You have probably been influenced by the New Apostolic Reformation: what you need to know.

In this episode, Naomi talks with Holly Pivec and Doug Geivett about the New Apostolic Reformation, known as NAR. Even if NAR doesn’t sound familiar, you do not want to miss this conversation. As we get into some signs of the movement, you’re likely to realize you’ve encountered some of them already. This is a big one for victimization prevention-Please don’t miss it!
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beEmboldened exists for those impacted by religious trauma by providing support for prevention of victimization and revictimization, creating a safe space to ask questions and to heal.
beEmboldened.com (formerly Naomi Wright Ministries / NWM).
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[@andyroo995]

Thank you for this. I left the message a couple years ago after being raised in it and am trying to get my head around Latter Rain/NAR in the context of wmb and this clears up a lot of questions I had

[@beEmboldened]

I am so glad! It can be quite the mess to disentangle. Thank you for your feedback.

[@iceman4660]

Thanks for this. I found this to be a good discussion. I came across NAR at my former church around a decade or so ago when we had a visit from Bill Johnston from Bethel. Tbh I was sceptical of his message but I didn't know why. Over time the church became more aligned to this thinking. This was probably easier because the church didn't have a proper bible study program so most members, myself included, weren't able to test what we heard. For a variety of reasons I eventually left. A major reason was the over focus on experiences and feelings rather than Scripture in context. I had also started to read the Bible as a whole which shed light on this. Finally I came across KZbin channels like this that helped to reveal the dangers of these groups. Thank you for your good work. I should add that Bill Johnston visited at least 1 more time and I found him unsettling. His message had little supporting scripture which is a red flag. Isn't racism just an extreme form of hate, which is a sin that originates from within myself. Which leads me to a question. Is this related to the CR thinking of "oppressed and oppressor" which ultimately makes the oppressed helpless and in need of saving by these NAR advocates, rather than by our Saviour Jesus. My retort to their healing stance is as follows. If that is true then why does Bill Johnston, and others, wear glasses.

[@beEmboldened]

Thank you for sharing some of your experiences, iceman. It sounds like your unsettled feelings were right-I'm glad you listened to them! -Naomi

[@karinamartin7544]

Thank you for making this video. I'm literally speechless 🙊

[@beEmboldened]

Of course!

[@markscott4830]

i like the thoughtful discsussion not coming with heavy ammo and blowing people away.

[@beEmboldened]

Thank you for the encouraging feedback!

[@ConstantiaVerted]

Very interesting, thanks.

[@farmchick5705]

Blessed by your work.

[@beEmboldened]

We're so glad!

[@buckiemohawk3643]

Ive met people who went to AoGod churches who have said they got infected by new leaders, who pushed out the deacons and basically did hostile takeover of churches. One Sunday they were doing a study of Amos in sunday school and church service on The Power of Repentance to How to make Miracles Happen and feel the Holy Ghost Power. They were a very musical church which is nothing wrong with that but it became just chanted mantras. The music leader was thrown out after singing a Petra song which was allowed to we need more worship music. The services went from normal to like 5 hours. Like 4 hours of singing and mantras with 45 minutes discusiion on God wants you to be wealthy.

[@beEmboldened]

We've heard this about quite a few AoGod churches, though we've also seen some solid ones. There is definitely a mix!

[@busker153]

The idea of "sitting under preaching" is part of the problem that opens the door to the cults.

[@ridindelights]

Everything you've described is so true!!!

[@kentmorgan9464]

Doug said we need to know scripture really well. This is great especially when discerning spiritual practices new to us. Another natural shield against false teachers and profits is to be curious, to have our own ideas, and then to observe what happens when one disagrees with what is being taught. It conflict arises when we disagree we know there is no maturity in how this is being presented, and something must be wrong with the theology even if we don't know what it is yet.

[@beEmboldened]

I think under the right circumstances, I would agree with you, and I have seen this prove to be a sign of concern. I don't think it holds across the board, though. For example, my dad disagreed with leadership and the leadership made the decision to tell him to leave. His "own ideas" were heretical. So I would want to draw a distinction here and offer more clarity on what is meant by key terms, such as "own ideas" and "conflict." As another consideration, someone can be lacking in spiritual and emotional maturity while maintaining sound theology. Thank you for listening and for sharing your thoughts! -Naomi

[@kentmorgan9464]

@@beEmboldened Thanks, appreciate your thoughts and a place to process. Yes you are right, context would help define the terms, such as "own ideas" and "conflict." What one person may experience as a conflict, another may observe as a reality of life. "Own ideas" does not mean dogmatism, that is not good either. Also looking at your idea, I think only a mature person is close to having a sound theology, else it's not our own theology anyway. The immature are always swayed by what others think and do. I am thinking about both our ideas. I was thinking maybe we are trying to define how defense works. For what I have seen we all defend differently. I think some use theology defenses, some are emotional defenses, and some use attachment defenses. So I agree with you, some sound theology can be a good defense. A good defense given to us by someone else who has influenced us in the past. Someone who we value, trust and respect. Maybe having all 3 defenses is better than just one? Interesting - good discussion, thanks for sharing. Kent.

[@beEmboldened]

@@kentmorgan9464 How we defend is so so important, and I agree that we can (and at times, should) go about this in different ways. Have you ever read "Fool's Talk" by Os Guinness? In it, he writes about the approach and how that makes or breaks the information being shared. I found it to be excellent. One of those books I return to. You might appreciate it, too! -Naomi

[@sarahselway9341]

I appreciated the conversation but I think there were some definite blind spots in their perspectives. For example, we see a lot of biblical basis for directly casting out spirits (I.e. interacting with the demonic in the power and authority of Jesus). Are the abused in the church today? Yes! Does that mean it’s not biblical to prophesy, cast out demons, and heal the sick as lead by the Holy Spirit? Absolutely not. I do whole heartedly agree that discernment is needed but I believe they are going too far in their assumptions, and pronouncing them biblical. Anyway, I love your connect and find it so edifying overall. Just wanted to add my thoughts here

[@beEmboldened]

Thank you for your comment, Sarah. I think they were talking from an assumed foundation of the churches that are not doing so in a biblical manner (i.e., every thought is prophetic so let's speak it all with authority, like throwing spaghetti at a wall to see if it sticks...I literally heard someone recently say, "you win some, you lose some"). We should have made that initial premise clear. I appreciate your feedback! - Naomi

[@greglogan7706]

Sarah, While I appreciate your thought the reality is what you're seeing from these bozos has nothing to do with reality it's usually just their egos will probably always and just their grift off of gullible religious people

[@markscott4830]

Derek Prince in his series called out Branham and the later rain

[@beEmboldened]

People continue to call it out...hopefully more will begin to listen and to ask questions. To begin to critically think for themselves. The cost is high to do so in these situations, but it's less than the cost of not doing so.

[@Judahthanksgiving]

I would run from Prince.

[@donnag.3611]

Whether the Christian Celebrities admit it or not or believe it or not they are STILL following the latter rain doctrines, esp. the APOSTLES & PROPHETS & BRINGING IN & PREPARING OURSELVES FOR THE LORD'S RETURN, their leadership over the church as APOSTLES & PROPHETS, BUT IT IS NOTHING NEW! The true apostles are church planters & the true prophets have to held accountable. I for one am not in need of an apostle or a prophet b/c I have Jesus Christ. Also, people can have the gift of prophecy but that is not the same thing as being a prophet. I have learned a lot from the channel LEAVING THE MESSAGE BY TWO FORMER MEMBERS OF WM. BRANHAM'S CULT!

[@beEmboldened]

John and Charles are very helpful-so glad you're listening to them!

[@timclark2925]

Where the take Dominion post mill people miss it is: we would take dominion IF we succeeded in the Great Commission which is to go into all the world and make disciples teaching them to obey ALL that I have commanded you. But we, as the Church, have failed miserably to make disciples. Christians aren't obeying God. And God told Israel in Deut 28 that if they did not obey His commands two of the curses that would come upon them were 1) they would become a great debtor nation 2) their enemies shall rule over them. Which is exactly what the Church in America is facing today. What groups like the NAR are trying to do is to bring the Kingdom of God in the flesh; rather than Gods way in the Spirit. God promised Israel that if they obeyed Him they would be the head and not the tail. But we have failed as a church to teach Christians WHAT to obey and WHY to obey. We obey so that we don't quench the Holy Spirit. Paul and Jesus tried to get Christians to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and to inherit the Kingdom of God right here and now on earth. Thats why obedience is so important. Obedience doesnt help us to get to heaven when we die. Thats a free gift and paid for by Jesus Christ on the cross. But we have to obey so that we dont grieve the Holy Spirit and snuff out Gods Kingdom with it. Paul defines the Kingdom of God in Romans 14:17 as "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." The Kingdom of God is where God is obeyed and we walk in the power of the Holy Spirit. The problem is very few Christians obey God and have quenched the Holy Spirit and thus snuffed out the Kingdom of God with it. Much of the Church has exchanged the grace of God into a license to sin. So thats why the judgment of God comes on the Church and Jesus has to return to rescue us.....We are not going to win like the post mill dominion people think. We only win because Jesus returns to save us and to usher in His Kingdom...the millennial Kingdom. The post mill crowd says the Christians are going to take dominion and usher in the Kingdom on earth; but most Christians don't even want to obey the 10 Commandments....the Church is full of greed, idolatry, sexual immorality etc etc.....the first Commandment is against idolatry.

[@beEmboldened]

We definitely only "win" because of Jesus!

[@gregorylatta8159]

I have been revolted by the NAR if you call that influence!

[@chavak3497]

good advice, but most churches teach that the first half of the Bible is OLD and so it's been done away with by "Jesus." That is not true and it would be good for the three people in this video would admit to their own error. Or not. Please say that everything in the books from Genesis to Malachi is still true.

[@beEmboldened]

I'm not sure I'm understanding this comment, as the 3 people in this video do not believe that the Old Testament should be done away with, nor have they said it ought to be. That would be absurd.

[@PotterSpurn1]

@@beEmboldened The Old Testament is a backdrop to the New Testament, which provides revelation of Jesus throughout and mostly demonstrates God's wrath against idolotary and it demonstrates that man's sinful nature cannot obey God's laws no matter how closely we try to observe those laws - except for a few who did remain pleasing to God (Noel and 8 saved). The message as early as revealed by God to Abraham is that he was saved by faith alone; he was not saved for his works or obedience to God as he did. The OT is resplendent with examples of good intentioned faithful followers of God but then they end up being tempted, straying from the truth and temptation and idolising other Gods. The New Testament makes sense of the hyperstatic union - why Jesus manifest as God as human - and makes sense of how Jesus has paid for our sins - absolving us the need to engage in rituals and sacrifices that will save us and that he came to save us if only we believe and trust in him. That is how we become saved and born again. It demonstrates that he came to ensure we could fulfil the law - but only through his sacrifice with our faith in who Jesus is and what he did (Good News). The thief on the cross demonstrates that there is no links between good works, ridding ourselves of sin and salvation. As far as individual sin is concerned once we become born again - that is how we walk the Jesus thereafter for regeneration - not for redemptive purposes but to show reverence for the love of Jesus and the sacrifice he made. God through the HS helps us become more like him, but even with sins he has forgotten them for salvific purposes. Therefore, we repent from those sins out of reverence as no amount of repentance for salvation would work - so works for salvation is purely OT again and pretty useless. We worship God by walking in relationship with God, and doing good works to help those who know not what they do, we evanglise, we pray, we love God and our neighbour and love God above all else. We can only do with the Holy Spirit. That is my understanding of how the OT is relevant to the NT. It certainly has nothing to do with following the old law ' thou must, thou oughts etc., and that failure to observe old law as best we can will mean we have rejected God/Jesus and are not persevering as a Saint. That is the beliefs held by Calvinists and Catholics (who are different sides of the same coin) - both of whom essentially reject the deity of Jesus as God, no matter what they claim to the contrary.

[@Judahthanksgiving]

I know I'm not going to send them my hard earned money to make them rich.

[@beEmboldened]

Good boundary!