specific. Some philosophers use the term "experiential" instead of "conscious", to denote something that experiences in the way that we generally feel that we do (at least I do, but I can't be certain you do). Where do you feel the difference between experiential and sentient lies? Is there a difference? If something appears to feel pain, is it necessarily experiencing that pain in a similar way to how we might experience pain?

[@markhackett2302]

@@JoePlaysPuzzleGames So do you experience emotion when you touch? Or does the word "feel" have more than one meaning????

[@JoePlaysPuzzleGames]

@@markhackett2302 It has quite a few meanings! I'm interpreting MysticHero as meaning the kind of "feel" we mean when we say "I feel happy" or "That felt painful", although there's still the question of whether it's enough for that feeling to merely be represented in the brain or whether the actual sensation of feeling has more to it. But you do raise any interesting point! If I touch something, I certainly experience something. Is that similar to feeling an emotion? There's definitely something different. Does that count as a feeling?

[@Terinije]

Pyrion getting mad at being corrected about sentience vs sapience isn't very sapient. And them still not getting it is peak triforce.

[@censuur12]

It amuses me when they comment on ants just being a chemical reaction... Yeah that's how thinking works for everything that exists mate. Thoughts aren't pulled from some exterior cloud or spontaneously occur by magic, the main difference between us and ants is the complexity, scope and scale of our chemical reactions. The idea that cats and dogs don't spend significant time thinking is... just crazy. Do people really believe animals that are sitting in the sun somewhere are just... utterly void of cognitive processes? Would a cat stall out of there is nothing to react to? Certainly not, you can easily determine that cats (as an example) think, reflect, remember, regret (for years even) and proactively plan and scheme. They set traps, recognize patterns and figure out ways to interact with those patterns, they can teach other cats skills and techniques. To suggest that there is no thought involved is just... crazy.

[@BoredGamerUK]

Love the Podcast, even if it's just another mail bag special xD

[@mobagamers8204]

Didnt expect to see you here

[@AJxB]

o7

[@vinaypatel4084]

Woo!! Straight into the mailbag special

[@UTO7]

Horses in America are actually an interesting subject because the Spanish lost some in Mexico/California early on, and by the time settlers started moving west in the USA there were already wild populations that had bred on the plains, and the natives had even developed several new breeds(including mustangs and appaloosa). Same thing happened with hogs.

[@SorryYoureCanadian]

damn just blowing their entire load on the mailbag episodes at once

[@tarnyowl6068]

They’ll do anything to keep the episode number down.

[@markhackett2302]

The acre was one furlong, the distance an ox could pull a plough, and if you need to stop the ox, you might as well turn round, you could do that 8 times in a day before the ox either got too tired or your day ended, and each plough was one rod from end to end to be pulled. One acre is eight times one furlong times one rod. It made farming easier. At least until they invented the horse collar, which allowed the horse to do more work than the Ox. Plus one pound of water was one pint. To make it work, later, the imperial system was changed to be closer to metric. However, the ton in metric was close to the imperial UK tonne because a ship really REALLY didn't care what weight you used, and so it had standardised on the UK imperial tonne, so the metric ton HAD to be close enough to be used instead. The meter was defined to be close to the yard for the same reason, this is why it is 1/6,000th the distance from the equator to the pole and to make it "French" Napoleon said it was a line through Paris. If it wanted it to be "sensible" it would be 1/10,000th (1% of 1%) not 1/6,000th. The reason why decimal time failed was because either you change a day length or a second length (and therefore for the latter case, speeds of lots of things) to make decimal time and nobody wanted to change it from the already known sexadecimal system (base 60) of the day, definitely not decimal, what with 60 seconds to 1 minute, 60 minutes to 1 hour and 24 hours to 1 day. Loads of places had their own imperial. For example, before Napoleon, there was up to 12 imperial systems in what is today France before then. Only merchants cared. And today only merchants care that it is metric. Doesn't matter if it is bottled to 568ml or 1pt, doesn't matter if it weighs 1 pound, 16 fl Oz, or 560grammes. Because any ACTUAL "pint" will hold slightly more than that, to the accuracy of whatever poured it out. And what it pours out is just a setting.

[@teucer_]

Describing a toilet as being behind a paywall was the best line in this episode.

[@Njald]

Weight is no longer defined by a single object. Since 2019 it's defined by SI constants. "The kilogram, symbol kg, is the SI unit of mass. It is defined by taking the fixed numerical value of the Planck constant h to be 6.62607015×10−34 when expressed in the unit J⋅s, which is equal to kg⋅m2⋅s−1, where the metre and the second are defined in terms of c and ΔνCs."

[@paulnz1]

Pyrion sure read a damn long email when it involves Poop and creative writing that could find its way into a bodega novel

[@LordSpuggy]

What's wrong with duck legs? You'd eat duck and you'd eat chicken legs - Unusual boundaries

[@KyleDB150]

I’m pretty sure Pyrion (and maybe those journalists) have missed the point of those AI questions: its not just trawling google for facts, its coming up with comprehensible replies. (but yes obviously its not self aware or taught to check the premise of your question, nobodys claiming that)

[@markhackett2302]

I wonder if Pyrion has been on the internet recently.

[@knitterknerd]

I wonder if Pyrion recognizes the contradiction in some of his requests. He wants definitions to be more precise, but he wants emails to be short. The fact is, most things involve nuance. When there are corrections, they're often based on nuance. Unfortunately, it's often impossible to be accurate and thorough at the same time.

[@Birdface-nw1ub]

I'm still riding the glow from the Platty Jubes

[@holfwaley3973]

Lmao at someone telling pyrion the marines wear lids and blouses hahaha

[@Yasha277]

When you think about it, cheese is kind of a gross idea. But only as a concept, we all know it's actually delicious and should never be shamed.

[@kurukblackflame]

This episode: Pyrion exhibits some impressive mental gymnastics to avoid learning something new due to his apparent contempt for anyone that listens to this stuff. Sometimes it's better to feel like you're right than to be right, I suppose :)

[@rich_in_paradise]

Pyrion basically telling Lewis to stfu about his long boring food bit... we need more of that.

[@TheStarchamber]

There are plenty of people who are purely reactive with no indication of thought.

[@XMysticHerox]

People are "just" chemical reactions walking around. Thats not an argument in regards to the presense of thought.

[@dougpowers]

Given the powerful nature of the subconscious and some brain studies showing that decisions are made before a person realizes they've made it, it's not absurd to posit that our experience of "thought" is simply a way to make sense of a process that is uncomfortably automatic in nature.

[@andresousa9876]

Rice with blood, or Arroz de Cabidela as we say it here in Portugal, is soooo good. But some people take out the blood, so variations for all tastes do exist.

[@Vollyv]

'everybody has to use the toilet' that's why I would put an entry fee on mine in rollercoaster tycoon :3

[@Mynestrone]

7:40 thats because you dont hear us on your TV but we've heard every square mile of England

[@gregorB92]

Squid ink is used mostly in risotto..and its great

[@markhackett2302]

"Where is the meat on the head?" Read up on the british dish "Brawn".

[@jediplop3563]

They redefined the weights and lengths to be in terms of universal constants

[@maxbusselman9763]

I live 20 mins from where the Kennewick man was found

[@Cextra_the_artist]

same

[@maxbusselman9763]

@@Cextra_the_artist Go Falcons

[@bellenderjones7965]

Google is a thing guys why not use it so you dont talk shit for an hour lol. Love you guys keep it going its a great way to spend time.

[@musemechanic]

52:43 I have a tiny office.

[@Watam8o]

Yeah get wrecked Mickey. Go brush your teeth big guy

[@MikeyPFilm]

its mikey and i do!

[@ShinobiZeroTwoSix]

poor mikey

[@markhackett2302]

Modern horses were first in America. They moved to Eurasia, they died out in America, but not Eurasia, and therefore those horses had to be RE introduced to America, because by then, horses were no longer living in the USA.

[@RedSntDK]

Glad Denmark flew under the radar here. Even though head cheese and pickled herring and blood sausage was mentioned 😅

[@BONESTORM2501]

Nice. Let’s go

[@divamon5602]

WOOOO!

[@RCGamex]

Apparently a single horses maximum output is 14.9 horse power

[@TheDaker123]

3 men who grew up in a post-scarcity world can't comprehend why traditional dishes often reflect our ancestor's desperate hunger

[@zacharyenglish2904]

The sentience sapient guy is exactly wrong- he has it the other way around

[@PotentiallyAndy]

I’m just 7 months behind now. Catching up

[@stinkyferret1282]

I have tried sea urchin at a sushi place. Tasted like gooey and fishy salt water.

[@Zanth123]

No not lid it's called a cover

[@Rockondevil]

Where the podcast at

[@EPWillard]

Organ meat is wonderful idk what yall are worried about cow lung for

[@just_a_turkey]

Flax getting mad about stuff he's actually wrong about is so annoying.

[@kdg8076]

Top episode

[@EvileDik]

In answer to sip's question about regularly eaten disgusting food, just consider cheese as rotten cow sweat, which is ultimately what it is.

[@HYPERPEACE]

Also cheese and eggs are technically never vegetarian, since the animal dies at the end, or if it's the dairy industry, male calf is taken away and often killed for veal or raised for beef. Male chicks grinded to death due to being wasted products.

[@Zanth123]

Unless he was talking about being called a jar-head. That's because of having a high and tight hair cut.

[@heli0ns]

Am from Finland, can confirm blood pancakes are a real thing and actually taste pretty good! :D

[@Wyattporter]

That writer from a mailbag or two ago was totally right about Lewis possibly having ADHD. In the episode about reading e-mails, he finds an article about gross foods and reads most of it

[@adamcummings20]

"Colostomy man"

[@markhackett2302]

Sorry, Pyrion, WHY does "Sentience" have to be "something other than 'I am alive'"? Sentience is the ability to respond to external stimulus based on learned behaviour, so you, a human, I assume, Pyrion, is still sapient despite the fact that a doctor hitting your knee causes an autonomic reaction to that, because sapience is NOT the same as sentience, but the overlap is because you have to be sentient to be sapient too. A chemical reaction is what is sapient, but it is also what sentience is, and chemical reactions also are why wood burns, or iron rusts, etc. So you demand "a simple answer", but there IS no simple answer. What is YOU? You shed cells, and most of your cells are replaced within 14 years, so are you no longer you, but a different thing? "You" is not simple. "You" are taller in the morning than the evening, yet you still say you are a certain height, but you can't define you, your height, or anything, but here you are, anyway, saying you know both of those things, but they ARE NOT "simple things" if you put more than a cursory thought to it. But here you are, demanding a simple answer to sentience or sapience, and when you don't like that answer, after some thought, you want a different answer. PS there are only a small number of phrases to use, hence we have a German lemonade pronounced s-it. Not the same letters, but pronounced that very way.

[@XMysticHerox]

It also does not have to be either or. It's a spectrum. Humans can feel a much greater range of sensations than say a small fish with the various emotions we are capable of. Both have sentience but we are more sentient.

[@markhackett2302]

@@XMysticHerox But we don't say those who are blind are not human, despite being unable to sense colour, or light at all, via their eyes. We also don't claim they are not sapient, nor nonsentient. There's a lot of "grey".

[@aripocki]

Yeah I'm not calling a bacterium "sentient" by any stretch, nor my red blood cells performing chemical reactions.

[@jonathanthompson4734]

I wish Lewis would think before talking

[@GhostOfSparta]

You all should play crusader kings and hearts of Iron again

[@Kiltiee]

Deep fried pizza is anything but awful 😂

[@MikeyPFilm]

fuck ive been burned

[@HYPERPEACE]

Animals do think. Humans are trait equal to non-human animals. We vary in intelligence, that is undeniable, but that is more reason to not subject them to situations they do not want to be in, where they inevitably cannot choose. Meaning if you want to eat them, you are abusing them, because you are forcing them into a situation they do not want to be in, that being death. That reminds me, watch slaughterhouse footage of animals lining up to be killed, you'll see the animals waiting will panic and try to escape. If that isn't thinking (or just chemicals as Pyrion put it), then what is?

[@fawn2911]

I agree

[@markhackett2302]

Never known Pyrion to get so much wrong in one single episode. What you get is a "normalisation" from being underground, and you are well insulated, and insulation stops heat getting in OR heat getting out. The cooler with height thing in the atmosphere is NOT because of the atmosphere, though, it is because the GROUND intercepts sunlight, not air, and it is the GROUND that re-radiates that makes warm air: the ground making Infra Red that can't get out because the atmosphere is very opaque because triatoms will collect and thermalise IR. Triatoms like CO2 or H2O.

[@aripocki]

Your understanding is incredibly incomplete. Temperature and altitude is related in a variety of ways, including temperature and core earth temperature. - Any high school education would teach you that air pressure decrease corresponds to a drop in temperature (all HVAC condensers use this). This phenomenon contributes much more significantly than heat from the sun on the ground. If it works as you described, mountains would have the same ground temperature as sea level. - Ground temperature "normalizes" subsurface spaces because the incredibly high mass of earth makes temperature change difficult. Therefore the temperature quality of your space depends on the surrounding earth temperature - generally cool when close to the surface, but HOT when a MILE underground. This is why deep geothermal is used as a heating resource.

[@markhackett2302]

@@aripocki WRONG. See that Greenhouse Gas Effect? - "any high school education...." Irrelevant, really. "Temperature decreases with height" is 100% irrelevant as a counterpoint. Colder air would be denser. And it radiates. And it gets even colder. Then it gets even denser. Until it reaches solidity (mostly, because air isn't one gas) and radiates all of its energy away, at which point it is the same temperature through its entire height. So what causes the air to be "not frozen solid"? IR radiation from the solid earth, with a small skin effect from conduction/convection, hence we get mirages et al. PV=nRT isn't causing air temps to decrease with height. "Ground temperature..." And what does anything at, roughly, 300K do? Radiate mostly at IR wavelengths. See Wein's Displacement Law.

[@Iareawesome100]

horses were in the Americans but then went exctintct untill European colonizers re introduced them

[@midnightmastery9719]

I know some dogs who are better at solving puzzles than Sips is, so stop your speciesism and educate yourselves. The gap in sapience between some animals and humans is not that large.

[@fawn2911]

I've read that most pigs are smarter than toddlers too

[@HoboRoadshow7]

First emailer was both right and wrong. Sentience is the ability to feel. That isn’t the classic Latin definition, that’s the scientific definition. Any animal with a nervous system of some kind is sentient. Sapient, however, isn’t the word that defines human level consciousness, even if it’s often touted to be. It just means smart/wise In reality, there’s no real word to mean the way sci-fi uses sentience precisely for the reasons Pyrion thought the email was bullshit, you have to define thought and consciousness and things that are undefinable It’s easy to put a box around human thought and say it’s different to that of anything else, but there’s no proof or even reason to think that. We might be smarter, but that doesn’t mean there’s a magic word that can represent the way we mentally differ from other animals. Sentience as Pyrion has been using it is science fiction

[@checkeredgamer1586]

This is the best response honestly, as someone who is studying animal behaviour at uni and doing a dissertation on frog personality assessment, it’s not a simple thing and almost most animals we can think of would be classed as sentient since they have the capability of feeling both physically and emotionally, they just happen to have varying degrees of intelligence and complexity in terms of personality. On a side note I think stating all animals as purely reactionary is a disservice to them, so many different species in different taxonomic groups are capable of extremely complex feats comparable to us humans

[@Jakers457]

Horses originated from America right? In terms of evolution

[@FuseyUK]

Warning: Pro-vegan/vegetarian podcast. Proceed with caution.

[@Harv0206]

Pyrions rant about ai is way off here. With chat gpt you get out of it what you put in. If you use it for what it is, a tool, and don’t just sit there throwing rocks at it like a child, it will actually output useful information.

[@kazyhachi]

thats cause now we have chat gpt4 lol, not chatgpt3 like he says

[@jamesgazeley]

Wait duck is normal