The paradox of the fighting game genre

[@wake-up720o4]

One distinction I don't see people bringing up anymore that I think is also useful on helping beginners and players in general find a game that suits them is what we used to call 'slow' and 'fast' games. I get people don't like these definitions 'cause they sound like insults, but on what it boils down to, 'slow' games are more deliberate and reactionary with their moves, and 'fast' games are more about forcing an offensive loop until you win. That definition is also not as obvious, is easy to think all classic 2D-fighters are 'slow' and all anime fighters are 'fast', but Guilty Gear always felt very deliberate to me(except the first one), while classic games like KoF or Mortal Kombat feel definitely more about enforcing a loop, specially the more modern iterations. But still, I think this is a good way to define the pace of the game and how you're expected to play it, and help find if it suits or not. Also, I really felt what you meant by playing or not playing the game as it is meant to be. KoF is the most important game series in my upbringing by far, but after really having a miserable experience with XV's beta, I really can't bring myself to have it, even seeing gameplay makes me not want to touch it. I still feel tempted, and bad about not having a game in a franchise that's so important to me, but everything points to it being a terrible idea.

[@MougliFGC]

Yeah, I realised just after finishing the video that I should have mentioned slow/fast 😭.

[@Ph0en1X13]

What problems was in beta of kof XV that you didnt wanna play it anymore?

[@keo_bas]

yeah i had issue with fellow FG player who said their only fast game and rarly slow, and nothing in the middle can i had to correct him on that. In any case fast and slow develop such weired stigma and it sad since i definalty like slow and methodical when i can.

[@wake-up720o4]

@@Ph0en1X13 It was more about not enjoying the gameplay and the game feel than anything. Not really liking the character selection on both betas was part of it, so was seeing people rely on auto-combos more than before, and even though I was one of the people who asked for us to be able to do EX moves outside of Max mode a thing, in practice I felt like it only muddied the waters of meter management. But the worst part was the game feel, which is hard to explain, but I just felt so scrubby when I won, it actually made winning feel worse than losing, and I just didn't want to keep looking for matches after that both times.

[@runefaustblack]

Any slower FGs that you would recommend for a total beginner? Also, I'd prefer if it was a few years old - I have no consoles and my computer is outdated as hell.

[@jakebeansboy3755]

I think the biggest hurdle for new players isn't controls, character mechanics, combs, or any of that (actually i think that's why most people stick with the genre), but the fact that the difficulty is entirely dependent on your opponent. The same goes for other competitive genres, but there you most often have a team to back you up and can roll even if you're not good. But if you and your opponent are both relative beginners, every little bit of info and execution that one has over the other is going to make a world of difference. This is why devs 'lowering the skill gap' so that high-level players don't dominate newbies is silly because a noob isn't going to be matched against Justin Wong. But if two noobs fight and one knows to block on wakeup and the other doesn't, the one who doesn't is much less likely to enjoy that match, let alone win.

[@mariocraft3067]

Yeah, I feel like not enough people mention that the true difficulty of fighting games is how good your opponent is.

[@antonsimmons8519]

In other words "Hell is other people."

[@KoylTrane]

> a noob is never going to be matched again Justin Wong If you play anything other that the latest Street Fighter or Tekken, that's precisely what you get. That's what we get for playing niche games within an already niche genre.

[@jakebeansboy3755]

@@KoylTrane I can understand that, i would love to play older games but everybody is so much better than me. But the latest games in the biggest franchises are naturally gonna be more appealling to new players. Not very many people are gonna play HNK and not expect to get bodied

[@dextrodemon]

i think it's just that you'll lose even if you do well, a lot of the time. you can like practice confirms and all this and someone mashing will still get you because you're not dialed in enough to block someone jumping and sometimes jump kicking and sometimes landing and sweeping. and you'll lose against anyone whose even a little bit better than you. AND everytime you win you still feel like you lost somehow because you know you were lucky, and/or if they were better you wouldn't get away with it lol. so you're like sitting in platnum going like..ah? when do i start winning? lol not personal account at all :/

[@bluehax6]

this might be controversial, but I actually really enjoy that different games have different control schemes, because it allows me to challenge myself with different styles of gameplay, which I like a lot

[@MougliFGC]

Yeah, devs choose those control schemes for a reason. Makes perfect sense for Soulcalibur to have Horizontal Attack button and Vertical Attack button, and both MK's and Tekken's way of splitting buttons are valid.

[@Masque1419]

I honestly don’t know why this would be controversial. It’s just controls, it is what it is for the game it exists in. Now, you could make an argument for a certain control scheme being uncomfortable, or too limiting or non-functional within a particular game. But I don’t think anyone think that whole *genres* of games should have the exact same control scheme. That’s just… boring. And limiting. And completely pointless, like how hard is it really to take in and learn a new control scheme, when you’re already learning an entirely new game with, presumably, at least some other differences between it and other games within its “genre”.

[@irasac1]

I see what you mean but i don't feel like i'll ever get used to a block button.

[@dragonmaster3030]

@@irasac1 I dunno man, block buttons just feel weird for me to use. Virtua fighter 5 and mk gives me headache because of that

[@irasac1]

@@dragonmaster3030 yup ikr? I was always a tekken player since i was a kid so when i do play MK i never block i just play footsies lol or a zoner character

[@KoylTrane]

I have to say, finding the right game is very important. i've been enjoying BBTAG a lot because I don't have to worry about hitconfirms. And I don't have to worry about that in Samsho either, landing Darli's 5C activate all my neurons.

[@calfriedman6981]

Oh, why don't you have to worry about hitconfirms in BBTAG? I don't know much about it.

[@KoylTrane]

@@calfriedman6981 because your primary buttons, A and B got designated Smart Combos. Like, the whole game is built around them. Uou can get a couple of hits with a part of A combo, cancel it into some Bs and finish it with a special. Of course it's all character specific.

[@aidanoswald5034]

I also picked up BBTAG on sale recently too and I read the negative reviews which mostly boiled down to "I wish the controls were harder" and thought "I could live with that" As someone who probably became unhealthily obsessed with hard inputs in other games, as in not registering in my head that "harder=/=better/more practical" It's a nice chance to focus on something I've neglected.

[@gxqx797]

Its cool if you enjoy it but... if your reasoning for enjoying it is solely because you don't have to hit confirm then that's just a pussy move. I couldn't hit confirm shit a few years ago. But I played.. and played some more... and played again and got better. Anyone can hit confirm man you just need to put the work in. I just find it strange you would not play a game you may otherwise enjoy simply because it has hit confirms and apparently you can't hit confirm lol

[@KoylTrane]

@@gxqx797 it's not the only reason I enjoy BBTAG, by the less I spend time in the lab - the better.

[@greensky5328]

Feel like both devs and players have been looking at fighting games in outdated way in part due to the genres roots in arcades. Namely the memorization/learning curve isn't really talked about (But more accepted.), so recognizing the difference between high and low damage games and few and many touch games is huge, (Took me way too long to get used to fighterz and watching my friends play I had no clue what to do since I was coming from ABK and Melty.). Watching someone do a long combo in BBTag or DBFZ can be intimidating though I personally think now that those games are fairly accessible in the grand scheme of things. Thank you for being the voice we need with these vids.

[@Zakaker]

I actually think low-damage games are better for beginners because they give them more time to learn the matchup in a single game. Most people play online and don't bother with more than a couple rematches, so in high-damage games they'll either destroy the opponent or get destroyed by knowledge checks and won't have enough time to understand what to do before they get thrown into another match with a different opponent who plays in a completely different way. IMO the immense number of knowledge checks beginners have to go through before getting to play the "real" game is the number one factor that causes them to quit fighting games early. High-damage games help them _be_ the knowledge-checker, but definitely don't help them learn the game.

[@brightmamba889]

I have been really considering starting a channel/community to get more people into fighting games. People are missing out on some great video game experiences. Nothing is more empowering than being solely responsible for your wins and losses.

[@MougliFGC]

Go for it!

[@versatilelord8893]

Hell yes bro. Fighting games are some of the very best experiences gaming has to offer And the FGC is absolutely phenomenal

[@gwen9939]

This was actually really good, and I'm mostly acting surprised because of how small this channel is. I really liked the point about different control, which I don't think is a perspective that's offered enough. I agree that the genre is in large part defined by it being a very tactile genre, and messing with new controls and acquiring new muscle memory when learning a new game or character is an important aspect of the genre. Simultaneously I think it's a big reason why a casual audience is more drawn to games like Smash or you could even make the comparison to MOBAs and their massive rosters. Despite having way more characters and interactions to track, the universal controls means the way that you engage with the game through your choice of character is much more akin to how you engage with an FPS through your choice of weapon(or class). You can mostly trust what is going to happen by moving your mouse and pressing the same keys you do for every character, whereas in fighting games you don't even get that immediate familiarity. Instead it's like learning how to ride a bike over and over again, except this time the pedals move the other way, or the wheels turn the opposite direction, the handle is upside down, and so on, until you get intimate with the learning process itself, not the thing you're learning. This feels frustrating and like a lot of effort for players who just want to go for a ride, but it's also what makes every new game feel very different despite all sharing the same system concepts(meter, health bar, damage scaling, frame data, blocking, combos, and so on), and what makes playing a fighting game feel like a healthy workout for your brain.

[@zepugmasterpug9188]

Maximilian Dood actually made a video about different games resembling a food and it makes perfect sense lol. It's pretty cool how so similar yet so complex fighting games are.

[@banalsandwitch4002]

Bro got footage of every fighting game ever

[@ItzTymeToDul]

The fast growth of your channel is great. Your editing is food

[@tz_toast_rider]

Very minor thing but seeing a Samurai Shodown VI clip toward the beginning put a smile on my face.

[@EzKay_PX]

Not gonna lie, will never regret getting into fighting games, even if I can only play one rn for budget reasons (ahem, Melty AACC) it’s been probably the most fulfilling gaming experience I’ve ever had and I still am an absolute beginner with 0 good tourney runs. And tbh, I can’t wait to try other fighting games after I am able to

[@dj_koen1265]

Melty aacc is a great game tho And i think its quite beginner friendly too And its free! More people should play it

[@McdonaldKnight]

"So there are Few/many touches fighting games" me that very rarely learn combos : Ah yes it's my 9th touch and the opponent finally died.

[@marin9412]

Seeing dorohedoro in the “rewatch” section made me smile

[@GiRR007]

Something you mentioned in this that I also noticed is that for fighting games there is a kind of prior knowledge that is required for each individual game as to its intricacys that go beyond the simply basic game functions. Things like how to perform combos for specific characters counters to certain attacks ect. Alot more things you wouldn't be able to figure out before hand and have to actively look for compared to other game genres. I wonder why.

[@MougliFGC]

Check out my other videos and wonder no more ;)

[@mariocraft3067]

Subscribed, this was a great video. Some inconsistensies with fighting games frustrate me (like what is and isn’t an overhead) while others I really enjoy like using cr.HP to sweep as Makoto. It just feels so good to me to sweep with a different button and see a different kind of sweep animation than usual.

[@seldomsadsam]

Great video again! Clear and concise Can't wait to see how you tackle the upcoming series

[@odekoeodekoe5646]

Awesome video ! It was clear, interesting and thought provoking. I hope your videos manage to reach a wide audience !

[@MaoriGamerDood]

I've been playing many many many fighting games for a long time. The way u articulated this subject is spot on. We have many to choose from. That's the big thing. Choosing. Let these games be there thing and if it's for u good. If it isn't u have more options to try.

[@freili11]

Inconsistent controls are something that reduces my enjoyment of fighting games as someone who started about 8 months ago and can't seem to stick to one game and one character. A huge part of the fun is having certain responses come instinctively and feeling that control of your character and the situation. I can't build that connection to a character when I play over 30 characters across 10 different games. But that's my fault. You don't learn 30 characters in 8 months just like you don't learn 30 instruments in 8 months.

[@guynamedrick4419]

Yeah my main problem with fighting games isn't losing badly it's just the controls

[@Ohmargod]

That's one reason why Dragonball FighterZ is such a big success. Every character uses the same basic controls, has similar combos and easily accessible supers. It is the perfect easy to learn, hard to master game. I can effortlessly body my friends with every character, but as soon as I go to ranked matches, I need my Nappa/Jiren/Yamcha.

[@MGNashi]

The way I fixed having this problem is playing 1 character per controller per game. For instamce I play SF with my keyboard. Tekken with a fight stick And DNF with a controller. It allows me to have a steady progressiom across all games because Im not getting mixed up between games and characters.

[@danielisbell]

I'm a long time casual fighting game player. Grew up on early Mortal Kombat, transitioned to Tekken, added in Smash and Soul Calibur. Your discussion of time to kill and contacts to kill totally changed my how I think about the genre. I love low level Tekken. The 1 button per limb setup and the general approach to fights feels good for me. I hate high level play though (at least in the games I saw it. May be different now). A good player can start a juggle that takes over half your health. It killed my interest in taking the game more seriously. Now I'm in interested in checking out some games that don't lead to loss from one to 2 openings. I know there are a ton of series that I haven't even touched.

[@Warlockhound]

as someone who watches a lot of fighting games but doesn't play them the thing that keeps me from enjoying playing fgs is it's hard to learn from your mistakes, the way I like to get gud in games is just playing the game, trying stuff and see what works and what doesn't. but in fgs I feel like i have no way of knowing what I did wrong and how to play better without spending time in the training mode and reading frame data sheets.

[@MougliFGC]

I have a video about this ;)

[@ccoddes]

I'm not sure about the other fighting games, but Tekken 7 definitely has a replay feature which stores all your replays for the past few matches. Watching them will show you if you failed to punish an opponent's moves, if you could duck a certain move etc. You can even see all the opponent's inputs. It's a good way to learn from mistakes for me.

[@MougliFGC]

@@ccoddes I also have a video about this :D

[@Drebin1989]

@@ccoddes most fighting games have a replay feature.

[@abdulkodirrahman]

Same problem with me. I don't have time to learn about active frame, invincible frame, etc. You'll always lose to whoever know that knowledge. I enjoyed console version SF 2, MK Trilogy, Tekken 3 as a kid playing the games at family gathering, unlocking the contents through single player mode, etc. I don't buy SF 5 because unlocking contents tied to online currency which you get fairly amount by playing online vs stranger (or pay the stuff which is overpriced)

[@cabaio1732]

I'd argue one big reason high damage games are better for beginners and for the health of the genre in general is that (Excluding ranked in some capacities and tournaments) Restarting a game gives the beginner a fairer chance. If we exclude how much it stings to be 0 - bignumbah restarting a game is a new chance to play fairly without the opponent having extra meter or positional advantage. I can see one big obstacle that beginners face in high damage is actually getting the damage and not the stray inconsequential hits which can and should be ironed out with practicing and fighting people on the same level

[@yasuke267]

I'm glad the algorithm showed me your channel. As you stated in one of your earlier videos, you may be a new player, but you make really good essays. You make strong points, and seeing your input from your level is something the community needs to see. Keep up the good work!

[@RadiantNinja]

I'm a veteran MK/NRS player & competitor. You can verify my reknown in that community, look me up, I compete under DjinnMonk. I have some video of me on DesteoyerFGC proving my skill in some of his tournaments w/ results shown, I'm proud at my status in that community, and MK may have been the reason I became an FGC dude in general, but I rarely play NRS nowadays. Coming from your flagship game & seeing your progress develop in uncharted waters, fighters you were always intimidated to play (as an NRS learned FGC player, Street Fighter and Tekken scared the shit out of me for years.) But one day I made it out of bronze in SFV, learned to comfortably & reliably execute charge commands, and the day I realized I'm not just competent at playing high level NRS & developed general fundamentals in another game, I can never tell you anything else that comes close to feeling as good as that or winning my first grand final at a local. I cried when I won't that tourney that day as I reached my hand out to my skilled opponent I almost gave the W too but ended up pulling through to shake his hand and tell him good game. Him & everyone looked at me funny and that's when I smiled and told them they'll never realize how much I'm grateful for the experience I just had because of everyone there and there's no way I'll ever forget them. Play fighting games. Fucking play these games. Get into this genre. I'd regret it & my life would not have nearly as much meaning if I never got into MK & fighting games as a whole at a high level that one day .

[@MougliFGC]

Thank you for sharing your story!

[@RadiantNinja]

@@MougliFGC thank you for making content. We both wish for the same thing. Everyone to experience how amazing the FGC is.

[@MrCactuar13]

I've been watching your vids since your first upload and appreciate your fresh perspective on the fgc. Been sharing them all with my group as well. Keep up the amazing work

[@firehammock3021]

That was an interesting point about about how most shooters play with WASD + mouse, while Fighters swap depending on the game. Good Video!

[@Envy973]

Great video! I never subscribed so fast

[@Biouke]

Keeping the video in mind and reading some comments, I'd like to point that while control schemes differ between fighting games more than between other games within other genres, there is some sort of FG literacy which is knowledge of general fighting mechanics : Positioning, attack frames, reading the opponent... There are even some staples as the inputs for moves in 2D fighters, etc. I witnessed it numerous times as I'm a pretty casual and average player yet I've been playing different fighting games since I was a kid and whenever I get someone who's not used to it into playing a fighting game, even one that's also new to me, I have a considerable advantage. Another thing that I've come to realise by getting friends to FGs is that people learn a lot faster when they've got mentoring, obviously. I think with online play being a basic feature nowadays there could be a special matchmaking queue putting experience players as volunteer mentors against newbies, so they can explain the basics while playing. I know it's pretty satisfying when after an afternoon of playing against someone while explaining to them how things works they start to get good. That's also a good exercise to reflect on your bad habits because after a few matches you can become predictable and get punished hard by your pupil :)

[@MougliFGC]

Yes, but the video wasn't about what is the same, but about what is different :) And good point about mentoring, I'll talk about it some day.

[@stasyandr563]

i like how it's "embrace the chaos" and Happy Chaos smiles

[@luan.galaxy]

I never click youtube video essays because most of them are made by people who clearly have no understanding of the topic, but I think you made some very reasonable observations/points without trying to act like you solved the mystery equation. Great job

[@JamKyt9]

I wish we could just get a new fighting game franchise and genre that has characters that play like they're from a different type of fighting game each

[@MougliFGC]

Like smash ultimate?

[@ColinLack]

Damage and feel wise I like Dead or Alive, SoulCalibur and The King of Fighters. Not really sure what each would be classed as. Keep up the good work man I'm enjoying your content as always!

[@versatilelord8893]

Good choices bro You’ll probably really enjoy virtua fighter as well if you enjoy doa But as far as 3D fighters go I mainly stick with soul cal and tekken lol

[@ColinLack]

@@versatilelord8893 thanks

[@TBDEventually]

I love the whole ryu, ken akuma, evil ryu, ken thing. I like having a base character with stuff stacked on top that allows for so much variation

[@JAMllostthegame]

9:19 - Shout outs to Touhou Hisoutensoku for getting me into fighting games beyond Smash lmao

[@exowodia68]

Wow, that was fast. As always thx for the awesome video, i really appreciate the editing effort and the pertinence of your arguments. Looking forward to the tutorial vids :)

[@bohdanherasymenko7569]

I am a FG beginner and the most difficult thing for me was finding fun in fighting. It is understandable that games are very deep and that they give you many tools to express yourself, but as a new guy you don't see this yet. Just as if you were always playing with Lego and now somebody gave you something completely different. How do I assemble pieces? What fits together and what doesn't? My personal fun is exploration and search for these things But games rarely spoon feed you these things, teaching you how to combine things on your own later. Usually it's a basic wall of text, maybe list of combos and off you go You're thrown into ocean and you have to learn to swim while constantly drowning. Not fun

[@MougliFGC]

My first video talks about this.

[@supermahmoud]

I do indeed love to have multiple experiences in different fighting games, rather than being a pro in 1 or 2 games/series, that's why I'm constantly trying obscure and unknown fighting games on any console I have, even arcade via emulators, I just love discovering them!

[@aramondehasashi3324]

Really been enjoying your videos @1:53 Always happy to see Last Blade in videos. @9:53 I loved BC2, you have good taste my friend.

[@thepear6684]

Your Channel will blow up with SF6, T8 and MK12🔥

[@brandonreyes6702]

To anyone reading this and is new to fighting games, hell yesss!! We need this more mainstream please.

[@G1antTeddyBear]

In the video you said you had 1500 subs, now it's over doubled. It's cool to see your channel growing, hopefully you can keep up the great content. I feel like I've tainted my own learning experience of any fighting game because of how I tried to learn SFV. I have 60 hours in the game, 50 of those were in the lab, and the rest was in arcade/story. I spent probably 5 - 10 min fighting other players at the very end. I hit no anti-airs, no combos, no grabs. I got zero positive feedback. It felt like I had learned nothing and wasted my time. I haven't touched the game since. Now when I see a fighting game, all I can think of is that I don't want to waste my time again, and I don't even bother trying.

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks! And sorry to hear that. Many people are misled into thinking they need to spend tons of time into the lab before their first online game, but nobody tells them that the lab won't teach them the neutral game.

[@Cambiony]

I think instead of focusing on number of touches it could be useful to focus on how those touches convert into combos. Like in Strive or Fantasy Strike, you have a lot of touches/pokes that don't lead into a proper combo normally, where as in in games like DBFZ you have a lot of ways to turn very far hits into big combos. The difference between these is so big that I don't generally even hear "number of touches"-talk when it comes to games with more limited conversions.

[@MougliFGC]

I might not have explained it properly in the video, but the implication was that for the purpose of that conversation, only converted touches were considered.

[@scorpionsen4302]

Love the content! Just realized I have watched every video so far. Amazing videos and topics, can't wait for more! ❤️

[@lessthanbrilliant3672]

Well done. Useful info for beginners and an opportunity for those of us in the FGC to take a moment and appreciate all the diversity we sometimes take for granted. Speaking of which, I haven’t played any first person shooters. Do they really all have the same controls? No one tries to innovate or differentiate?

[@MougliFGC]

There are some differences: some games have iron sights, some don't. Some games have secondary fire, some don't. Some games have additional movement options, but by and large, the basics are similar enough that if you've played another shooter, you likely won't need a tutorial to know how to move/shoot and start scoring kills. Where those games differentiate themselves is in system mechanics or game modes.

[@Biouke]

Vos vidéos et votre accent sont parfaits, M. Hauteville! C'était l'instant chauvin, ça fait plaisir de voir un représentant de notre coin de la FGC ;)

[@kryzethx]

I would say that the biggest deterrent for me to play anything other than platform fighters is the number of attack buttons, and the control stick requirements. In Smash and Multiversus, you just have the two buttons, Attack and Special, which you combine with 4 directional inputs, either on the ground or in the air, and they generally do what you expect: forward plus attack is forward facing attack, down plus attack is a downward facing attack, and up plus special is an upward recovery move. Some characters are slightly different (especially the ones from other fighting games...), but for the most part, it's very simple. Other fighting games however.. as soon as you need to remember HOW to even do an attack (like quarter circle forward) is where the game loses me. Probably the biggest disconnect for me is that the control stick should be used for moving the character, but once you need to zig-zag it back and forth to execute an attack... I just can't understand it. If I have to study a catalogue of possible attacks, and how to execute them, in a heated real-time battle.. it's just too much information to handle in a short time. Maybe this is because most of these series either came from, or were inspired by games which came from, an earlier time, when people were expected to read the manual to understand how to play the game, but that time is long gone. Also I hate games where blocking isn't just performed by using a shield button. It feels very awkward to press backward or start crouching when you want to block an attack. That's another benefit to Smash; you have a very simple triangle of mechanics, where shield beats attacks, grab beats shield, and attack beats grab. Another very simple to understand. You can basically learn everything you need to play Smash in just two minutes through the intro videos from Melee and Brawl.

[@MougliFGC]

Glad there is a type of fighting game that suits your preferences :)

[@goranisacson2502]

This is a very interesting comment to me mostly by virtue of how my own likes are the very opposite of them. I think that the attitude of "we are no longer in the age of reading manuals" is a little off since the games do have tutorials that teach you a lot of what the moves do, and even nowadays there are many people who write guides or make guide videos on how to pull off advanced techniques and maneuvers that aren't immediately obvious, even in games like Smash... but I get the gist of what you're saying. Not so much "we're no longer in an age where games should have advanced or hidden mechanics!", as that would be tremendously boring, but rather "newcomers to the genre cannot be expected to memorize a set of motion input-variants combined with buttons, that all varies per character, when every other game in nearly every other genre tries their best to connect ONE button to ONE action". I can understand this sentiment even if I find it sad, since I am a massive fan of the many possibilities the movement input-based fighters have, with say, every projectile in a street fighter game having three different possible iterations depending on which button you press at the end of the combo. Smash for WiiU / 3DS tried doing that but you had to preselect the attack before the fight even started, in games like Street Fighter you just have those moves available at all times, whenever you want to pull them off. I feel almost like the ideal, naive path I'd like to see going forward would be a "For Fun / For Glory" split in games but where For Fun has the kind of immediate, one button to one move controls in games like Smash that's varied up by moving the stick in a cardinal direction while pressing buttons at most, and For Glory has the old-school controls that offers up far more variety and options... but that would probably be VERY expensive to make and divide the fanbase and make it so you probably have even less people to fight against when you go online.

[@MougliFGC]

@@goranisacson2502 As it happens, the casual/ranked modes in Smash 4 were literally called "For Fun" and "For Glory" respectively.

[@goranisacson2502]

@@MougliFGC I'm aware, that was the reference I was going for :)

[@kryzethx]

@@goranisacson2502 I guess I just prefer games that are "easy to learn, tough to master", like Smash. I feel like most other fighting games have a relatively high barrier to entry, to even feel like you're really in control, and not just mashing buttons and directions. What you mention about a "for fun" method of control actually does sound fun and helpful. Though I can see how those problems might arise.. if only..

[@sylascole5254]

Just wanted to say I'm a big fan of your channel and your takes, but one thing you do, which is including footage from a WIDE variety of games (NRS, Capcom, Arcsys, and a whole lot more) from many different eras really shows a lot of genuine love for fighting games as a whole genre, and not just your favorite title. If you had a Patreon I'd kick a few bucks your way, the FGC direly needs content creators like you!

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks for the kind words!

[@fl0wey57]

One thing I was thinking when comparing the two new fighting games I’m into: Killer Instinct and Tekken 7, is that both are fast in different ways. As a Rash player, I don’t have many special buttons and only one starter, so most combos boil down to varying up input to not get combo breaked, but I have to be fast on input, specially in lights, to not drop it. Also have to factor my shadow and instinct meter. As a Lidia player, I still need to have a lot of muscle memory for her 80+ moves so that, when time comes, I should have the input ready, what what can I combo or stagger with that move, and the following input. I may not have a bar, but I have to watch out for the 3D movement and low-mid-high pressure. Pretty wild to play the matchmaking of these games back to back, now that I think about it.

[@elcugo]

Great video. I think there is a fundamental issue on considering all fighting games in the same genre. In FPS' it makes sense since all of their gameplay roughtly approximate to pointing your crossairs over your enemies and clicking, this is what mice were made for. Fighting games are more like RPGs, nobody realizes that Fallout 4 and the Witcher 3 had very different control schemes even though they are both "Role Playing Games" they are too different.

[@MougliFGC]

Even FPS have clearly defined sub-genres: tac-shooters, battle royale, extraction shooters, so maybe you're onto something.

[@zoromax10]

I was today years old when I realized Giovanna's Air super isn't an overhead ...I main Giovanna well, thanks for saving me from future stress

[@GiovanniSponzaJJ]

Really nice topic and video, keep it up!

[@bang_3770]

Great Video

[@thepear6684]

Your Videos are crazy good🔥

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

Very interesting video as always!!

[@javianbrown8627]

Hope to see a video covering input types in the future as multiple gaming genres have this issue including fighting games and sometimes for the pettiest of reasons. Despite the fact that in any game you'll find players in top 100 using a mixture of input types

[@MougliFGC]

What do you mean by input types?

[@javianbrown8627]

@@MougliFGC controller of choice, whether keyboard, controller, hitbox/mixbox, racing wheel, arcade stick etc

[@MougliFGC]

@@javianbrown8627 I'll consider it if it's a topic I find myself diving into, but right now I'm happy playing on gamepad.

[@Yxazel]

Imagine having a character that has a low hitting fireball in his DP motion, yeah, its feels as it sounds

[@Nyagro]

As someone who vehemently dislikes the direction the devs took with Guilty Gear Strive and its heavy homogenization of the characters, I really appreciate your video giving a more nuanced take and shedding light on aspects important to choosing a game you like. Many points aren't brought up in combination with that by other people. That being said, the point of "skill transfer between different fighting games" isn't an issue in any way as it applies to pretty much any genre. Even Shroud, who is among the gods of FPS', seemed helpless when he first started playing Rainbow Six Siege and that's normal. Just because a genre might share a very broad common aspect, it doesn't mean that the skills you learn will all transfer over. And it'd be pretty boring if that was the case, like you also mentioned.

[@MougliFGC]

I suppose that the point I was trying to make is that it feels more relevant in fighting games because people are more likely to go back and forth between games. But admittedly it might just be the price to pay for that diversity.

[@bekomon]

Excellent video and very well articulated.

[@supersharpgamer]

So, what's the point of having a variety of fighting games if they were all the same? I think the wide variety of fighting games that play differently is a good thing. Also, a little bit of gatekeeping is a good thing. If you don't like fighting games as they are now, they really aren't for you probably.

[@MougliFGC]

I believe I have mentioned variety being a good thing at the end of the video.

[@cabaio1732]

Ahahahah, part of what i like of playing so many fighting games is that they feel so different even on a dexterity level. tho it'd be dope if i didn't try to parry in sfv or i didn't have the grab two buttons in wildly different places. Still, it might be bothering at first but engaging any game at their quirkyness prolongs the learning path of the game and make games last longer

[@MougliFGC]

The number of times I have the good sense to throw, only to use the throw input from another game...

[@dextrodemon]

i think all this stuff has been very well discussed and thought about and acted upon in the industry. also there's a tendency to compare to fps, which i don't think really makes sense, fps games are all very mechanically similar because they're all about clicking on heads the best, whoever click the head, win the game, basically all other genres are more complex than that mechanically.

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks for commenting!

[@Arcterran]

Per Genre Fighting games made the most sense to me as emulating head to head martial arts competitions in some form and given there's more ways to punch guys than pointing and shooting people the inconsistencies make sense (That's not a knock against firearms, its the real reason why it rose to primacy, you don't have to train and physically condition your troops nearly as hard to wield a gun vs a sword, spear, or bow, Real warfare is ultimately about logistics). Boxing, Karate, Fencing, and Wrestling all have far different styles but more or less the same ends and I think there's a similar dynamic with Fighting game subgenres. I'd actually prefer to contrast fighting games to the beat em up, kind of a sister genre of the Fighting game which instead tries to emulate Martial arts as Hollywood/Hong Kong envisions em, yes you are punching/kicking dudes with different characters with different styles, and maybe even throw fireballs with a command input and of course combos (Look up some Streets of rage 4 full combos for some true insanity) but despite that Beat em ups have clear difference in focus. Mainly designed around 1:M type fights so while you do have to counterplay individuals, dealing with the CPU controlled mob in aggregate is usually more important in these games. I'm not arguing either is superior by the way, I think its a more useful comparison if you want to pin down what a Fighting game is and genre expectations. My personal preferences for the record are more Neutral based fighters and very easy to grasp options. Two reasons 1) The easier it is to grasp whats going on, the easier you can formulate an effective gameplan (I also think intuitive and unobtrusive controls matter here the less you go "I meant to do X!" the better) 2) I find the interesting bits of fighting games are the clash of moment to moment decision making between both players, and not just in the Neutral game, but also in ALL aspects (offense/defense, so I prefer oki based advantages over combo based because combo based advantages rely on taking away that moment-to-moment decision making either offensively or defensively with a less than-intuitive mechanic, oki keeps both players engaged through the entire gameflow I find). GCN Soul Calibur 2 is the king of my preferences and no contest is my favorite fighting game of all time. SC's mechanics are for the most part very easy to intuit and execute relative to other games in the genre and rarely have commands overlapping each other. The RPS "Horizontal/Vertical/8-way" system plus that game's advantage state is Oki based with a very easy to grasp and execute defensive options means I'm fighting the game less and I'm fighting the other guy more. Bonus points for some varied stages (Though DoA4 has my favorite stages in any fighting game ever because DoA Actually feels like I'm fighting through an actual place vs a glorified box/cub), solid art and sound direction, and a masterpiece of a soundtrack. Plus it actually has amazing single player content for the genre and the fact that Link is in the roster helps (But he's not my main! That'd go to Mitsurugi!). To be fair I totally get the appeal of the wacky combo heavy nonsense of something like a DNF Duel (Which I still respect in a lot of ways), mechanically layered and style heavy like Guilty gear (and hey I still blast the soundtrack out every now and again!), or technically rich like KoF but at the end of the day thats what works for me and to quote a guy I introduced to Samsho 2019 to a couple days back "I feel like I'm actually playing the game".

[@versatilelord8893]

You sir get a major shout from me just for introducing somebody to samurai showdown lol

[@Arcterran]

@@versatilelord8893*Tosses sword in the air and catches it in the sheath*

[@olzarius]

Great video dude

[@tidou768]

I didn't expect french in this video mais bien joué parce que ça m'a donné envie de regarder la suite 😅

[@johnpreston230]

merci pour cette video Mougli

[@AegisRick]

If you have to press several buttons at once in Tekken it's because it uses all those limbs. 1+2 is both arms. 3+4 is both legs. 1+4 is probably a left arm right leg combination. etc. It's the only game I know where you can almost intuit the input of a move without ever having played the character.

[@MougliFGC]

That would be nice, but the clip on screen when I talk about this shows it isn't true.

[@Gilthwixt1]

Subbed. Looking forward to watching your channel grow. As far as inconsistency/variance in fighting games go, Sajam recently did a video on character archetypes and I think there's potential to go more in depth on that too. Basically reposting my comment from that vid, but there's a lot of overlap with some archetypes and playstyles and no consensus on definitions. Stuff like "Is Abigail a Grappler or is he a Brawler?" and "If Sagat isn't a Shoto then why do Guilty Gear players call Ky Guilty Gear's Shoto?". And then there's the inconsistency between moveset and playstyle (all of the Shotos share similar movesets but play very differently from each other), or how Cammy shares the same health as Akuma but isn't a "Glass Cannon" the way Akuma is since she's still primarily a rushdown character. Idk if it's a topic you'd be interested in diving into but I'd love to see the FGC try and nail down these concepts with strict definitions while debating them.

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks for the suggestion and for the sub! I'm not sure I have something to say about archetypes that hasn't already been well covered by other creators, but I'll keep it in mind :)

[@8bit_pineapple]

Tekken 7 was the first fighting game I've played properly. I'm at 2,300 hours now 😅. I'm not sure I'd play another fighting game. Going from 3D game mostly stand blocking and sidestepping, to a 2D game mostly ducking guarding and jumping around seems like a big difference.

[@PUNCHEDPUNCHEDPUNCHED]

I just like to encapsulate it as "same shit different smell"

[@kholdkhaos64ray11]

I don't think characters having different controls between them is necessarily a difficulty thing. I personally think it's a way to give the game more accessibility options while still providing a unique gameplay spin. As someone who grew up not liking traditional motion inputs, I gravitated towards charge characters and grapplers because holding back and thrusting forward, spinning the stick, or even just abusing their normals worked for me specifically for a long time before I felt like giving other characters a shot. Also you probably weren't saying or implying this but I feel like I have to state that fighting games aren't the only genre that changes controls from game to game. I always personally like to check if a racing game is "press a to accelerate" or "press trigger to accelerate" I used to think it was only kart racers vs racing sims respectively, but all of Sonic's racing games (minus Riders even though THAT'S completely unique in control) flip that on its head. Then there's Kirby Air ride (a racing game made for being very accessible) where normally vehicles automatically accelerate but a few have to be charged in order to go. There are other games I could site for control variance like action games with multiple characters but this comment is getting too long and I doubt people will read this far if at all lol

[@MougliFGC]

Interesting point about control differences in characters as an accessibility feature. And yeah, you have game to game variance in other genres too but it doesn't feel as pronounced as it is in fighting games. And some standards bleed over other genres. Nowadays most action games that include driving will use the triggers to accelerate/brake, and many games with guns will use the trigger to shoot. As an anecdote, a few years ago at GDC, I asked one of the God of War 2018 designers why the default control scheme had the attacks on the shoulder buttons, and they replied that because the camera was setup more like a third person shooter, it just made sense. While I disagreed with that take and played the game with classic controls, that was the thinking that went into their design choice, and it goes to show how deep the standardisation goes in other genres (for better or worse).

[@darkdudeman99]

There is also the aspect of open and closed systems. It’s hard to describe but the newer games are very guilty of making closed systems. There seems to be only one way to play because it was designed that way. A character could have 50 moves but only 2 are viable because the way the game is designed. Or there is no reward for defense, they want to see crazy over the top combos and only aggression is rewarded. A good example of an open game is Third Strike, both aggressive offense and strong defense is rewarded. There is more than one way to play the game and all of the moves are viable. By the way I enjoyed the part we’re you mentioned putting down the controller while on the receiving end of a combo.

[@MougliFGC]

Interesting, I definitely feel that with GBVS. LordKnight recently released a video about player expression that goes into that topic a bit.

[@dreamwelch8100]

true and the fact is that fighting games are difficult games, basically games are designed to relieve stress but the fact is that fighting games are not relaxing games Like these KZbinrs say there are too many variables in fighting games and we have to study them (it looks really boring when you think about it because the mechanism of each fighting game is always different) The fighting game genre really doesn't need to be debated, we as fighting game players already know what the characteristics of a fighting game are like👀

[@MougliFGC]

Maybe, but this video's target audience is mainly people who are considering getting into the genre.

[@Gabrol]

I call "high/low damage" as "power level", anyways, great video!

[@greena5sas5in4]

great video and you got a new sub. i think it would have been good to talk a little bit more on 4 button fighters with a special button. just point how they varied they can be or how similar they can be with some examples like dragon ball being a projectile and granblue having different moves.

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks! I alluded to it by saying the fourth button did ...something, didn't think it was worth going into more detail.

[@Do_It_Mix_Tho]

Love your channel bro, Can you talk about controllers next? Most people i talk to think that their skill is based on controller. Also play Melty Blood

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks! I only play pad, so I'm not sure if I have the right experience to talk about controllers, but I'll keep the suggestion in mind. I guess I didn't put a Melty Blood clip in this time. Mostly interested in AACC than TL tbh, but I'll probably get it on sale.

[@brandonreyes6702]

whats un fortunate, is there will be games in which you love the art style/character but not the gameplay, and vise verse. but to that i say , play both when u get to a level where u can play more than one fighting games.

[@DaPhenomAce]

I started playing Tekken in the summer and had a blast. Tried to hop on KOF XV in October and it was a rude awakening. I still am not close to being decent in that game. I still want to get good, but yeah the learning curve from one fighting game to another is up there for sure

[@mariocraft3067]

To be fair, those two games are about as different as it gets, aside from emphasis on movement, which they do in very different ways. It would be much easier, for example, to transition from Kof XV to SFV

[@sebastiandelvillarmontoya1447]

@@mariocraft3067 that would be worse, SFV is a game about spacing while KOF is a game about movement, Tekken is another game about movement but it's handled very different.

[@mariocraft3067]

@@sebastiandelvillarmontoya1447 Fair point, but consider the amount of pure mechanical similarities between SF and KOF (being traditional 2d and all) as opposed to tekken. Kof also requires a great understanding of spacing, but in a different way facilitated by the movement.

[@yeetkunedo]

I tend to think in terms of “high stack” and “low stack,” whether physical or mental in nature. Most anime fighters are high stack, as they tend to require an emphasis on rushdown tactics and a consistent chain of attacks meant to juggle and opponent for as long as possible or as much damage as possible. Meanwhile, most older fighters (or even some new ones like Samurai Shodown 2019) are focused more on careful spacing and movement with short combos that deal large amounts of damage, requiring less execution and constant action. These are low stack games. Many low stack games can be played with high stack techniques, many high stack games can be played with low stack application of techniques, but for the most part, these terms tend to be how I find myself defining most fighting games, regardless of subgenre.

[@MougliFGC]

Interesting split, thank you for sharing!

[@kap1117]

I like low damage games more as it gives you more time to figure out your opponent, while its easy to just get wiped and knowledge checked without enough time to adapt in high damage games

[@MougliFGC]

Did you mean you like low damage games?

[@kap1117]

@@MougliFGC oh yea lol. Idk how I mixed them up that bad

[@murkywaters5502]

Great video!

[@ctdxii8007]

Great video, you're continuing to knock them out of the park! Very quick question though, what's the game shown @0:49 after Kill La Kill? My google fu is failing me profoundly

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks! That gamea is Senko No Ronde.

[@ctdxii8007]

@@MougliFGC Thank you! Between writing my message and your reply it occurred to me searching the character names on screen plus move list, which did the trick. but in case anyone else is curious!

[@HeirofDacia]

I actually find the different control schemes and button layouts enjoyable (except for the travesty that is having a dedicated block button), since I don't want every game to feel the same. Imagine Street fighter with 3 attack buttons (which will be a reality with 6's modern controls, lmao), or Tekken with VF's 2 attack buttons.

[@MougliFGC]

That's fair.

[@Emerald3ME]

The only control scheme I don't enjoy is when block is mapped to a button instead of holding back.

[@MougliFGC]

It's a good thing there are other games for you to play, then :)

[@OfficialYoutubeOfKFC]

I was confused on the word Jaw until I had to read Genre.

[@hotlean]

Mi amor quote "same difference"

[@SniperNo9]

i liked this video cause you showed "waku waku 7"

[@djukor]

I love fighters but i accepted the fact im garbage at touch of death long combos games. What i love the most are games whit resource management. Where a cool looking combo is not the norm but once in a match opportunity. Kof is interesting in a sense that the more bar you have the less of a Classic footsies focused fighter it is and closer to a touch of death game it becomes.

[@aozakiaokobestgirl306]

10:13 this happy chaos is a disgrace

[@We1mann]

I'm not sure I'm qualified to make the distinction, but I feel like I like high damage games more. I've little interest in practising combos, and it feels better when my pokes have some impact on their own.

[@MougliFGC]

You are more than qualified to know what you like :)

[@marcuscaestus3583]

I like this content and hope it picks up. also, im a hardcore giovanna main so i see gio and rei, i click lol

[@AliceLoverdrive]

I'm not particularly familiar with fighting games (I've played a bunch casually, but the only one I've ever played even remotely seriously is MK9), but... A genre I'm way more familiar with, FPS games, has similar "issues"? There are high TTK games, there are low TTK games, there are games with iron sights on RBM, there are actually good games with alt-fire on RBM. FPS games are, thankfully, far from standardized! Yeah, most games that feature reloading put reload key on R, but I don't see how it's that different from fighting games putting some kind of attack on face buttons. Skill-transferability (is that a word? Now it is) isn't really a thing in FPS games either, even within the same game: I can hit rockets in Quake quite consistently, but I can't hit rails unless both me and the opponent are standing still. Venture to character-based games like TF2 or Overwatch and the differences will be even more apparent. Among other games? Being a Quake veteran means jack shit in Counter Strike.

[@MougliFGC]

I have said in the video that I am not necessarily advocating for standardisation, my point is about making people aware of differences and take them into account. Knowing whether a shooter is high or low TTK is useful for getting an idea of whether the game will provide the kind of experience you enjoy or not. As for the reload example, the point was about skill floor functions. If you pick up a new shooter where you need to reload or lean and you are used to shooters, chances are you will figure out how to do it without checking key binds. In fighting games, throws for instance are universally a part of the fundamental RPS triangle, but if you're picking up a game from a series you've never played before, you're chances of guessing how to throw are lower. And as I said in the video, it's not a massive deal, but it's worth acknowledging that it is an obstacle that is less present in more mainstream genres. And for skill transfer, I stand by my opinion that there is more overlap in the skill floor between shooters than between fighting games, but beyond that, I agree that some of my points are not unique to fighting games.

[@-ITH]

3 videos and 2.4ksubs. Amazing.

[@Goku0467]

3:44 best time to reset the combo btw.

[@88_bears]

Really enjoy your content, I'm looking forward to the tutorial series. Where did you get that fightcade skin?

[@MougliFGC]

Thanks! Fightcade doesn't have skin support as far as I know, this is just an overlay I added when editing.

[@88_bears]

@@MougliFGC That's a great touch to add when showing the older titles. Keep it up!

[@FutureJacket]

DBFZ has small health bars, a level 3 raw super will wipe 50% of a players hp. It's cheap and easy to pull off. This is great for beginners (like me) because if i really AM frustrated and need a win, there's plenty of 'cheap' ways for me to do so. However it's also a problem in the sense that we can't really have a good back and forth because a character gets comboed twice and they're dead, I think you refer to this as a low touch game. as a competitive game I'd like the match drawn out a little longer with some back and forth and more emphasis on neutral. However there's probably modifiers we can run for that like 1v1s and simply playing more matches or even just moving onto a fighting game that fits my particular strategic sensibilities. Those preferences might even change as i get better at the game. Ultimately though the issue of fighting games being 'hard' isn't going to be solved through adjusting skill gaps but helping new players into the mindset that losing a game doesn't mean you're a loser. Dark souls managed to do it and people LOVE that genre of souls-like games now. Fighting games are much the same, learn patterns, learn attacks, fail hard, fail often. The only difference is the bosses are randomised.

[@Sahil_isnt_busy]

Mildest take ever but characters can completely change the dynamic of game. I going to come at this from the perspective of a SSBU player but the difference between fighting Kazyua and fight Pit is insane. The games goes form a few touch high damage to a many touch low damage in seconds. I assuming this the same for other fgc’s.

[@MougliFGC]

That's true :)

[@EL1J4H640]

The more I learn about and try to play fighting games, the more I feel like I'm just too dumb or they're too complicated.

[@MougliFGC]

It's unlikely to be you, the genre (and the community) has a history of struggling with onboarding new players (see my second video).

[@EL1J4H640]

@@MougliFGC I mean I get how the basic attacks function and the weird properties they have as well as combos. But it doesnt come together well, and half of what I'm frustrated with is apparently part of the fun. Motion inputs, executing combos, using all the different kinds of moves to counter other ones ends up being more stressful than rewarding. I think the only fighting game I ever "got" was Skullgirls Mobile, which cut down all specials to about 5 moves on cooldowns and streamlined basic moves. And also props to you, still engaging in the comments quote a while after the videos release.

[@MougliFGC]

@@EL1J4H640 Maybe you haven't found the game that's right for you yet. But I guess a combat situation (even fictional) is always going to come with some amount of stress.

[@dj_koen1265]

I think its natural to experience some stress when overwhelmed with something you are not used to Especially when you are under as much pressure as in a 1v1 situation

[@crocodile567]

Bonne vidéo, force à toi