You Can't Get Great Two-Channel Audio from a Home Theater System?

[@ShamuXEagleDriver]

These shorter, more focused, discussions are much more useful and enjoyable than either the 1 hr+ long winded guest videos or the very short, almost gimmicky, YT Shorts. This format is about perfect. Thanks.

[@charlesking678]

I agree with you. The hr long videos are hard to watch.

[@brooklynknightss]

Totally agree you lose intrest after awhile

[@Wmit79]

I have to disagree, there is a lot of great info in the long videos. I put them on while I’m doing something. Cutting grass, driving, and learn while also accomplishing something. I like having both to choose from.

[@lordsagat2503]

I'm really glad you talked about the phantom center effect. Many times I put my ear to the center channel thinking it was playing. Glad to know I'm doing something right LOL!

[@MrJasonfromcanada]

I recently bought a pair of paradigm founders 80f’s and once set up and balanced I had to do the same thing. I was like is my center on? 🤔 and had to make sure it wasn’t lol

[@I_am_not_a_bot-s6i]

My sister came around the first time she saw my set up that sounds amazing all the speakers make it sound like it is all around you I said only the front 2 are on,no way it sounds like hes singing in front of the speakers pointing to where she thought it was coming from I had a chuckle to myself. I have since moved them and no matter how hard I try I just can't replicate it I can get the image in the centre but not the depth like I had it, it was way out in front of them it really was WOW.@@MrJasonfromcanada

[@gregbartley2475]

I was an audio enthusiast long before Ht was a thing. I’ve assembled what I consider to be a system that does 2 channel and Ht very well. I followed all your suggestions except for foam behind the screen. My main l/r speakers are 3’ off the rear wall and nearly 2’ off the side walls. I also use l/r speakers that are very highly regarded for music listening

[@charlesking678]

What reciever you use? I'm a two channel man, but I need something that can also do movies and I find most avr's suck.

[@gregbartley2475]

@@charlesking678 it’s not an avr, I use a pre/pro. JBL Synthesis SDP 55

[@slyfox720]

I live in a peculiar townhome and don't have a lot of options to where I have my media room where I listen to music and watch movies....so I am pretty limited on quality of what I can get...however, I think I have done pretty good with trying to get good quality sound either for two channel listening or home theater. I am thinking I might need to go with a smaller sub...I am feeling my room size might just be too small for the Martin Logan I have. but I am pretty pleased with my set up. I definitely agree with speaker positioning....wow is that important. Even moving my speakers not far I can get totally different sound stage and quality. My current set up is B&W 603 S2, B&W M1 center, and some definitive technology promonitor 600s for surround backs..my room is small and ceiling pretty low to even think about trying to dolby atmos. My receiver is Pioneer Elite VSX-LX305

[@genkifd]

I use to play music more than watch movies in my HT setup. what i've found is many receivers just are not upto the task in regards to bringing good quality power for a 2 channel listening.

[@billsiemer4932]

Yes. Set it up for stereo first. When you have good depth and imaging then set up your surround. Use a similar speaker for the center but the rest aren't as important. Been using this method for thirty years. Works very well for me.

[@daveycrockett5738]

I get amazing 2 channel music listening from my home theater. This video made me happy. Made me Happy because people will say that all the time you can’t get good 2 channel from a home theater and just the fact that I did it right so I can. The way that I accomplished this was through speaker placement ofcourse and sun integration. From my seating position I have the equilateral triangular effect going where my speakers are about the same distance apart as my seat is from them. I have the toe in really locked in well creating the best phantom center I’ve ever heard. I feel my sub blends right in with my mains very well even though I run no room correction or rew. I will get to this in the future. Even without that the music that comes from my system 2 channel or Dolby surround is astonishing!

[@slode1693]

Absolutely you can. I'm an audiophile before movie lover but only have one room to setup for both. My Yamaha NS-555 front's sound terrific driven by my RX-A2A on two chancel, very wide and deep soundstage. Close your eyes and the speakers disappear and the musicians and singers appear exactly where the mixing engineer indented. But it took me over 10 hours of listening to get the speakers positioned perfectly. 1/4" in any direction, or 1degree of toe in change makes a difference. Speaker position in the number one thing I see/hear wrong in most systems.

[@darinlasater6250]

Great content Gene! I previously followed the typical formulas for seating location and LCR placement and was disappointed in the results. I just kept moving my seats and speaker placement until I found the magic combination. It is amazing how much of a difference it can make. I agree with your recommendation to get good two-channel sound first and build your HT sound around that, starting with a strong matched center channel.

[@jim586]

Hi Gene, I’ve watched many of your videos but this is the first time I’ve been compelled to comment. This is such an interesting topic. For those that are fortunate enough to have a dedicated room it’s an even more interesting one. Common practice/aspirations for dedicated home theatre is for it to look like, well, a theatre or a screening room. It is because of this that your number one solution is spot on! The positioning of the Left and right speakers is so important, they need to be out from the walls, no amount of dsp correction can fix this.That’s not to say your other solutions aren’t important as well. Ha Great channel. Many thanks and keep up the good work.

[@DavidKowalski]

Saying one must choose between good multi-channel and good two-channel audio in the same room is a bit like saying one must choose between speakers that look good and speakers that sound good. It is a false dichotomy -- one that I have most frequently heard from two-channel-only enthusiasts that look down upon those who enjoy home theater as though we are not as sophisticated as they are and can't possibly be enjoying two-channel music properly in a home-theater setting. This bias is confirmed for them by one or more experiences they have had in which they disliked the sound of music played in a home-theater room. I believe your video sufficiently addressed the issues that might have caused their posture.

[@davidbayly4593]

I get brilliant 2 channel music from my Yamaha rx-v6a. Both as strictly front l/r and multi channel up mixing. Depending on what I am listening to and the quality of the recording will determine how I listen to it, and when I am home alone it's often loud and still music from my Yamaha sounds excellent. Movies are equally awesome, the house shakes, dialogue is clear, very happy.

[@gjhunter9326]

This is a difficult topic Gene and kudos for taking it on. IMHO double duty for dedicated HT a 2 channel inevitably is all about priorities and compromises. As you allude to in your video, the optimal acoustic environments for optimal performance are just different. What can be said is that for good enough performance on both, they do not have to be mutually exclusive. At the end of the day, one will end up taking priority over the other. In my first, and most extensive dedicated build in 2003, I optimized for 2 channel audio in regards to listening position (pretty much exactly like yours), acoustic treatment goals and speaker placement. It sounded phenomenal for 2 channel music. It was damped enough but allowed for an excellent balance of live sound with fantastic sound stage and imaging on two channel yet was not overly reverberant for surround sound movie experiences. This was before the days of the discreet channel immersive audio of today. I've also built a dedicated HT only room and it sounds ok for music, but certainly doesn't pass the mustard for critical listening of music. The limiting factors are commonly two fold. Room dimension and projector screen size, but not necessarily just the effect of the screen material. Again, as you mention in the video (and all your excellent videos), to get the best out of most 2 channel speakers, they need to be away from the back and the side walls to "breathe" a little. Of course that is speaker dependent but I would venture to say that most speakers certainly do. So you can't stuff high quality speakers up against the wall and against the side walls, they need to be out in the room, as you have done. Some speakers need more space others. But if you use a projection screen, it has to fit between the speakers with unobstructed sight lines from all seating positions. Unless you have a massively wide room (like your new dedicated theater), that may mean a pretty narrow (e.g. small) screen width. If you sit in the center, you can see the edges without those fronts blocking the sides, but if you are off to one side or the other, the screen will be covered by the speaker. The compromise then, for many, means you must choose between optimal 2 channel performance (speaker size, design and position) or an immersive visual experience, i.e. big screen (sub optimal speaker position, design or size). It bears mentioning that perhaps some of the best 2 channel speakers simply cannot create a satisfying sound pressure level at anywhere near the THX specifications. For example, do you want open baffle or planar or stats to play at 100+ db at 3m without breaking apart in a room with an RT60 of 200-300? Good luck. Many of the best cone inside of cabinets can't do it either. Of course some can thankfully, but it certainly can restrict your choice of speakers. So here we are again with yet another compromise (albeit one that many probably have no problem making with good reason). So, the question really becomes whether the two can co-exist for a "good enough" experience versus "great"? That is simply up to the individual. Die hard audiophiles, you know the ones, with all the cost no object high end equipment prominently on display rather than tucked into an equipment closet, will likely say "no". Those die hard movie guys, who don't spend nearly the same amount of time listening to music as they do watchiing movies, will likely say "yes". The rest of us are somewhere on on the continuum between. There is no right answer. There is no wrong one either. It makes for interesting discussion.

[@LA-db9xj]

Are there Cliff Notes for this comment??

[@gjhunter9326]

@@LA-db9xj yes and no

[@Echo-jg8is]

I have a system that does both audiophile 2 channel and multi channel music coupled with cinema levels and quality for movies.... It can be done...

[@dirtkeepsthefunk]

Yes, indeed, bring back Matthew Poes! Always appreciate his deep understanding of acoustics, and how he communicates the nuisances of audio in an intelligible way. Keep up the great videos and work Gene -- Audioholics is one of only a few places on the web that offers pragmatic information, discussions, videos, reviews, etc. devoid of gobbledygook, snake oil, and pseudoscience.

[@robertkruk1795]

Did you mean nuances?

[@havensmart2678]

Matt will be back soon!

[@MrDanoman812]

Absolutely you can. I built a 1/3 scale version set of the Carver Amazing Loudspeakers using some decent 'late market' drivers and after getting them tuned, the sound is phenomenal. Yes, they are two channel, set off the back wall by 2 1/2 feet and suspended on 2" spikes on an isolating frame. Too much to go into the actual design to type out but, running through a prestage tube type preamp, i'd put them up against infinities in the $5000-$8000 range from the good 'ole mid 90's days. They are nearly transparent acoustically because of their shape and i had to build subs to compensate for the lows as they're only 20" tall. (not including the frames or stands to place them on) You hear every detail and the sounds on excellently recorded tracks seem to just appear from all around you, including some that seem to come from behind you even. They are designed with the drivers I used in a vertically linear pattern and are open paneled in the back so, naturally, i had to use some sound absorption and redirection to get the ambiance i have but, it's SO well worth taking the time and effort needed to get those measurements and make micro adjustments afterward to maximize the space i had to make it all come together. I can honestly say... it's the best i've ever heard, in any home, studio or high end tec/audio store. Even compared to some of their high end speakers like Infinity, Kef, JBL, Polk Audio, Mirage or similar. What i learned is that your listening area or room is EVERYTHING. I spent less than $400 on the drivers themselves and about three times that on the environment they would be sitting in. Money well spent too. Your opinions in your video are exactly mine, agree entirely.

[@hifihometheater]

I love this topic. Thank you. I would like to add that most people think you cannot get a good two channel experience with a surround processor or AVR.

[@troywiggins4318]

Excellent video! I’ve made some updated purchases over the last 3 years with Denon 3600h, a Monolith 7x7 amp and added 2 SVS 2000 but still have my Paradigm studio 100s for the past 20+ yrs for my mains. I’ve been playing with speaker positioning and sub integration on and off for the last year and I think I may have gotten as close to perfect as I can. I have found that my mains were to far apart in our new family room so I brought them in about a foot and keeping them straight not toed in so much. I get great info from your site Gene, it’s rekindled a audio enthusiast passion.

[@peter3728]

agree with all your comments, as a two channel guy first, the only challenge i have found is needing to bring the main speakers farther away from the screen wall into the room as well as closer together which can limit view angles from side seating and overall screen size.

[@MistaP604]

Adding a dedicated 2 ch pre amp (with Ht bypass or passthru) is a great way to get a better 2 ch experience. I use a McIntosh c2600 and Bryston 7b sst monoblocks. For home theater in the same system I’m currently using a flagship YAMAHA A8A. Receivers are never going to be as good as proper separates and dedicated pre amps.

[@jonmason1955]

I achieved movie house theater two channel audio. BTW, excellent advice vid Gene. My speakers are, two two way ancient last century freestanding large Advents, no mounted screen but a large flat screen tv. The screen is centered but the speakers on either side don't face directly into the room.they are adjusted in an askewed 90° from each other. Askewed due to the seating sweet spot. These dinosaur speakers are so phenomenal, I found a subwoofer made my room over saturated with sound. I managed to achieve a faux surround sound. Now, my room is no where as large as yours, but I've been accused of hiding other speakers in the room. My system amply fill the room in al the rightways to enjoy theater AND regular audio.

[@77rommel]

I run a NAD M12 DAC with two M22 amplifiers vertically bi-amped to my Martin Logan Classic ESL-9 accompanied by two SVS SB-2000 Pro subwoofers using the subwoofer output of M12 for my 2ch setup. The M12 then integrates with my Anthem AVM60 for HT and when I run ARC it treats each L&R sub & tower as one speaker. I then have two Monolith 10" subwoofers for dedicated LFE output from AVM60. I love it as the SVS provide plenty of tunability to integrate with towers for 2channel but also don't get left out for HT! Keep up all the great videos Gene!!!

[@charlesking678]

This should be the length of most of your videos. The hour plus length is hard to watch what is basically a zoom call. I like this and I anticipate the majority of your audience will appreciate this shorter most direct and to the point content.

[@Audioholics]

We do at least 2 or 3 short videos per month. However 1hr livestreams are an important part of this channel and we will continue to do them.

[@EddyTeetree]

Gene I love this show from when you were a weird ‘trekker’ behind the home bar. So don’t take offence when I say I have 2 channel home theatre, a simple cheap Denon receiver with vintage JBL’s and a smart tv, I do almost everything wrong according to this instructional (sept maybe speaker placement) and it sounds flipping amazing.

[@johnlane2395]

I have done it with old Tannoy 15 golds in Lancaster cabs hooked up to a Marantz 2238b, the Denon 3600 for the surround, it was due to positioning, it took me about 4 months to get it where it was sonically amazing, I only learned this from watching your vids and trial and error, thanks for your info

[@shivanksarin6199]

I've paired my B&W704S2 with MarantzSR7015 and boy, does it sound amazing!

[@WWeiss-nv5vz]

I love having rear surround speakers for music listening. I dial it in so you can barely hear there is music from the rear but when you mute them there is a big difference. It gives a more enveloping /full sound field. In a live situation music fills the room 360 degrees not only from two sources in front of you. I find even the smallest 5" woofers are enough for the effect. I use JBL 305 Studio Monitors. Yamaha HS5 also works great.

[@UltrafineDeluxe]

I do something similar. I set a 'profile' on my Anthem receiver for music listening in 'all stereo' mode with the center channel off & the rear speakers low enough that they're just barely audible from listening position but still there enough that it expands the sound field. It still sounds great with just the front left & right but adding a bit of the rears really enhances the experience for me. In the earlier days I used to use Pro Logic Music for this sort of thing but 'all stereo' with the rears set low is much more natural sounding & gives a similar effect.

[@davidhorsinyamahasonypione7511]

jbl studio 305 with 75 db of noise ratio are not audiophiles speakers for me

[@WWeiss-nv5vz]

@@UltrafineDeluxe Yes! I thought I was the only one who does this! I think it makes a huge difference that the majority of 2.1 users are missing out on.

[@WWeiss-nv5vz]

@@davidhorsinyamahasonypione7511 Agree, these are not audiophile speakers! They are used only for ambience to add fullness to the sound field, played so low that noise ratio doesn't come into play. I have actually tried this with "proper" audiophile speakers-Paradigm Studio 10's that were $1,000 each and didn't hear much difference at those super low volumes!

[@davidhorsinyamahasonypione7511]

thank you for your opinion

[@sunshine242-l4y]

Gene, I really like your solution for your front stage. I recently tried on wall speakers in the front room to replace my 3 box speakers and realized that I am willing to sacrifice a little bit of that minimal look I was originally going for in the front room for the depth of the sound that I didn't realize how important that was for me, even in movie/tv watching. The sound was 2 dimensional with the onwall and unfortunately, returned the speakers. At this point, I am currently looking at some slim tower speakers in walnut.

[@cravenmoore7778]

Eugene, I'm doing the same. Which ones are you considering and why?

[@sunshine242-l4y]

@@cravenmoore7778 Just received the whardale Linton walnut pair and One polk reserve r600 speaker. Why? I have a listening room with Persona Bs and waiting on my Pienza series 2 so this front room tv setup I am treating as my secondary system. I seem to like a dark and muscular sound with a little bit of liveliness up top. I am willing to sacrifice a bit of dynamics because of that muscular sound. I had a pair of Dynaudio Evoke 20 in the listening room and considered just getting the Dynaudio Evoke 30s since I was familiar with the sound. I also wouldn't mind getting the Elac Vela FS as I had demo the bookshelf But was trying to find something under $2k (new) in a high traffic area of our house. While the warfdale isn't a slim tower, it fits really well with the rest of the furniture in our open floor plan living room and my wife loves the look of it and agrees with the sound. The warfdale definitely isn't lively up top, and isn't giving you gobs of detail effortlessly. But for the hour or two I have have used it so far, it's working out. Just waiting for the other polk r600 to do a side by side comparison (and test out movies like avengers). I will say, for roughly the same price of whardale + stands - $200 current discount vs a pair of the polk R600, the whardale's finish including it stands feels like it should be priced $3500+. I also thought about the the KEF q7/950 as everyone talks how wide the soundstage it creates but I remember demoing the Kef R3 some time ago and thought it was meh for me. So I didn't bother ordering that.

[@eflizotte]

Gene this is very timely. I’ve been very proud of what I’ve built in my room using good components that have been deployed correctly. I feel good about what I have learned so far about timing and tuning. However, I recently have been exploring how to maximize the treatment in my room for best results. I believe I have an overdamped room based on what I understand on the measurements I got in REW. But having yourself and AG go thru how to read what REW is reporting in that regard and how to measure the before and after difference of a well treated room would be very valuable. Perhaps a “blank” room and then measurements after course of treatment (side walls, traps, behind screen, back wall, etc) as well as subjective listening tests to compare with/against the measurement’s findings. Thanks for what you all do!

[@C--A]

You can make a room sound bad by using too much absorption. What percentage of your walls/ceiling have room treatment? It's recommended roughly 30% coverage room treatment. Though it can be less or slightly more depending on the specific room. Also the old recommendation of just absorption isn't the case anymore. The top room acoustician's Anthony Grimani, Peter Aylett etc. Recommend a mixture of both absorption and diffusion scattering.

[@gjhunter9326]

Definitely interested in the room measuring with REW, RT60, etc. Gene!

[@xeniavader]

Surround processors just don't do 2 channel very well. So, get a good DAC that has theater pass-through. I use a benchmark DAC3. For 2 channel, I go streamer to dac to amp. Very short chain. For theater, the DAC goes into pass-through mode. Prepro left and right outs into the DAC analog in which are passed out unchanged to the power amp. Profound difference.

[@markclancy5371]

Definitely the dac is the weak link in an avr for 2 channel.Even the same chip can sound better in a stand alone unit.for 2 channel pure separates is always better!, separate dac ,pre amp and power amp even better with separate psu to each less noise.

[@danielr1615]

My Marantz SR7012 with a separate Marantz MM7025 2 channel amp that powers the Cornwall IV fronts and Klipsch Reference Premier center,surrounds, and the heights works pretty damn good for both Home Theater and 2 channel listening (through the Pure Direct mode). I have found that toeing in the Cornwall's 14 degrees is the best position. I do run my Cornwall's at full range for music but will take your advice and try using the subs for music.

[@billrobertson2437]

The biggest problem that I see is getting the proper seating position for stereo in a home theater. You stereo seating position needs to approximately 1/3 of the distance from the back wall and the speakers 1/3 from the front wall. To do that in a theater, you either have to limit tour seating to 3 or 4 seats, or your listening position will have chairs between it and the speakers. I guess limited seating is acceptable, but in my theater, I have 8 seats in 3 rows with risers. There is no way to get a good stereo listening position. I tried to make the theater dual purpose for years but then finally set up a high end stereo only listening. There is no comparison. The stereo room wins hands down. The other problem for me is that I use a 90" flat screen TV. Having that big flat reflective surface between the speakers kills any hope of good imaging. To make a theater work for stereo listening, you must have an acoustically transparent screen ideally with diffusion behind it. That just doesn't work for me. I am very happy with 2 rooms, but I know everyone can't do that.

[@breezebreeze699]

Great vid... especially touching on room reverb.... upon AH recommendation I also purchased the Audessy app to compliment my x8500 but have not plucked up the guts to use it yet as every 6 months... I'll adjust a setting.. or speaker position or seating position and the difference bought in are like day and night. you know when u have spent your money well when you constantly have your socks blown off years after a purchase.... with these educational videos from professionals we get the most out of our equipment. thank you. Also im very serious about AV sound so I strategically keep the ”mother in law seat” in the shed.

[@breezebreeze699]

Good evening and many thanks for what appears to be a rather exciting message. May I ask, how would one call from the UK? apologies for being a nusence. best wishes.

[@Audioholics]

@@breezebreeze699 Ignore that message. It was a spammer. The winner will be contacted via an authentic audioholics email address.

[@nishalp1747]

Well presented and simple to understand Gene. Thank you for making home theatre and good quality sound easy, irrespective of brand and price point (taking other Audioholics videos into account as well)

[@unknownuser0006]

please do the acoustic measurements with different treatments. Also it would be nice to see more upmixing tests, I believe that you mentioned earlier that you are going to test with 5.1 movies too not just music upmixing

[@oneemotiva4975]

Hi, I completely agree with you, I have a audio theater room, and both work perfectly. I first set up as an 2 channels. Then I starting adding a 7.4.4 the major work was placing the right and left speakers first, Took some time to set up but after setup worked fantastic as audio 2 channels and then as the 7.4.4.

[@bigreg1001]

Gene, you are right. I have had my system setup this way for years with the speakers more than 3ft from the back wall. This will improve the imagining for all of the speakers. In my opinion we should have the goal of not hearing any speaker in your system as a point in space they should form a single sound field no matter witch speaker are being used 5.1 or stereo etc..

[@nonametofame]

You can get a "good" experience, but not a great one. Just too many compromises, imo. But yes to your question, please do a video on room decay time and reverberations.

[@Echo-jg8is]

You can get audiophile 2 channel music in HC... Just design it right in the first place...

[@nonametofame]

@@Echo-jg8is sure, but with compromise. For HT, I prefer no speakers visible, behind an AT screen, but that poses challenges to separation of the L and R speakers. Also, just using an AT screen will affect the top end. I prefer not to even use grills with my speakers. And I want to see my speakers when listening to music (why hide that gorgeous gloss finish?) But that gloss will be worse for reflections from the projector. This is just one example. My other issue is the liveliness of the room, which Gene covered. I also love using EQ for HT, but using too much EQ sounds too unnatural to me. Even with full passive room treatments, you can't achieve perfection without some EQ. I solve these compromises by just having a secondary room for music. But I know that's not possible for many.

[@Echo-jg8is]

@@nonametofame most problems you have can be overcome, systems that can run with no digital room correction or DSP for example...

[@nonametofame]

@@Echo-jg8is I have 5 subs in my HT, to provide even coverage and a flatter frequency with lots of headroom. If ithere's a simple way to time align and calibrate all those subs as one without DSP or correction, please let me know.

[@Echo-jg8is]

@@nonametofame Your correct on the Subwoofers, but I was referring more to the Frankenstien topology used in most HC systems... Typically towers flanking a small centre speaker with even smaller rears and in wall for heights all fed via a AVR...This gives you a different tone, resistance, frequency response, soundstage, efficiency and cosmetics everywhere! ... Only so mush DSP can do as the main damage is done... Bad tonality and fragmented soundstage ...My subwoofers do use DSP but only downwind from the preamp via MINIDSP.

[@bkline3147]

I use my AVR Zone 2 out for my 2 channel music. My HT is setup as 7.4.6, but I wanted a separate setup just for 2ch music and I didn't have an extra room for it. Since all of my source content is hooked to my AVR (Denon 6700h), I can use both systems and A/B compare different sources and content. My Zone 2 includes a tube amp and a little more musically inclined speakers that are located in between the HT L&R speakers (more distance from side walls). This was a fun experiment and my 2ch music sounds really good for me. I would love for Audioholics to cover this kind of setup (Zone 2 use). Also, I saved money by not having to buy additional sources (phono, streamer, etc.) and I use my existing 4 HT subwoofers via the MiniDSP input 2. I also like that I can watch anything (sports, nature, etc.) on my Main Zone (muted) while I also listen to music. Note: If I use the All Zone Stereo function and mute the Main Zone, I can adjust the AVR to Reference, Flat, L&R Bypass, or Off settings for the 2ch setup and it makes a huge difference (helpful hack).

[@Pohgrey]

I agree! I think I have great 2 channel audio in my living room home theater. Good speakers and proper placement can go a long way by themselves! I haven't done any treatments yet, but I do correct my bass below the Schroeder frequency and have a friendly enough room that I can achieve a very linear response, with a li'l bump in the bass of course! I agree room treatments, applied based on good information, is the way to get to the next level.

[@sidvicious3129]

Please go more into this as two channel sound is often overlooked in home theater. Gene if you don’t mind can you show us your whole theater room and have a special of how you got to where you did. A basic thought process of the actual components, treatments, cables, acoustic treatments and sound measurements. Your thought on a wide room vs an elongated one.

[@musicman8270]

Being an audiophile who also loves HT I can tell you it can be done. Just use audiophile grade equipment for you left-right gear. What I did for my 7.2.4 system. Brands I love for audio I use for Ht. I have basically a 2.2 audio system right in the middle of my system . I can separate it with something called "home theater bypass". There are compromises but they are minor.

[@rlwings]

You can if you buy a Marantz AVR. They're Warm and musically focused.. Most others are too bright and colored which is more appropriate for movie excitement, ie. Denon's, Yamaha's, Onkyo's, etc.

[@scottmccaul9911]

Gene, great informative video as always. I agree with everything you have said and would like to add something that I have found. Make sure an emphasis is placed on proper amp/speaker matching, especially with the Front L+R. Many AV receivers are more than capable at the processing part but seem to lack a bit in their amp section. I use a separate amp for my front 2 speakers and the receiver for the rest. I may even get a separate amp for my rear speakers and just use the receiver for my 4 height speakers. Thanks again!!

[@LA-db9xj]

"Mother-in-law seats". Lol! I'm gonna use that one Gene. 🤣

[@markwilson0077]

One can Definitely achieve excellent 2 channel stereo and amazing HT with the approach you've said here. I've done just that, except I've got diffuser panels behind the L & R at over 3ft from front wall, 4 ft from side walls. Centre is below the 100" Screen, with 6" frame from wall and acoustic absorption behind the screen. Dual independent 12" Subs, dialed in and seemlessly integrated. The 500MS RTA REW time in my HT offers an incredible soundstage and a fully immersive 5.2.4 HT experience, with a cohesive soundfield. You've hit the nail on the head here Gene! Audioholics for real!

[@CAV3MAN227]

I am happy with my 5.2.2 setup while watching movies. But when I want to listen to just music, I'll change the receiver from an Atmos setting to a stereo setting and I loose bass. 5 channel stereo bass sounds good but for some reason 2 channel stereo bass is lacking. TX-NR676 receiver. Klipsch R-820F for left and right channels. Klipsch R-34C center. Klipsch R-51M surround. Klipsch RS-35 used for height channels. Good video and thanks for the tips Gene.

[@kenbbaker]

Since I’ve had great stereo sound on 20w/ch and just reasonable placement…. And my HT receivers have been 100w/channel or more and actually a lot more in 2 channel mode - I am not short on good clean watts, even into 4 ohms if needed And… I certainly love it in 2.1 - bass unlimited compared to just a stereo pair - organ, synth, room sound from the venue… doors closing & air pressure changes… trains rumbling by

[@jeremyj.]

Good day eh 🇨🇦! Great list! We’re still stuck in our igloos up here. So there’s been lots of time to watch movies and listen to our 8 tracks! May as well keep our stick on the ice and set them up correctly!

[@JonathanDFielding]

Yes please show us how to measure the RT60. Yes, 2ch in a home theater can be great. I've got the RBH SVTRs and they're amazing 2 ch. I'm still working on getting then FIR filter biamped.

[@johnwalker4221]

Excellent video as always, Gene! Thanks! I have very good 2-channel audio in my 7.1 theater system using mid-fi+ equipment. Sound treatment in the room is minimal. The positioning of the front left and right channels (i.e. "mains") was the key to creating a wide, realistic sound stage with some depth and a "phantom" center channel. As you have stated many times, I found the surround sound became far more realistic and had better "life" once I got the 2 channel sound established. Keep up the great work; I will keep listening!

[@Justwantahover]

9:16 If there is a hole in the middle, try towing your speakers in a bit. That's what I did and I couldn't believe the difference. It was like I connected a center speaker.

[@jb.2986]

Yes. We get great two channel sound from our 7.2.6 home theater. A simple SPL meter was also very helpful to achieve a “two in one” system. Audiophiles hate change and when I encounter a two channel purist I can usually win them over by showing them how 2 channel and immersive audio can be accomplished in one system with vids like yours or of course a visit to our home for a listening session. Thanks for addressing this topic GD. 👍

[@BeardedDarin]

Hell yeah rocking the Ashton Origin mic as well. I love it. Great video.

[@cruzingrsx4484]

Hi Gene, I was using an Onkyo TX SR705 AV-receiver 100 watts x 2 and I just purchased a Marantz PM8006 70 watts x 2 intergraded amp. When listening to 2 channel music that Marantz sound much better than my Onkyo. The better your power supply the better the sound quality correct, Gene?✌🏼

[@jeremiahglass8262]

Great video…I have a couple 2 channel systems in my home, and a dedicated home theater. The 2 channel systems sound amazing…. But the dedicated home theater just simply blows most people away when we do the “Pepsi Challenge”.. The “Sound Proofing” is clearly key to this result..

[@nickgiordano6518]

Thanks G I gave up on 2 ch in my theater I use the surround mode and get the vocals to come thru the center and in my opinion it sounds better than any 2 ch , I feel 2 ch going thru the trouble of making a halo graphic sound is a waste of time might as well have a really nice center with good power adel sounds amazing in mono on my center

[@mikeharkins2985]

If you don't have a large house, you will not be able to incorporate a home theater room in your house. Compromise is needed. I have always had this situation, but since we downsized, there is even less real estate to deal with. The good news is that my new home has an irregularly shaped room and better acoustics than my old room which was much larger but quite echoic in character. Now, I get a much more realistic soundstage since the echos are tamed considerably. But it's not too dead for 2-channel stereo sound. The only possible flaw is that my couch is near the rear wall, but I was able to space it out so that listener heads are at least a foot or two away from the wall. The room is about 12.5 feet in depth, and this seems to work well without bass emphasis due to the wall effect.

[@josephfranzen5626]

I’ve been able to achieve excellent 11 channel performance as well as two channel, I gained and still continue to learn from other Audioholics users as well as your outstanding content, that mixed with trial and error and bass traps as well as 2D and 3D diffusion, REW, MultiEQ-X and aMiniDSP HD for my mains and another one for my four subs has allowed me to seamlessly switch from a native Atmos source to two channel music and not lose any fidelity or accuracy.

[@dragonstone6594]

I'm currently building my Atmos / Stereo setup in my living room with a Marantz Cinema 50 and a 75" TV. I don't plan to add any amps, dacs, streamers or any of that. I think that's just not necessary. If later on I'll need more power or channels I'll upgrade to Cinema 30.

[@mondoenterprises6710]

I'm good with my 2 channel plus Home Theater set up.

[@kibyras]

Yes I get a very good 2ch sound it feels like centre channel is on as well too Arendal 1723 towers

[@mrboat580]

Die-hard two-channel user here and I fully advocate the use of AVR for 2-channel amplification, even if just for that. 2-channel with subs is a whole other level of hi-fi. Pretty much a necessity with today's more accurate and neutral (often revealing) speakers. Ends up being the 'breath' of the bottom end to my music systems. I can get away with just using LR because they have 12" woofers and reach below 40hz so it is still a satisfactory listening experience but still prefer it with *complete* bass management and subs.

[@6768scat]

You can absolutely get killer 2 ch music in a dedicated theater !!! I have it in mine . I also use tower speakers for the same reason as you Gene , and when I ran all my room correction , I set up preset 2 on my Denon receiver for 2ch w/3 subs and it sounds amazing . When people come over they constantly get up and run to the center ch speaker because it sounds like its playing , they think I'm switching it back on and by the 3-4 demo track ask me to put down the remote because they are so convinced I am playing tricks on them !!!

[@trevorparmer5231]

Excellent info as always and presented in an easily understood manner. I am very pleased with 2CH playback in my HT. The only area where my experience differs is 2CH vs. 2.2CH. Maybe its placebo but I sweat my system sounds better in 2CH using my Ares II DAC and no room correction with only my LR channels playing. When I switch to 2.2CH, and my frequency response curves indicate an excellent blending of my subs with my speakers, a digitized signal and ARC (AVM 70) engaged I lose soundstage. My LR channels can play appreciably low so I have no complaints. Also, I can’t get super sub to sound good….

[@davidt8438]

I’ve heard you say it a hundred times but I just can’t help but to laugh each time I hear you say “The mother in law seat”. It’s so true that the mother in law wouldn’t know the difference.

[@myhomeaudio8751]

I want to learn about rt60 decay time

[@doublet147]

Great video as always. I had decent 2 ch until I really focused on main & sub integration. Now it really shines. I'd like to see more on the subject of decay time (measuring, etc.). I'm a newb in that area.

[@alexandergilbert6490]

I love your stuff Gene and I will say Yes I have a great tow-Chanel audio Image but I will say one thing I always say to people you should always get good tow-channel audio first and match it with a really good matching centre channel and if you have a good tow-channel audio With a properly placed LCR set up you shouldn’t even know you have a centre channel

[@mikeschramm]

Acoustic treatment with REW video, please!

[@alexortner2982]

What if you have a large glass screen TV between your speakers? Would it make sense to put absorber/reflectors between the left and right speakers and the screen? If the left and right speakers are forward of the screen how much would that help?

[@aussierob7177]

Hello Gene, by using cross-talk cancellation of my 2 front left and right speakers, i can achieve a three dimensional sound stage with musical instruments and other sound sources spread out in a large arc in front of me ranging from 45 to 90 degrees. Sound images exist to the left and right, extending well beyond the limits of the loudspeakers and, occasionally , all the way to the extreme left and right. I am able to perceive a sonic stage depth of 10 to 20 feet with sound images clearly floating behind and, from time to time, in front of the loudspeakers. I can actually turn my head and "look" at the sound images which seem to stay put in space. The more speakers you use, the worse is the sound. This is because both ears hear the sound from all the speakers, If you have 7 speakers you get 14 sound arrivals. This confuses the ear-brain mechanism.

[@mikedinno8413]

Stereo, Direct, or Pure Direct?

[@harisjaved1379]

Great video Gene! Yes 2 channel can be tricky. It’s a balance of speaker placement, room, reflections, and sub integration. Usually sub integration was the hardest for me. I resolved this issue with anthem integrated with ARC, but still have nulls in the room. I am planning to get another subwoofer soon.

[@michael-4k4000]

Gene is the best on earth

[@hermannmaischatz2695]

Nice one Gene 👍 👌 👏 I go even one up on that and time align the system to 432hz the original musical instrument tuning frequency to eliminate all the acoustic noise out of the system, to an accuracy within 3mm , with a bit of skill. That totally creates the emotional bond with the person and the music . That's scary exiting stuff.

[@AudioGearhead]

I setup my 2ch first for great stereo sound and then calibrate my surround sound. The Yamaha RX-A1080 has the "front" setting that leaves my La Scala's flat and EQs all of the other speakers, complementing the La Scala's.

[@patrickdougherty4297]

Great information. Yes, I would love to see a video describing how you conduct the measurements.

[@davidhorsinyamahasonypione7511]

yes we can my home cinema is yamaha ax 3200 with 0.008 per cent of dht so it s an audiophil system you can listen on stereo mode. you can if you have a good amplifier i think. on the smallest ones i dont think they are audiophils thanks

[@vedrantasovac1929]

Another way to do it is use studio monitors for your home theater speaker. 2 channel audio will sound amazing since the setup will be exactly the same for either or. Movies are made on them anyway so it's the only way to get true lossless...

[@atk1da]

I've a great two channel. A nice pair of kef 1q5... up front, I do use a sub...to help with lower bass...but really it is set at just the right volume that it blends perfectly. The depth...and imaging I hear are what I've been looking for. Sure My room could use some treatment...with the carpet...furniture. drop ceiling, the sound is really good. For my tired ears. The other side of the same room, houses the tube gear...and man great sound from both sides. It all depends on what and where I listen.

[@alexmferraz]

Excellent video . I've been waiting for a video like this for ages . Congrats Gene !!!

[@DeadpoolTesla]

The final measure of the RT60 is not done since i treated my cinema, but i assume that it's below 0.3. But for me the Two-Channel Audio is still great. OK - maybe i don't get ALL out of the performance of my Klipsch RF-7 III, but i'm totally happy with the sound. Especially in "Cinema-Mode", because the center is also a RF-7 III. 😜 And the room still has enough "liveness", that even with stereomusic it sounds like all other speakers are working.

[@C--A]

My small living room home cinema is acoustically room treated, apart from bass traps as it's a living room with limited space. Music sounds better than before the room was acoustically treated. But I did use absorption panels with front scattering plates. Gives a good balance between absorption and scattering. Plus a couple of GIK hybrid PolyFusors, again some absorption plus they also diffuse. I love movies but also love my music. So wanted to strike a good balance for my acoustic room treatment. Got 11 wall panels in total, just 2 more panels to finish it off.

[@markd4292]

Thanks Jean! I am still stuck on if I want a 5.1 or just a simple 2 ch system for music AND film. I just don't have googles amount of space to liter the room with surrounds, subs etc, so I'm hoping with a nice pair of Martin Logan 60xti's that will be enough, well maybe a center with that too. I just Hope the 60xti aren't too tall! They are 48" and drop ceiling is 80". It'll be along the long wall because the Martin's are a wide disbursement speaker and it'll probably do best along the long wall given the nearest side wall is 7' away. But if I go along the short wall I will have to do some room treatments or get a horn speaker/narrow disbursement speaker - which is fine by me because I dig horns too. Thanks.

[@joes3800]

My situation and living room create a situation where I have to place a long row of seats (a long sectional couch) against the back wall. Imaging was impossible initially. But I placed two large acoustic absorbers narrowly apart behind and on either side of the MLP and convinced my wife to pull the couch a little over 1 foot away from the back wall. It's not ideal, but now I have imaging, including a locked-in phantom center and a wide sound stage.

[@alfredoggy]

Good vid. Yes, please produce a video with more in depth details on how to achieve good 2-channel audio from HT setup.

[@mattgiunt]

Spent a weekend with the Masters set and rational speaker placement web site with bob Robbins and once I locked my front two speakers into place the rest of my 7.2.2 theater speakers were easy to self calibrate. Never heard home theater sound like this and if I want two channel I just switch over to pure direct.

[@Novilicious]

I do this with dual REL 510’s over high-level and my front LCRs to full range. There are many ways though!!! I only have a basic 5.1 setup

[@NathanOakley1980]

3:33 totally agree, most centre speakers are terrible, why can’t centres all be like the left and right.

[@MrWookie1981]

We does it need to be different from the left and right? Just buy three of the same speaker.

[@SwirlingDragonMist]

I think of the question in terms of the electronics, and I think there may be something to there being fewer output transistors per channel in a home theater receiver.

[@seantong6105]

I have my speakers flush for home cinema and have another pair of speaker stands that I bring out further into the room to put the front speakers on when listening to 2 channel.

[@Guiltless765]

I'm running 6-15" Cerwin Vega's in 2ch. 3 amps of course but man it's a beast all around. 🤘🏻🥃

[@jonallard]

Great video and content as usual thank you! I’d really like to get more detailed stuff regarding the acoustics, especially for multi purpose room. Get both stereo and HT nailed isn’t that simple, well to me it isn’t! 😉 keep it coming Gene! 👊🏼

[@galzohar]

Would love to see how to put together the measurement results with the desired room treatments. The information on the web for this topic is all over the place. Be it for reverberation times or for bass.

[@Benvos]

The mother in law seat… 😂. Definitely interested in a video on reverb time for good 2 channel audio.

[@CoreRye]

Lyngdorf mp-60 is top av processor and does a pretty good job with stereo. Certainly good enough for me to sell my Linn Akurate 2 channel kit.

[@Khalid-dd9ln]

Thank you, gene short video with a lot of useful info. Regarding the screen If you use Moiré-free acoustically transparent screen, it will be less problem you will need far less space about an inch.

[@osirismarbles5177]

I'm on the opposite end...getting good home theater sound from a 2 channel system. I'm happy with my 2.2 channel system :).

[@C--A]

Just enjoying what you have got. Sitting back enjoying the movie or music 🎬🎶

[@jeremyaguilar3805]

Is it possible to have a 2 channel system with active subs plugged into the 2 channel preamp then add a HT AV receiver thru a HT bypass? Will the subs need to be disconnected from the 2 channel preamp and connected to the HT receiver?

[@clivewilliams9460]

Yeah, I can relate not everyone have the space. I guess I am lucky to have a 2 channel dedicated room built from scratch. I have friends with limited space. They ended up putting their TV with a Sound-bar and Sub-woofer in their bedroom just to keep those reflect surfaces out of the 2 channel room. I guess you can have some sort of acoustic cover when movies are not being viewed. The other guys will roll up the big screen. Everyone, Enjoy The Music.

[@404010ful]

As for dealing with two speakers for it to give that sound the position ing should make them dis appear . Have the sound blend in the center like if there is a center going. Subwoofers should intergrate evenly like you said. They to should disapear like the bass is coming from your mains . The subs are doing it yes but its how it should blend in right They shouldn't be over powering your main floor stands . Anyway good tips on what you can do.

[@paulkerr9128]

Thanks Gene, very informative as usual. I am wondering what your thoughts are on AVRs generally for two channel music. Most "audiophiles" have very low opinions of AVRs for two channel and recommend dedicated two channel receivers or separates for serious two channel. In your opinion, are there any AVRs that can run with dedicated two channel systems in terms of sound quality or are they too compromised being focused on multi channel surround for TV/Movies?

[@jamegumb7298]

Excessive. If you want to use 2 amps, 1 for each speaker, go for it. I myself use 1 stereo amp for low end one stereo amp for high end, fed into the amps by just 1 stereo AV receiver. Try both, see what works. Using 2 full AV receivers, seems too much. But hey, I have seen crazier stuff.