You dislike fighting games for the wrong reasons

[@MougliFGC]

Just in case this wasn't clear: this video is not meant to convince you to like or even try fighting games. It merely aims to make you think about what is it that you really like or dislike about them. If any point of the video makes you go "nope, that's definitely not for me", that's completely okay :)

[@DarkElkin1]

Hi, as someone looking to get into fighting games, I'm really looking forward to your series. Hberes hoping ti see more.

[@DarkElkin1]

Also, do you have a discord server?

[@MougliFGC]

@@DarkElkin1 I do not have my own server at the moment, I just hang out in Sam's server (link in the video description)

[@alyasVictorio]

This video deserves more recognition specially for the gamers from both FGC and other game genre communities. Good content, dude. 😉

[@mistake1197]

me who sucks at performing even basic imputs.

[@HimePenguin]

A big part I think is simply understanding the game. In many fighting games, especially if you're new to them, you often don't even understand what you did wrong when you lost. Why didn't that attack land? Why wouldn't I block that attack? How could he get out of my combo, but I couldn't? And it can even turn around the other way. You won. But you don't understand what you did differently from last time. Also the classic. For someone to get that super cool 50+ perfect combo win, someone else had to eat that.

[@MougliFGC]

Yes, I plan on approaching that topic :)

[@antonsimmons8519]

The true fighting game skill floor isn't what people really think it is. Teaching a new player a hadouken is way more intuitive than teaching that same player that the heavy kick and heavy punch each have their own damage/range/recovery differences, and even stuff like that really is the most basic, because they do wanna know which button does what, etc. It isn't that fighting games have MORE information, because generally, they actually don't. It's the way it's being presented. Even in games with single-button specials, all the other stuff is there(unless you're Fantasy Strike, which died for a reason...), and it's ALL front-loaded. Presentation of info in fighting games is either done little or not at all, or in a long series of boring tutorials most players will NOT complete. Most players just want to be able to hop in and play, which is honestly one reason why Tekken does so well. I'm not saying it's a mashy series, Tekken fans, so don't get rabid, I'm just saying the way the combo system works allows two brand new players to both mash and see cool shit happen. When you mash in anime fighters and other 2d motion fighters? You just kinda throw a lot of jabs and sweeps.

[@MougliFGC]

Presentation of information is literally the topic of my next video :)

[@antonsimmons8519]

@@MougliFGC I like it. It's definitely one of the most important things. I think we're in the early stages of a fighting game renaissance, and now is the time to get the changes made.

[@goranisacson2502]

Can you elaborate on this? I think I'm too deep in fighting games to grasp your points, because "mash buttons and see jabs and sweeps" is to my eyes exactly what you do in Tekken as well- with possibly the exception of the capoeira people- and I don't see much of a difference between an anime fighter and a Tekken in this instance? Is it that Tekken just has longer combos that consist of just pressing the face buttons as oppossed to a 2D game using directional inputs for the cool stuff?

[@antonsimmons8519]

@@goranisacson2502 The longest combos I've seen in fighting games are BY FAR in anime games, not Tekken. Tekken's standard of ~8-10 hits is pretty tame overall. Mashing in Tekken tends to randomly produce combos, wherein mashing in 2d fighters rarely results in anything other than a jab or sweep. At any rate, mashing stops working right after rookie ranks, no matter which game it is.

[@Grimreaperedge]

@@antonsimmons8519 cough street fighter 5 sagat,guile and other characters can sometimes be opressive where there playstyle is spamming the same move over and over again. At higher ranks they do that and more. So every fighting game at a high or low people can spam and will abuse the same frame knowing you cant do much about it

[@Quinn2win]

My two cents as someone who has bounced off the genre multiple times: - The reason the skill floor is more daunting in fighting games than it is in learning to play guitar is because you can play the guitar on your own. You are dictating the whole experience. You can get good at guitar without getting into dozens of guitar battles with strangers where each one declares a winner and a loser. Reaching the skill floor for a fighting games means fighting other people and losing, over and over and over. It's demoralizing and exhausting. - You make an excellent point that the 'difficulty' in a fighting game just comes down to the skill gap between you and your opponent. Unfortunately, fighting games are a narrow niche with a loyal fanbase and a lot of transferable skills. Last time I tried to play Guilty Gear Strive online as a novice, there was literally nobody online below the highest level of the tower. 90% of the playerbase is people who love fighting games and have been playing them for years, so as someone trying to enjoy them casually I wander into versus mode, try to find someone at my skill level, fail, and fight ultra gods for an hour without winning a single game. Again, demoralizing and exhausting. - I don't even know what the solution to these problems is! How do I get a foot in the door when everyone inside has years of experience? That skill gap discourages new players, which in turn reinforces the gap because there aren't enough new players coming in. It's a vicious cycle, and I don't know how to fix it.

[@MougliFGC]

Good points. You should watch my second video that talks a bit about some of this ;)

[@leandronc]

I think it's all about this you said: "[With guitar] You are dictating the whole experience". I want to practice a scale, I do it. I set the exact tempo I'm comfortable with. Then I choose a manageable song to learn, break it into parts, etc. With fighting games, all this is out of your control. You don't get to choose what character you're facing, what playstyle the opponent will use, etc. You're sharing control of the experience. Even if you're not easily demoralized by losses, it can be exhausting because it's difficult to parse everything at once.

[@MougliFGC]

@@soundrogue4472 I said memorising frame data not part of the skill floor.

[@irondragonmaiden]

I mean, I think the issue is that a lot of people think the versus is the most important part of fighting games. It's the most fun when you are experienced, but you can also have a lot of fun in story mode or just playing against the CPU. I usually don't play versus until I get comfortable with my skills, but I also find playing against the CPU fun.

[@banjo9158]

Well, the solution is to have more players, with a limited amount, the skill gap will always be huge and will always be intimidating to new people, that seens kinda of an obvious solution, but how to increase players numbers? well, make it more acessible, most fighting games are already in most plataforms, so, the only way to make it more acessible, is being cheaper, or better yet, free to play. i know people doesn't like that solution, but far more people are willing to try a game if it's free. and they might stick around.

[@MagerBlutooth]

I've found that PVP is one of the biggest turnoffs to me when it comes to any genre in gaming, whether playing against strangers or friends. I can spend dozens of hours attempting to take on a difficult challenge through something like Gungeon or Monster Train, where the feeling that comes from overcoming the challenge is based around surpassing an unchanging skill threshold. By contrast, playing against other players pits you against a constantly evolving metric that only lets you gauge your skill relative to who you're facing. I get little extrinsic motivation from PVP games, which discourages me from sticking with them for much time. The fighters I've played the longest would be Smash and BlazBlue., both of which have single player modes that I played almost exclusively. I'd rather my skill get a letter grade than know what percentile I'm in.

[@charlesqbanks]

I totally agree. We'll said. I've never been able to verbalize why I dislike the fighting game genre as well you did there. Good job.

[@MagerBlutooth]

@@charlesqbanks Cheers!

[@versatilelord8893]

This is something that I’ve always disliked about multiplayer games in general But in the case of fighting games it’s a little different for me since there’s a certain thrill in matches either in real opponents or just fighting the cpu. I love the genre not for competitive reasons (I suck for a lack of a better word lol) but for the moment to moment gameplay, interesting atmosphere, compelling characters, and lore/story. And the very best fighting games usually have all of these in spades

[@3DMegaGamer]

The main thing that happens for a beginner is that they go online, get completely demolished by people who know basic neutral and pressure and then get up because they feel very overwhelmed by it all. The main problem I think beginners have is just not knowing at all of concepts crucial in fighting games beyond how to combo and lack of teaching tools that aren't player made guides

[@MougliFGC]

Yes, I'm planning on talking about it in a future video. It's getting better though: Strive has a command list that's quite useful, and SF6 looks like it'll try to have good tutorias and pre-mad training setups.

[@antonsimmons8519]

So many games really nail their tutorials, namely adventure games and rpgs. I think perhaps the biggest problem may be that fighting games just toss you right into the ring after about 5 minutes of training and go "well, there's a practice room, some combo trials with no pointers and a movelist you may or may not be able to read. good luck, kid!" No wonder people hop online with just a combo and a couple cheesy tricks, win maybe a single round and then get mollywhopped for a set before never touching the game again.

[@Sonnance]

On the note about focusing on how far you are from “pro level play,” I think a part of that is that Fighting Games can feel really restrictive (and as a result, unfun) until you’re at least competent. Very few feel natural to just pick up and play. As you mention, the skill floor is higher than most genres. Fighting Games just aren’t intuitive to control for anyone coming from other genres. I think that’s why Smash is more popular casually, despite still having an incredibly high skill ceiling. Beyond even the simpler inputs, the inputs just make sense intuitively to people familiar with general game controls. Want to attack up? Press up and attack (up tilt.) Want to attack up harder? Press it harder (up smash.) Stuff like that makes it easier than most Fighting Games to pick up, and in turn makes it easier to start having fun enough to enjoy the journey towards the skill ceiling.

[@MougliFGC]

That's a great point!

[@laszloneumann500]

Spot on I disliked fgighting games because when i was a kid i had mortal kombat where combos literally make no sense Played Soulcalibur after and it was so much better, everything clicked( I still think MK is kinda whack)

[@yeen.7209]

honestly, i despise platform fighters like smash and roa because, to me, it looks like everything is happening by pure chance. got a combo at x percent that lead to me inevitably dying? yeah the game just worked out for you and i'm screaming about why everything lined up perfectly for that situation to happen right then and there. regular 2d fighters like guilty gear are easier for my head to comprehend without weirdness, though

[@shinigamimiroku3723]

For me, what irritates me is how I can feel like I'm putting in the right directions on the D-pad/stick, the game (regardless of which one it is) will always register an extra direction, and that single "wrong" imput is enough to prevent a combo from working.

[@Ecliptor.]

Yeah that's my biggest gripe with controllers nowadays. They still have terrible d-pads, I don't even know how they don't do anything about them and still keep pumping up the prices. I think the best d-pad I remember is the good ol dualshock 2, from ps2, the rest are dogshit.

[@shinigamimiroku3723]

@nick This is a problem for me even on arcade machines...

[@Yourblackbestfriend]

I always use a sn30 pro it’s the best dpad I know of and it’s nice on the old wallet.

[@Flounderboy15]

I had the opposite journey than you did. I was really into fighting games when I was younger because I had friends and family who I could play with. I had that sense of "micro-wins" and learning what works. Fighting games always felt like multiplayer games to me, so once that in-person setting went away, I became more of a casual spectator. That said, I still enjoy single-player games that have fighting game mechanics (like Speed Brawl, River City Girls, F.I.S.T., or Guacamelle)

[@duelme1234]

Really enjoyed this video. I particularly like how you acknowledged the other side instead of just saying they are wrong. I get that fg content creators will approach things from a fgc perspective, but sometimes it gets in the way of having a deeper and more holistic discussion. Great work and keep it up.

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks! And yeah, trying to have a fresh perspective on this.

[@HELLRAISER02]

Yo someone else who notices the many similarities between FGs n martial arts? YEEEEEE

[@crinsombone5380]

Grew up on both Still bad at both

[@HELLRAISER02]

@@crinsombone5380 it happens, youll get there

[@darksiders2002]

Martial arts have better hurt and hitboxes.

[@HELLRAISER02]

@@darksiders2002 they do be more accurate to the visuals

[@drethemage9559]

Yo someone else who notices the many similarities between FPS n shooting a gun? YEEEEEE

[@BourneFighting]

As a fellow martial artist, Ive always preached the similarities with fighting games. Besides consistent execution requiring training, you have to measure distance, break up your rhythm to mess up the opponents timing, and think 3 moves ahead. Becoming somewhat competitive in Street Fighter fed my fighting spirit and inspired me to train myself again. I love the competition and learning from my defeats. Great video sir.

[@Imanifestchaos]

actually same I quit training because of depression but I ended up discovering FGs because of it. The transition is actually really smooth depending on which sub genre you got into. Now i am back to self training and practicing drills because of FGs

[@antonsimmons8519]

Funny thing about the connection to martial arts: lazy fighters, just like lazy gamers, will blame ANYTHING for their failure to win, so long as the one thing never blamed is themselves for being lazy.

[@Imanifestchaos]

@@antonsimmons8519 another thing is you can go unga bunga in sparring you'll get what on early but enough unga and those with less stamina and training gets gassed

[@antonsimmons8519]

@@lanceknightmare lmao your mentality is that every complaint is legit. scrub.

[@Auron3991]

I'd agree that RTS usually has a lower skill floor, but that isn't the issue. The difference is player feedback mechanisms. In a strategy game, there is enough time and immediately available information someone can understand why something didn't work within the match itself. Fighting games, on the other hand, have situations like not inputting quite fast enough changing the outcome or an attack having a weird disjoint on its hitbox where it's difficult to ascertain what exactly happened in a controlled environment with a cooperative second person, let alone in the midst of an actual match.

[@ShadowNinjaMaster93]

I actually disagree here. Fighting games are actually fantastic at showing you what is hitting you, and even with just a little mentoring you realize it's a pattern of some kind. From there its a simple matter of problem solving. Asking yourself simple question like "Why did my opponent do that? Where did they do that? What was I doing when they did that?" goes a long way to build competency. The only time I'd say this isn't true is in cases like fuzzy guard breaks, when attacks that look like they missed actually hits you.

[@Auron3991]

@@ShadowNinjaMaster93 That's not exactly the point I was trying to make. Let's take MvC 3 Zero's Ryuenjin. Now, I make no bones that I'm bad at fighting games, but even I know a well-timed Ryuenjin should be able to counter an aerial given its decent horizontal reach and vertical hitbox above the character. The issue isn't the times I screw it up. It isn't the times I misread and I obviously don't pull it off in time. It's the times I pull it off, but am just a couple of frames too slow. I used the right attack, I inputted it correctly, but I was less than human reaction time slower, so it didn't work. That can't be read in a match. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say very few casual players are watching replays with hitbox data to figure out why what should work, didn't. And, while that specific instance is a rare case particular to me (I don't play a lot of other Zero players), I've had opponents more skilled than me wonder how things I was doing were happening across several titles, so it isn't unique and it's obviously more common with some attacks.

[@Korinengamecorp]

Great video. I also think that what's seem to be the main factor of people not trying fighting game is mostly because of the perception that fighting game are impossible to get into in the first place. The FGC itself is guilty of that, which is kind of frustrating, I only really see sajam making several videos trying to break that narrative. Also, I'll steal that board game analogy if you don't mind, it's great ;) (Et ouai, c'est l'enfer de vivre en France et de ne pas trouver de gens pour jouer à des jeux dont la population est trop basse)

[@MougliFGC]

Haha, go ahead and steal that analogy :) And yeah, Sajam's videos are pretty good, will remember to shout them out in the future.

[@corn2454]

I'm someone who has been trying to get into the genre since 2018 and this is a great video BTW. I kinda wanna toss out a couple things since I have a unique experience with the genre due to some disabilities I have. Firstly, despite what I've tried, I kind of doubt I've even really reached the skill floor in the genre and it's part of the reason things have felt so crushing, I can't find a win satisfying when I don't get why it happened and a loss feels crushing when I can't tell what I did wrong. This issue is exacerbated by the fact that I can deal with extreme amounts of overstimulation, and plenty of these games push me to a point where I can barely tell what's happening, if I can see what's happening at all, I even had a game I clicked with ruined by its particles preventing me from being able to tell what moves my opponents were using in blockstrings so I had no hope to try and read a mixup. Any time anyone got hit you might as well of turned the screen pure white and muted the audio for how well my mind could process said information. I primarily wanted to add this since it feels there's a genuine issue with accessibility in the genre, even outside of motor and executional requirements, and I think it's the biggest thing that's kind of hampered a genre I know I could enjoy a lot without it.

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks a lot for sharing your perspective, and sorry to hear that the games you like aren't accessible enough to you :( In a future video (most likely the next one), I want to talk about the ways the genre isn't helping itself getting new people to stay, and feedback is going to be one of the points. A good example I like is GBVS, which has clear feedback for "you high blocked a low" and "you low blocked an overhead".

[@MougliFGC]

@@gaelurquiz5755 I'll have no ableism around here. Capcom themselves recognise the importance of accessibility considering the options they're adding in SF 6. Disability or not, the points that the commenter is raising remain valid, being able to understand what's happening on screen is important and yes, overdone VFX can get in the way of that. Please be nice to each other.

[@corn2454]

@@gaelurquiz5755 I don't want to start an argument or seem like I'm attacking you at all, but I take it I didn't make it clear that I do actually like these games. The reason I sounded so negative is because accessibility is a real issue, and often can be implemented without affecting balance or gameplay too much or at all, but it isn't, and it leaves people like me unable to play games they'd otherwise love. Personally, I do feel allowing more people to play these games would just make a better space for everyone who enjoys them.

[@supersharpgamer]

One of the reasons I like Dead or Alive games so much is because you can turn particle effects off and it doesn't have very much of them even if you leave them on. These games are so beautifully animated I want to see the moves. I have played fighting games for almost three decades now and I usually gravitate toward older games because they didn't have this visibility problem. I can play something like Tekken 7 for sure because of my experience but it's one of those games that one could argue has too many particle effects even for basic strikes.

[@The_Blazelighter]

​@@gaelurquiz5755 There's a huge difference between a game's accessibility and a game's ability to accomodate for disabilities. More accommodation is always better, and can literally only do good for the community. For example, consider how labeling colors can help a colorblind artist get a better idea of what to use. It's a small addition, but can make all the difference in that person's artwork. In fact, it probably can even help people who aren't colorblind. If we apply that to gaming, consider the benefits of adding colorblind modes (the more customizable, the better), the ability to reduce or remove particle effects (for visual clarity, or those prone to epilepsy), or maybe even simple button remapping (even I use this one). All of these things can make a massive difference, and should be implemented in every game that have the development time for it. It expands the audience these games can reach, and removes unnecessary handicaps for a more even playing field overall.

[@Maymaysmaymays]

I remember having this defeatist attitude back when I was playing Tekken 6 and Tag 2, where I was constantly under the impression that I wasn't making any progress and that I was underperforming. Luckily, I was given a real morale boost by someone online who thought I was doing much better than I thought. Once Tekken 7 came out, I managed to climb all the way to the purple ranks. Turns out all that grinding in the older games really had made a difference in my performance, I just lacked any sort of feedback from other players. Because of this, I feel like the communal aspect is somewhat key to the whole fighting game experience and it's something you have to actually seek out yourself, since there's no real team chat functionality like in hero shooters or MOBAs. I do get the feeling however, that some players love to gatekeep their communities and not all regions in the world are as lucky when it comes to actual fighting game scenes. The idea of having "locals" in the northern parts of Sweden where I'm from is basically unheard of. It's a barren wasteland if you're looking for a community.

[@MougliFGC]

Yeah, I don't think locals are really as common as FGC folks would like you to believe. Gerald from Core-A has a good take on the need for community, and Rubbish literally just posted a new video touching on that as well.

[@MrSpeakerCone]

The biggest thing I see frustrating new players is they don't like it when pressing a button doesn't do anything. For example, when they're in hit-stun or the opponent is doing a combo. They'll say things like "what the hell? none of my moves work!". They also hate blocking, which compounds the problem. This frustration is what leads to mashing because when they mash at least something happens sometimes.

[@tobebuilds]

Yeah, this is very accurate, and even after playing for years, the same situations can bring back those feelings of annoyance + frustration.

[@MrNovascar]

I tried to get into fighting games a few times, it hypes me a while but it falls off very fast. This is probably going to be a rather long rant, I try to keep it short but it has many points I wanna go over. I played many PvP games and generally like to compete. Fighting games are terrible "games": You have a versus mode, a usually rather trashy story mode, sometimes an arcade mode(which is just versus but multiple in a row). If you don't like the competitive scene or have a friend you regular play with you have no reason to play for more than 20h. There is no content. I think smash bros is the best game for actually having content to play. Tutorials usually suck as well. You said knowing frame data isn't that important, but shouldn't that still be in the game? Would it be too hard to make a visual effect if a move is plus/minus on block? Would it be too far to have smash characters have one of 5 weight classes instead of assigning everyone an distinct value? It it really necessary for GG to have one singular move to change based on proximity? GG gatling system "some moves can cancel into some other moves. Which one? Figure that shit out yourself!" If fighting games truly want to make the entrance easier, they should start with the core concept, not with easier inputs for supers or that stuff what the fgc usually cries about when they say "they casuallize my game". Playing against "better" players wont help you(if the gap is too big). You end up in long optimized combos and it doesn't matter what you do, because you will spend 80% of the match time in hitstun. This is just why I quit Yugioh. The game developed into a style where the goal is to make your opponent not play the game. Finding players you can actually grow with is hard. And thats just the skill issue, there is still the part of actually getting along with them. Effective training by "not playing". I want to get better by playing the game, not spending 3h in training mode to try combos. Mechanical skill-checks don't matter for me. This might be because I literally had to rebind some keys because I frequently hit wrong buttons, that how inaccurate I am. But a game-sense/knowledge check would always impress me more than this famous street fighter clip. For some reasons every fighting game I tried just sucks at balancing. Smash Ultimate had like 15 balance patches and literally nothing changed except for 5 characters in a 80+ roster. And it just sucks to see fox being a top tier for the entire series. Pokken instantly got dropped because it didn't sold well or something(surprising the servers are still up). GG Strive refuses to nerf strong characters and only patch once a year. I know balance isn't that important on lower skill level, but if you know what you're doing you can still abuse a s-tier because they mostly have a thing that breaks the fundamentals of the game. Anji vs Sol feels bad, regardless of the floor. LittleMac vs Fox will always be one sided. Fighting games just go further to push what the community likes: Long Combos. So every game becomes like 2-3 touches and you're dead. A friend showed me a DBFighterz final and I was like "how is that even fun? Is that the reason they have 3 characters because they die in one combo?" In GG you even combo them if they block.The damage is just lower, but the one in the offense just keeps hitting buttons and the other stays in hitstun for half the match. Smash 4/5 online SUCKS The community: For every "just have fun", I hear "if you can't even do this basic combo with 5 frame perfect inputs in a row, you don't have to show up again" twice. A little exaggerated but the direction still is the same. I faced a lot of elitism and gatekeeping. Like you need a GC controller to fully enjoy smash bros...

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks for taking the time to write this, you're making some good points I plan on covering in future videos.

[@Copperhell144]

One thing people keep forgetting about Moment 37 - It was actually both execution AND game-sense/knowledge check. The first hit of that particular attack cannot be parried on reaction, and thus knowing the EXACT moment the move is going to come out is crucial.

[@hasdachatlogs]

These are all very valid points. A thing that ive noticed in my 30 years playing fighters is because they were originally ports from the arcade the features like single player and extra bonus stuff was never expected at first. But obviously as time progresses the genre should as well. Outside of a few series...they havent. And that's really hurting the genre. If I was just getting into video games now and was not around in the arcade days I most likely wouldnt even bother with fighting games, truthfully. But I love this genre so much so I'm essentially expecting the issues and dissatisfaction but know ill find something worth it if I look hard enough. Bottomline...fighting games are a very hard sell. No doubt. Fantastic video too, gonna spread this around the community.

[@MarkoLomovic]

You make some valid points but Issues you have are none of these things, you simply don't want or don't know how to learn to play. It is like you are hardstuck in your own thinking refusing to do things that will make you enjoy it.

[@theuzi8516]

SamSho seems right up your alley, mate.

[@Proxyincognito]

In other games, the road from bad to good has rewards in between. You play a little bit better, you get a little bit better results. In fighting games you get none of that, you need to fight yourself through an ocean of punishment and losses until you are good enough to enjoy the game. Thats what stops me at the door. I play for fun, not to work to be able to have fun, if a game isnt fun out of the box, why bother?

[@rodsjournal6012]

It’s the same process for every game whether it be a moba, a shooter, or strategy game. You still improve, you learn little things along the journey, and you begin to do cool, self expressive things. Fighters just require different mechanics that you won’t develop unless you play fighters. You have to “work” in order to learn any game and it’s mechanics

[@rodsjournal6012]

You won’t pick up any new game and be great at it

[@Proxyincognito]

@@rodsjournal6012 I agree with that, but with most games the learning process is part of the fun (admittedly subjective here). In terms of boxing, fighting games are like fighting Mike Tyson till you're good enough to enjoy it, other games feel like going to the gym and punch a bag to learn the basics. One builds me up, the other just breaks me down.

[@channel45853]

@@Proxyincognito perfectly said

[@DesVoador]

Man, good video! Even though you don't have a lot of experience in FGs, your thought process about how FGs are PERCEIVED is spot on. I've been playing for 12 years and it took me a few of those to realize a lot of the points you make here. Deserved sub

[@TJBlack3.5]

I like fighting games because I could see improvements when I fight more experienced players in Tekken and when a setup I use on them finally works makes the match a million times more satisfying. I don't mind losing if it's the key to getting better.

[@Yoghurt890]

For me, one of the biggest barriers to entry was just getting the inputs right. For FPS, they all play almost identical (WASD for movement, left click to shoot and so on), and as you said in your video, I couldn't transfer my experience from any other game. BUT I tried some fighting games, Thems Fighting Herds and SC5 being those with my most playtime, also some Smash, which I was very competent in, as a casual player. I didn't spend too much time in online play because I can't consistently get the inputs right. Especially diagonals and soft tilts are really hard for me. I don't get the feeling of competence when I can't even get the controls down.

[@HeyImBode]

RE: People who are reluctant to play because of skill ceiling. I thought of a spectrum for games to try and explain this : How much a game informs you of what you currently cannot use. If you can't use a strategy or tool within the game (either locked behind skill or progression), the game may be designed in a way that you don't know you are missing something. Quick example: Metroid will lock areas or rooms from the player because they are opened by a specific weapon upgrade. In the older games, it won't really tell you anything there and you have to infer that by backtracking through the map over time. A game that does the same thing but will tell you is the latest God of War. There are environmental puzzles, but some require a certain unlock via progression. If you stick around the area without the upgrade, the NPC character you hang around will tell you outright "I don't think we can interact with this yet, looks like we need some equipment". I think fighting games are closer to the God Of War end of the spectrum. Meaning that you will often know that there is something to be known and you don't know it yet. Except it's not gonna be progression and unlocks that get you there, it's going to be study, reflection, training, asking questions. And I think that combination of things is just super grating for a lot of folks that can see they are missing viable strategies to play the game. Even if those strategies are just "I don't have the optimal combos and I'm gonna need to learn them all". One of the big ones is the Tekken move list. Sure you know you can reach the point where you've memorized the frame data and punishes to moves, but from day 0 (as a more experienced player) you also know you don't know that stuff. I think it's also easy to consider those activities as something different "playing the game", it's not versus mode, it's study. People want to play a game to play it, so if the other modes in their mind is not framed as such... The same style of arguments and phrasing has been used for other genres like RTS. People will unironically use "You're not playing the real game until you have X, Y and Z". I find the idea a bit silly, but I think that's the dilemma at work here.

[@draunt7]

FG have a similar problem to RTS. You're gonna play bots who don't actually play realistically, and then you'll play a real pvp match where the opponent just has so much more knowledge and skill that its an immediately overwhelming loss, and there's no margin to it. It's either play the campaign and be bored with how easy it is, or be the bot to a bunch of people who know every input, combo, and have the timings down like math.

[@riffcrypt8438]

People don't have those skills until they're at significantly high ranks. They just seem like they do because they're outplaying you. Most likely they've played just enough to know how to punish a common move you're relying on.

[@spongy5081]

As a competitive Smash player, and someone who's decent at Strive (I've won a few university tournaments at my sizable university), the most guaranteed way to make sure someone doesn't get into a fighting game is to try to teach them everything. Whenever someone attends a tournament and asks how to play, and I hear another player trying to teach them every option available to them, I can't even focus on my bracket set. Information overload will take anyone away from a game, and fighting games have a TON of information. Teach them how to attack, let them fight shitty CPUs, and they will learn new moves as they play. Even better if they have someone equally new to learn with. None of us competitive smash players started out with a tutorial on how to do everything. We were kids running around and spamming smash attacks. We learned tilts when we were sick of getting hit for smashing.

[@tylerallen6435]

I feel like this is the other side of the Polygon video about getting into fighting games. You went over every point that friends of mine have made about why they can't get into fighting games & provided succinct solutions to each of them. Great video!

[@4sevn]

Phenomenal first video! Definitely subscribing. I've grown up with quite a few fighting games my whole life, like SF Alpha3, MvsC series, soul caliber, MK, ect. I'm not the greatest if you compare me to those who play them more often, but I loved the progression I made from playing them if I'm pushed to it. I usually thought fighting games would be the easiest to get in to for a novice, either by just sticking to basic attacks or button-mash luck. Wasn't aware people now-days think it's one of the hardest, but from what you presented, I understand why. That feeling that they either have to be the best or not try at all.

[@Tundric_Schwolf]

Honestly don't agree with most of this. Good reactions are integral to most fighting games either natural one's like reacting to whiffs or forced reaction checks such as dust attacks or snake edges. I also don't think most fighting games are hard, instead very inaccessible due to terrible tutorials and matchmaking. Getting into any game that isnt the most recent nrs game/street fighter/tekken and strive surprisingly enough forces you to hop on discord servers, ask for matches and get your ass kicked by people with 100 hours minimun in the game, without being able to learn anything. Add the fact that most also require text book knowledge to play at a remotely competent level, due to necessary option selects, understanding of combo theory which varies from game to game or just as simple stuff as a wakeup system. I also wouldnt undermine the skill ceiling of first person shooters, most evidently arena shooters. Most of my fighting game friends have stated they would play online shooters if they had good aim, which I would argue it alone has an almost infinite ceiling. Add positioning, 3d movement, map awareness, etc. and it all gets quite tricky. I'd say I enjoy fighting games more but after 5 years of playing both somewhat seriously I definitely still have worse aim than footsies and would recommend friends to rather get into shooters instead of fighting games as most are awful to get into, awful to find matches for, gatekeeping communities and often questionable balance. I have hope that street fighter 6 can change this for the better but we'll have to see I do think that was a great video though, despite my rant ♥

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks, and fair enough, at the end of the day this is just my opinion :) And some of the points you mention I plan to cover later on, just wasn't in the scope of this video. I didn't say that the skill ceiling of FPS wasn't high, just making a hypothesis that the skill ceiling of fighting games is highER. But as I mentioned in the video, I have no proof and it's just speculation.

[@jpVari]

I went through your same journey in 2019 due to mk11, but moreso in 2020 due to covid. It's such a journey, 3 years in and I still feel like I am a new player. Seeing improvement is addicting though. I'm watching this for the second time after your newer video, you make great stuff! Looking forward to whatever else you have coming.

[@NadditionChannel]

A year late to this video but my 2-cents Fighting games are vague af when it comes to learning any kind of information. Even when i was brand new to league, there are lots of subtle design choices that make learning easier. Like, if someone has a spell shield (a shield that ignores the next spell that hits them), not only do they have a blue/purple shield on their character but the health bar itself will have a fancy purple border design on it. Even moreso: once you trigger the spell shield the game will display the message "spell immune" over their character. After seeing it enough times, and seeing your spells not hit their mark, it only takes a couple of repetition before you start recognizing it. Having 2 different visual Ques and text that blatantly spells out what happens might be a bit overkill to some, but it makes teaching new players about this mechanic super easy. I didnt even have to really mention this mechanic when i introduced friends to league, its something they naturally learned about as we went on and id like to thing it was because so many mechanics are blatantly called out in the game like that, that it makes learning league surprisingly easy compared to even something as simple as street fighter. Fighting games are the exact total opposite of this, youre lucky if a mechanic is even mentioned in the tutorial. Like, ive played a crapton of fighting games starting from tekken 4 on the playstation to bb, sf4,5,6, mvc3, skullgirls. And i only just recently, like not even a couple months ago, learned that overheads....exist? Like as a mechanic in fighting games. I thought there was only highs and lows, id never even heard of the term "overhead". I never knew i could be hit while im crouch blocking, so when it happened to me, i was just confused. Did the game glitch? Is that attack just unblockable? Whats going on? Do you know how i learned about it? I played granblue versus rising. In that game, whenever you tried blocking but were hit by an overhead the game displays a thought bubble over your character with two "!!" icons. I noticed that anytime i thought i got hit by weird attacks, that that symbol would pop up. After googling what it meant, i learned it was called an overhead attack and i learned the rest from there. Which is crazy to me, that through ALL the tutorials ive played over the years, i have never ever in my life seen this mechanic mentioned even once. I flat out had no idea it was a thing because for some reason, it wasnt important enough to mention or bring attention to apparently. It feels like every fighting game just assumes you have years of knowledge already so it keeps them in the background and tries not to mention them. Even more simple stuff suffer from this. Like 360 inputs, ive never been able to pull one off, i was so confused as to why. It tells me to spin the stick and im spinning it, yet it never comes out. Why? Well, the game doesnt tell you that, doing a neutral 360 input is insanely hard and only recommended for experts. Youre meant to first use an attack, then while the animation is keeping you on the floor, you do the 360 input so that as soon as its over, you do the command grab. How would you know that? The command menu sure as hell doesnt mention this anywhere. Once again, you're just supposed to know that. And its the only genre i feel that does something like that consistently. How come after i blocked the enemies attack, they managed to hit me first after i tried to retaliate? Because they were safe on block, but good luck knowing what that is. Tutorials dont mention it, and the training mode, while it does display frame data, doesnt explain what frame data...is. You cant really expect a casual player to know frame data of all things, especially when no other game in any genre ever made, makes knowing frame data a requirement for basic play. All games have frame data, but only fighting games rely on them for combos and even stuff like frame traps, etc. Thats where all the perceived difficulty comes from. Its fairly common to play fighting games, get destroyed, and have no idea why. Because the games themselves are horrid at teaching you what the rules are. Hell, if granblue didnt have text popups on the side of the screen telling me my move is invulnerable, i would have never figured that out on my own. Good chance i would have quit playing before i ever discovered that. Having better tutorials, while helpful, wouldnt be the end-all solution to this either. Most tutorials are boring, and not many people wanna do fighting game tutorials in particular because they often are too overwhelming. Undernight in birth has a decent tutorial but after seeing it have like 30+ tutorial levels you have to go through, i wouldnt blame new players for not doing it. Instead, teach the game rules through the actual game. Have more text popups, use universal colors for certain types of moves, add more icons etc. Dont be scared of giving too much info, its better than none at all.

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks for taking the time to write this. As I replied to another commenter, I address some of these issues in other videos, and my tutorial series aims to demistify a lot of that stuff. Yes, it would be better if the devs to care of that, and some of them are slowly realising, but in the meantime, there are resources out there.

[@thechugg4372]

I think these video essays focus too much on new player experience, yes new player experience is important but you already have thousands and thousands of essays on that, meanwhile you have thousands of medium level players who are already pretty deep into fighting games that end up quitting for completely different reasons.

[@MougliFGC]

Fair point, but I'm not the right person to make that video. At least not yet.

[@STRONTIumMuffin]

Great video! what got me into fighting games was the single player content of smash bros, especially smash bros brawl and project + then slap city. purchasing games like this garentees a full single player experience if you don't like the multiplayer

[@aquamarinerose5405]

On the specific topic of being willing or unwilling to put the time in to learn fighting games. I less feel like I'd want "instant gratification" and more that I feel like I'd have to essentially dedicate myself to playing a single game for the rest of my life when I'm someone who likes a number of different genres. And that most of my life I've tended more towards singleplayer RPG type experiences. Though I've also gotten more into Roguelikes and Shooters which are arguably on a similar level of "you gotta take time to git gud" recently (Specifically, Skul the Hero Slayer and Splatoon 3 respectively) Edit: Also mentioning Splatoon, I think that one of the things that really helped me to actually get into shooters through splatoon is the fact that it has a singleplayer campaign that's actually really good at giving the player a basic understanding of how the game works. How to Move, How to Aim, How to handle different situations and even how Turf Control works until you are... not quite a master, but I think that once you've taken on Beyond Alterna you're probably more than ready for casual, and might even be ready for your first ranked match.

[@MougliFGC]

As I mention in another video, a lot of people play several fighting games side by side, so unless you're trying to become a literal professional, it's unlikely you're going to dedicate yourself to a single game.

[@aquamarinerose5405]

@@MougliFGC That's fair, mostly just thought I'd note it as something that had held me back from just about ANY competitive game for a long time, and that only recently got broken by Splatoon (which I think I mention in another comment). Like... To use a non-fighting-game example: TF2 or CSGO, I know they're some of the best shooters out there, but I ALSO know that you're fairly likely to queue up with someone who's played the game for a literal decade even if they AREN'T explicitly "Professional".

[@justaguy80]

this is a damn good video, i can’t wait to finish it and check out of your vids! as someone in a similar position like you, and has thought about this a decent amount, i’m glad to see other people talk about it edit: damn this is your first vid, what an amazing start my guy!

[@mind-of-neo]

What made me frustrated and hopeless about fighting games was not the feeling that the skill ceiling was too far away, but that I could not literally understand how to get better, I didn't understand why I couldn't get my hands to do a specific maneuver correctly or what I had done incorrectly.

[@MougliFGC]

Some of it is due to the game, I talk about it in my other video :)

[@arielm9847]

Great video and observations. I agree that it is very much about finding the right fighting game. I largely ignored fighting games growing up but decided to give DOA a shot on a whim after trying several other titles that didn't leave much of an impression on me. I ended up really liking the hold system and I consider the back-and-forth gameplay of DOA the closest any fighting game has gotten to feeling like a real fight. I eventually ended up getting GBVS and that has gone on to become my go-to 2D fighter. The characters I play all have parries since I've come to learn I just enjoy access to that mechanic.

[@KramerBebop]

I grew up with fighting games, always a casual. I then stopped playing them somewhere between 2014 and 2020. I then booted up KOF 13 for nostalgia, and the simple feeling of the game gave me an epiphany, and I'm a dedicated player (of many games) ever since. Being part of communities like Discord also helped me SO much to have the fuel to keep pushing.

[@seldomsadsam]

Great points made at 14:00 ish moment to moment is incredibly important and often overlooked! Great video, well worth the wait ♥️!

[@DumbMutt]

The funny thing about fighting games and their fundamentals is you're probably playing some form of them and learning tech without realizing it, other genres effectively trick you into learning the fundamentals that transfer over quite nicely. Side-stepping, side-walking or rolling to avoid a soulslike boss' attack and hitting them when they're open is straight up whiff-punishing, you can even straight up side-walk certain bosses according to handedness or their weak side to avoid most of their attacks (absolutely key knowledge and movement that transfers over to Tekken), same with the Punchout games, you're learning to punish in some form, players with deeper knowledge learn to counterhit, parry, block, or otherwise take more risks for more options, it's all fighting game tech. Things like zoning, cancelling, using knowledge of frame-data to your advantage all absolutely exist outside of fighting games, Dota 2 and GunZ heavily emphasize animation cancelling to achieve deeper gameplay, you will see plenty of zoning in arena shooters with explosive and non-hitscan weapons. I don't think the context is important, I think it's the knowledge gap in not knowing your options that makes the genre harder to approach, and not everyone has the luxury of friends who want to play and improve together.

[@Kintaku]

This is a great intro video to the fighting game genre. Like you said, there are those for whom the games just won’t jive with, but I think many people can be intimidated away when they might actually enjoy the games.

[@MarquisLeary34]

There's a reason they're intimidated, ya know. Constantly being humiliated and stomped into the ground ceasing being fun after a short time.

[@Kintaku]

@@MarquisLeary34 I mean yeah, but that’s not exclusive to fighting games though. You have to start off a lot of things bad and just learn by losing. Like even if the game was perfectly putting you against people your level you would lose 50% of the time. If that part is what’s intimidating then fighting games probably aren’t for you. And that’s okay.

[@user-SaputroYono]

​@@MarquisLeary34 Thats why some people are right. "Its all game until someone lose it eye"

[@channel45853]

@@Kintaku it's not exclusive to fighting games but I think it's the most prevalent with fighting games. Just like bugs aren't exclusive to Bethesada games, but bugs are usually prevalent in their games much more than with other devs.

[@Kintaku]

@@channel45853 lol that’s funny. Fair though.

[@Malacai087]

I dislike fighting games because they won't nerf my best friends main

[@nargaman261]

Overall i mostly agree with everything you said. But there is one thing I reaally disagree, and that is the size of the skill gap compared to other games, specifically rts. I play a lot of starcraft and age of empires, and i gotta say, rts are very similar to fighting games in a lot of ways. Both are 1v1 focussed, take a similar amount of time to get into and have a significantly lower barrier of entry than outsiders assume. But one key difference i personally see between these 2 types of games is the sheer infinity of skill ceiling in rts. You can reasonably reach mechanical perfection with a certain fighting game character, from where on further skill improvement mainly derives from your ability to make good decisions and to read your opponent. Mechanical Perfection in RTS however is not reachable by a human beeing. There is pretty much an infinity of possibilities in how good you could move your units, and moving your units is not the only thing you'll do. Micro (your ability to move units) and macro (your ability to manage your base) cancel each other out in a lot of times, making games about choosing mental priority on top of each of these 2 things beeing very complex on their own and sometimes crossing over into each other. And on top of all that strategy games also have the layer of, well, strategy. This is not to say there is no strategy in fighting games, but the net of possible things you could do in an rts is just way larger. Im not trying to make strategy games sound superior or anything, i love fighting games, just pointing out that I am 100% convinced that the possible skill gap in strategy games is not only comparable to fighting games, but way larger

[@imfamousbawble2134]

Honestly, fighting games are too much of a grind and require too much outside research. You can't learn everything through play like an fps, you have to look up videos and frame data and match ups... And its all just too boring... I play video games for fun, not to research the subtleties of each character. Its why I used to play quake and unreal... Everything you needed to know for success was in the game... You learned it by doing... Not by research. Same with starcraft... You learned by doing... By playing in matches... Everything was more organic

[@MougliFGC]

I have another video where I look into how games could improve in that area.

[@Screwz_HT]

You don't need to frontload info. As someone who's "above average" in the genre, you improve by playing. The only times i ever feel the need to info dig is when there a specific move and even then it's literally just googling "how to deal with x move" and 9/10 someone's asked the same question.

[@alyasVictorio]

This video deserves more recognition specially for the gamers from both FGC and other game genre communities. Good content, dude. 😉

[@enderethan229]

The two biggest things making me border on quitting the genre as a whole would be combos and inputs, both of which heavily emphasize skills that I find neither fun nor impressive. In most games, if you take a hit, you take that bot’s damage an move on. Maybe you’re out in a disadvantageous situation and need to figure out how to escape, but never are you unfairly punished for your mistakes. Fighting Games, on the other hand, immediately take away your controller on hit and ask that you watch as the other player executes their muscle-memory combos without any possibility of escape. I value things like neutral and positioning, not who can experience more of the game at once. The only reason I feel they’re still so heavily emphasized is because they LOOK fancy, which makes for a good spectator sport. Inputs, by extension, emphasize dexterity, which isn’t what I’m looking for in a videogame. Dark Souls, Hollow Knight, or hell, any turn-based RPG will always allow you to use the move you want if the conditions are met. So long as you aren’t doing something else or dead, you can use the move so easily that it doesn’t even feel like you’re using a controller. Wanna do a slightly ranged attack in Street Fighter, though, and suddenly you’re typing in cheat codes that don’t even resemble the move’s in-game motions. I don’t think there’s ever a reasonable excuse for accidentally using a move you didn’t mean to, as that’s a sign of poorly-designed controls. When whether you win or lose comes down to whether or not you moved the stick slightly farther than you should’ve for a super input, suddenly the game feels less like a high-octane test of skill and more like glorified RNG. I would ADORE seeing a Fighting Game that does away with these mechanics, if not just to see how it would play out. I know full well there are other ways to make for much deeper substance and entertainment, if it would just be explored.

[@MougliFGC]

I have things to say about combos (or more accurately a specific combo tool), but that's another video. As for inputs, a quick glance at genre's landscape shows that it's moving in the direction of simpler inputs (SF 6 modern controls, GBVS, DNF Duel, Tekken 8 assist mode, Project L, etc) whether the community likes it or not. Although it's worth pointing out that while it may or may not be debatable whether simple inputs are necessary for accessibility, many games have proven that it is not sufficient.

[@olianims]

TLDR: viewers want to understand what is happening on screen, and if they don't understand, they get intimidated and give up before trying. Here my theory as to why people turn away from fighting games after seeing high level gameplay: I'm also a beginner at fighting games who started in Strive, and have a tiny bit of experience with Skullgirls, SFV, and DNF duel. My main genre of games is actually team based multiplayer games like League and Valorant, so I'll be referencing those two. My theory on why the fighting game skill ceiling is so intimidating is because non-players have no clue what is happening onscreen. In professional Valorant, the players are making dozens of decisions every second and playing extremely tactically with their team, but to a non-players's perspective, they are just clicking on heads and using easy to understand abilities. When they see a character pull out a small orb and then proceed to heal a teammate with said orb, they immediately understand that this ability is used to heal. When they see a character throw a lobbing projectile that explodes and kills an enemy hiding in a small room, they immediately understand that this ability is a grenade. League is a bit more confusing to the average non-player, since it has many, many more abilities and a crap ton more stuff happening onscreen at any given moment. However, the first 10 minutes of any game always starts with two 1v1s, a 2v2, and a player who runs around the map killing monsters and assisting teammates. This is easy to understand. The viewer might not understand what any of the abilities do, but they do know that the goal of a 1v1 is to kill the opponent and destroy the tower. There are clear objectives and slow enough gameplay to process what is happening. Later on in the game, the players start fighting as a team, and while all the visuals going off can be confusing, the viewer has a decent idea of what every character is capable of after watching them for the first 10 minutes. Now, compare that to fighting games. Like League, there is an easy to understand final objective: kill the enemy. Unlike league, there is no long buildup that slowly reveals what each character does. The two fighters immediately explode into rapid combos, mixups, oki, etc, etc. Before the viewer even knows what basic moves each character has, the players are already hitting them with everything in their arsenal. Then the viewer sees the sheer amount of moves there are(looking at you, Tekken) and gets even MORE intimidated. As someone who had never played a fighting game before GGST, I was originally also intimidated. Then, I saw Goldlewis's moveset, which is listed as THREE abilities: minigun, drone, and Behemoth Typhoon, and 2 supers. I didn't know that there were 8 behemoths, but just SEEING that there wasn't an entire essay of mechanics and moves made me much more comfortable picking him up and now I main him.

[@MougliFGC]

I agree with the point, but I'm not sure I agree with the League example. I don't understand anything that's going on when watching videos like "Top 10 200IQ plays in League", and I'm not sure how many people who aren't already interested in League really have the patience to sit through the first 10 minutes to be convinced to get into it. On the other hand, anyone can understand moment 37, even if they don't understand the extent to which it was impressive.

[@everybodyknowslego]

I liked your analogy comparing fighting games with other skills, like a sport, or an instrument, or even another game. The main difference, at least to me, is that if im bad at a sport and i decide to play against someone better than me, yes ill lose, but ill be actively building my skills and having fun because im actually playing. If im bad at a fighter and i decide to play someone better than me, often times that means i dont get TO play, because the very nature of a combo means that the one getting comboed literally cannot do anything because of hitstun. This is why i think Smash is a such a genius game, because when you lose a match in smash, you still got to actually play.

[@MougliFGC]

Glad to hear Smash gives you an experience you like!

[@DonWippo1]

Great Video. From my own experience it is really hard to sell a Fighting Game to people as there is so much you need to explain upfront, however those that are willing to put in the effort are really fascinated by them. The biggest problem is most likely the lack of players, so even matches are way to rare no matter how good the netcode is. I am really bad at shooting games, but when I played Overwatch 1 online back in the day there were lots of players to play with who were just as bad as me. This is really rare in fighting games as they are not populated enough, which makes them even hard to recommend if there is not enough enjoyable single player content within the game.

[@MougliFGC]

That's why Leon Massey suggest to start with a popular game. Street Fighter V is very chill at low level, for instance, and has a decent number of people. Even Tekken 7 is not bad in that regard. I'm stuck on 1st dan, but I still have 80 wins.

[@DonWippo1]

@@MougliFGC Yeah, I noticed that too when I recently started playing Tekken, but honestly I'd love to recommend Granblue Fantasy Vs or DNF Duel to Newcomers due to their relative ease, but can't because of low player pools and thus poor matchmaking. GBFV is a little bit easier to recommend though as the Single Player Mode is enjoyable and even teaches you a teensie bit about every character.

[@MougliFGC]

@@DonWippo1 I love GBVS, but even if the player base was bigger, I'd struggle to recommend it to a beginner as it is essentially a 2-touch game. I also wish RPG mode would teach you more about the basics beyond the character's moves.

[@shivertron]

i always wanted to play fighting games, but never could get good, so just didnt like them, this video was very helpful and inspiring. Thanks!

[@GiRR007]

I think fighting games are harder to get into because they are mechanically unintuitive. For example If I want to do something in a shooter say look up, I just push the up button, if I want to attack I push the attack button, if I want to do a unique attack there's more than likely a button for that which does what I instinctively think it should do, even when it comes to the more extreme parts of a shooting game such as lining up grenade in csgo I still just need to look and stand in a specifically way. In fighting games though, if I want to move sure I press a similar move button, but if I want to do something unique, I have to press up, down, up, down, left, right, left, right, b, a, start and my character does a pre programed attack. It makes me feel like i'm doing math as none of the buttons I push indicate to me they would have done ANY of that.

[@MougliFGC]

I will touch on that a bit in my next video.

[@GiRR007]

@@MougliFGC Looking forward to it :D 👍

[@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447]

well 'hardcore' action games such as the dmc series are fairly similar to fighting games actually. it's actually this very game series that made me realize that i will probably enjoy fighting games, and indeed i have!

[@channel45853]

i disagree with that, DMC 5 I would say is more like a beat em up modernized

[@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447]

@@channel45853 it's similar in how technical it is

[@runefaustblack]

You missed a really obvious thing to say «Imagine if you were considering picking up the guitar, but you're only point of reference is Guilty Gear.»

[@Anthony13USA]

My dislike of fighting games is more on the technical level. I just don't like how stiff they all feel to control. I prefer games where movement is very fluid with little to no end lag between animations, like fast paced precision platformers, or any game where precise fluid movement is core to the gameplay.

[@BackOff_xd]

Tbh the stiffness depends of the game, with more standard fighting games like Street Fighter and Killer Instinct you will find a stubbier, more spacing-based style while more anime fighting games like Dragon Ball FighterZ and Blazblue: Central Fiction are faster and more centered in momentum.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

The skill floor for fighting games is just astronomical compared to most genres. And personally fighting games (even smash) tend to bring the rage out of me. Similar to FPS games I never developed the skillset for them as a kid. So why would I bother banging my head against the wall for 100 hours as an adult just to be worse than everyone else playing and have nothing to show for it except a lot of nights raging? I can just play some cool new indie game or an interesting spin on a genre I already like.

[@MougliFGC]

If rage is your expected reaction then yeah, might be best staying away from competitive games.

[@beforedrrdpr]

de foq? i didnt even saw you had 204 subs, this is dead underrated

[@antonsimmons8519]

I actually love fighting games, and I have since I was ~10. I like to see the perspective from other views, because if I'm just looking at fighting games from my own perspective, the ONLY thing I manage to come up with is that same question: "Why don't more people like these games? They're so much fun, though!" Which doesn't clarify a thing XD

[@Wombola]

thanks for linking the playist you made

[@colbyboucher6391]

Difficulty in competitive multiplayer games ahhhbapbapbap you're missing something huge here. Yes, some of these are more or less difficult than others. It's about margin of error and punishment. Maybe those aren't the best terms to use, but let's put it this way. If I'm playing Halo and I overextend by stepping around a corner, I can go "oh shit I shouldn't have done that", step back, and not lose much of anything for doing so. If I was playing CS:GO? Head blown off, round probably lost. Similarly fighting games exist on a similar scale. Part of the reason Smash Bros. feels "easier" to most people is because you have so much mobility that tiny movements don't matter so much. It's not like Street Fighter where stepping 1mm closer or farther with your slowass walk speed could be the difference between being fine and 1/3rd of your health bar disappearing. Not to mention that to most people the damage % system in that game feels a lot less punishing, because rather than just an irreversible loss you're given ample ways to recover and in a sense, your next mistakes become *less* punishing until you're at a point where you could get easily yeeted. And skill floors are *absolutely* a function of difficulty. Your thought that people look at tournaments and think "I need to do that" seems like projection more than anything, the greater question is what skill floor does the playerbase generally sit at and what does it take to hit that skill floor? And *how well is the true skill floor* communicated to the player? (Side note, I learned the same lesson as that "think, don't mash" video by reading through Gief's Gym. Basically it was about training mode reps you can do to get your FGC legs, and there was a massive focus on making your normals second-nature, learning to recognize throws and learning how to walk forward without eating shit. I now feel like I can actually think when I play SFV now. I think THAT skill floor is, in fact, a major barrier because figuring it out is boring as hell, and SFVI is going to be huge for that.) And the thing is, difficulty and the skill floor / ceiling aren't always the same. For instance I wouldn't say that Quake 3 Arena is actually a very *difficult* game. The skill floor includes strafe jumping, and matches involve you becoming extremely disadvantaged over and over again which makes skill gaps between players huge, but at any given moment you can sort of do whatever the hell you want and not instantly eat shit for it. You can continue to just hop around and learn things. There isn't so much of this "think fast, chucklenuts" vibe you get in a game where you're instantly two feet away from someone who's going to beat the snot out of you and walk away after you try *one thing* and screw up *once* before being tossed back into matchmaking.

[@therokku7393]

I think it was in a Core A video that said that the community was a big factor in these type of games, i also practice martial arts and the difference is that you see and feel progress faster and the rewards are more palpable, in games in general the benefits are not so fast, also that you are full blame if you lose, unlike team games where you can get support from the others, algo Ego plays a big role, no one wants to get his ass kicked for too much time, in martial arts someone experienced goes easy so you can actually feel like you re progressing, being via correction in your technique or soft sparring, in FG i havent seen a dude hey i can train you, bcs everyones just want to get more wins, One solution that came to my mind while writing this was making an online gym were people train hahaha, so the skill level is kinda similar, bcs matchmaking is kinda busted in a lot of games, thats why belts exist tho, to indicate a concrete level of experience

[@MougliFGC]

Yes, that is exactly what I was alluding to at the end of the video with casual matches. I will make a video about it some day. Although Armchair Violence has an interesting video about the value of the belt system: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eZuXenWim6irbKs

[@therokku7393]

@@MougliFGC Yoo i didnt thought you would answer, i m obligued to sub nice man

[@drmarikfox2583]

The biggest thing that sucks about getting into fighting games to me, is conversely solved by more people getting into fighting games. If the fighting game that really draws your eye is Niche within an already Niche genre then the few players left are just demons and it's hard wanna put in the effort when just getting decent or good won't cut it, and all the effort will be to play against the same 14 people that are hopefully still there; or you just have to settle and play a game you arent quite as interested in. I guess that isnt really exclusive to fightning games but it just stings more due to the already being niche part and the required minimum investment of reaching even just the skill floor.

[@MougliFGC]

That's definitely an issue and I feel that a bit playing GBVS. As I alluded to, the FGC seems to have an attitude towards casual matches that doesn't help with this, but that's a whole video topic.

[@drmarikfox2583]

@@MougliFGC And that’ll be a video I’ll watch

[@Eltanin]

This is an engagement comment. Keep it up, Hope the algo keeps working in your video's favor.

[@wavehead210]

4:24 wow really did not expect to see one of my fav strategy games, Frozen Synapse, show up in a video essay! I feel so seen!

[@kingofthegrapes]

cool vid! I had a shockingly similar start with the genre, and the times when I gave the misconceptions in this very video as reasons for why I don’t play fighting games are still fresh in my mind. However, now 700 hours deep into strive, what I’m really missing from other multiplayer titles is a reason to keep playing. The fighting games I’ve played don’t give any sort of reward for consistently playing, as well as having very short matches that end up feeling like training for a test that never comes.

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks! You make an interesting point about reasons to keep playing, and it's true that fighting games don't really have much in the way of incentives for that. As another commenter pointed out, they don't really do anything to scratch the completionist itch. But I think it goes back to the idea of moment to moment enjoyment, you play because playing is fun, not because it's taking you somewhere. It's closer to a game like say Minecraft, where you create your own objectives. Maybe consider trying some tournaments? It's also worth checking if another game might meet your needs better. For instance, DBFZ and Skullgirls would have longer matches due to the team nature

[@kedisaurus2657]

I think the reward comes when you can find some local tournament to play and enjoy the game with others players. The bounds you make within the FGC is stronger than any other type of game. And the hype is damn real, when you're able to land your combo or do a sick move and hear 10 guys shouting like crazy behind you is like dopamine

[@TJBlack3.5]

@@kedisaurus2657I guess I'll train til that day comes

[@dj_koen1265]

Honestly i never bothered to pick up an instrument because I wasn’t good at playing And i felt like i never would be no matter how hard i tried At some point i said f* it And i just started practicing without focusing on how bad i was And now people sometimes say that im good even though im still trash I also found that a similar thing happened with fighting games I was too bad and didn’t want to get stomped by the people who had thousands of games on their name But at some point i said f* it we ball, and just threw myself into gg acpr which is a brutal game to start with But i have become decently competent now I genuinely enjoyed it most of the time even when i was super bad and got destroyed it was fun to me Before i started playing +r online i also had a time where i owned it on the switch a couple years earlier and i had fun playing it locally with people when we were all new And it wasn’t too difficult for anyone in that setting

[@yabara_]

Although I think MOBAs are the games with the highest skill ceiling, FGs are surely deep as well, and I like how you learn it and how you improve, fighting games incarnate the “Learn to get better”, and there’s only you against yourself(it’s also a matter of tastes, if you prefer solo or team). MOBAs are also difficult to get into!

[@laxxnacken2129]

You pretty much got it to the point. Very nice video and very accurate from a perspective that isn't just saying: You're bad get good

[@fiorin_rhiri]

Two main problems for me really. The first is the quality of online in many fighting games. The lack of block features/connection quality indicators/active playerbases/rollback are deterrents along with whack lobby systems. Either it takes too long to get a decent match, or you have multiple matches with crazy packet loss wasting your time. Other genres don't have that problem. The second one is the FGC in general. It's difficult to want to stick around at events like locals when all you do is go 0-2 and go home after paying venue fees. There's a lot of big talk about getting people into fighting games, but the FGC seems adamant on doing its own thing instead of figuring out how to get new people in outside of spouting platitudes. The guidance sort of isn't there.

[@MougliFGC]

Fair point re: online. I'm not a network code expert, but I assume the other genres aren't as sensitive to latency, and it's mostly peer to peer connections rather than everyone connecting to a server. I wonder how much of an issue this is in strategy games. For the rest, I'm trying to bring a fresh perspective. I didn't talk about everything in one video because it'd be too long.

[@fiorin_rhiri]

​@@MougliFGC Other games aren't as sensitive to latency, but it feels like fighting games are a decade behind every other genre for online features. In League I can get into a game very quickly. Same with Fortnite, Call of Duty, and even smaller titles like Deep Rock Galactic, Risk of Rain 2. Games also have features to not penalize you if someone disconnects at the start of a game, that sort of thing. In comparison, Strive before last patch, you had to wait for network to connect to even enter the game, then wait some more on network to get into tower. Then you have to find someone to play, sometimes the battle stations glitch, sometimes there's nobody to play as you're the odd player in. Then you get into a game and the other guy loses packets like a mofo, can't block him easily. Some evenings as much of 50% of my matches were packet drop loss city. This isn't a fun experience and makes just playing the game onerous.

[@MougliFGC]

@@fiorin_rhiri Strive could do a lot to improve tech-wise yeah, but 50% of matches with connectivity issues that seems very high compared to my experience. If you're the odd one out, standby in training mode should sort you out quickly. For the rest it's a function of the player base. At the time I'm writing this, Deep Rock Galactic has 10 times the active users as Strive does. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem though, this specific issue. I'm doing my part to make that number go up :)

[@fiorin_rhiri]

​@@MougliFGC I play late sometimes, so from what I understand, people from other regions come to East Coast tower in Strive. So you get matches with high ping, packet loss, and jitter. At least the latest patch added a ping indicator before a match and allows you to block players so they can't tag you around tower.

[@Lockirby2]

For me at least, I don't think this addresses most of the reasons why I don't like fighting games (and I do otherwise enjoy most of the strengths of fighting games that you mentioned in this video). I tend to enjoy perfecting platformers and RPGs more than fighting games for a few reasons. -As somebody else mentioned in the comments, losing is less uncomfortable when you're not specifically losing to a person. If I run into the 1-1 Goomba in Super Mario Bros., I may feel a bit silly at worst, but it's not really embarrassing at all. But if I lose over and over again to actual people, then I feel too... vulnerable, I guess? This definitely doesn't put me off by itself, but it definitely doesn't help, especially when you can lose so many times and those losses can be so one-sided. -I feel like I need to reach the skill floor to even have fun with a game, but I also need to be hooked by the game in order to put in the effort to learn it. It's a Catch-22 in that regard. In fighting games, I usually can't reach the skill floor quickly enough to make intentional decisions before I lose interest in the game. The only exception for me is Smash Bros., which is why it's one of the few fighting games that I play. I'm not really saying that the execution barrier should be lowered though; I agree that it is what it is and that's just part of the genre. -I find it more difficult to learn the games organically. I don't think fighting games are too fast to play (as you mentioned), but I do think they're fast enough that I struggle to look back on a match and identify what my actual mistakes were or how I could fix them. If I gained more experience, I'd be able to analyze my play better, but that just feeds into my other point above; I can't reach that level of skill without enjoying the game first, and I don't enjoy the game yet. And I prefer to learn by doing and figuring things out for myself rather than reading guides online when I'm doing something for fun. -I think part of the issue is that I also don't think playing against CPUs is very fun either. You typically can't truly predict what a CPU is going to do because there's usually a (truly) random component to their decision-making, even if it's not entirely random. It feels like a different dynamic to me. Overall though, this is a great video, and I feel like it addresses the sort of complaints I hear from many people (some of whom are talking about games in general TBH). I did think memorizing combos was necessary to accomplish anything interesting, but I guess that's not entirely true.

[@bencegergohocz5988]

This! You don't need to be a pro to play the game BUT the reason people think like that is more about youtube. The fgc has no intrest watching gameplay from someone bad so all the gameplay youtubers are top 1% player and most of those are the top 1% of theat top 1%. If you watch anything about strive (except the "lets check out how bad people on floor x are" video. It's ganna be form someone in celestial but the tower has a decent player base as low as like floor 6. I'm prett sure the 50% mark of the playerbase is on the low end of floor 8. The guy who played for 2000k hours in 2 yeara is not representative of what a normal player is like. I only put in q few hour a week and i'm decent. Floor 9 is deffinitly not the same as an evo top 8 contender but that's not realy something i want. These are games. You play them to entertain yourself above all else. Btw. This was a realy good first video.

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks! And I agree with your observation. For reference, I'm bouncing between floor 8 and 9, and that's where all my Strive footage comes from. The Strive tower has its own problems, being notoriously top-heavy, because of the system that stops people from falling below a certain floor based on how good the game thinks they are. That leads to wide skill gaps within the same floor. Going back to your initial point, I think there are some beginners who document their journey and showing that it's possible to have a good time at the low end, maybe we need more of that. Sajam has a series where a learns on stream a game he's never played before. But he's an experienced player, so it's not quite the same.

[@Drebin1989]

@@MougliFGC you do have people that document their journey. Hell I've done it with multiple fighting games I've played and still do for the most part. It's there. The problem is people don't take the time to go look for it if it ain't "mainstream". They're like the people that are like there's no real R&B anymore....yeah there is. It's always been there. You just don't take the time to go look for it.

[@andrewsquest628]

Thanks for the vid, and btw this photo of your cosplay shows you as a really good-looking person

[@TOWEOatmeal]

damn, this is your only video? I'd be surprised to see this video not do really well

[@richardhawk4770]

I used to love fighting games. But as I grew older they just turned into work. I had less and less free time and fighters had less and less content. I don't have time to lab for 5 hours a day and there's zero singleplayer content. So all there is for me is to get bodied online

[@Dealve]

I love fighting games, and I was introduced to the genre mostly from Smash and other platform fighters, but that's also the only game I think I am actually good at in the genre. I have always been turned off by traditional fighting games purely because I absolutely suck at them. Like I went online and I just get perfected because I didn't understand neutral, or how to block well, or wake ups. My friends were so much better than me that it was never fun for either of us. I think the reason why so many people quit fighting games before they get gud is exactly this. I don't have fun getting bodied over and over again, it's just frustrating. Then me and some other of my type moon nerd friends picked up the new Melty Blood, and since we were all bad at it, I actually had fun learning the game, and although I still get bodied online, I actually am starting to understand where I went wrong in matches. So, in conclusion, I think we need more bad people playing fighting games so us noobs can learn more naturally. Or better bots, cause some of them are so removed from how humans play it's not even funny. As for me, it's not that I hate losing, it's I want to have a chance to play the game, and not just spend my time in the corner getting memed to oblivion.

[@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447]

this is your very first video?! damn i'm impressed

[@lilliangoulston5706]

Fantastic video! Consider me subbed. I'm working on an indie fighting game right now and I've been thinking about how to make things approachable for new players. I think there's a misconception in the FGC that people who don't play fighting games are new to video games in general. That's not true, and I think you nailed it on the head when talking about transferable skills. One additional reason why I'd recommend fighting games to players is the community. Multiplayer games are inherently social, and this is especially true for multiplayer games. That's not just speculation - Quantic Foundry has done studies on gamer motivations. They've found that players who like community also like competition, and vice versa. The two motivations are not mutually exclusive; instead, players who like social interaction don't care whether it's through competition or community. (In psychological terms, this also lines up pretty heavily with being an extrovert, as does thrill-seeking behavior. So an exciting, fast-paced game with a thriving competitive scene is perfect for any extrovert looking for something new.) It's easy to see why fighting games are niche when looking at Quantic Foundry's Gamer Motivation Profile. Fighting games target the Action-Social cluster, but don't fully satisfy the Achievement-Mastery cluster. They satisfy both of the Mastery motivations - Challenge and Strategy - but do NOT satisfy the Completion and Power motivations in the Achievement category. (Quantic Foundry describes the Completion motivation as "The desire to complete every mission, get every collectible, and discover hidden things." It describes the Power motivation as "The importance of becoming powerful within the context of the game world.") Normally, players who like the Mastery motivations also enjoy the Achievement motivations, but fighting games only provide the Mastery side.

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks! GekkoSquirrel has a few good videos on UX and accessibility for fighting games. Them's Fighting Herds is also a game that commonly pops up when discussing good tutorials. I especially like the story mode, with the NPCs designed to train you with some of the basics (e.g. the wolf that's begging you to anti-air it). Thanks for reminding me about Quantic Foundry's work. I would have talked about it in this video, but I couldn't remember their name for the life of me 😅. Good luck with your game :)

[@tomaturtle7790]

I've been playing fighting games since Street Fighter 2 in the 90's. I got into them because of the characters, fighting styles, the music and backgrounds. After a few years I just take my losses and just enjoy playing. I don't play online much unless it's with friends local or online. I suck at Killer Instinct and Mortal Kombat but I love playing them regardless and I don't care about the tier list to see what the best character to play as. I play more of the arcade or story modes than anything. For me that's how I practice. It also let's me test out who I'm good with, which is usually the female Fighters. 😁 This is a cool video, man. Thanks for talking about this.

[@coalminecanary1277]

I like fighting games, this video, and your channel - SUBBED

[@elbuhdai605]

My main issue with fighting games is that the bloated controls seems unnecessary. I come to fighting games to enjoy cool fights and I don't like that I have to spend hours on memorization and execution just to even start truly enjoying a fighting game. The moment to moment strategy in the genre is great and something that I actually really enjoy, which makes games like DBFZ and Smash the best fighting games for me. Launching a new game, hitting pause, and looking at the dozens of needlessly complex inputs I need to learn and memorize just to play ONE character (out of at least a dozen or more) is not motivating. It just makes me want to play something else.

[@MougliFGC]

Good to hear that there are games in the genre that you like!

[@iceloveanime]

i like fighting games on casual level because i used to play them all the time with cousins when i was younger. Dead or Alive and Smash always stood out because those were the games we had the most fun in. Smash offered us reasons to have fun besides trying our best to win with just how wild and wacky it's gameplay can be. DOA3 offered us epic and cool moment to moment gameplay with it's counter system, tag mode, and stage transitions.

[@pugawugum7458]

14:32 🤣 Wow, that off topic burn was unexpected, but appreciated. Great video, keep it up.

[@duel2803]

the marlinpie combos are to damn hard

[@Proxic0n]

I love the shot selection in this video

[@jettmanas]

As a lifelong fighting game player, I was interested in this unique concept for a vid. Nicely done, w/good points & visual examples. I like Strive as well. 🙂Difficulty is always an interesting factor. The skill gap is quite the issue in the genre. The more players, the more likely one can usually find someone around their level so it's enjoyable. But smaller games like TFH can work well, depending on the community. 🤔

[@vacantly]

the reason the skill ceiling stops me is bc fighting games are pvp at their core, compared to something like guitar. some of my favorite bands in the world include people who are so far from technical masters, so it's easy to see something i can achieve and be happy with, and i'm not competing directly with others when i pick up a guitar. not saying your point is wrong though. i agree with the main idea that you don't have to be tournament to enjoy these games and I like the video! especially appreciate your observation about prediction vs reaction speed

[@oscarlove4394]

"There is however something strange about this when it comes to gaming. In other activies, like playing a musical instrument, or drawing, or picking up a new sport. You wouldn't spend that much time thinking about how far you are from skill ceiling wouldn't you? Sure you may end up quitting if the impression you're not getting any better. But that hasn't stopped you from giving it a try right? So i ask you, when it comes to fighting games, why does this stop people at the door?" IMO its the impersonal and deeply competitive nature of fighting games. a musical instrument or drawing are not competitive environments. You can be competitive about it, but they are not by default or naturally competitive. You only really compete with yourself. You dont feel intensely bad, like you 'lost', because you can't play a solo or shade an eyebrow. In a sport you typically play with real living people, if you're new others will see that and go easy on you, they might give you advice. "work on X, but you're doing Y very well for a beginner" and that can keep you going and make your improvement more 'visible' even if you go a long time before you get even a single 'win'. Not so with fighing game, the typical fighting game experience is that you get stomped by a few names on a screen for about 10 rounds, then you quit and refund before you ever really learn anything.

[@MougliFGC]

Other people have mentioned that guitar isn't competitive by nature, and it's a fair point. As for seeing online opponents as just a name and not real living people says more about people's view of the internet than it does about the game. That being said, you are right that there is something to be said about the way the community interacts with its beginners compared to other sports, something I hope to discuss in a future video 🙂.

[@kuro9900]

This video reminded me that FGC players doesn't know/remember what is to be a beginner in the genre. Is like how in elementary school you struggle to learn/memorize the multiplication table but as you grow up you just see it as a second nature, to the point that is unthinkable that someone will ever struggle with it. "You don't need to know combos and specials to be good at the game! This veteran guy is winning just by doing normals against those beginners!", maybe the problems that new players are having are not just with other beginners. It's impossible to know something if you don't even know where to begin, and it's even worse when there's nobody that understands what you mean. It's even worse when just to get the basics can take you months.

[@MougliFGC]

There is something to be said about FGC people who forgot they know something that isn't obvious to most. A topic I will cover some day.

[@ComboSmooth]

evo moment 37 just isn't the same without someone yelling "let's go justin" :P

[@PopstarDracula]

For me a fighting game needs A: Fun characters B: Actual players (without begging for games on discord) C: Actual depth Its very hard to find a combo of all 3 of these. You can have dumbed down games ala strive and players or a good game like blazblue and no one to play with. Street Fighter will continue to be ahead of anything else as the only actual 2D series to hit all 3 of these.

[@MougliFGC]

Glad to hear there is a game series that ticks all your boxes :)

[@alariaaurora8456]

they need so much dedication and they don't usually provide quality single player content. if you're good at playing a fighting game then you can enjoy it but if you're not then there's nothing there for you. you either need to git gud or give up. the only exception is super smash which is funnily the only fighting game that i play because it can be fun even if you're bad at it. also the amount of content and variety of characters (most of which are from my favourite gaming franchises) really helped me to enjoy smash even if I'm playing it offline

[@MougliFGC]

Glad there's a game that works for you :)

[@zeehero7280]

the main reason I have to not like fighting games is how far too often a normal controller just wont work for it. the Dpad isnt precise enough and the stick is even worse. you NEED a special controller, not an xbox one.

[@MougliFGC]

A significant number of top level players play on pad. Some pads are better than others, but the Xbox controllers work well enough for me.

[@McWirst]

All of these game analyses and video essays are so bingable. I must say, i am savvy for channels like Shounic for TF2, Marblr for OW, Core-A for fighting games in general, so on.

[@maradonad10s99]

Well, you are assuming many people dislike fighting games because they just have never played any , when in reality they mostly had and just thought the entry barrier for being kinda decent is extremely high for an average gamer trying to just have some fun. In my case, i just hate the fact that i just cannot remember the gazillion moves a character has, or if i do, is because i am just not playing any other game whatsoever, which was the case when i was playing (and was decent) Tekken 3.

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks for sharing your opinion!

[@njnjco]

My friend spread my grey matter across the pavement for 50 hours, and now I'm decent at Street Fighter.

[@josesosa3337]

I like fighting games when I'm doing good. Its always easier to lean on shooters or beat em ups with friends though.

[@elvinmacospag6989]

This speaks to me. I can barely remember optimal combos, or frame data, but wall game? Spacing? Basic whiff punishment? That I can definitely do. I can't really be bothered to practice motion inputs or cancels that much but I still managed to climb SC6's leaderboards with good ol' fundamentals, and this all happened because the character customisation pulled me into the game.

[@thepunisherxxx6804]

They are niche for a reason. The learning curve is like learning an instrument. You have to invest a lot of time and effort and its one of the few game genres where practicing is required. Not everyone wants to dedicate that time, effort, and energy into their hobby. Hardcore gamers kind of forget this lost in the sauce, but games can be very stimulating for the brain and very draining in their own way. If I had a hard day at work its harder to jump on fighting games for a couple hours vs chilling in COD with my brain off. Some gamers love that investment and deep diving into mechanics and labbing. Most don't. I don't think this is fixable its just human nature. I also think fighting games in general can be pretty stale after awhile. Yes the mechanics are deep, but the gametype of just 1v1 offers little variety. Idk what the answer is here, it would be nice to see other modes in fighters invented and more variety in that aspect.

[@MougliFGC]

I take it you haven't watched much of the video based on your comment... There's something to be said about staleness though, and developers have seen that they need to add more content in one way or another (See SF6, TK8 and GBVSR). Whether it's a success is a different story...

[@wisdomcjs250]

Took a long while for me to get into the genre but I love it now. This video missed the key thing that was a barrier for me though. For me being competitive is fun and the beginner phase isn't that enjoyable for any game, it's when to get to intermediate and above where the real reward starts, and with fighting games that beginner stage can be VERY difficult/frustrating to overcome because it often takes a lot of practice to do pretty much anything in these games consistently

[@qu1253]

My biggest hesitation when it comes to fighting games is 3 things: 1) Price. Not only are most fighters released at $60 (soon to become $70), but there's DLC fighters, so add an extra $30-50 for a fighters pass (and some games can have multiple fighters passes) and you're looking at $120+ for one fighting game out of dozens that pretty much all follow the same model. 2) Online functionality in a lot of fighters is incredibly dated. Smash Bros. (the best selling fighting game, ironically) is easily the worst offender with a MINIMUM of 10 frames of input delay on the best possible connection. Shooters figured out back in the 90s that pressing a button and waiting to see your input reflected on screen feels bloody AWFUL, which is why Id Software developed client-side prediction. The fact that most fighters still use delay based netcode just boggles the mind. 3) You're expected to just "know" things. Most fighters give you little information to work with, and in some cases, none at all. Even the ones that do try to teach you things do it in a string of long, boring, arduous tutorials, i.e. the absolute worst way to teach a newbie how to play. Sadly, it seems like neither the FGC nor developers have any interest in solving these issues.

[@MougliFGC]

You should watch my second video which discusses your third point :)

[@MegafanX123]

think the fgs have 5 main problems that if fixed can make everyone happy: 1: Hiding important information This is a problem because fgs have way too much going offscreen. A basic fg will show you only the combo, counter, recovery and one or two system mechanics. (Sf only shows when the combo ends and Tekken doesnt even show counters) When important stuff like incorrect block, punish, chance to escape, plus or minus have 0 way to know if you dont read it somewhere (because even the own game wont tell you). How to fix: simply make like Dual Souls (goated game) and show it 2: Bad movement Walking is kinda sluggish, jump is unsetting and poor explored. Crouch doenst let evade any move. Also in some games you cant even air block! Is kinda hard to explain that for someone who doesnt play fgs. How to fix: Honestely i dont have many ideas, but making air block a standard, allow crouching low profile more standing moves, allow to change your jump direction more like a platformer would be a good start. 3: Confusing animations A lot of moves make no sense. Like a kick that hit your feet hits mid (looking at you Valentine) , and the most overheading thing hitting mid too (looking at you Chipp and Sol from ggac). Not only that, but a Anti Air uppercut, a crouching punch that would be reasonable hitting mid hits low for no reason (looking at every under Night character). Combined with the problems above and below kinda kills the quality. How to fix: Simply make them making sense. And if its too broken make it a littler weaker too. 4: Unbalance between high/low blocking Ok, having 2 types of blocking is kinda bad by itself, but the advantages of one ridiculously outweigh the other. If you stand block you can protect yourself of moves that hit your head a torso but leaves your legs unprotected, and if you crouch block you can protect your torso and legs at the cost of having your head exposed. This sounds balanced on paper, but there are much more low moves than high moves, and most of them dont hit crouching characters. Well, they cant block an air attack so just need to jump and hit them, right? No, because the moment you leave the floor you cant do nothing untill you reach a range that will make every move miss. On top of that lows can be 2 frames while the fastest overhead is 18 frames (makes a huge difference), meaning that you cant punish them safely even if youre plus. A the end this makes the genre very annoying and the pros will take a giant advantage of the begginers because most of them block high. How to fix: Might seem crazy, but i suggest 1 lows should be as fast as an overhead. 2 you should be able to do air attacks faster 5: Punishment for anything You die because you moved foward instead of blocking, then you die because you blocked but got punished. So you jump and die because of that, then attack with a very safe move but you die because of that too. How to fix: I have no idea, honestly 😔

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks for taking the time for sharing your thoughts. I'm not going to get into a deep discussion, but will quickly address your points: 1: I've already discussed this in another video 2: Not really sure what your expectations are when it seems like you have tried a few anime games. 3: Fair point, some games are better at this than others, and sometimes discrepancies are necessary for game balance, but fair point. 4: I've already discussed this in another video. Also, you seem to contradict yourself with your second point about crouching 5: I mean, if you do the wrong thing at the wrong time because you make your decisions based on the last interaction, yeah, it's going to cost you. I still make that mistake myself sometimes. But that's a thing you learn with experience.

[@CurlyHairedRogue]

I just genuinely dislike the repeated crushing losses. I can stand a loss where victory was pulled to and fro for a while, but losing to odds that are categorically unfair doesn’t encourage me to learn. In a game where I’m losing because I don’t know what I’m doing, I ordinarily stick with it until I understand the proverbial “assignment” as it were. Fighting games don’t… really have that. They huck you into piranha infested waters and tell you to try to swim. No matter how often I try to play them, I never walk away feeling competent, or even just like I learned something without feeling so pissed that it wasn’t clearer from the beginning that I can’t ever say: “I’m learning!” Another issue is that with the lack of proficiency comes an internal dialogue that says: “I’m wasting my time here.” If I could be playing a game I already know how to play, or at least have a solid understanding of what I need to do, I’ll choose that one every time. I’m already stressed out because of work, adult life, and general anxiety. Do I _truly_ need another thing to make me sad, angry, and confused all at the same time? TL;DR: what’s the point of learning a skill like fighting games where the frustration outweighs the benefits, the game and community can’t teach me anyway, and it’s clear the game doesn’t want me to enjoy it in the first place? Working for enjoyment in games without actually ever feeling competent is like going to work and not getting paid.

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I have other videos that discuss some of the reasons why the genre feels hostile to beginners and what it could do about it, and I plan on discussing the community aspect of that in the future, in addition to do my part to improve this. For the rest of your argument, while it is a fair observation, it is not unique to fighting games.

[@CurlyHairedRogue]

@@MougliFGC it’s not unique to them, but I encounter it most often with fighting games. Partially because they interest me a lot, despite how frustrating they are. No matter how many of them I try, I always end up walking away feeling like the game is withholding a ton of things from me simply because I can’t engage with the _exact_ learning processes it expects of me.

[@tobebuilds]

Super accurate tbh. I think most problems with fighting games can be worked around, it's just that not everyone wants to have to work to enjoy a game. Nothing wrong with either perspective. Lots of people just want to play games to relax. Others want to play games to develop skills. I just wish fighting games had options for both groups.

[@jaysonrees738]

I tend to have a fast climb, but early plateau with most things. Fighting games demand that the player keep getting better to progress, so stagnation below mid-tier play just doesn't really do it for me. Fortunately, being the jack of all trades is highly rewarded in certain genres.