Your Underfloor Heating Could Be Better - Here Is How.

#UFH #underfloorheating #radiantheating
In this video, I show you how to bring your underfloor heating to a modern standard and how to make sure it will be compatible with a heat pump in the future.

[@enm22]

Childish I know, but first, that said your installs are a perfect example of craftsmanship and attention to detail, thank you for your skill

[@markrainford1219]

Wiring is very messy.

[@stewartstewartstewart]

What’s the deal with the sentence? How is it childish?

[@enm22]

@@stewartstewartstewart Writing "First" as I was first to comment, childish, so unworthy of further comment ;)

[@AnthonyHigham6414001080]

The resistance to new methods in the construction industry is astounding. It took me twenty years to persuade architects, contractors and clients that underfloor heating was a good idea.

[@QnA22]

How about wall heating? Also something you don't see a lot.

[@konobikundude]

One word; Insurance.

[@jimd5983]

I can't find a heating contractor with experience with panel radiators which are next best and for an old home best choice. They all want to keep fin tube baseboard because its all they know.

[@adrianred236]

In my expieernce, Architects tend to be pretty useless with few exceptions. Anything they design, someone else has to figure out how to build. And they're super power is blowing budgets.

[@AnthonyHigham6414001080]

Mine too. In forty years of construction I've met just one architect who had a background in engineering. He was a joy to work with. @@adrianred236

[@LocostR1]

I'm so glad you made this video because from the vast majority of UFH videos (looking at you Skillbuilder) you'd think mechanical mixing was the best and only way to do it. This is exactly the combination of Vaillant controls and Esbe valves controlling a UFH zone and a rad zone we had installed by Andrew Millward a couple of years ago after we had issues with the original fixed UFH mixing valve and 3rd party "smart" controls that actually just turned the boiler on and off on a schedule. The new setup is SOOO much better, having determined the right WC curves for the UFH downstairs and rads upstairs with a bit of trial and error, our Ecotec 630 runs pretty much 24/7 at minimum temperatures, keeps the house temperature far more comfortable and consistent, yet still saves us about 20% compared to our gas consumption with the old setup.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Great! Those systems really work very well. Skill builder needs to take notice and come and learn how to do UFH properly from us and not promote slack of proper design and control

[@Yaqoobali1]

What's the best system to install when extending a property double sided single rear. Can you use traditional method with insulation pipes and screed on new lower floor and use a low profile system on existing old house? Issues with flow temperatures and keep rads or thermoskirt on upstairs?

[@Brijoolz]

Totally agree with what you’ve said. Physics is physics at the end of the day. I was involved a few years ago in a large property which had a mixture of underfloor heating on one level, rads on the upper floor and two unvented cylinders. If I’d removed all the unnecessary valves, actuators, control wiring etc, I could have saved the planet with all the needless mining!! Although we eventually had a working system, due to the poor design (our own it has to be said), the floor temperature was always too hot. I read something at the time that said if the floor temp was over 27oC, it feels uncomfortable to walk on. This, if I’m being honest, proved correct. Took me all my effort to give them something that heated the house. Just a shame we started from the wrong place due to bad design. Thanks for showing the way. Keep at it sir.

[@copperskills3973]

Been fitting ATAG boilers lately with there diverter valve and DHWP. Amazing set up and very simple to install

[@markfernandes2467]

I've heard good things about ATag. Pricey though right? Also, no one ever fits them. They stick with what they know I find. What areas do you install in ?

[@andrewriley4204]

Agreed, the ATAG systems offer equally good options for PDHW, and varied temp (Low Temp), Heating circuits, oh and Weather compensation

[@piotrkrajewski9059]

Neatly explained although SB blending valve completety not needed if the heater itself sets the temperature for the floor heating, much cheaper plus much more robust and, the mostly important- a lot quicker responding, would be maunal mixing temperature valve with the setting of 38*C.

True. Its for when you combine (high temperature) radiators that you need a better mixing. I sort of need tvis system myself. I have a weird thermostat based regulation which I think is meant to just limit the temperature but the floor heating seems to go way too high. Also the floor heating is missing all the regulation that my radiators enjoy.

[@elringoRS6]

Thanks for making these videos. Would love to see that Vaillant Hybrid one if it ever happens.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Thank you !

[@EliteHydronics.]

Great vid. we advise no pumpset and blend, actuators but try to convince the masses. controlling emitters dynamically in real time has so many benefits.

[@robertgreenaway5166]

Thanks for the video. Could you do a more in depth look into the wiring controls and setting up the boiler with hot water priority and weather compensation, setting the different flow temperatures on vaillant. Thanks

[@tarlochankaliroy1030]

Could you do a wiring chart to see what the layout is in visual form rather than just oral?🙏

[@LocostR1]

You might glean some additional info from Andrew's video here of our own installation using the same controls and mixers on the same split UFH/rad 2 zone setup. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYmYhYWVmpV9gK8si=Z4jGy9kVlslgXX7C

[@nmparmar]

@@LocostR1 very interesting. What room stat / controllers do you use?

[@LocostR1]

@@nmparmar We've got the SensoComfort VRC20f controller which is situated upstairs and linked to the upstairs radiator zone but it doesn't need to do a lot of temperature modulation, once the WC curves are set correctly the room temperature self regulates based on the target room temp / flow temp pretty accurately without needing a physical stat to control when it's turned up/down. Indeed on the downstairs UFH circuit we don't have any stat/controller at all, the UFH manifold runs without actuators and there's no room stat, it runs pure WC mode.

[@loving-plumbing]

Great informative video as usual. If you are wondering if engineers watch your videos and learn from them, I certainly have. Thanks

[@neilbissett1240]

Top notch as ever and top channel 🤔👏😎

[@NNP100]

Hi, love see how UFH would work without pump. Vaillant has 7m pump. Vaillant controls are best, but even vaillant is struggling to find an installer in my area. I installed only 3 so far.

[@stephencharles1398]

The cowboy plumbers that installed my 6mtr x 6mtr extension u/floor heating did not put enough pipework under the screed/tiles, I have to run it flat out at 60°c to get the room up to a max of 19°c. Need to have a radiator put in now as well.

[@ktmman3]

Does this setup provide hydraulic separation? Or would you need to run this setup with close coupled tee’s on a set up with just a primary pump,1 rad zone & PDHW??

[@adydanner]

Hi brilliant video. Would you do a video whereby you go through each component and let us know makes models and where to obtain them. Example being finding underfloor boarding that takes 100mm centres, electronic mixing valves at manifolds etc. some items you can find with a Google search but some of the other components are not so easily found. Thanks. Ady.

[@hiltonshaw5528]

The last comment is the best !! Great video my friend

[@olliegodwin3266]

Thanks for all the great content! Who would you recommend to design/supply an underfloor heating system?

[@LR52VUU]

In the process of installing UFH in a chilly 🥶 3 X bedroom ground floor flat. Could you please expand on all of the parts required to this? How does the customer control the heating in each individual room?

[@2003Sue]

Well said Andrew. We have 6 bedrooms, 4 lounges, large kitchen, large dining room, long corridorsm laundry, office and our Den where we relax. We do NOT want every room at the same 'balanced' temperature so use the traditional electric actuators and room thermostats so we can stop the heating to some rooms completely when not in use or the stat set very low to avoid condensation forming. Also our mixer valve works on a thermocouple to the manidold outlet, whish is standard practice and has worked 12 years with NO replacement parts. Therefore I donot agree with much of the Urban Plumbers thinking. I would definitely have changed the boiler for a lower output unkit as 36kW is more Combi hot water requirements for 2 or more bathrooms rather than go to a whole lot of labour time and installation of too many controls which bring on stronger probability of equipment failure. Living in Scotland, Aberdeenshire, we are known for our 4 seasons in one day, often within hours of each other. My UFH would not benefit from external temperature sensors as it would be heating full-on and then all stopping and terying to play catch-up. The Urban PLumbers constant temperature in the UFH would NOT suit our property.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

It would suit the property very well, just not your mind set

[@victoria-ud3xh]

Ignorance is bliss

[@2003Sue]

Do the maths guys. Heat 450 square metres with kerosene boiler for 12 hrs versus heating 50! Simples. Long before you get into weather sensors and wizardry to baffle the customers 🧐👍

[@MaxMakerChannel]

Can you give your advice on the connection diameters of circulation pumps? I see a lot of DN25 pumps even though I have a DN40 pipe comming in from my heat pump. I am a bit confused why the manufacturer have such small couplings.

[@peternagy7026]

OK, I understand that simplicity is a way to go for several reasons. What to do with this system if I don't want to heat one or two rooms? How can I switch them to lower temp of switch them off?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Use existing actuators as temperature limiters using existing stats but they can no longer fire the boiler

[@yevgeniyshawyer2767]

What is it next to the wiring center? There is another smaller white box wired to wr71. Thank you

[@Lutonfc88]

Brilliant video as always! I’m looking in to overlay UFH for my house. What company would you recommend?

[@whyfearfear82]

What about for bad insulated homes and low profile systems in relation to pipe work

[@adrianred236]

Can you do a video on air source heatpumps/mix of Rads and UFH with regard to the main factors which can result in an innefficient installation and how much each "mistake" can potentially affect performance?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Good idea. It’s on the list now

[@TheOldFellow]

Very interesting. Now, how do I rebuild my existing system. I have the heat pump, do I just remove the room (zone) valves and their thermostats (I'd love to do that), and just live with what the climate controlled heat pump gives. I have a couple of rooms with underfloor in 12mm pipe, I can't dig that up, but I could change the pumping regime from a fixed mixer to just a pump like you show. I will do the work myself. Hints are good, but pointers to reference material would be better.

[@Felix-st2ue]

I no expert. But I would try to simulate a heat pump first. Remove the valves and balance the circuits. Then, optimize the heat curve as flat as possible. The only thing that is missing is to verify that you get the correct flow rate.

[@christianpratt]

Fascinating stuff! I have underfloor heating with a manual blend valve (and pump) on the manifold - the very thing you're keen to avoid. I also have an ASHP with weather compensation, which is controlled by a VR70 and is set to provide different flow temperatures for the UFH, DHW (valved to work in isolation of the heating, as you recommend) and radiators. When the heating alone is running, in lieu of removing the manual blend valve, should I simply open it fully (position 5, I think) or indeed close it fully? (And, on that basis, should I only ever run the UFH at different times to the radiators, given they have different set flow temperatures?) For reference, I see a manifold Flow temperature of c. 43 degrees and a return temperature (measured the downstream side of the manual blend valve) of between 32 and 35 degrees, depending on how many zones are active. Any guidance gratefully received! Thank you.

[@imnothere220]

My problem is my heat loss is wrong. We can only work on assumptions about u-value of the windows as we don't have data and they take up thr whole south aspect. Its a problem in Ireland where the BER was done on default building values.

[@uki198720]

You said only one company design correctly ufh. What’s the name of it please?

[@anthonysalisbury6945]

What is brand / model is the electronic blender? Can you modulate the blend and is that controlled via the control centre? Which ufh system from what you have fitted have the best setup?

[@edcat6587]

What I do not understand is the uninsulated pipes mounted directly on the concrete walls.....

[@Divine_Evil]

I have the same ESBE valve. Any tips on how to set it up and improve my efficiency... I have a pellet burner with a boiler (about 50liters) with 45-65C working temp range. I have smartified the boiler with a Shelly relay and can turn it on/off and schedule anything I like. Flue temps are around 100-120C Hot water, I get through a serpentine which steals heat from the system. Which needs me to plan when I can take showers and they need to be quick :D.

[@Jb008]

How can you remove the zone valves? What enables zoned control in different parts of the home?

[@gainmaster1]

I think he is saying if zones are balanced on manifold then you dont need actuators. You prob need to work out the heat loss for rooms and house.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

2 zones only - rads and UFH controlled by pumps only - so called pump plan - less to go wrong and no need for any zone valves or actuators

[@grahamkneebone4742]

Great video, do you even need the pump on the underfloor manifold if there is one already in the gas boiler?

[@nevillethumbcatch5691]

In this install, yes as there's a header in-between the boiler and the manifold.

[@sheermagic]

Great video. Wish you were on the isle of wight.

[@thequietroom3991]

Does this approach work for alternate boiler brands? I have actuator supplied ufh with one room stat and blend valve on 16mm circuit 2 zone circuit. What are my options.

[@dickie997]

Very good video, well done.

[@AdeSuper7]

Which underfloor heating system would you recommend?

[@SimonThorntonVideo]

Hey! I have a worcester combiboiler, but can't see any literature on their wiring centres and whether this is possible or not. Can this sort of system be used with a worcester combi?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Only the a very few selected WB boiler and not very easily. WB is sadly well behind the curve with modern heating technology. Viessmann and Vaillant are the brands to go for next time.

[@nigelsmith7955]

When the pipe stat shuts of the pump, can the boiler pump still circulate or do you have check valve in the pump? Nice conversation.

[@danielrose1392]

That's why he added the additional pipe shown at the beginning. It allows recirculation from the boiler output to the boiler input, in case no zone demands water. This path has much less resistance, so no water will be pushed through the loops if their pumps are off. Obivously this will shut off the boiler because it will quickly reach it's temperature, but that's exactly what we want when no one is demanding heat.

[@gainmaster1]

What would you do if you are running your underfloor heating from a solid fuel stove? i guess there is no electronic valve control possible so old blending valve will still be needed?

[@johnc4323]

You can get independent electronic blending valves with weather compensating control, which will aid in comfort, but there is little to no efficiency gain when using on solid fuel appliances.

[@gainmaster1]

@@johnc4323 I think ill stick to my logs and turf as its such a cheap option for me. This is a really lovely system but its like wanting a ferrari prob will never actually happen. lol

[@davidoleary1922]

@@johnc4323 what about on a new condensing oil boiler? Be interested to know this

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes there are! They are even weather compensated ones

[@ErnaSolbergXXX]

We want different temp in different rooms and thats why we have to have all these electronic valves and we want to be able to easily adjust the temp we want. To be honest, it seems like its you who dont want to learn new things and are stucked in the old times.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

You can do that with temp limiters - no need for zone valves or on off switching to do that. If you run super efficient low temperature weather compensated set ups - the need for different temperatures is no longer there. As a matter of fact turning rooms off doesn’t even do that -it is very hard not to have an uniform temperatures anyway.

[@ErnaSolbergXXX]

@@UrbanPlumbers its strange how what you are suggesting was the standard 20 years ago and noby who got it installed are satisfied with it. Living in a place where we have almost 60 degrees celsius in difference in summer and winter times requires that there are actually some intelligence controlling the heating. Then you combine this with the possibility to remote control your heating configuration from your phone, so you can for example reduce the temp in your house when you are traveling and increase it till you are back.

[@jargolauda2584]

Replacing old pipes in floor heating costs fortune. Should floor heating be used at all? Except electric, which does newer need to be replaced.

[@SamDuke474]

Pipe spacings important too not just pipe diameter right?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

YES!

[@Angel_VR18]

If the manifold has its own pump do you always need the Kimbo header to create hydraulic separation?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Especially if then manifold has a pump you need separation

[@joncarter2178]

Great video!!

[@ecoterrorist1402]

Does Anyone know were that Electronic Mixer Full Details, I would like to purchase one.

[@johanvandendries2701]

Hydraulic wise there is still a lot room for improvement for instance with a pibcv regulating valve imi hydronics

[@rowanballinger3690]

I’m currently doing a heat geek coarse but how do I learn these new systems Is there pipe and wiring schematics available? Been in heating for 20 years and build electronics circuits for hobby’s so I could get into this,

[@UrbanPlumbers]

You have to figure it out yourself I am afraid - that’s what I have done with help of other engineers. I will make some tutorials soon, promise!

[@ktmman3]

Please do a vr71 wiring video 🙌🏽

[@mickeymongiovi1984]

Is the pump underneath the boiler pumping to the ufh manifold also ? Or is the ufh pump able to pull heat from the boiler ? Thanks

[@UrbanPlumbers]

no that is just for the rads

[@deanchapple1]

Great video!! Thank you.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

You are welcome!

[@juliansaunders6163]

Without the actuators how do you control individual room temps ???

[@UrbanPlumbers]

you dont have to. Weather compensated UFH is pretty much self regulating as the surface tempertures are very close to air tempertures. You can adjust indidual rooms by contorling the flow - so you control mean water temperature to individual loops.

Whats the model of the modulation valve you installed here?

To those wondering the same, the brand is ESBE. I found it after some searching. Thanks for the video!

ESBE ARA 600 proportional with an ESBE VRG130 is my guess

[@SkillBuilder]

Are you saying that the mechanical blending valve that you removed was not thermostatically controlled?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

it is fixed temerature and has to be set to the worst case scenario - usually just left way too hot. This then needs to be trimmed by overcontrolling: actuators and on / off stats - that is a very uncomfortable and inefficenct way to run UFH.

[@tomaszbonkowski1938]

SkillBuilder check my last comment on your movie, both valves are controlled based on the temperature, but here is weather compensated ( instead of setting manual mixing temp to 40 deg., the mixing temp is adjusted each time the outside temp changes)

[@Swwils]

This comment is embarrassing. The entire point is that it self regulates, if you had something that could modulate even lower you'd be running the floor at 20C and heat transfer would stop, won't overheat. What ok earth has happened to SKILL in the UK?

[@44cai]

Who do you get your underfloor heating kit from?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Some dodgy outfit that smuggles the kit form Turkey

[@norxand]

I'm not sure if high-tech is needed . Must rads and boiler are over size. Just like you recommend for pipe work.

[@charlespaine987]

While I can agree that in floor heating is great . Installation costs /repair costs are brutal. Remodeling or any floor plan change again costs are brutal. Achieving preferred independent room temperatures is going to increase complexity of any system but in floor is even worse . Adding A/C COOLING And ventilation are competing processes integrating is very difficult (expensive) The more we place our dependence in complicated control systems the supply chain gets more critical with direct replacement parts after a few years approaches impossible. Reliance on single supplier is problematic

[@jeff1172]

Can this be used on an oil boiler

[@smartboilercompany1983]

Top video as always 👍👍

[@mihaiachim5299]

I have a better method (just from my point of view) I would say in this type of installation: I would install 2 boilers in the house from the beginning: one for higher temperatures (radiators) and the other for underfloor heating; with both, I would limit the maximum heating power to avoid asking for a gas meter higher than 6 MC + to avoid unnecessary boiler cycling. I would install both boilers on climate compensation. Having 2 boilers gives me the following advantages: 1 Boiler automation is no longer necessary; just a simple proper setting of the operating parameters. 2 Most likely lower installation and implementation costs and times + a much larger number of installers capable of completing the work. 3 Redundant: any boiler you have will eventually break down, and if you have 2 boilers, either you heat at least half of the house until a technician comes, or if you leave some connection valves between the 2 boilers when one breaks down if you open them the boiler that remains functional will take over the heating of the whole house.... 4 the boiler pump can be used directly without external pumps for underfloor heating if the area is under 100 sqm (but I have a case with a friend where with 2 boilers he heats the whole house (140sqm per level) without additional pumps and he is extremely satisfied… To a friend of mine who installed 2 boilers in his house (one for underfloor heating and the other for radiators) following an incident in which a wrongly handled cement pump touched power poles ( + killed 2 wireless) and the fault in the power grid damaged the electronic board of one of the 2 boilers (immergaz/Alpha in the UK) and the electronic board was not in stock in the country because it was the period with the chip crisis....the new electronic board arrived in 3 weeks during which he heated his house with only one of the 2 boilers: on the installation he had bypass valves which he opened so that only one boiler would heat the whole house :)

[@elringoRS6]

What curve did you set? I have similar with the Vaillant mixing station and the rads and UFH can have different curves. Current 1.0 and 0.5

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Sounds about right - obviously too many variables to be able to just give a heat curve for rads or UFH. My own rads run at 0.3 heat curve for example

[@elringoRS6]

I'll see if I can drop it a little more and not get complaints from the family. Also, I set my hot water output to match the coil. Thanks for confirming this was a good ideal!

[@ossenworst3]

What did he mean by that alot of people dont designing a property for heat los?

[@ecoterrorist1402]

were did you get the electronic mixer could you give me a part no did the hammer win, with that black nail. That inverter is really poorly installed who would block any panel

[@chrishampele181]

Indeed. Inverter location was temporary. Moved now :-)

[@singlendhot8628]

Or you could just get a Viessmann 200-W boiler and do it all as a out of the box solution?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Still need divicons and relay boxes that cost more than the Vaillant kit

[@andyhodchild8]

​@@UrbanPlumbers and vaillant have better support.

[@singlendhot8628]

​@@UrbanPlumbers Absolutely. But when set up correctly, it works like a charm, wouldn't you say? Not to mention saving the customer even more £ over the life of the boiler, which a few V200 fans claim could be as long as 20 years!

[@AmiranBokhua]

Lucky customer left with heat pump ready system

[@bobsnabby2298]

So basically, the boiler temperature is adjusted by the external weather temperature. If outdoor temp goes low, we increase the boiler temperature.

[@dixonbg]

Sounds great, but this should not be a "general advice" as this is not applicable for all systems. First, this assumes the heat source is a gas boiler or a heat pump. There are systems with wood pellet burners. They need the high water temperature to work correctly around 65-75C. Not all of them have a buffer tank. They also modulate by demand, but they do it by keeping this temperature in the loop. In this case, you always need a mixer for UFH, and I do not see a reason for electronic mixers. Also, this video assumes that the heating demand is the same for all zones. But there are cases where, after the construction is complete, some zones have bigger heat loss for the same size. And some zones have different flooring. Not all can be fixed with balancing, and the easy way is to use thermostats in the concrete. Removing all zoning controls on an existing system will bring these problems back. So yes, good video, but for his specific region and customer base.

[@priteshpatel6053]

Does a vaillant control work with megaflo water cylinder?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Works with any cylinder

[@priteshpatel6053]

@@UrbanPlumbers how can it detect the temperature inside though?

[@chrishampele181]

@@priteshpatel6053 it has a sensor probe that wires into the VR71. This is a megaflo install.

[@mattmackenzie1111]

Where are you getting your ufh designs?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I do them myself - all UFH companies are useless for designs

[@davep1987]

​@@UrbanPlumbers What software do you use? I've tried LoopCad so far but finding it a bit fiddly, maybe I'll get the hang of it eventually

[@springtown24]

Only problem I can see is that the pipe statt will shut off the UFH too often and effect the UFH performance, hope I am wrong.

[@chrishampele181]

you are

[@springtown24]

@@chrishampele181 A plumber who has installed many UFH systems and who is interested in seeking to improve them.

[@dutchorangelion8137]

16mm outer of inner diameter?

[@AnthonyHigham6414001080]

It's european pipe and the OD is 16mm (they don't use 15mm) laid at 200mm centers.

[@garethmcguire632]

Nice to see the Solar PV kit in the way of the boiler flap. Ffs

[@chrishampele181]

temporary and now moved, so all is good 🙂

[@TheDickPuller]

Another good one Dracula. Vaillant vSMART stuff is brilliant & iBus protocol works great. The main problem we have in the UK is poorly insulated homes, Low Temperature CH is just farting at thunder. All the Tree Huggers & Hippies need to convince the morons in Westminster to fund Home Insulation - not fitting ASHPs. Hey, don’t get me wrong, I love Heat Pumps & been fitting them for over 30 years, but the Heat Loss of the property is more important than the Heat Generation appliance’s. Oi.....Don’t slag off British Installers, we’ve had happy customers for decades, you land here on your dinghy & start bad mouthing the locals!! The vast majority of Brits can’t afford expensive boilers & High End CH, it’s not all affluent(read effluent) south of Engerlanders you know, up here in the frozen north every penny is a prisoner! Sling a cheap Combi on the wall & take the money. As for UFH, always give the UFH used car salesmen a Heat Loss calculation before asking for a design. The only reason you use these companies, is to ensure you get the correct W/M2 design & a good Loop layout, that’s easy to follow when installing. NEVER let them do the HL calculation!! So thanks again for Nothing Dracula. Luv Dick Puller❤❤

[@peterreid4567]

That can’t be the correct distance in front of the boiler. And there’s not enough lagging for a start if that’s in the garage.

[@sygad1]

There needs to be a huge overhaul of the current crop of Combi Zombies stumbling into the heat pump world and not updating their knowledge

[@UrbanPlumbers]

trying my bit as much as I can! It will be a long long road ahead to make people understand modern heating.

[@Swwils]

Combi zombies perfect 😂

[@LindaMiller-w1x]

Satterfield Ramp

[@davidscott3292]

If all that pipework is in a garage there will be a lot of wasted heat (even with pipe insulation).

[@fredfred2363]

I hate to say it, but there are many things that are incorrect in your assumptions. You >>always

[@UrbanPlumbers]

No you don’t

[@deanfakes5314]

Reference zone actuators, i kind of liken this ( in a way ) to smart trv's, waste of time and energy

[@AnthonyHigham6414001080]

On a 24 loop manifold (for example) supplying zones that need to be off at times there is no choice. I've installed systems where the garage needs heating very occasionally (special screed required) but yes, if it's just two living areas leave them out and balance the output with the flow regulators.

[@VictorNascimentoo]

Are you Italian? A guy at work has exactly the same accent and voice as you.

[@andyhodchild8]

Viessmann had schematics for this independent weather compensation set up 25 years ago. The UK just love on off switching.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yep - my family has 25 years old viessmann WC set up in Poland. UK is sooo backwards when it comes to heating

[@defragsbin]

@@UrbanPlumbersDo you think it's partly down to the UK having a temperate maritime climate and a lot of coal, oil and gas? In countries with less forgiving climates, it's not an option to half-ass installs, so you have to do it better by necessity. I feel like the UK got away with being lazy for so long -- why bother insulating homes or designing systems properly if you can just burn more cheap gas, instead? Those days are over, so I am hoping there'll be a bigger focus on improving things. I just wonder how we fix this malaise, as we must be throwing away billions each year due to bad installs and inefficiencies.

[@rodgerq]

​@@defragsbinI think it's a case of a few problems. Being a country that is simply resistant to change. The old saying "this is how it's always been done" is just so ingrained in our way of thinking. People get comfortable doing things a certain way, are happy in their comfort zone bubble and don't like to hear that their ways could be improved. British exceptionalism is absolutely a thing as well.

[@andyhodchild8]

@@rodgerq I think that the public are I'll informed and so you start off with ill informed customers. I always tried to 'sell up', I remember trying to sell condensing boilers in the early days, early 90's, and it was hard. There were issues with the technology but the trade were very hostile. I agree about British exceptionalism which has always been a crazy xenophobic thing. I travelled in Europe in early 80's and most things were at least as good as here and many things were much better. Only central Europe was having a hard time under the dying days of soviet rule.

[@rodgerq]

@@andyhodchild8 And when you go to Europe now, they have it so much better than some parts of the uk. The public is definitely ill informed, that's true. But also don't like taking expert advice. I'll never understand this push back from people on new technology either, whether it's a heat pump or an EV car, there is a cohort of people who just pick fault with anything new. It's so weird to me why any progression is seen as a bad thing.

[@andrewmillwardwatford9410]

It is often the case that when the boiler is running on night setback a mixer will be required on the radiator circuit. This will depend upon the Delta t at the boiler and the design flow temperatures for the radiators in relation to the underfloor heating. A good rule to remember is that the underfloor heating will require a flow temperature to its mixer higher than its return to temperature by the Delta t at the boiler or the hydraulic separation. It's also worth noting that the hydraulic separation works in exactly the same way as a mixing valve for the highest temperature zone in operation. So for example if radiators and underfloor are working at 55 and a delta t of 20 for the radiators and 35 at a delta t of five while the boiler has a delta t of 20; the underfloor heating mixer would require a flow temperature to arrive at its variable temperature mixer of 50 degrees and the radiators would require the temperature of 55. To achieve this the boiler would not run at 55 but would run at a higher temperature to feed the low loss header where the first mixing would take place for the system. Here the higher flow rate produced within the system would be blended to 55 degrees to suit the radiator system and the underfloor heating variable temperature mixer would reduce the temperature from 55 to 35. The problem occurs when we want to run the radiator zone at a lower temperature during night setback for example. At this point we may need a flow temperature to the radiators lower than the flow temperature for the underfloor heating. In this case we would need a variable temperature mixer on the radiator circuit to enable the radiator circuit to run at the lower temperature then the underfloor heating. This phenomena is not an issue when you're working on heat pumps where the Delta t of the underfloor and the radiators and the heat pump are matched. I learn this the hard way when I had to return to a number of jobs to fit an additional mixer on the radiator circuits following complaints from customers of overheating bedrooms during night setback. There are ways of coping with this problem for example on the veesman boiler you can turn the radiators circuit off at night time to prevent the issue but many people want to have the use of nights at the radiator circuit to prevent excessively cold bedrooms and this control his only achieved if it is fitted with the variable temperature mixer.

[@PaulSmith-pr7pv]

❤

[@robharrison6918]

Well done. This is what I am promoting through my business too. The Vaillant controls work very well and I won’t give customers the option of anything else. I sell efficient systems not half arsed ideas. I have sold system control to customers that had boilers put in and left on S or Y plan. I have also asked other installers why they don’t do weather compensation. They belittled the customers by saying they wouldn’t understand it! I find the older customers more receptive to upgrading. One last year, after we removed a floor standing ideal and put a new boiler, 2 rad zone and hot water, weather compensating system in, said his gas consumption had reduced 30% from the previous year. Now that’s a pensioner. He is very happy. Thank you for your explanations and encouragement. I hope more installers will take the time to understand how to be better at installing low temperature heating.👍👍👏👏 dobrze zrobiony.

[@pt6423]

Very well explained and makes perfect sense. Your philosophy on heating is on another level.

[@Liam_Hirst]

also which company would you recommend for underfloor supply thats designed to my heat losses

[@miantamoorsaleem8287]

+1

[@Josh__Stevens]

I absolutely love your attitude and you are 100% correct on your talk about old methods and people not wanting to learn or expand their knowledge. As a Technical Manager (apprentice served electrician) for a business that’s owns 6 holiday parks, there are some really good methods and mindsets that you convey in your videos (weather comp etc) that i will look to deploy on our parks to make existing systems more efficient. We have loads of accommodation with UFH and Heat Pumps as well as traditional LPG Boilers. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

[@petersmith2650]

Great vid thank you for sharing. Who’s your preferred low temp UFH design company please?

[@miantamoorsaleem8287]

+1

[@civti]

+1

[@TheRpjenner]

Interesting. Nothing new but 30 years ago nobody was interested. Been doing this and much, much more for decades hardly anyone maintaining it understood. Keep up the good work.

[@sroberts605]

Actually that was my main concern - more sophisticated, better, but... more to go wrong?

[@lemmykilmister450]

Great stuff as usual. But so many installers are afraid of adding cost and loosing the business. It's sad that so many customers aren't interested, they just want something that works as it did before.

[@markgarnham748]

So refreshing to see a heating engineer who looks to provide customers with a setup that is fit for purpose and set to run as efficiently as possible, there are so many installers out there that are just interested in sticking a boiler on the wall without any thought about controls or setting things up to run for the good of the customer which is scandalous really when a lot of equipment built these days has so much more to give than an on/off setup and could be being used so much more efficiently with modern options.

[@sambutler927]

I agree with your point. On the flip side allot of clients don’t want to pay for quality and they are not interested in complicated set ups which will not save you enough to cover the extra outlay on installation, set up and the cost of the controls. That’s a fact.

[@Kris_M]

@@sambutler927 "not interested in complicated set ups which will not save you enough" But Urban Plumbers is in almost every case simplifying the setup and making them more efficient. Why wouldn't clients want that? I think it's rather that too many installers don't care and just want to move to the next job as quickly as possible.

[@sambutler927]

@@Kris_M yes you are right. Szymon is great. I’m referring to my experience of the majority of our customers couldn’t care less. They just want something that works for as little money as possible. And fancy controls can quite often cost more than they will ever save 👍

[@Kris_M]

@@sambutler927 Hmm, yeah, that VR70 and VR71 comes at 209 and 259 euros. If installers are adding margin on top of that, it might look (too) expensive for some.

[@sip5574]

With respect, many many many gas engineers have never been given the training to know how to design, install, commission and maintain CH systems to the level of the elite guys. In previous videos Szymon has mentioned about some of the training he has done (kimbo, heat geek), and the knowledge gained from doing those courses is career changing (was for me). Unfortunately training centres, NVQs and most training books don't cover what heating engineers really need to know, and it's only the guys that have the money, time and drive that will end up going on those course, completing and comprehend them.

[@davidalexander3675]

7:19 Who is the one company that knows how to design a UFH system correctly?

[@shaun6666]

Yes which company ?

[@miantamoorsaleem8287]

+1

[@no1knows121]

Is it possible to control temperature output in a similar way on a Worcester Greenstar 35CDi Classic System Boiler?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I don’t know. I don’t work on Worcester boilers - ideal and worcester are not really technically advanced at all in low temp heating.

[@no1knows121]

Thank you. It is possible, using an EMS-ESP board and Home Assistant, I have it all up and running with different flow temperatures for hot water/heating.

[@RowanSmith-y9x]

Thanks for explaining this, as a customer rather that an installer I feel much better placed to avoid being poorly advised. I think installers feel the commercial pressure to offer the cheapest upfront cost option, rather than the cheapest to run and most comfortable option. Meanwhile the customer does not understand there are potentially better solutions with marginally higher upfront costs, while in some cases, the same customer is spending freely on top end cars/kitchens etc but not knowing they are buying a sub optimal heating system. Assuming legislation does not help the customer, the only hope is education which to your credit you are providing

[@bigpete1986]

Spot on! The trouble is it’s never a level playing field as knowledge and competence in the industry is so vastly different.

[@gavonak2841]

Agree. 4-5 years ago when buying a new boiler and trying to solve a heating issue one installer quoted to convert me to S-Plan the other two did not include that. 12 KW difference in recommended boiler size between installers (the one offering the S-Plan was NOT the smallest boiler. I could not make sense of the answers I got when I asked the installer to explain their choices - so hard to know who to ask to quote and how much I could trust the sales pitch. Whilst I was procrastinating and waiting for summer before an install the old boiler gave up - needed to act fast so ended up taking the “safe and quick” route resulting in an oversized boiler ☹️. For the installer it must have been difficult to assess how much time it was worth investing to convince me to buy. @Urban Plumbers can a Worcester-Bosch Greenstar Cdi Classic 30KW benefit from a similar approach to that in the video? Edit: UrbanPlumber has answered a similar question elsewhere in the comments - essentially he does not work with these boilers so is not certain but he does suggest that generally they lack control.

[@RowanSmith-y9x]

It is so difficult, you could separate the designer from the installer but who has time for that when boiler breaks down, everyone would need the foresight to get their future heating needs designed just in case the boiler breaks down, just not going to happen. I do think the EPC should be replaced with a heat loss calculation then at least the owner of every house sold would be closer to understanding how to heat it

[@goblinsgym]

Sadly, the heating installers I had to do with don't know how to set up boilers to minimize the number of cycles. With some reprogramming I was usually able to reduce the cycle count massively. If the boiler is sized properly to the house, and has a good modulation range, it can literally run through the heating season 24/7 at low power and high efficiency.

[@TomPalacki]

Will there be vaillant vr wiring tutorial video? Regards

[@brotherjohnno]

Could you do a video of the Kimbo pipe design sometime please.

[@stixstonesinvestors5413]

Still cannot get enough of this channel. You are unreal geez. I just love learning from you, blows my mind. It’s a shame so many are stuck in there ways and don’t want to learn this. With ya all the way bud and thanks again for your effort in doing these vids 👊🏻

[@tomplumb7754]

Nice video, hopefully you will push more Installers into fitting modulation controls.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Ir was actually you Tom who told me about using ESBE on those set ups !