You Don't Have To Go Down in My Basement, Skepticon 4 Dan Barker

[@Ochileer]

The world needs many more Dan Barkers - many, many, many more.

[@enki354]

I agree!

[@johnthijm5113]

Word

[@danielbergersen4459]

Totally

[@joelonsdale]

A pack of Barkers....

[@Bob-of-Zoid]

At first I thought he was old fashioned, which he is, but daaaaaaaaaaang is he sharp! I must agree: He has a way of getting a point across, and making people choke on their own BS; Just watch some of his debates: He doesn't even need to ridicule anyone directly, as he can get them to do it all by themselves. Great mind for sure.

[@SteveFrenchWoodNStuff]

The "You don't have to go down to my basement" story is brilliant! Of course, the entire talk is chuck full of wisdom.

[@HawgsSmellGood]

Agree. “chock”

[@milton3204]

"when he was 7 and 8 he looked around and said, 'my parents are nuts.' THAT WAS SO ME! Even as a kid I couldn't understand it. My grandparents were religious, my parents were religious, my cousins were religious, but it just never clicked with me. Going to church was such a weird experience, 'just what the hell are all these people doing?"

[@johnlopperman2161]

Milton Wow. Exactly. In the heart of the Great Depression I was a kid of 4=5 walking the streets of Mpls-StPaul with Mom out cleaning houses & Dad out upper mid west working where he found it.

[@johnlopperman2161]

whoops hit wrong button. Cont. ..picking up cig butts learning inhaling, "what's that, what they doin, lookout dead guys, whuts'over there?, labor strikes, hungry drunks puking" Have humungus curiosity to this day. Could say I was ''worldly kid'', swimming in MN 10K lakes, learning I can't walk on water or fly unaided, etc. Few times in church/sunday school I'm saying "What the hell is wrong with these people?" At 85+ I'm still saying "What in hell is wrong with these People?" I claim my middle initial is Lucky, never have been introduced/brainwasher into the outrageousness of any religion. And have had a most free and interesting life today that practically takes my breath away and leaves me in awe reminiscing, reliving it in daily nap-time.

[@IncredibleIceCastle]

JOHN L OPPERMAN hello fellow Minnesotan

[@TheHydred]

@@johnlopperman2161 💗

[@johnlopperman2161]

@@IncredibleIceCastle Back atcha.

[@justincredible.]

That basement piece is BRILLIANT!

[@tofu_golem]

20:35 This is the video the "You don't have to go down in my basement" segment comes from. Best summary of Christian theology ever.

[@eirintowne]

Is it written down somewhere? I love it, but hesitate to write it down myself, because somebody surely must have done so already? Of course it was: www.patheos.com/blogs/rationaldoubt/2016/05/3568/

[@diaryofnricom163]

Thanks

[@jeanetteyork2582]

Whenever I'm depressed, I like to listen to this talk. I've heard it many times and never tire of it! Dan is brilliant, ethical and humane. BTW the Columbia Gorge is much older than he mentioned. Easy error to make.

[@grumylynn]

This was so helpful. He described exactly where I'm at in my deconversion process. "Hey God, by the way you don't exist." I"m still talking to him even though I know he's not there, but still exists enough in my mind. It's that emotional attachment and loyalty (I think). Thank you Dan Barker.

[@sophonax661]

Cathy Gruman so true. I am recovering from Catholicism and have exactly the same experience. How are you now?

[@jeanetteyork2582]

I finally understood the effects you describe when I read the marvelous book by John C. Wathey...called the Illusion of God's Presence. It's a bit thick and deep but very worthwhile to read.

[@justincredible.]

Welcome to reason

[@misteryman526]

Just a thought: When they stoned the guy who broke the sabbath, did they wait 'til the next day? Because if just picking up sticks is breaking the Commandment, isn't capturing the perpetrator and picking up a bunch of stones to stone him to death also against the Commandment?

[@coloneleverragehd9302]

MiSt 526 Yes the commandment pretty much says 'do nothing and be lazy all day, just like god was.'

[@patbrennan6572]

+MiSt 526 yeah right' that's a lot of fuckin work, stoning people, so they shouldn't have done it on the sabbath. stupid fucks shoulda waited till monday mornin..

[@mobaby1979]

haha this is awesome

[@dimbulb23]

If God hadn't taken Sunday off, just maybe He wouldn't have screwed up Eden so completely. Would have known how to properly teach Adam and Eve how to take orders, wouldn't have had to punish all living things with pain and death for the errors of the two humans built in His image.

[@williamw3501]

Valid point

[@alphacause]

That basement analogy, which Dan Barker used, was brilliant.

[@Kevo216666]

The best atheist - is an ex-religious atheist.

[@BorisNoiseChannel]

K Russell Or just a _spiritual_ one? I mean, not believing in god(s) doesn't mean one couldn't _turn-on_ religious kinda aw-inspired urm... well _spirituallity_ ... as it's so often said by the religious: _"so sorry that you lack these goose bumps feelings"_ ; not true at all, actually can do it at will too.

[@Kevo216666]

Boris B Well, I think we all have access to the numinous and transcendental - religion has hijacked what comes natural to most of us and says you're not worthy of it unless you join our club. All you have to do is bow and scrape and live in fear for eternity...

[@youngnattymusic]

True, anyone who is a ex-religious are the best atheist..because they are able to see the perspective of a religious person and change it to another view to bring common sense. i was a christian for 20 years because i was raised in a christian home. now im atheist..ive never felt so alive and normal in my life.

[@Kevo216666]

***** Good for you. especially if you live in the States - where atheism is more difficult than here in the UK - where no one actually cares and to announce yourself as a Christian is likely to be met with stifled sniggering. An rightly so:) Good luck.

[@seanjones2456]

@@devin9434 Another deluded know-it-all believer with special abilities to see the future. Ha Ha. Its been 2 years, still believing the nonsense?

[@avedic]

The "my parents are nuts" realization happened to me as a kid. I had just completed "Confirmation" at the Catholic church I was brought up in. One day we went, it was "Palm Sunday" or was it Friday...I forget. Anyway, everyone in the church was given palm fronds to wave around, the priest was walking the isles while sprinkling water on everyone, and there was a life-size statue of a bleeding emaciated man on the wall. I remember waking up very quickly and thinking, "holy shit...I'm in a cult!"

[@NathanNostaw]

I love 21:00, 'I sent my son down there'.

[@ObakeOnna]

Dan Barker is one of my favorite atheists because he talks openly about those inner experiences you can have as a believer, what appears to be the presence of god etc. And what's more, that you can have these very powerful brain mirages and still overcome them with reason and evidence and break that spell. It's just the kind of message people struggling with what to think about those feeling need to hear.

[@jeanetteyork2582]

This has to be a classic....I hope this talk is preserved and can be studied by everyone. I love this speech!! Goosebumps and everything!! He has such a way with telling the truth by using common terms. Thank you!!

[@StaticBlaster]

Most manic disorders such as OCD, trichotillomania, anorexia, and other -manias probably has the same parental calming effect. I suffer from trichotillomania and I feel like someone is with me. It's weird.

[@joelonsdale]

Never been a believer - my entire family, both sides, are, if not atheist, then completely a-religious. I resent having to share the planet with so many noisy, sinister, delusional twits and I find Dan Barker to be a wonderful tonic...

[@juxtrkov]

I hope this video never gets taken down, EVER. I want my children to see this. To the uploader, may Dan Barker bless you.

[@hansouth2355]

yeah i know what you are talking about. when i am in the art zone where thing goes right, it feels like magic; there is no feeling like it. for me, those moments are rare. it is even a detriment sometimes because small parts you work on in the zone look so different that i have to rework it. but i always strive to get to there, and make it last as long as i can

[@jhunz23]

Thank you Dan Baker for saving me ❤️❤️❤️

[@charlessomerset9754]

When Dan mentioned susceptibility to mysticism, and his belief that it falls along a spectrum, I couldn't agree more. Years ago when I was experimenting with Psychedelics and in groups of like minded psychonauts, I noticed that those people tended to fall into two different groups. Those that believed the psychedelic stimulated the brain into experiencing altered perception, and those that believed the psychedelic allowed your brain to receive visions from a higher consciousness. Those that were in the former group tended towards atheism, and those in the latter tended towards the spiritual. There was and is a correlation there, I know it. I wish academics would look into this phenomenon, it could be powerful research if done correctly.

[@melindad180]

Would love to see this study too!

[@arkdark5554]

What a gigantic transformation. And, totally positive one.

[@alittleofeverything4190]

Everything in our consciousness and subconscious is explained by emergence.

[@sophonax661]

We Are God yes. Emergence is one of my favourite words and I didn't meet one theist so far who understood what it means. (---> classic "because GOD!!!" moment everytime I tried to explain it)

[@Scharpy1]

Thank you for posting and helping me find the basement scenario. Thank you so much Dan Barker !!! You've been a great inspiration for a long time. Does anyone else see Bob Newheart from the 60s'in Dan? 🙂

[@rhondah1587]

I recently read his book "Godless" and it was fabulous! Highly recommend it. So excited to hear this talk. Wish I could have attended.

[@jeanetteyork2582]

Bravo, Dan! Funny and witty and right on. I was forced into religious indoctrination as a tiny child...now am free...free of religion!! Whee! Keep going, Dan!... and I hope freedom loving people everywhere will support FFRF!!!

[@chazzcannon3614]

Atheists tend to be brighter. This guy is a polymath.

[@timwade3606]

But I'm sure he was just as intelligent when he was a believer

[@j-doghulk9056]

@@timwade3606 Just as smart, but also just more deluded.

[@ryan0348]

everyone should watch this

[@tomaszpetr1964]

co median. he wants to be listened. never mind what about. he just need to.

[@dwightfitch3120]

@@tomaszpetr1964Cynical much?

[@johnsheehan5109]

Thanks Dan, I appreciate your honesty. It really is amazing waking up one day and realizing that it's all bullshit. But then realizing that we're all composed of particles that are 13.8 billion years, now that's a miracle...

[@mobaby1979]

exactly!!!

[@rosiebanks5618]

Much cooler story!

[@DaGubah501]

That’s just it ... religion is bullshit, still doesn’t mean you should lose your faith in peace and amazing happiness. In other words, that in itself is a sign of something so special & that is depicted as being a god, which is what humans are slowly outgrowing I get it. Ok. My point is this: don’t lose hope and faith that thier is a special place, paradise. And if all us who think rationally, should feel it to be ok that magical power is in fact TRUE possibility. Magical power meaning for us all, a god like more than us being is there for you and loving you. Let’s not forget the Bible is claimed to be the word of god, uh I’m guessing that it’s all written by man, a type of symbolic explanation. It’d like humans are how we are because we are stranded in these skin and bones. I think what I’m trying to say is, be atheist agnostic all you want, also keep the faith in incredible incomprehensible peace and love ❤️ that is not a god, that is more than who we are now, that’s why it’s seen as god like. So in theory god does exist.

[@ultramarinetoo]

19:18 The Good News - 20:44 Basement Story "It's a morally bankrupt system: any system of thought that has to use a threat of violence to make its point to any degree - and what is hell?"

[@grahambkk]

We have to thank Dan Barker first for his courage to break out when he finally addressed his own questioning mind's dilema, and second and more importantly, for getting out there with this kind of material to show anyone with doubts that they can finally give up the tension that their beliefs cause them in the face of rational, intelligent debate and information on the question of the validity of religion.

[@Evolution_Kills]

Any 'choice' made with not just the threat of violence, but the threat of eternal violence, is morally bankrupt. Give someone a good, logical, evidence based reason to believe. No faith, no imaginary carrot and stick.

[@paulflute]

One is not required to 'prove' a hypothesis in order for it to be a valid hypothesis. In fact it's a contradiction in terms. A thing that is proved is no longer hypothetical and so becomes a rule or law. As far as I am aware no hypothesis has been proved so far.

[@NoActuallyGo-KCUF-Yourself]

Dan Barker is a great speaker on this subject. I've heard pretty much this same story when he was at other venues, but it's full of great insights. Worth taking to heart.

[@jeffersonianideal]

Religion breaks your two capable legs, forces a rickety crutch into your trembling hands, and sanctimoniously exclaims, “Without God, you wouldn’t be able to walk.”

[@Linguist95]

Holy shit. I’m an atheist now, or at least an agnostic, after 24 years of almost daily indoctrination. I have a wife and two kids and I don’t know how to tell them. I almost feel like it would be wrong to try to break my wife’s strong faith... This has been a strange 6 months, finding that what I have been taught my whole life was not only wrong but also immoral. I’m scared to even leave the church, but I hate going there so much now that I know it is all a delusion.

[@Dreammaster695]

William Andrews fun fact it’s not ;)

[@logicsetsyoufree9052]

How are you doing now with your situation? Did you tell your wife?

[@dwightfitch3120]

@@Dreammaster695It probably is. But u had to know someone would contradict u on this

[@veritasetaequitas983]

I would have died of laughter in church as a kid if the priest came out and said "I'm an atheist now and you're all deluded!" LMFAO That's a great exit strategy. I would love to see the looks on the sheep's faces as the former priest exited the altar (stage left) and they were just sitting there mouths agape.

[@hariprasath1185]

Lol😂😂

[@freeamerican63]

It's always an inspiration to see a Dan Barker speech. I'm proud to say I've seen Dan speak three times. And each speech brings new light to the Atheist movement. And his talk at Skepticon IV is no exception.

[@BelgianBicyclist]

When I read in his book about the jazz combo, I got a HUGE smile. I play jazz piano too. It really hit me that the best part of my previous religious experience had been music-related.

[@Bob-of-Zoid]

Religion makes for some of the best comedy! Even Dan Barker who you would not expect it from, can pull it off without a hitch, and that without necessarily trying to take that route! On that note: I miss the Hitch-slapper a lot!

[@Vijin321]

Out of Dawkins, Hitchens, Barker, And Harris, I think Dan Barker is probably my favorite.

[@tatisjoa]

But only if aliens try to destroy humanity... and since that is not going to happen it's a moot point

[@thirdeye9106]

Best ever at the 20 minute point!

[@Gnomefro]

Ultimately, we know a hell of a lot about the physics of the basic components of the brain work, to the point where there now are implants interfacing with neurons in all sorts of ways. From controlling robotic limbs, to curing tremors, to giving limited sight to incurably blind by directly stimulating the visual cortex. We even understand broader systems like how the brain represents space etc on a wiring level. At no point has anyone encountered "the immaterial".

[@stuchly1]

@aneondevilbreath along with santa, or did he last longer? =)

[@gerede1]

20:15 Good news of the Gospel solves a problem of its own making 20:43 You Don't Have To Go Down in My Basement

[@Gnomefro]

In the end we can also tell one or two important things about consciousness from a combined objective and subjective analysis. For example, we know that the neural signals that produce sensations are identical. They do not contain information about whether something is red, pressure or an audio frequency. All that matters for interpretation is the neural wiring.

[@JanHidders]

For those who care: the basement story starts at 20:40. You're welcome. :-)

[@paulflute]

that's why i said 'believe' the research is underway.. infortunately it is massivley hindered by an establishment that give research grants to people based on financial rewards and within safe margins of accepted thought.. this is always the way with humans.. our understanding of nature though does not control the way nature actually works..

[@thewizeard]

I suppose if you can't beat them, ...join them! :)

[@paulflute]

one last time very clearly from the top.. there are many current hypotheses on the origin and nature of consciousness.. none of them are 'mine'. One is that consciousness is an emergent property of a mechanical brain. Another that it is more like a field phenomenon.

[@SacredSocietyAP]

I'd like to see Ray debate himself.

[@D1emon]

Of course people should seek to learn more about our universe. That's what science does. There is a big difference in a hypothesis and just assert something as true. Hypothesis is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon, that can be either true or false.It is then tested to see if it is true or false. Theology is just accepting their hypothesis as already true,then accept or reject reality to comply with what they have already accepted as true. Big difference.

[@pprapa]

reddit probably knows this but damn. it's so nice to see an evangelical christian come to his senses

[@Grayraven777]

"His bark is worse than his bite" -meaning that Dan was never a biter to begin with, he may have showed his teeth when he was a Preacher, but that was just what he was taught to do to defend the faith, but his humanity and rationality have overcome the dogma, and now there's no need to bark at anyone, instead he invites them in to talk about it, and if you're lucky he'll even let you go down to his basement to see that it has always been free of any torture devices.

[@niginit]

You can choose between limited choices and those choices are limited by your environment. This is explains crime, drug use, poverty, and even callousness and cruelty of the upper class, indifferent to the world at large. IE a Jewish child growing up in Nazi Germany, as a Nazi, will conform to the ideals of the Nazi party, etc. Whereas, take the same child and bring them to America and things would be much different. Environment limits your options, limits your will, steers you, so to speak.

[@gerede1]

@MrChubbleyWarner Um... he did mention the bell curve that people might fall on: for some it's easier than others.

[@achooothanks]

Sorry about your aunt. The story of your aunt reminds me of mine. She married my alcoholic uncle, and they were together for about 13 years. His alcoholism and cocaine abuse got worse and worse, her faith got stronger. Real strong, multiple days fasting, constant bible reading, hours of prayer. She left one day, and my uncle found her and their two daughters. He hit the lady that took them in. Supposedly he attempted to burn down the house. He got deported. My aunt, a poor,single mother of two.

[@nickallah]

CAN ANYONE FIND THE CLIP OF DAN BARKER ON OPRAH!!!???

[@dwightfitch3120]

Was just watching it. Ophra and the audience were insane!

[@niginit]

I think Kant was too tied up in the question of morality that he conflated it with the idea of free will. Like I said, free will doesn't exist. Limited will does and that limit is determined by our surroundings and our experiences. It's just that simple. It's just like knowledge. What if there was a term 'free knowledge', instead of just 'knowledge'. I would have to argue to people that we only possess limited knowledge, limited by our capacity to learn, which is determined by our environment!

[@Dragonsnack73]

By all means, feel free to send me a PM if you want. I cannot promise to answer you right away (kinda busy at times so lengthy discussions ... suffer). The advantages of this limited space here is that there's always time to read and type 500 characters ;)

[@sliqrick8142]

We're not free until we become FREE THINKERS !

[@tofu_golem]

0:20 While it is annoying when Christians say "You were never a real Christian" when someone leaves Christianity, the same thing happens in the other direction. While reconversions are rarer in the West than deconversion, it does happen, and as part of an Internet atheist community, I've seen fellow atheists pull the same "Well, you were never a *real* atheist!" line when someone reconverted.

[@georgecummins7203]

That statement is a way to avoid introspection. When someone leaves "our" group, it is easier to explain away their decision ("you were never a real X") than it is to take a thoughtful look at the underlying reasons for the change. Unfortunately, there are intellectually lazy people in both camps, but given the nature of faith, I suspect that this type of statement is spoken more often among believers than among atheists.

[@Gnomefro]

George Cummins _"That statement is a way to avoid introspection."_ TBH, I think it's mostly irony when atheists use it.

[@tofu_golem]

Gnomefro No, I've seen atheists using that "you were never a real atheist" argument quite earnestly. In fact, I'm ashamed to admit that I've made that argument myself (and felt really stupid after I realized what I'd done).

[@davidroberts1689]

Paul T Sjordal But we have all been real atheists. When we were born, we were atheists.

[@georgecummins7203]

David Roberts Are you sure that is accurate? My children believe in all sorts of impossible things; as they grow older, they tend to subscribe to fewer and fewer fairy tales. Very young children may not understand the details of a specific god until their parents indoctrinate them, but they certainly seem to be open to the concept. I know many people who were believers as children and became athiest as adults, but very few who went the other way.

[@biggstavros5876]

I would love to see Dan vs Ken Ham

[@bbrooks47]

I'm an ex-mormon and I approve of this message!

[@ACE999]

If there is a god, surely he/it/she would want to show it's creations that it had some credence and existed, considering all the shyte written in the Holy Babble about jealousy and false idols, etc.

[@reversefulfillment9189]

Wow, my memory was telling me this bit 20:20 was from David Cross. I tried to find it again. Dissapointed I gave up. Then youtube shows me this old Dan Barker vid again, randomly, BOOM there it is. One of the best comedy bits in ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY!!

[@Auswurkung]

"it does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live" - Harry Potter and the Philosipher's Stone.

[@D1emon]

bad analogy,but that aside. Can you prove that consciousness is immaterial?

[@niginit]

It's the same reason why we see people adopt their parents worldviews and why they adopt theirs from the majority of people around them (for the vast majority of the time). That's why religion is distributed mostly by region. It's the largest deciding factor of one's religious ideology. Environment. It's a great deal why someone DOES go to pick up the weapon to hurt someone. It's doesn't all happen at once. First they have a bad day, fired at work, evicted from house, etc. It's not so simple

[@cerberaodollam]

What about the 9mm exit strategy, though?

[@MrSammo1]

Most of WE atheists don't doubt. We were where the mythmind is.

[@RickWolfff]

The title story is at 20:40.

[@GrimTheCrow]

I know how to trigger the "praying centre" of the brain... When I do, I go to a mental place, dark forrest during fall/winter with the full moon shining trough the branches. It is beautiful but does not make me believe in any "entity God".

[@misterkel10]

Odd, I was under the impression that a photon stored a tremendous amount of information. Is that not the case? Aren't polarization, wavelength, frequency, vector and so forth data? I'm confused, can you please clarify why these are not 'data?'

[@adamhouse6305]

"There's a difference between free speech and government speech." - Dan Barker Amen, Dan.

[@giorgiomx]

34:43 I heard "Women shouldn't wear Golden shirts", but he said "...Gold in Church", didn't help to make any more sense anyway.

[@wessbess]

giorgiomx It was not Paul it was peter in first Peter chapter 3 verse three

[@maeburekaiser]

That isn't really relevant but yes, I realize all of that.

[@paulflute]

i agree.. we built engines so on the whole we understand them.. we don't understand neurons.. we can see that they transmit electrical and elcerochemical signals.. that some information.. there may be much more.. we have not shown that the activity of neurones 'generates' consciousness.

[@edricnavigator]

Why does this only have 9000 views? This should be everywhere

[@paulflute]

only if you catch him picking up sticks.. ;9)

[@ullrichfischer5796]

"If salvation is the cure, then atheism is prevention." Raaah-men! :)

[@Reddust86]

we need a group in cape town, south africa!

[@HollywoodColt]

Bad Religion, Tool, Nine Inch Nails, brought me to that science part of it......

[@stephaniecuellar3192]

l find it cool that music brought you to atheisim. l have a similar story, but not the same musicians.

[@iamanon4u]

Excellent talk, Dan! Keep up the good work!

[@robertgaudet7407]

Debating an atheist is pretty good Socratic method, especially for Christians.

[@TheAnubisDrake]

@aneondevilbreath Grats, it was 12 for me.

[@Rico-Suave_]

Dan Barker is awesome, absolutely love this guy, watched 18 minutes

[@maneatingcheeze]

By stopping a prayer at a government funded event he is helping those who may not believe in the same god as those praying, not just those who believe in no gods at all. I went to high school with Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Christian, Buddhist, Wiccan, Atheists and Agnostic students. If the school had blasted over the loud speakers the lords prayer, a large minority would have become outcasts in their own school. That is not right, and that is what Mr. Barker is fighting for.

[@gerede1]

22:32 Hell and Pascal's Wager: Pick the Religion with the Worst Hell

[@IMETYOUB42]

This is a terrific speech!

[@jamesneeland2710]

Very cogent, precise and well-written.

[@SoloYolo101]

I enjoyed your Hitchens reference. good comments.

[@rockycalilit6341]

i love listening to Dan than listening to sermons, make more sense

[@paulflute]

Ta.. was thinking more actual conversation but happy to leave for now.. also really happy to disagree.. i like that people see the same thing and come up with different reactions.. keeps the world interesting.. and i think the whole mind consciousness brain conversation is quite a big one.. best paul ;9)

[@lucasdaun1903]

The good news of The Bible is that it is only fiction.

[@SuperGodless666]

Thank you... thank you! It is so refreshing to hear honest, rational thoughts spoken instead of the ever present religious myths that are promoted by religious mobs in our community and country. Keep religion and state separate.

[@kathyheitchue6069]

Edward Susterich Yes right wing mobs for certain

[@ClumsyAssassins]

I always thought the idea of an immortal being using a book to communicate with its subjects kind of silly considering its not something the population can easily understand since reading and writing is an acquired skill not an innate one. It will also depends on the language you speak and seems too relative to the culture from which it originates. If I were a God I would probably make a other worldly artifact that would communicate my wishes. Or just appear to everyone or something like that

[@GODTHESOOTHSAYER1]

Hitchens

[@Dragonsnack73]

That is pretty much exactly the point i was trying to make: "nobody understands quantum physics" Yet the people you mentioned use it to make a living by making statements about reality they cannot possibly back up in any way. I would call that pseudoscience at the very best. "To understand mind you must work with mind". Problem with that is that our mind can come up with too much silly stuff to make that a viable way of gaining understanding. Even if it is plausible, that does not make it true.

[@MyBozhidar]

i evolved from the days i finished dead last in both of my elementary classes to the days i dare now think about america! that and the fact that i am 20K heavier than in the 50 proves evolution is a fact!