Your Favorite Game isn't a "REAL RPG"

Just a bunch of random, disjointed thoughts from a few conversations I've had over the last couple weeks, but really conversations I've read online since before the World Wide Web existed.
"The game I like is a REAL RPG because I like the things in it, but this other game has less of those things I like, therefore it isn't!" Been talking about that online lately, figured I'd put words to video and yap mindlessly about it for 20 mins.
What creates a Pure RPG, a True RPG, a Actual RPG, as opposed to the games you don't like as much, which obviously aren't. Where RPGs come from, and why none of it matters.

[@DagothDaddy]

The real RPG was the friends we made along the way.

[@bobbybologna3029]

i hate how that actually works here lol

[@TheCommissarIsDead]

👏🍻

[@fakeafterlife]

true very true those are the best rpg's

[@77wolfblade]

or the lessons we learned in life.

[@Sarum9nich]

sob i was about to type that joke lol

[@PlakeFilmmaker]

Small brain: Fallout 3 onwards is RPG because you play role Medium brain: Fallout 3 onwards is FPS because you shoot in first person Biggest of Brains: All Fallout games are Point and Click because you point at things and click.

[@ryanjones_rheios]

I actually sortof agree with the last one and follow up with "And that's why Morrowind-esk miss mechanics should probably come back. Because your *character* aiming and firing in Fallout shouldn't be any different than when you, the player, click to attack an enemy in an isometric game. Both should have a chance to miss, regardless of your impressive ability to click what you wanted the character to shoot accurately."

[@an2qzavok]

all games are rhytm games, you just have to press right buttons at the right time

[@Bodwaizer]

Galaxy Brain: all games that you play using mouse and keyboard are just work simulators.

[@PRiMETECHAU]

I've always considered morrowind to fallout games to be more of a FPS (or Slasher) assisted/enhanced with varying extents of RPG elements.

[@megamike15]

crpgs and point and click adventure games have more in common then you think it's why i find people that call disco elysium an adventure game funny.

[@Dinnye01]

Can we at least agree, that Raid Shadow Legends has nothing to do with any sort of rpg?

[@Zhakaron]

The people who own the creators of raid Shadow Legends also own gambling machine manufacturers like slots and video poker, raid is literally just that in cell phone game form. Same business different audience.

[@PlayerSlotAvailable]

@@Zhakaron Same business future audience*

[@googleisawful1473]

As far as I’m concerned, Raid only exists to sponsor youtube channels.

[@kirinkappa5662]

Yes.

[@lcmiracle]

Nope, everything is RPG now.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

The glimpse of a Gungan ("Meesa Jar Jar Binks!") during your Starwind character creation is a great analogy as to how the descendants of a particular setting or genre often become something unrecognizable from the original idea.

[@tzimiscelord8483]

Imagine stumbling across indigo on a video with a thousand views, I guess content creators recognize solid content

[@deptusmechanikus7362]

@@tzimiscelord8483 didn't they do a collab video about RPGs a few years back?

[@tzimiscelord8483]

@@deptusmechanikus7362 that's a hell of a question. Edit: looks like a few longer podcast style long form videos

[@Elgar337]

Yo Indigo where've you been, man? Glad you're still alive lol. Your last video was a few months ago, but somehow I feel it's been centuries.

[@Bobson_Dugnutt_Esq]

Becoming unrecognizable is as likely to be a positive as a negative. Quite often, we may find the bathwater of certain “core elements” in a genre has long been baby-free.

[@goge957]

I feel this is also what's happened to "roguelike" "roguelite". like "indie" it's now slapped on any game for marketing purposes without any consideration for how close the game is to any other game with the "roguelike" tag. It has become completely unhelpful for finding other games you might like

[@Zhakaron]

These days, Roguelike is broadly used to mean lost progress of some sort. For a while people were trying to use "RogueLITE" to Define some lost progress as opposed to all lost progress, but that never took off and the misuse of roguelike has just continued.

[@jic1]

To me, 'roguelike' refers to a combination of lost progress and procedural generation (I saw somebody calling Deathloop a 'roguelike', and it didn't really fit). Having said that, for me the main attraction of a roguelike is that every playthrough is different, so if I search in Steam for a roguelike and find a procedurally-generated game where you don't lose any progress on death, I'm OK with that.

[@TheDarkblue57]

Not to mention 'Traditional Roguelike' or ASCI roguelike

[@sergeydoronin1579]

It's kinda ridicilous how the term "Indie" was specifically applied to video games made without publisher support, but now we have indie game publushers like New Blood or Devolver

[@jic1]

@@sergeydoronin1579 I always thought the meaning was pretty much the same as for 'indie' in music: 40% not published by a major publisher, 60% not in a 'mainstream' style.

[@DoubleJump]

The only true RPG is Madden Football. I play the role as a quarterback that doesn't know the playbook. 😂

[@chazmiranda]

I too run a Russell Wilson build

[@makeitthrough_]

@@chazmiranda I kind of wish I watched sports just so I could know how sick that burn was

[@EarthPoweredHippie]

Facts lol

[@deaj8450]

@@makeitthrough_ As someone who watches sports, it's a decent but not great burn. Wilson won a super bowl. Jamarcus Russel would be a much better burn, but that's a story from fifteen years ago that no one wants to remember.

[@deaj8450]

The funny thing is that sports games do have relatively deep rpg mechanics. Especially older ones, for various reasons but character stats are what makes sport games work.

[@GOAToatoat]

Weirdly enough, I feel like adventure games have done the opposite. Almost every adventure game has become an open world ubisoft tower game. Which I don't hate that formula! It is just way too overdone at this point. Adventure games used to do so much more. At least rpgs, while a useless label, can still offer a variety of experiences these days.

[@LorikQuinn]

I love GTA 3D era but goddamn did they it ruin the industry. Some games REALLY don't need an open world, i miss the PS2 adventures that just aimed at telling a story, were maybe just 1GB in size but had a catchy design or very fun/goofy gameplay

[@Grandmastergav86]

IMO games like Arma or Hidden & Dangerous are closer to RPGs those commonly considered such.

[@Grandmastergav86]

@@LorikQuinn A linear experience can really allow devs to showcase their creativity. I don't mean linear as in COD "following the dot" style gameplay.

[@JanPospisilArt]

"I tend to make up hypothetical conversations..." Yeah, I believe that.

[@Kai.CRoleplaying]

The whole purpose of an RPG is the act of roleplaying, stepping into the shoes of a character(s) and living out their life based on your own decisions. Video games by their nature will always fill in some of our own imaginations and limit our freedom to a degree, so I agree there is no "pure" RPG unless you're doing pen-and-paper. However, like you say, the strength of video games is immersion. The immersion offered by video games coupled with a imaginative roleplay can be more appealing than simply imagining it in your head, even given that I must work in the developer;s constraints. The new roleplaying scene here on YT has a long way to go but roleplaying is an art IMO, and it can breathe new life into the same old game you're familiar with, by seeing it from new perspectives, by approaching it from a new character.

[@killval849]

THANK YOU for finally exclaiming how important Everquest was to WoW's success. Most people I talk to laugh when I mention Everquest, and personally I think it's the best video game ever crafted.

[@Don-ds3dy]

I get that I'm probably missing out on some better experiences but when playing RPG games I almost always just play as myself. I don't want to be someone else, I want to be somewhere else...

[@elgatochurro]

The only thing I hate about conditional turn based is that I have to go through the menu ONCE the character is ready to act... If I could tell them to perform an act through the menu and they'd do it if I programmed it in before they were I'd be fine with it.

[@MrDowntemp0]

OMG A screnshot of Armageddon MUD's website. They're pretty notorious in the MUD community for having some bad apples, but as are most RPI muds. Would LOVE to hear your thoughts on MUDs, especially of the RPI variety in a future rambling video.

[@Zhakaron]

You are correct, Gabe's Greater Internet Theory or GIFT is in full force there.

[@Brandon_Jon]

As a huge Fallout fan you couldn't be more accurate about the fanbase. Holy shit is it toxic as hell. You truly cannot like anything, and I mean anything, without having somebody write a paragraph about "why you're wrong". It will forever be at war with itself. It's been that way since Fallout fucking 2!

[@crispnhollow7300]

So, the responses weren't an attempt at humour?

[@comicsans1689]

Exactly, try telling a New Vegas fanboy that 3 is a good game. They will devour you for daring to like something Bethesda made.

[@Valkbg]

Being a FO Tactics fan is great since barely anyone remembers the game

[@mienski0]

BoS bros, where we at?

[@mortache]

Yeah this is the reason why I started to despise New Vegas. Its a great game but if you scrutinize it the same way those people tear into Bethesda games, its gonna have more holes than game

[@SaintIgnatious]

I grew up playing DnD with the abundant amount of kin around my age in my family. Almost always I was the DM and was given the blessing of being dragged on the leash that was them always going the wrong direction. Truly no video game will be able to replicate this for many, many years. The absurd scenarios that arose are just far too complicated for a dev to be able to account for. That being said I have my idea of an RPG game, and it’s rather simple in my opinion. It can be real time or turn based. I prefer dice roll combat either way, and prefer stat attribution and gear to take the lead over “player skill” in an RPG, and there has to be freedom to me. Bethesda’s titles portrayed this well to me, up until Oblivion, and not just because of the evolution from hit ratio in combat but also just the simplification overall. I don’t think I’ve yet seen a game that has character development too complicated for me yet, the more variety and flavor the character can delve into whether the skills be useful or not the better to me. That being said my favorite RPG video games are easily; Arcanum, Morrowind, and actually a little mobile RPG game called Orna. This is an age old argument now that will never cease, and will only continue to evolve into further degeneracies of the genre. Each generation will claim their modern interpretation of an RPG is just that and that won’t change. I also very much enjoyed being able to watch you play my Starwind mod in the background of this video. I hope it brought you some joy.

[@uriel7395]

So far I've only played one game that's captured the feeling of playing a tabletop rpg. Disco Elysium has tons of dialogue and encounters that, even though ever option you can pick is predetermined, manage to feel like I was interacting with my DM who has to put up with all my crazy antics.

[@setteplays]

Video game genres are always a mess, since gameplay mechanics are way more intrinsic to the experience than what you feel watching or listening to other forms of media/art. So with any new good and innovative game, comes a new sub genre. I wonder how far this will go.

[@christominello]

What an incredibly well-spoken rant.

[@charlessmith5465]

19:26 I think there's a quote from Steve Jackson where he argues that games like Monopoly or Mario are RPGs with a similar "you're playing a role" logic. IIRC it was quoted in a book called _Playing at the World_ which is mostly about how tabletop RPGs developed from wargames.

[@Dr.Quarex]

Playing at the World is required reading for literally anyone who has spent any amount of time seriously thinking about role-playing games.

[@antanaskiselis7919]

I recall my teen years when everyone was playing WoW. I was playing a rather obscure mod for now abandonware videogame Freelancer (old space sim). Released by Microsoft and Digital Anvil. Mod was called Discovery and still exists, although it's barely alive at this point. Not that it ever was very big (from 100 to 200 players on server, but gamespace is also rather small), but now it's not really playable as much. Half of the game was on live server, other half was on the forums. Where we would play faction politics. Declare war, negotiate truces, trade agreements, alliances etc. Within the constraints of game lore. Forums fed the live game and live game events would feed the forums. A person could join multiple factions running multiple characters within those factions. We had people more focused on pvp, we had people more focused on RP or both. It was funny how this dynamic also affected meta game dynamics of sometimes rp players recruiting strong pvp players to be as the "muscle" in game :D. Man, best of times. More over when significant events had happened driven by the players, mod developers would sometimes make those events history in the server and alter the gamespace. We would also have some separate servers for major story events, like battles where you would be spawned with the gear of your choice and just pew pew till you get the fill of mass pvp in some particular system playing out that event as regular figher pilot or capital ship admiral. Guess what game did not have? Player stats, levels, rare loot, skills, abilities etc and player pew pew pvp abilities mattered a ton as well. What it did have? Tons of player choice and player generated "content" events. To which game space adjusted when it was significant and very well played reasonable advance (judging from in game lore and within bounds of faction balance). To this day I recall it as the most Role Playing oriented video game I've ever played in my life. Even though it on the surface had none of the tropes or elements what people would associate roleplay game with.

[@Zhakaron]

If you're a freelancer fan check out this playable demo and future release by a Skyrim mod maker pastaspace.itch.io/underspace

[@JohnBeaversYT]

Thank you for the discovery of Starwind :)

[@halcionjoy7]

The conclusion I came to years ago about what makes a game an RPG is that character agency must be separate from player agency. I'll use lockpicking in Morrowind and Oblivion as an example. Morrowind has a psuedo-random dice roll lockpicking system based on your character's skill and the quality of their picks. Oblivion has a mini-game that the player can master, which gets easier as the character's skill passes skill thresholds of 25. Morrowind separates the character's skill at lockpicking from the player's, which makes it more of an RPG than Oblivion's lockpicking mini-game. This doesn't make Morrowind a true RPG, but it makes it more of an RPG relative to where Oblivion is on that spectrum.

[@abadenoughdude300]

I've had similar thoughts. My idea of RPGs was formed by the 90's CRPG games when it was about dice rolls, skill checks, strategy and planning. Meanwhile in Oblivion it's less about what your combination of combat skills and luck stat is and more about how effectively you can whif the monster you're fighting. This is why I've always placed any real-time RPGs closer to the action adventure category rather than actual RPG where success and failure is dictated by the character's actual skill rather than how frame perfect YOU are, the player.

[@alliselectrical4381]

I agree with this statement. Although round based cRPGs in the nineteens were the real deal like Bards Tale III or Might and Magic II in first perspective view I played on the Amiga. However the first real time action cRPGs I played were Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder, were your reaction causing advantage or disadvantage is decoupled from the character. But I prefer these hybrids more than the 100% pure ones. That is why Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Fallout NV are my absolute favourites. Round based or top view (isometrics) were never my type of RPGs.

[@halcionjoy7]

@@alliselectrical4381 I think RPGs that hybridize character and player agency are the only ones that provide the freedom most people enjoy them for. If a game slavishly adheres to dice rolls for everything, it ends up being like a railroading DM. It may be truer to my definition of an RPG, but it's still not fun.

[@Bodwaizer]

That's only a part of it, second part is world reacting appropriate to your actions in it, that's why tabletop and your imagination is best we can get so far.

[@alliselectrical4381]

@@Bodwaizer Sorry I am not talking about tabletop D&D RPG with pen and paper or with figurines. They might be better for imagination, for peoples who avoid computers and when there is long-term power outage. I am instead talking about RPGs on the computer, and for these type of games, the nineties and mid 2000 were the best, because these were the middle ground between old school RPG mechanics and immersing as well QoL improving game mechanics. Pen and Paper D&D is not my cup of tea.

[@neeavyn]

I always viewed playing as yourself in an RPG as the antithesis of roleplaying. After getting to know how many people struggle with the concept with immersing themself into the idea of not being themseIf, I figured out that "real RPGs" never had the chance to get the mainstream appeal big companies want from their products.

[@boreanknight]

To me it's complete opposite, I've been always playing a version of myself (especially in Elder Scrolls games) not because I can't immersive myself into someone else but because being myself inside that fantasy world is the highest form of immersion. This is why I prefer free character creation opposite to let's say Witcher series with a predefined character.

[@neeavyn]

@@boreanknight I get the idea and I think that's exactly the reason why people struggle with roleplaying. You can create a character of own creation but you yourself are still not the dragonborn/nerevarine/whatever, you're a character of a strange and foreign world. Think less of what you would like to do and more of what your character would like to do. It might take some time to get used to but its a lot of fun^^

[@PlayerSlotAvailable]

Exactly! That is why I can not play games in first person. If I am in first person I will immerse my real self in the game. I don't want that, I want to roleplay as someone else! Also Sims is the best RPG ever made, don't @ me

[@MNGN101]

If there's truly a _struggle_ to roleplay then most people who play Skyrim would be sitting in the Breezehome eating cheese wheels all day instead of going out on daring adventures. A lot of people just enjoy projecting their own sense of morality in their characters and that's a totally valid way of roleplaying.

[@neeavyn]

@@MNGN101 At that point you're just playing as yourself, not as a role. You can play the roleplaying game without roleplaying, if that makes sense to you.

[@GaryWRNY]

I havent visited your channel in years but its great to see you still making quality content. Looking forward to watching what Ive missed!

[@zebedeetotty]

Always love a good video essay from Zaric

[@SuperBlooper057]

It's true, my favorite game is mario, which isn't an RPG by any definition.

[@AnarickTheDevil]

Other than ya know... Playing the role of Mario.

[@keenansoundwave3894]

Interesting you brought up Zelda. I have always heard people call it an "RPG" but I never saw it. I think people see you can input a name different to Link and call it an RPG. Yet beyond that there isn't a level up system or any real dialogue choices. At least any that matter. It's very strange.

[@rikustorm13]

Zelda is like a stripped down version of Castlevania SotN imo, instead of actually leveling up your stats like SotN, in Zelda you just obtain more items to help you through the game, and yes I know in SotN you also obtain a lot of items throughout the game

[@glitchedoom]

@@rikustorm13 Which is funny because Zelda has been cited as a main inspiration for SotN (as opposed to Metroid like everyone thinks).

[@duyataksis5210]

The Fallout I like is objectively the best Fallout.

[@j0rd346]

Give this man a million subscribers. Excellent video.

[@ThatDjinn]

Back in a day we were calling RPGs played on PC "cRPR" as in "computer RPG". Nowadays the distinction is the other way around - pen-and-paper or tabletop RPG's are the oldschool games, while the term "RPG" is mostly used in videogame terms, because they are simply more popular in general. Especially with how many damn subgenres there are. Nowadays I see "cRPG" sometimes used to describe "classic" RPG's, that is RPG's that emulate classic games from Ultima to Fallout and Baldur's Gate. But overall the naming convention is a complete mess. Even staying within the same game franchise you can find completely different games, like the newest Baldur's Gate having very little in common with the genre of BG1 and it's sequel. I don't think there is any other genre that's been so convoluted by the passage of time than RPG's.

[@eck0wns]

Love listening to you talk brother. Wish we had more people like you directing production at large RPG companies like Blizz for example.

[@wowsnav]

I'm amused at the WoW part, as someone who raided in EverQuest for 6 years in one of the top 3 worldwide guilds (1999-2005), hearing the WoW devs complain that only 2% of the playerbase entered Naxxramas made me chuckle. Well, that's what happens when you release an expansion that makes Naxxramas obsolete half a year later, and you also casualized the entire MMORPG genre by making WoW incredibly easy in order to appeal to people who don't even play video games. It's no surprise that all those unskilled players never reached those lofty heights! And now here I sit, 18 years after WoW's release, and there still hasn't been one single good MMORPG, nobody wants to make a challenging sword and sorcery MMO anymore. Thanks, Blizzard!

[@orangemegaslide]

Roguelike, roguelite, soulslike, metroidvania, open world... I thought of these "genre" labels as well while listening to this video. At this point I'm more convinced that these labels, including RPG, are used more to satiate search algorithms and CPM. And of course, fandom of said labels being at odds with each other, enable engagement that provide the feedback loop for the algorithms and CPM. And of course on platforms where nuance is subconsciously discouraged, by attention spans or even hard capped by character limits. Rant aside, great video.

[@SludgeMan90]

We are living in an RPG, playing simulated rpgs.

[@michaeltaylor8030]

This. Role-playing is the meaning of the Universe and life, therefore video games too.

[@EJDubbz]

I love that KZbin served me two different RAID commercials as I watched this.

[@kaitlynkitty1917]

The messy hair and complete lack of anti-aliasing on the green screen is just a perfect vibe. I dunno why

[@colbyboucher6391]

The breadth of things that could be considered RPGs is huge because D&D introduced so many concepts to the world. It developed the idea of having a character with statistics represented by numbers that improve as you play. It developed the idea of games where you play as a character with, y'know, a specific role, separate from the other people playing with you. It (sometimes) incorporated role playing in the traditional sense where you'd pretty much improv your way through things. It single-handedly invented "dungeon crawling" and the concept of loot. A whole lot of people didn't "role play" when D&D was first becoming a thing. Some people did, but others thought of it as pretty much just a complex board game. And then there were Gygax's games which were practically modern survival MMOs in RPG form which is why domain play was a thing. That dude would have lots of people wandering around in the same world, keep close track of time to make sure things would sync up. People would design dungeons and build them to *protect their stuff from other players* who wanted to steal it in their own games. So OF COURSE there are tons of games that we call RPGs. I don't think it's very valid to try and insist that something is or isn't one, because it's a pretty all-encompassing term when talking about most modern video games.

[@DaemianOfMars]

Been watchin you for a couple of days and the moment you said "This sentence is uttered by people who don't think" I had to subscribe 😂 love your channel man, quite the unique experience in a sea of KZbin "content"

[@williamwallace234]

The reality is that if you see "RPG" in the marketing or description of a game it just means character progression

[@jeb791]

RPG's is more of a spectrum with story & progression at its core

[@Dr.Strangelewd]

Zaric looks like Smash Mouth frontman now

[@andreyrussian2480]

All modern RPG problem is absence of meaning in game-play progression because science of meaning sequencing doesn't exist.

[@abadenoughdude300]

Instead we now have XP and skill trees in nearly every game which leads to, say, CoD being classified as an RPG.

[@andreyrussian2480]

@@abadenoughdude300 Has to be concentrated on explanation philosophy with one ability at beginning and another ability earned as aftermaths of story-line. Sorts of immersivity.

[@PyroHyJacker]

Toontown Online was the only REAL rpg, but what you also said checks out 👍

[@Dr.Quarex]

As someone who never made it past level 25 in World of Warcraft just like I never made it past level 25 in EverQuest (or Anarchy Online, or Lord of the Rings Online, or Dark Age of Camelot, or Asheron's Call, or Age of Conan, or Star Wars the Old Republic, or...), I am actually glad to hear that MMORPG designers finally figured out the post-newbie parts of the game took way too long if you actually expected people to see the "endgame" (read: money-making FOMO hook) content.

[@jayjeckel]

7:05 I don't know about that. Plenty of MUSHes could be considered pure rpgs, because they were all about the roleplaying. There are no technical limits when the only tech you need is the ability of one person to type text and other people to read and respond to that text. Next to actually sitting around a table together, MUSHes are the purest example of role playing games.

[@Kilmoran]

I have made a heavyily mechanical MUSH before and I think that hits pretty close to a "pure" RPG by this definition. Plots as we called them (Scenarios or Campaigns) were run manually by staff or players and the focus of the game and progression was based on RPing. The systems were for neutral arbitration of combat and skill checks. The primary weakness to this approach is that you do have a bit less control to change or tweak encounters easily in pre programmed rules However, to my defense, the systems were designed for PvP, so that lack of flexibility in outcome (meaning changing the rules in play) was entirely intentional.

[@InMaTeofDeath]

Reminds me of the people who will desperately try to convince you Sekiro is not a soulslike while the majority of the community points out "WE DON'T CARE"

[@buckrodgers1162]

Fallout 4 Is an 'Interactive open world FPS movie'.

[@borkfate1094]

Thank you for the BatMUD plug. It looks amazing!

[@Marcus_Halberstram]

San Andreas CrazyBob's Cops and Robbers is the best RPG. Getting the clap while imprisoned is one of a kind experience.

[@Plutonia001]

Even though I expected Cyberpunk 2077 to have some "cinematic" design, I still somehow managed to make myself disappointed when what CDPR released was a movie game, instead of anything even close to a fraction of what something called "Cyberpunk 20##" should be. Even though I know CDPR's target audience would reject it entirely, I think that a chronological, numbered sequel to a PnP RPG in videogame form should at the least be designed like something such as Daggerfall. Not a Keanu Reeves movie with a handful of high production-value authored branches.

[@comicsans1689]

I wasn't confident in Cyberpunk 2077 being an RPG to begin with because of The Witcher 3 barely being an RPG, so it was no surprise to me when CDPR changed the description of Cyberpunk from RPG to action adventure.

[@Plutonia001]

@@comicsans1689 I think they should have altered the game's nomenclature as well. Calling it "Cyberpunk 2077" makes the direct connection that it's the real chronological sequel to Cyberpunk 2020. An action adventure as a sequel to a PnP RPG. They should have called it Cyberpunk: Silverhand or something.

[@elk3407]

It always rubbed me the wrong way when people got so strict with mechanical descriptions of what an RPG is, because despite the fact that alot of people would never consider Dark Souls or Elden Ring an RPG, I find the structure much easier to roleplay in. Maybe one run my build is a holy knight who is disgusted in finding themselves hollow and undead, and will restore their humanity at every opportunity. Maybe another I'm a zealot of the frenzied flame. It just feels so much more natural then the awkwardness of handing me a bunch of dialogue options with none of them reflecting what I want to say.

[@nevisysbryd7450]

It is hands-off and implicit rather than explicit means of storytelling. I have a similar irritation with people saying Dragon's Dogma's story is bad or non-existent. It is not; it is subtle and implied in a manner that imposes very little definition onto the player character.

[@entropy6e]

Dark Souls and Elden Ring aren't RPGs, more just twitchy action titles.👎

[@entropy6e]

​@nevisysbryd7450 DD "story" is fine, I just don't like its twitchy action combat system, coming from a TTRPG background. Shame, cause I enjoyed it apart from that; wish it included a different combat option like gambits or a strategic mode.

[@W4iteFlame]

I kind of want similar video, but about "Rogue-likes". People seem to have no idea what it is, but they keep using it to describe wide variety of games

[@AnkMyrandor]

I just want to say that even tabletop rpg's aren't rpg's anymore. at least DND , it died after 3.0 because they started to change everything to be balanced in combat. which means that it started with nerfing spells that had purpose for roleplaying purposes. because they found them imba in combat. tabletop RPG's are now a glorified standardized action dungeon crawler and don't have the emphasize on roleplaying anymore. if you take the RP out of RPG it's just a tabletop game. Not only games strayed far from roleplaying, everything did to include a larger audience. which means dumbing down and simplifying way too much. roleplaying is dead, it was murdered in the 90's to attract a more mainstream audience in every regard. sadly for purists like me , but capitalism is gonna capitalism. this was inevitable.

[@Zhakaron]

In that aforementioned system you're speaking of, don't look for niche interests in mainstream products, I've been doing Pathfinder one shots set in the Forgotten Realms and there's been plenty of fun role-playing.

[@AnkMyrandor]

​@@Zhakaron I started that system with adnd 2.0 and my group that plays of 15+ years are sadly not interested in pathfinder, hence I quit playing roleplaying games, sadly there is no group to play with nearby, ( geographical difficulties ) I just wanted to state that this has been a trend with like you said becoming mainstream products and inevitably changing into the amalgamation we have these days, tabletop and digital. And I'm not saying you can't roleplay with any ruleset, I have the opinion that if you are an RPG the ruleset should be emphasized on roleplaying. this also applies to digital games. which has a lot more problems because it's harder to unlearn player behavior than learn new behavior to players. I believe that games whether you have turn based or not, should have more realistic / behavior constraints to emphasize the player behavior into a more "realistic" humanlike behavior in games. which have been grossly underdeveloped in the last - at least 20 years I would say.

[@grundierungtaglich6241]

@@Zhakaron Pathfinder aka The Cooler D&D

[@ykalon]

Daggerfall is probably the video game that comes closest to being a true rpg. I noticed you mentioned Arena, Morrowind and Skyrim but not Daggerfall

[@babab_m]

RPG nowadays just means "sword and shield game" and/or "game with leveling and stats"

[@Johnnybomb1]

DWTerminator made a video similar to this several years ago. Mainly about how "JRPG" are more like interactive visual novels rather than actual role-playing games.

[@midshipman8654]

rogueliks like nethack or even more sandbox roguelikes like dwarf fortress do a pretty good job of closely simulating the mechanics of different rpgs. with the bredth of possible interaction choices and all. like most of them have 25+ ways of interacting with things assigned to different keys pick up kick prey drink examine throw etc. and in sandbox ones, the off the rails thing you mentioned can often happen as well, with you as a part of a living world. though they still miss out on the social element to agree. though again, some do a good job of simulating social stuff too

[@hoonterofhoonters6588]

If you think that video game players are petty for arguing about whether Magic Sword Game VII is a CRPG, you should listen to metal fans argue about whether Brutal Agonizing Infinite Gorefest should be classified as peepeepoopoo dead baby scream core, or as poopoopeepee impending death doom core.

[@CC-xh1ok]

Yay upload! I need to finish vid, but very interesting topic so far. A requirement to tick “is it rpg enough” is if a character’s stats actually differentiate what one can experience in a playthru. From what weapons armor, build and abilities, how well they preform, etc.

[@xaptor8685]

I learned that for now, Video games can’t recreate the tabletop experience in video game form in terms of limitations on coding, ai and technology in this day and age. But maybe not for long, because technology and ai will always be progressing and evolving for the better. An upcoming game that is The Wayward Realms is definitely trying to break that barrier or setting up as a stepping stone for other game companies to take notice and inspiration, up for the challenge for that video game rpg pipe dream to finally happen. If it actually works, it will be revolutionary for the video game industry.

[@aesculetum]

I played the True RPG (that is, what kids call table-top role-playing game these days) for many years before I discovered there were RPG video games. I think, for that reason, I never called a video game "true RPG". But I always said that Baldur's Gate 1 was the closest thing I played to the FEEL of playing Dungeons & Dragons.

[@aesculetum]

@@Cannibal_Holocaust I was DMing AD&D when I played Baldur's Gate back when it was released. And BG1 doesn't have the RPG feel because it emulated AD&D. BG2 emulates AD&D, so do Icewind Dale 1 and 2. And these don't have the same feel as BG1. But, at the end, it was something I feel. I don't suppose other people need to feel the same. (Although one of my AD&D players also shared my opinion of BG1.)

[@TristenSarelvun]

Could you possibly describe what made it FEEL like an RPG to you? Because when I tried the game, I felt absolutely no ability to roleplay whatsoever when I clicked on the cardboard cutouts of people and had quests slapped on my forehead, some of which occasionally asked me to make a choice or 2. But I also didn't get far in the game because I didn't enjoy its mechanics, character interaction, or plot, so I'm obviously very biased. On top of, y'know, everyone having their own definition of the "ideal" RPG. Anyway, I'm curious.

[@comicsans1689]

@@aesculetum Did you ever try Neverwinter Nights?

[@aesculetum]

@@comicsans1689 1 and 2 and the expansions. All finished.

[@wowwar2]

Technically, No RPG video game is a true RPG because none of them are able to fully incorporate all of the improvisational story telling and freedom that you can with DND

[@boreanknight]

Real life is only real RPG.

[@comical4609]

24:29 - It's mostly just the obnoxious subculture of FO3 contrarians who are hated by everyone in the overall FO fandom.

[@charizard7666]

You are the literal example of what he says at the timestamp.

[@MrSilentProtagonist]

We are at the point (metaphorically) where people are saying lions can have stripes because ligers exist.

[@UtushoReiuji]

Sir, your Numbers Go Up while Playing Pretend is a false Numbers Go Up while Playing Pretend! The only true faith exists on the alternate timeline where Steve Jackson never pulled the GURPS license from Fallout and we got to experience all the rough nitty-gritty of the system.

[@Lucitaur]

I know no one asked, but I feel like TES games (the main ones) are best described as 'Immersive Sim RPGs' and think they should continue to walk that path in the future.

[@ReiniHeini]

Really looking forward to your video on procedurally generated content, especially because the related technologies and tools have developed a lot. Regarding AI voices, I actually don't mind the monotony of current solutions so much. I acknowledge that they are far from being a great substitute for human voice actors, but they help, at least me, to immerse myself into the setting. That being said, I really do hope that The Wayward Realms (which I guess could be the subject of your next video) offer a plugin for AI voice synthesis and ways for the community to contribute with samples. A similar mod is already available for Skyrim and does a fair job as it is.

[@Bobson_Dugnutt_Esq]

It’s only a true RPG if its control scheme defies intuition, context and feedback at every turn. If you go to a staircase and it just assumes you want to use the stairs, man that’s for plebs. Real RPGs make you use a full keyboard layout so you have the freedom to pickpocket the stairs or try to make a potion out of the stairs instead. (And then of course helpfully tell you “You can’t do that.”)

[@patriarchyenjoyer69]

With the rate at which generative art has been developing, I imagine that an AI MUD (that isn't just random chaos like the current ones) isn't far around the corner. If the AI could be taught to act within the restraints of a setting, it could be an extremely powerful tool for replicating the feeling of a true tabletop rpg.

[@RedSemen420]

missed your rambling videos, make them more offen!

[@ykalon]

Just have to mention that I love the Wizardry 6 to 8 games, Ultima 6 and 7, Might & Magic 3 to 8, Baldur's Gate and all derivatives AND Diablo . Plus all Bethesda RPG's

[@animaetmateria3578]

Always a joy watching you rant.

[@lazzledazzle7827]

Good to see another one of these rambling type videos.

[@UToobUsername01]

RPG = role playing. The way it is presented to you varies but RPG means you choose the type of character and must fulfill the role of the character to survive in the world. It's super generic, but it can be applied to all games that give players lots of customisation options. Eg Armored Core games are mecha simulation games. In many way it shares a lot with the dungeons and dragons where you choose races, skills, and backhistory which influences how the player will decide how to survive in the dungeons. It's just that in mecha sim, you choose what body the mech has and weapons. What RPG does is have rules and knowledge of the rules helps you survive longer and make more intelligent decisions based on how risky the decisions are. That is pretty much all the simulation stuff imo. That could include Animal Crossing (where friends leave or stay in the village based on how they feel and how you treat others) to CRPG like Baldurs Gate to Minecraft. (you focus on obtaining the best stuff to kill the toughest stuff and that is what happens in all the RPG: you start with garbage stats and by the end have god-slying stats to kill the evil bad guys with high stat) All games could be loosely labelled a RPG because they share the formula of having rules, knowledge of rules making you better at decisions, and a "dungeon" (the game world) being the place you explore to achieve the goal/quest objective. It sounds dumb but the fact is "RPG" is meaningless now because all games have the RPG mechanics forced into things LOL A good example is Saints Row having experience and level up systems. These are RPG mechanics inside a gang simulator. If someone says its an RPG you won't really have much justification for saying it's not one. Since many games borrow RPG systems and rules from "Pure RPGs" to keep the player interested progressing. The arcade hack n Slash Dungeons and Dragons game by Capcom, could still be a RPG because it has the levelling systems of rpg and lore and rules from DnD despite it being a hack n slash arcade game.

[@quickpawmaud]

RPG just means character development overtime. It is the only definition that fits everything classified as RPG.

[@Zhakaron]

Can't wait to play that RPG, Call of Duty.

[@quickpawmaud]

@@Zhakaron Call of Duty I guess could be an RPG. Would not be surprised if they put that on their steam page.

[@Galanthos]

The "you play a role" definition is actually used in Japan. In Japan, Phoenix Wright is an RPG. Videogame genres are hard though. I think that's why we so often resort to genre names that boil down to "It's like that other thing!" as in Roguelike, Soulslike, Zelda Clone, and Metroidvania.

[@Paulygotto]

I'm kind of consider this a good thing. It reminds me of the music genres like rock or hip hop where there's so much variety in it that you have a bunch of little subcategories.

[@alliselectrical4381]

You should not forget that the cRPGs of the late eighties and early nineties with a party (group up to of 4 to 6 characters) in a turn based style from first person view and grid based movement was the only thing that was available before 1992. So it was the limitation of computer technology of the time. Ultima Underworld was one of the first real time plus complete free movement cRPG of its time. And from there on the immersion of the players participation in the game with your reaction was born, which personally for me it's a huge advantage. But going so far as to remove almost all RPG elements like in Skyrim and Fallout 4 to focus even more on action and making it easier for beginners and kids to grab the idea is highly debatable. But yeah you are absolute right Zaric, it is a highly subjective matter to oneself based on definition and believe what an RPG game is and to which sub category it belongs.

[@nobody828]

L.O.R.D. Operation Overkill, and Trade Wars come to mind. I wonder if you can emulate door games or if any bulletin boards still exist?

[@jaguillermol]

Yes! Complaining is king!! People nowadays seem to either have forgotten the art and wonder of complaining, or have suppressed it because....someone might take offence!!!!!

[@theicedevil]

What is that Star Wars game with the UI that is ripped straight from Morrowind? Edit: Never mind. It a Morrowind total conversion mod called Starwind. I need to check this out.

[@matthewcarson3736]

Turn-based gameplay was never the core of what made something an rpg, it's what makes something a tabletop game or something inspired by tabletop games. Chess is turn-based and I don't think anyone would ever call that an rpg. The thing that's at the core of an rpg and what separates the Witchers/Zeldas/Sekiros from the Morrowinds/Baldur's Gates/Dark Souls is having the ability to make a unique character and have that character play differently from other unique characters on different subsequent play-throughs.

[@smuggrog9821]

And this is why I am praying that Modiphius produces an official Elder Scrolls ttrpg like the one they did for Conan. They already produced a wargame for Skyrim and Fallout, so I dont see why Bethesda wouldn't allow them to create a ttrpg for tes.

[@megamike15]

as a fan of both jrpgs and wrpg i get really annoyed when people claim the former isnt an rpg as you don't make choicse. so that means every game before 97 with fallout 1 isnt an rpg either as they were mostly dungeon crawlers.

[@FretboardToAsh]

Yes! Arguments for arguments sake, delivered with slightly more pretentiousness than befitting the subject, about subjects that don't matter beyond the subjective. This is what the internet was made for. Also, good to see you're back.

[@entropy6e]

An RPG being like Mario or Zelda is a bad thing...🫠

[@KnjazNazrath]

>No video game will ever be a true RPG experience due to the limits of programming SHODAN's pet project: Am I a joke to you?

[@robintst]

If you were there for the first Diablo, it was just Diablo. Anything after it that mimicked it's gameplay closely (like DarkStone) we called a Diablo clone much like Doom fans called post-Doom shooters Doom clones.

[@NoMastersNoMistress]

With the amount of computing power available to us now, and projects like OpenMW (which really needs a fork so it can handle something outside fantasy or Iron age "role playing") we have NO EXCUSES for not using these tools to create games which are closer to the types of simulations Julian Lefaye and other fellow table top era code jockeys have advocated. The engine and our current CPU's can handle all the variables we'd need to throw at it for SIMULATIONS, which can obviously be used for multi player sims as well. A CPU can simply track more flags than a single game master can track and simulate a broader world, which is really too much to ask from even though most talented GM.

[@zeo5527]

This is one of my favorite topics.

[@FalkZad]

mine too

[@NeoShameMan]

Ai dungeon called during your lifetime, as a prototype of real real RPG

[@largewings]

the cut to the brotherhood of steel clip was hilarious

[@lendrigangames]

While watching this and considering also the Choose Your Own Adventure side of RPG history, I've finally deduced a concise, objective metric for "true RPG;" A roleplaying game is a game where the story is the result of the game play instead a preset guidestone for it.

[@ivanmoraes1978]

Nice, quality channel. Keep it up, Zac! EDIT: But I wonder, is there a working definition of a computer RPG? Something that, by definition, gates games that are obviously not RPGs, but embraces in its definition the various kinds of such computer games? Mathematics suffers from similar problems, when it comes to a textbook definition. No one is in complete agreement.

[@oldtimetinfoilhatwearer]

I love the lecture format

[@jaffarebellion292]

I look at RPGs as games which focus in reasonably equal measure on combat, social, and exploration elements, and have gameplay systems to support each. Moreover, the ability to create and role-play your own character is another core aspect. It's why, and I may be weird for this, I call Stellaris an RPG. The difference is that you're not role-playing an individual character, but an entire empire. That's my weird take for the day.

[@royriley6282]

Most rpgs are what I call 'job simulators'. They task you to go through a series of predefined and often very arbitrary steps in order to complete the task and get a reward. Literally they are Skinnerboxes. If you are lucky there are two or a few possible predefined paths which the developers describe as 'choice' this of course similar to the 'choice' American consumers have between various brands of poison upon their mainstream grocery's shelf. One step better is how I design my own games where the 'choice' is really all that matters and there is no wrong choice. Now rather than the player being taken out of the world by trying to find where the hidden thing they need to click on is located (often needing to alttab and google the arbitrary crap) they instead are focused purely on the world and their choices. This is a good vrpg, a flowing series of choices in an immersive setting where there is no 'best choice' only the choice that reflects your characters. Sadly almost no dev gets this and so they crank out endless jobsimulators. Even 'gems' like FONV and PFKM follow this design methodology. Now one step better than even my design ethoc would be to take the kind of expansive physics engine that exists in a game like BotW and plug that into the game in place of limited arbitrary 'jobs'. If you do that then the ways you complete a problem really do become infinite. Obviously for a true rpg experience you would have to expand the fluid mechanics beyond just physics in order to encompass social interactions with NPCs as well like an ability to use persuasion on all actors without specifically scripted dialogue.

[@entropy6e]

Ultima Underworld was a huge step down from Ultima 6. It indeed wasn't a RPG in the same sense.

[@FaLaN69]

All hail! The lord is back!!!