YouTube Has a Fake Bluegrass Problem: Reacting to the Most Viewed “Bluegrass” Videos

Hope you enjoyed this weird foray into pretend bluegrass. If you're interested in learning about flatpicking and improv for bluegrass guitar definitely check out our upcoming workshop in January:
lessonswithmarcel.com/workshops/
0:00 Why are we doing this?
3:07 How are we grading?
12:17 Grading The Videos
28:09 Final Thoughts
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[@LessonsWithMarcel]

Hey, just wanted to make sure y'all understand that I think the concept of a Bluegrass Report Card is dumb. Also, let me hammer home that I think overt traditionalism when it comes to defining a genre hurts genre-adjacent bands that could serve as stepping stones and kills the longevity of the genre as a whole by denying it the ability to evolve. Bluegrass being a great example. Genre's don't need report cards. As I said in the video, "Innovation is key in keeping the genre alive, but pedantic traditionalism makes for fun KZbin videos". 3:03 If you missed it, watch the end of the video where I repeat for the 5th or 6th time that this experiment holds no actual value. 28:09 By the way, the group from the thumbnail claimed this video. Hope they enjoy all the revenue!

[@andishawjfac]

You can do this with any topic really, it's a fun and silly bit of analysis that indeed holds no value. My favorite is to ask people to define a table, and then point out all the times they mention a feature that tables share with others, people end up saying all sorts of stupid things, like "a thing made of stuff you can maybe sit on" 😂

[@gegloos6837]

Main thing I do to define bluegrass is just ask myself "does it sound like bluegrass?" (For the record, the existence of a banjo doesn't make it bluegrass)

[@thejakefromstatefarm6768]

Could you please explain more clearly lol. Just drop a couple paragraphs and explain exactly what it is you are trying to say hahaha.

[@paulawhtkr001]

Anyone who thinks you were serious wasn’t listening. I appreciate you Marcel.

[@slowerpicker]

A bit disheartened that the postmodern jukebox crowd hit back by making a content claim on you. Not only do they not know bluegrass they also seem not to know how well brought-up folks should behave.

[@lesliecaraher6238]

I've played in Old Time string bands for fifty years. So many times I'd have folks say something like "I like your Bluegrass,etc". I've given up saying "This is Old Time not Bluegrass". I have better luck saying this is not Bluegrass. "It is Pre-Bluegrass." which still makes no sense to the person. I've had folks tell me that there is no pre-bluegrass. Nothing came before Bluegrass. To explain that in the USA there was 300 years of American music before Bluegrass came along does not improve things. Sometimes it is better and more polite to just say "Thanks" and accept the offered compliment with grace.

[@Arthurian.]

Ignorant compliments..... man they just plain suck. I feel ya, give me a right headache. So much so I'm avoiding social media and making handmade things for a while.

[@learningandgrowing7746]

Is there somewhere I can listen to you play? I've been learning to play old-time banjo this year and fiddle for the last couple months and am always looking for Old Time music to listen to.

[@ImNotToby]

I wouldn't take it as a slight or insult. You are a musician and think like one. The average person barely has a concept of a genre. But people do know what they like when they hear it. Take the compliment. Don't be a snob a out it. If their willing to learn, teach, if they don't care smile and nod.

[@ManWithAName425]

@@learningandgrowing7746 That was my band recording an Old Time album in Asheville in the same studio Steve Martin recorded earlier. All the songs are sourced from Round Peak, NC. Enjoy!

[@ManWithAName425]

@@learningandgrowing7746 Oh by the way, if you're interested in Old Time banjo check out YT videos of John Herrmann playing with Rayna Gellert. I lived with John, studying clawhammer banjo and there is no one better.

[@brookspn]

If I had a dollar for every time someone said "Bluegrass is awesome. I love Mumford and Son!" I'd have quite a few dollars.

[@WarrenPostma]

I’d have zero dollars.

[@eternallife9786]

Anybody that says that I play flat and Scruggs for them and they're usually into it and I say that right there is bluegrass

[@brookspn]

@@WarrenPostma it may be less like this now. In Austin, TX in 2011 though, it happened all the time!

[@alexthelion335]

What's wrong with Mumford and Son?

[@eternallife9786]

@@alexthelion335 they're more like a singer songwriter indie folk band that happens to use instruments you would see in a bluegrass band

[@bluegrass2368]

50+ year bluegrasser here, I completely agree with your asssessment of these songes. Most of todays Popgrass songs are cringworthy if not embarrassing, but hey I'm old and like traditional Bluegrass, thank you

[@eatadick4127]

How dya feel about Sierra Hull. Does use some modern influences here and there but on the whole, I reckon she's the real deal

[@eternallife9786]

Carolina chocolate drops if you actually want traditional pre-bluegrass banjo

[@kimbarator]

@@eternallife9786 YES !!! ❤🪕

[@johnbaker4666]

Doc himself was not really ever bluegrass. He was folk and as he always called it" Old Timey" even on the rare occasions he played with Bill Monroe. Yet he's one of the defining figures in the modern style. I think that's emblematic of what happened. Part of it is that Doc was the key figure in redefining the flatpicking guitar style before people like Tony Rice came on the scene. Doc and similar artists on the folk scene made a bridge to traditional country particularly with the help of the Nitty Gritty Dirt band after the great folks scare died down and most folk became singer/songwriter pop rock. When the bluegrass festival scene took off particularly after the big boost from Jerry Garcia's "Old And In The Way" it slowly became the central outlet for old time music. And Doc's Merlefest ended up being a central place for both so it all got run together. Related point, will bluegrass proper ever acknowledge Jerry Garcia? He's really to bluegrass what Ray Charles was to country but they just don't seem to want to admit and acknowledge it like country did by putting Ray in the hall of fame.

[@thejakefromstatefarm6768]

Bluegrass festivals opened up opportunities for querkie bands that don’t fit in any genre to get booked in order to get a wide range of artists so they can in return get a wide range of audiences and make as much money as possible off the tour. You can find some of THE best bands at a bluegrass festival by the way. But bands that aren’t really bluegrass get thought of as bluegrass because people seen them at a bluegrass festival. It’s best to aproach the situation with the idea that you like good music and don’t get too concerned with genres. Good music comes in all genres there just no good music festivals touring so you can’t lock yourself down to a genre or your favorite band as a certain genre because your favorite punk rock band might appear at a bluegrass festival or your favorite bluegrass artist may appear at a pop festival. Genres will get in the way of you enjoying good music.

[@pansophia93]

Jerry Garcia started out as a bluegrass player. There's a video here on YT where he says he slowed down old bluegrass records to where he could pick out each individual note. A lot of this early influence comes through in Working Man's dead, and the legendary Ripple. Although neither the album or song I mentioned are strictly bluegrass, the influence is definitely there.

[@smelltheglove2038]

I’m a bluegrass fan because of Jerry.

[@tylerhurd9569]

Doc was a lot of things in my opinion. I could hear piedmont blues, folk, and bluegrass in his style.

[@nilsniemeier5345]

It's the same thing with Ralph and Carter Stanley. They called it "mountain music," but they're "bluegrass" for most of us.

[@rubberduckiemom4602]

Mom is from the time Bluegrass was "created" and she was laughing through the whole thing. She commented, "I hope he rates himself low for presentation. He should have worn a suit." Hahahahaha! My husband kept telling her, "He is rating if it is Bluegrass or not!" Watching the two of them was hillarious!

[@onehundredpicks5531]

Thats funny man!

[@robertnewell5057]

Yay your mum - and the cap on backwards. That went out years ago.

[@commontater8630]

@@robertnewell5057 Bull. I wear my cap backwards whenever I don't like the bill sticking out frontwards.

[@taylorhorner1065]

@@commontater8630 right and sometimes a red neck needs shade

[@commontater8630]

@@taylorhorner1065 That's right! It's red enough already!

[@fenderjag114]

There’s a lot of confusion out there. I have a guitarist friend who is quite knowledgable about classic rock, blues, jazz, etc. I told him I had been listening to a lot of Bluegrass lately and he said, “oh, you have to check out so-and-so!“ He sent me their video. They were a perfectly competent americana/alt country-type band, with no trace of bluegrass in their sound whatsoever. I thanked him politely.

[@fixedrider5912]

Who was it? I'm curious...

[@fenderjag114]

@@fixedrider5912 Honestly, I can’t even remember. Nobody famous. Just a very decent americana band. I could find the name if I went poring through my old emails…. But really, I don’t want to disparage them. They were a good band. It’s just that my friend had no idea what Bluegrass is.

[@procarpenter1788]

You are a good human. Good on you for not disparaging a band.

[@margarethouse404]

For the general public , and most afficanados of vaguely popular music genres , Everything all accoustic , with any hint of hillbilly- ness , is all Bluegrass . Hence , sampling the most viewed you tube videos . reflects that . To be fair . when my young guitar playing friend explains and demonstrates difference genres of Metal , it all sounds the same to me .

[@jasonduncan2942]

"Shame on you for trying to bottle up Doc". Thanks for that one, Doc is the man.

[@waynejohnson3214]

I remember old grouchy "gatekeepers" complaining that Tony Rice was damaging Bluegrass and labeling every lead guitar player a Rice clone. I just kept buying Tony's records and enjoying them.

[@musicofanatic]

Tony Rice never wore hot pants or a coonskin cap on stage. Few presented themself with more dignity in pubic performance, and his series of Bluegrass Albums set a nearly unattainable standard in Bluegrass music. Traditional Bluegrass music owes Rice a lot!

[@scotttam7491]

@@musicofanaticso what if someone wear hot pants or whatever if they can shred the grass an make you ears happy why it matters

[@musicofanatic]

@@scotttam7491 I have a high level of appreciation for a dignified delivery such as Rice's was. It is quite well known that he placed great importance in presenting hisself well in public performance out of respect for his audience. If this matters not to your, that is your choice. Further, I always thought "shred the grass" was something done in the yard with a lawnmower. Tony Rice played music.

[@scotttam7491]

@@musicofanatic shred the grass just means he shreds on guitar an plays bluegrass. Furthermore I’m not saying toney didn’t Dress well I’m saying a lot of ppl back in the day thought his style of playing wasn’t bluegrass or not traditional. IMO tho what’s it matter if a person dressed a different an doesn’t play traditional. The only way to be original is to do your own thing. I just feel that as long as the music is good I don’t care what they wear or if it’s traditional

[@MrPDTaylor]

Arguing about genre is fun. Gatekeeping is fun. Billy Strings considers himself a bluegrass gatekeeper. I love bluegrass. I love jazz. I love electronic dance music. One of the main reasons I love all of these is because definition of the genre is so important. The gatekeeping in the bluegrass community is mild compared to the gate keeping in the electronic dance music community.

[@K0sm1cKid]

It's a fair point. If I want to find a certain style of music it helps if the genre is gatekept a bit. If a fusion genre exists that draws inspiration from Bluegrass, it doesn't help much to say that it's just bluegrass if I want to hear more music like it. I listen to more metal and electronic music, if I am listening to grindcore it makes no sense to say it's death metal because they aren't the same. If I am looking for more music that resembles grindcore it doesn't help if I am searching for death metal. Reminds me of the current conversation around Phonk and drift phonk, drift phonk is sort of drowning out all other Phonk that has existed where it makes it hard to find any phonk that isn't drift phonk. Fair enough, It's inconvenient. That should be gatekept to some extent. You don't need to trash on the other genre to gatekeep it either, the purpose is to keep categories productive at their function.

[@davidcann2405]

Postmodern has never tried to pass themselves off as a bluegrass band. They are mostly jazz musicians doing jazz versions of various modern songs.

[@cactusjackNV]

Fair enough, however they put Bluegrass in the title which is a wee bit suspect. And how many people before watching their video have even heard of Post Modern Jukebox before? Point being, the video wanted to let people know that what they were hearing was not 100% Bluegrass.

[@eternallife9786]

What's cool about the postmodern jukebox is that they occasionally incorporate jazz grass stylings you casually hear some ragtime maybe a little Dixieland maybe a little Western swing all genres that incorporate a fiddle a banjo mandolin guitar

[@whitecreamymilk8436]

To be fair music classifications are kinda dumb.

[@Adamdidit]

@@cactusjackNV How many people had already heard of the channel with 5 million subscribers that does touring live shows? I'm guessing a few.

[@Avocado7765]

Just because it has bluegrass instruments doesn’t mean it’s bluegrass. It doesn’t mean it’s bad, just don’t claim it’s bluegrass. I understand bill monroe had a very particular judgement of bluegrass as well and as a banjo player myself, I don’t think it needs to be that strict. The way I see it, it’s never gonna be what it once was lol.

[@blakesorie1]

"Let's give them half points because a cello is half the size of an upright bass." Best line of the video! Thanks for this, Marcel! Entertaining, but also very informative.

[@oldtimetinfoilhatwearer]

Nancy Blake would be very upset!

[@musicofanatic]

@@oldtimetinfoilhatwearer Nancy and Norman Blake never for a second marketed themselves as being Bluegrass music. Regardless of their greatness or legacy, they would have scored poorly here

[@oldtimetinfoilhatwearer]

@@musicofanatic "We like to think we play country music. And we also like to think a whole lot of other people don't." -Norman Blake

[@nilsniemeier5345]

Apparently Appalachian dance bands in the 19th and early 20th centuries used cellos for basso continuo until the songcstchers told them to use upright bass.

[@shredrik]

"Shame on you for trying to bottle up doc like that. He played a lot of different stuff, not just bluegrass." Love it.

[@MountainHomeJerrel]

It's quite elitest to say "F mandolins only". Can you personally hear the difference between F and A style mandolins on a recording? Does having your mandolin cost less money because it doesn't have a scroll stop you from playing it the exact same way as an F style?

[@Flat_Stanley]

This is a good example of why this video is pure idiocy!

[@bsdml]

Thanks for the video, Marcel! And contrary to what you might think, it is not at all silly that you're doing this. Speaking for myself, I am very much the opposite of a "style purist" when it comes to music-especially what I play, so I feel you there. But as someone who personally loves Bluegrass, and has friends out there legitimately trying to make a living from it, I think videos like this are important for setting the record straight. Because this whole-sale watering-down of what "Bluegrass" even means doesn't help those who go out and do it for real, and who try to keep the tradition alive, while putting food on their families' tables. Why make them compete with a bunch of imposter bands? THAT's the real silliness! And yes, of course, folks are gonna try to argue back in all the predictable ways they do (just like you mentioned they might), and that's fine. And really...If ya'll wanna go dress up like a hillbilly sideshow and sing some cool, catchy tunes with your flat-picking banjo friend and his washboard-playing cousin, then by all means, GO for it. But for crissakes, CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE! Don't leach off the name "Bluegrass", just to give your band some kind of counterfeit legitimacy. Invent your OWN name/style/genre/whatever. Only if you do this, can you have any ground to stand on from which to look folks in the eye and say: "We just play music, bro, and music is just music!". Okay, rant over. Thanks again~peace

[@LessonsWithMarcel]

I've been booked on the same bill as a lot of those bands. It is a difficult situation to be in when to the booker's ear it's all bluegrass.

[@musicofanatic]

Agreed

[@margarethouse404]

@@LessonsWithMarcel But does the check bounce ?

[@margarethouse404]

I like various other related genres , and even play some . And that's fine . Just don't call it Bluegrass when it's not . No shame in playing Americana , Old Tyme , or Alt Country , etc . Even some of the primarily accoustic Jam Bands . Be proud of what you play , just don't advertise it as what it's not .

[@thegatorgar6730]

Halfway in, I’ve already had so much fun just hearing you explain the grading rubric.

[@mattmuzic1]

I tell you what, you have a real gift for visual aids in your presentations. I think generally, you're just a good teacher and great at explaining things. Thanks for the great content!

[@paulawhtkr001]

Couldn’t agree more

[@augustinewestley7310]

As a modern 4-string Banjoist, I think these tunes are labeled "Bluegrass" based on the fact they feature a banjo. The banjo is a versatile instrument, but just because its a song with a banjo, does not make it Bluegrass. (Imo, the six strings banjos are cheaters, and don't count as a type of banjo, glad to see the deduction).

[@TROBassGuitar]

As originally a clawhammer player (I dunno how to play without my nails hurting) and I've been trying to learn bluegrass with the finger picks on recently, I've always been annoyed by dudes just playing a guitjo or banjotar whatever you want to call it, and then putting it in songs as a replacement. It used to annoy me when guitar players wanted to play my banjo, and just played it like a guitar as well. That isn't as prevalent now but still lol

[@darthmusturd9526]

I’ve been picking up the banjo recently, wondered if a banjitar tuned in open g would be considered a banjo again as the main difference between a banjitar and a banjo is the tuning to my understanding

[@edeledeledel5490]

4-string? Plectrum or Tenor?

[@augustinewestley7310]

@@edeledeledel5490 its a Tenor, but i turned it to open G. I started with a 5th sting model but found the drone sting too combersome when switching between songs and styles while preforming on stage. I also have an electric hook up for peddles and amps.

[@augustinewestley7310]

@@darthmusturd9526 im not sure with 6 strings. For me to count it as "legit" Iguess the top bass stings would function similar to a D drone string(?), with standard banjo tuning for the bottom five (DBGDg). But the biggest difference is the short fat nack with wide frets of the guitar.

[@bp7152]

This was really fun to watch. Like a musical Sports Center or something. Good stuff, Marcel.

[@shredrik]

Marcel, don't feel bad. This is something that needed to be addressed with honesty. Appreciate it, we needed this!

[@kennedyland1]

I don't know. . . I keep it simple. If I like something, I'll play it no matter where it comes from, or whatever genre it is labeled. I sit in "Bluegrass" jams. We play fiddle tunes, old time music, and so on. There seems to be some sort of undercurrent of propriety, but the imaginative and secure players ignore it. When someone rather sheepishly says, "Do you mind if we play, "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere by Bob Dylan?" I always agree. I mean, if you want to play "I Got You, Babe" by Sonny and Cher, I say go do it. Like Duke Ellington said, "There are two kinds of music - good music and the other stuff." Let it all sing out, rather than get stuck in labels.

[@ronuyeyama4020]

I like this video. I participated in my first bluegrass festival this past summer. I had no idea what bluegrass was, but I showed up with my guitar and had a great time learning! Your videos help me learn as well!

[@skweetis]

Many traditional bluegrass musicians played oval-hole mandolins. Roland White, Red Rector, Ira Louvin, Peter Ostroushko, Curly Seckler, Audie Blaylock, Jimmy Gaudreau, Jethro Burns all played oval-holes at various points in their careers. Granted, not all these guys played bluegrass all the time, but they certainly did have oval-hole mandolins while playing bluegrass some of the time! And besides, Bill himself recorded with an oval hole: Monroe's Hornpipe, Big Mon 1958 original cuts (and several others off that album) were on an old Gibson F-4.

[@LessonsWithMarcel]

Yes Alex, I'll take "comments that I've been waiting for patiently" for 200.

[@skweetis]

​@@LessonsWithMarcel LOL figured that was the case. I'd imagine the reason "bluegrass gatekeepers" are a thing is because so many of us are passionate and nerdy about this music, and tend to have a lot more knowledge about it than is reasonable, so when someone who is newly exploring the world of bluegrass comes in, full of enthusiasm, we feel obligated to share our knowledge, whether they want it or not.

[@Paul-pp2hp]

That was a pretty silly statement though, so I can understand why you commented to correct the record.

[@LessonsWithMarcel]

@@Paul-pp2hp You know the crazy thing is I thought I'd catch lip from either the mandolinists about oval holes or the fiddlers about the shuffle style accompaniment. Heard from several mandolinists in the comments but no fiddlers yet... In fact, it's kind of quiet in this comment section. Maybe a little too quiet... Oh no, it can't be. The fiddle players have breached our blockade to the east. Hold steady men!

[@als4817]

@@LessonsWithMarcel "comments that I've been waiting for patiently" for 200. Priceless ,,,

[@kjerstinlie2938]

I've had "tried to DOmeStiCate ya" stuck in my head for days after you editing this.

[@tannerevans3056]

I’ve honestly just given up trying to tell people that bluegrass isn’t just shitty acoustic covers of pop songs. But when someone sends me one, i at least know to never talk to that person ever again. I love traditional and somewhat progressive bluegrass and listen to it….most of the time. And I’ve got no problem with people exploring the boundaries of bluegrass and taking it into new innovative music. The problem comes when folks don’t know the roots and history of the music and just slap a banjo (dear God please not a banjitar, or even worse a mandotar) on something and say hey! We’re bluegrass now! You gotta know where the music comes from. You can’t say you’re playing bluegrass if you haven’t even heard the names Flatt & Scruggs or Bill Monroe. Also i used to pick with a guy that called electric bass “city bass” and that one’s really stuck with me.

[@earcamera]

😂 that first paragraph

[@als4817]

Thanks for posting, great comments !

[@procarpenter1788]

“Never talk to that person ever again” Wow.

[@tntkop]

I’m 61 yrs old and have been a bluegrass fan since I was a kid. Been to countless bluegrass festivals all over Oklahoma and Arkansas. As a musician, I so deeply appreciate the musicianship and history of the music. After following Billy Strings for years, I recently saw him for the first time in OKC. I invited several musician friends to go with me. To my surprise, one of them said, “Nah, I’m not into that cocaine bluegrass.” I was like: WTF? Cocaine bluegrass? Obviously he had no idea of Billy Strings’ knowledge or appreciation for traditional bluegrass music. All musical genres experience changes over time. But, in my humble opinion, bluegrass is one of the few genres that has stuck to its roots over time. And Billy Strings definitely pays homage to the traditions of bluegrass. Cocaine bluegrass? I don’t even know WTH that is. Rant over.

[@chuckrrose]

Right on, sir. On a traditional note, Billy does a very credible version of “Miss the Mississippi and You” cycling flat picking back through country music’s origins. Cool.

[@JohnnyRebKy]

He sings a song about being on Cocain. He’s been very open about his past and his mistakes with drugs. Singing about doing drugs ( other than alcohol) isn’t something that’s really been done in bluegrass before. So that’s likely what your buddies are talking about. Billy is kicking down some walls per say on that subject. Bluegrass music about being on coke is pretty taboo and Billy is pushing the norm with it. Doesn’t bother me any but some folks don’t care for it. They likely think it tarnishes things

[@thevintagemusiccompany57]

@@JohnnyRebKy Doc did Let The cocaine be. Peter Rowan talks about mescaline in Panama Red. I’m down with it.

[@vernonhoover3060]

“Kicking down the walls” and “pushing the norm” is what has ruined country music, and it will destroy bluegrass in the same way. Billy Strings has an incredible talent, and when he plays bluegrass, it’s really good, but I’m not interested in hearing bluegrass songs based on drugs, sex or drinking.

[@tntkop]

@@vernonhoover3060 Many traditional bluegrass songs dealt with moonshine and alcohol. Many traditional bluegrass songs even dealt with depression and even murder. Today’s bluegrass just incorporates today’s vices. I think it’s still traditional bluegrass.

[@drew369]

🤣Now I'm gonna rush out and git meself a "my grass is blue" bumper sticker! Too much fun Marcel, you, uh...Rock!

[@MasonCroneMusic]

It's honestly crazy the amount of ignorance that exists when it comes to bluegrass among people who don't really listen to it. The Guns N Roses and ACDC songs weren't even CLOSE to bluegrass 😂 Way too many people think "There's a banjo on the screen, it's bluegrass!"

[@musicofanatic]

Same with most genre, like with jazz...people hear KennyG or the weather channel or step into an elevator and think, "Oooo, jazz!"

[@pauljs75]

@@musicofanatic But jazz is more inclusive and stacked with sub-genres. As diverse as the differences between what you'd hear played Benny Goodman, Louis Armstrong, and the likes of Carlos Santana or Herbie Hancock. Not going to mix up big band swing with dixieland, latin jazz, or jazz house, but all still fall under the main genre that would qualify as jazz. The issue with "bluegrass" is nobody is sure where to put stuff that falls between folk music and country that has some hints of blues or gospel with no clear definition towards any particular end of the spectrum. Some want to keep the definition tighter than others.

[@musicofanatic]

@@pauljs75 "...where to put stuff that falls between folk music and country that has some hints of blues or gospel with no clear definition towards any particular end of the spectrum.." Uh, Americana?? (not my term, you understand, nor do I endorse it's application...)

[@garfbuckle9081]

@@musicofanatic yeah if i wanted to hear jazz i could just bang two trash can lids together there's no difference

[@musicofanatic]

@@garfbuckle9081 Nice...funny...sorta...

[@martinparmer]

Great video. Not stupid, not useless. It's something we love and needs to be properly defined and you did a fantastic job. The educational leap that needs to happen is to understand that much of the music often being classified as "bluegrass" is most likely "Americana". Americana music is a very broad term that can include tons of styles and variation and is often very enjoyable to listen to. Some artists creativity is really impressive. Of course Steve n Seagull is not bluegrass, but I sure like listening to them!

[@Ravenscaller]

Molly Tuttle went Americana on her first record which was disappointing but she's tried to pull that back recently. So which is she? Depends on the song and style of playing. There is a video of her and band doing "White Rabbit" on stage live in flannel pajama outfits that is authentic bluegrass with a little fun added.

[@kerrykrishna]

That was tons if fun Marcel! This is second vid of yours I have seen, and it is pretty darn cool. Good vid production in studio.

[@quadroonsaundy8751]

Thank god for all the tabs on Lessons With Marcel's website so I can play my own Bluegrass and don't have to rely on very, very, bad youtube recommendations.

[@joshwest1614]

Great video. Okay now I want you to apply this system to Greensky Bluegrass, Billy Strings, Infamous Stringdusters. Two songs each. The grassiest one you can find and the ungrassiest one you can find for each.

[@margarethouse404]

I'm not Marcel , but those are fairly obvious ( and no reflections on their skills and music) . Billy Strings has already been discussed at length in the comments . Greensky is Bluegrass influenced Jam Band . Stringdusters can move at will from Progressive Bluegrass to Jam Band .

[@AlwaysLookingUpUFO]

The play style of vocals you explained is spot on👍! Dynamic's of sound is key for a knock-out of any unsuspecting listener.

[@supaF]

DO ANOTHER ONE! This was so funny, and was really helpful for me as someone who's wanting to not only listen to more but PLAY some bluegrass.

[@healyholtmando]

Thanks for adding the "get up John" mandolin tuning exception! You've clearly thought this through...

[@t7389sg]

Well thought out, smart and well produced. U Funny Marcel.

[@ahdcehs]

My first law of banjos: "A banjo must have more than 4 strings and less than 6." Fun video!!!!

[@vireogilvus]

*fewer. But also, correct.

[@musicofanatic]

@@vireogilvus Sonny Osborne and others experimented with 6 (not like a guitar-banjo, but a 5string with an added low string). But then again, Sonny did whateverthefuck he wanted...

[@vireogilvus]

@@musicofanatic and Bobby Osborne dressed like a pimp

[@elmercummings3212]

That was fun and I also thought it was fair and even informative. Well done! Thanks.

[@paulawhtkr001]

Thoroughly enjoyed this. I’ve only recently started delving into bluegrass with my guitar playing and my spouse who doesn’t play has listened to the genre much longer than I. We’ve had a lot of similar discussions. It will be fun to watch this with her.

[@HamiltonMechanical]

definitely a difference between bluegrass and music that obviously was inspired by bluegrass elements. I always appreciate a good nod to who's influenced you, especially in songs like the one by the dead south, wagon wheel, constant sorrow.

[@ralphdoak9715]

Traditional Bluegrass is down home and heart felt disappearing before our eyes, when I joined Kaintuck 3 years ago traditional was my passion and still is and will continue to be, this band has stuck with it even if it isn't popular especially among the younger generation. We have a great thing going and I hope it continues until my departure from this life.P.S. Flatt & Scruggs forever!!

[@henriklundqvist1328]

Thank you Marcel for a great video and explanation of the genre. It does clarify a lot without saying something is better than other. It still come down to the matter of taste, but great tool to help us define what we are talking about and what we are trying to play. Keep up the great work and I would love more videos of this kind, both more around traditional bluegrass and other neighbouring genres.

[@dwreal]

The first I saw Danny Barnes was about 1991. The Bad Livers covered Metallica and Motörhead, but also played more traditional bluegrass as well.

[@lordofthemound3890]

Not Bluegrass-related but still a funny story about the “gatekeeper” syndrome: We all know about Dylan going electric at the 1965 Newport Folk Festival. There was a big backlash against him from the Folk purists who felt that Dylan’s new electric sound was “too commercial.” The Newport Folk Festival was created in 1959 by George Wein, who had earlier started the Newport Jazz Festival. He had already tried to add a “Folk Night” to the Jazz Festival in 1958 but faced considerable backlash from jazz purists. Why? They felt Folk music was “too commercial.”

[@oldtimetinfoilhatwearer]

Based

[@chuckgrennell496]

Thanks, Marcel. As always interesting and edifying. I first saw the Dillards at the old Ice Hose in Pasadena, California in the early 1970s. At that time Doug Dillard had moved on and had been replaced by Herb Pedersen, on the banjo. Rodney Dillard (guitar), Dean Webb (mandolin) and Mitch Jayne (standup bass), all original members, were still with the group. They had, at that time, added a drummer whose name I don't remember. Mitch Jayne introduced by saying that they had first seen him playing drums on the Preparation H Float at the Rose Parade. I saw the Dillards many times, at the Ice Hose, after that. That was my introduction into the world of Bluegrass.

[@musicofanatic]

House. Ice HOUSE. As an aside, when I played there in the later 1970s, they had ceased to pay their ASCAP/BMI dues and we were told we could only perform original material. We may not have scored to well on a Bluegrass Report Card when we played there...

[@samsaxe-taller7145]

“It looks like he’s about to flatpick this banjo” Best moment

[@slowerpicker]

Yay for this. Presentation: 10/10 (for the hat on the rack, homage to Bill Monroe); Song choices: 9/10 (ya missed the cover of Rocket Man by Iron Horse); Scoring system: 10/10. Overall: A! I have tried to explain to friends and family what bluegrass is and the differences between bluegrass, old-time, string band, country, gospel and folk music, but yours is far and away the best and most complete explanation I've come across. The exercise is not stupid. Music schools in recent years have added coursework in bluegrass, so folks are getting paid to teach it, and students are signing up to get good at it. You've done a service to us all by explaining it.

[@gmwPaul]

AGrEED across the board. YES! Bluegrass is Formalized and made for bigger audiences, radio, commercial recording. Performance values are important. One thing I would add is that beyond just the instruments - the core of bluegrass is the instruments / musicians work together to weave the rhythm and the melody into each part, everyone taking their line. It's about working together and not just everyone playing loud and fast, and not just one instrument holding down the beet.

[@davedennis6042]

The Osborne brothers were one of the first to put the lead up high and drag the tenor underneath. When they did this back there in the 60's, this was not the way it was supposed to be done. But it worked for them. Also they were another band that used electric bass. This didn't set well with Bill Monroe, but Bobby didn't really care. They used drums in some of their music too.

[@talon1623]

I appreciated the self-deprecating presentation but, honestly, I don't think there was anything dumb about this at all. In fact, you put your finger right on what I think is a kind of problem that bluegrass has, which is how confused people are about it. That's what allows all these pseudo-bluegrass videos to pass as the real thing. I can think of dozens of people I've spoken with over the years who would probably learn a lot from this video bcs they don't know that drums or pianos aren't part of bluegrass or that the hayseed stuff is more of an old country music relic than a bluegrass one. I wish I'd had access to this video, it would have made for a lot shorter conversations in many cases. Good job, well done!

[@larrybunkyjackson6030]

Marcel.. Thank you for posting this video. I have watched many of your videos and wondered if you really are a good representation of Bluegrass music, but you are spot on with this one... I have a few videos I want to send to you for your comments. Clearly, some people really need to see this... Very entertaining... Keep up the great work for our music...

[@jgibel]

Anyone who knows nothing about bluegrass could watch this watch this video and instantly sound like an expert

[@mrswimmyboy]

Bluegrass is strongly influenced by the music of Bill Monroe, his stylistic peers and close followers. The less you hear that sound, the more you are listening to "Americana". Nothing wrong with playing hybrid music as long as it is good. [Especially if it accurately references its roots, whatever they may be.] Unfortunately local "Bluegrass jam session" events seem to be Folk, Country, Grateful Dead music etc.

[@aidaneves6524]

this is the most amount of gatekeeping I've ever seen.

[@wxb200]

Internet: "O Brother where art thou?" isn't Bluegrass... Me: I don't care... It was an awesome movie...

[@joereadel]

Word to Doyle Lawson and his great band(s)! The DL&QS catalog is the most reliable place to find perfect bluegrass and gospel harmony singing

[@procarpenter1788]

Doyle Lawson left his fiddle player on the side of the road when he found out he was gay. Literally. Fuck. Doyle. Lawson.

[@sodievox]

My grandfather played bluegrass live on WBLT in Virginia in the 1950s and I think they would technically fail because they had two guitars and no upright, haha! Regardless, this was fun. On the O Brother Where Art Thou point, my grandma loves that movie because it reminds her a bit of her hometown music (or she just likes Clooney - actually probably both). So there's one fringe benefit, grandma's happy so we all win! :)

[@karlschulte9231]

Don't forget the autoharp. Carters. Apalachian dulcimer is old time mountain instrument. Jean Ritchy and Doc Watson set up a music school teaching folk/old time music in NYC. This is the foundation on which bluegrass was built.

[@Caneenj001]

Loved this! Thank you!

[@joshsinclair1796]

Thank god for Marcel. It may be stupid, yes, but it is NOT pointless 😂. I need more

[@thevintagemusiccompany57]

I do too maybe Marcel could make this a weekly feature of his channel.

[@unsurprisingly]

Now that's a lesson 👍🏼❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@seanchesal5676]

My man out here making snobbery fun, and the report card section was very informative. Great job brother

[@dinocore5707]

Do more of these! This was fun to watch

[@Mosey410]

Are these these bands representing themselves as “blue grass” or did Google group them as such . I think that’s important . At the same time I used to care a lot more about stuff like this when I was younger , not so much anymore .

[@travelerru1]

Love this! Couple of thoughts. Capo on banjo and guitar are good, capo on the mandolin is an immediate 10 point deduction! Also, think you for not including "speed" as a defining factor. Many non-bluegrass folks think that all bluegrass has to be lightning fast and it just isn't true. Finally, as both a drummer and mandoliner, drums should never, ever appear in bluegrass as it means that bass and mandolin cannot carry the percussive feel. anyway, great video. J. Evans Pritchard would be proud!

[@LessonsWithMarcel]

Capo on mandolin would have been such a good rule!! Stay tuned for episode two.

[@mikebastiat]

NO DRUMS IN BLUEGRASS. I turn that shit off immediately if I hear it.

[@scottishforrester]

Marcel, I found your video very entertaining and I agree with you completely on your reports. I use my own Bluegrass Report Card on every song I hear that calls itself Bluegrass. I'm glad I'm not the only one who does weird stuff like this! Keep up the fine work! 😊

[@ethancooper1056]

I watched most of this video out of spite. The tone enrages me,something about the constant contradiction of “genres need variation to thrive” and then in the next second “oh you’re playing a guitar that isn’t the size of Georgia? Objectively worth less.”

[@cowboytwang]

It would be fun to go back and do this with “Bluegrass” 40-50 years ago. With Jim & Jesse doing an album of Chuck Berry songs, Flatt & Scruggs doing an album full of Dylan songs with drums, 12-string guitars, and harmonica, Jimmy Martin, Country Gentleman & Seldom Scene doing pop hits, Osborne Brothers with pedal steel, drums, electric bass, electric guitar and banjo & mandolin plugged into amps on stage. Or even go back to 1952 and grade Bill Monroe’s early DECCA recordings with piano, organ, electric guitar, and drums.

[@WarrenPostma]

Purity tests are trash.

[@PremiumKibble]

Defining the genre is not hyper-traditionalist, it's a natural thing to do, and you made it fun. What are your thoughts on the washtub bass playing a traditional baseline? And Guitjo?

[@videosgwp]

I really enjoyed this. Well done.

[@sammarrese-wheeler3308]

LET’S GO WE GOT JOSH AND CARSON IN THE VIDEO! Those guys respect bluegrass!

[@radrex1953]

I feel u missed the point, yes some of the bands did not fit, but a old man sitting on hi porch playing a classical guitar using a pick is iis blugrass if he is playing his heart out and feeling feeling every tone and note coming from his roots, your putting a lable on the box not the substance.

[@peterpopplewell8763]

Claw hammer out but you take electric Bassi. Yikes :)

[@jonahtaylor2396]

I would hate to play in front of this guy…however if we’re in the audience together he’s completely right.

[@jonahtaylor2396]

About 5 times I said “exactly” out loud.

[@charlesgrey8651]

I got to know you trough GuitarPro 7/7.5, ... little did i knew then you are a bluegrass man. Finding that out it was like 'there is a God afterall' experience, ... Marcel, love your channel and all it's content, your brightly and intelligent insides warms my musical inner being. Thank you for being here, ... with us, ... nubes 👌👍💖 you Rock, ... or ... Grass ... whatever 🤘

[@BanjoSamurai]

People are going to look so confused when we play Wagon Wheel and I announce it as a 79% bluegrass song. 😂

[@als4817]

I maintain there was ' influence ' in the video ,, a very brief clip was kept as evidence .. not mentioned, of course ,, I am in NO way suggeting your band would lower itself to those ' visual effects '

[@BanjoSamurai]

@@als4817 I’ve been to enough BG camps and festivals to know that the die hard bluegrass traditionalists has very strict guidelines. I would never call WW a bluegrass song but it will make for some fun crowd interaction.

[@kjguitarman]

A few observations, the scorecard should have been called, “Pure Bluegrass”. And honestly, if all bands scored an A, new albums would be lacking. Influences and creative songwriting including mixing other music genres takes the listener to a whole new level. So, in short, I say toss this snobbery along with the report card and appreciate the wide spectrum of BLUEGRASS!

[@LessonsWithMarcel]

Hell yeah, man! That's why I keep saying in the video that the report card is pointless... at the end I say ditch the report card and instead just ask yourself if you like the music.

[@Sonicguy95]

“I was not swayed by your jean shorts” Marcel--> mega king

[@jeffmay3428]

Enjoyed the video Marcel! How would you rate the addition of Kentucky Slim style tap dancing/buckdancing in this system? Surely it would not be as anathematic to bluegrass as finger snaps or 4 on the floor kickdrum.

[@andishawjfac]

"What is bluegrass" is the same question as "What is a fish" and the answer is, a loosely grouped collection of features that the thing in question MAY have, but it does not have to have all of them to meet the definition. If you say bluegrass has to have a banjo, are you going to remove Blue Moon of Kentucky, given it was recorded with no banjo? If you say it has to have a fiddle, then most of Billy Strings live shows wouldn't count cos he didn't have a fiddle player in the band. If you say it has to have no drums, then you have removed Jimmy Martin, Ricky Skaggs and the Circle records, it's a loosing game. Arguing over the definition of bluegrass is pointless, if the music in question has more features of bluegrass than it doesn't, then it's bluegrass. You made the argument not to bottle up Doc, but then Doyle plays loads of gospel and other tunes that aren't bluegrass, why the different application of that standard?

[@TypingHazard]

The thing is you can take this too far and end up with Elton John playing your jazz festivals and nobody bats an eyelash I have no problem with genre bending music, the only reason I have any familiarity with bluegrass is because of artists like Bela Fleck and Nickle Creek, so I'm not on the side of strict purists, but you do kind of need pedantic no-fun-allowed types to lean in and tell you when new entries to a genre are straying too far, if just once in a while The video even closes with an "it's okay to like things" message, I don't really see a problem here

[@andishawjfac]

@@TypingHazard You kinda missed my point though, " if the music in question has more features of bluegrass than it doesn't, then it's bluegrass." Elton John doesn't have MORE features of Jazz than he DOESN'T have features of Jazz, so my definition would work correctly, without a bunch of gatekeepers dicating everything. Also, who cares if Elton John plays a Jazz festival, if you don't like it, don't go to the festival and be an angry douche at home, let people enjoy things.

[@marcosluna7792]

Yeah sometimes Marcel is lame and often gate keeps because he’s a good player. Still subscribed so I can’t complain but I’ll unsubscribe if he starts to alienate too many

[@TypingHazard]

@@andishawjfac so how do you decide what features a genre has without implicitly gatekeeping? Is it just a smell test, a coin flip, what's your methodology? Does it matter? At least Marcel defines what he's looking for, just counting up the "features of a genre" is a nebulous term without outlining what those features are. In a way it's exactly what Marcel's done here, just without any rigor. And despite all of it he's still not mandating anyone not enjoy anything, so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything

[@andishawjfac]

@@TypingHazard Yes, my comment is similar to the method Marcel used, but without the numbering system, as I'm sure you could tell from the video, that bit was kind of a joke. Music is subjective, so assigning arbritrtary values to features of a genre to be able to analyse if a particular song is part of that genre or not is pretty pointless, I think any reasonable person can judge if a song contains mostly the features of a genre without having to sit and build a spreadsheet, I was more getting at the fact that you can't really define anything by a static list, I recommend Umberto Eco if you aren't sure what I am on about.

[@geoffwales8646]

That was fun. I'm not a big fan of bluegrass, but as a musician I enjoy learning about genres and style.

[@patrickkoenigsfeld1253]

Some Tangential brains were moved today by your guidance of what bluegrass really is. Nice video!

[@trkcop]

Very entertaining thought exercise. Having been raised in a family that played Bluegrass music, this discussion of whether a band is really Bluegrass or not has been going on for as long as I can remember. When I was young; I recall some people could never accept the Seldom Scene as a "true" Bluegrass Band due to their repertoire of songs that included covers of Bob Dylan and James Taylor among others. I would argue, by any objective measure they are undoubtedly squarely in the Bluegrass genre - but this illustrates how trivial this type of discussion can be. By the way, I think you nailed the "Report Card" concept...keep up the good work!!

[@primepreowned1]

The one Big thing you missed was the Vocal Stack. The Osborne Brothers changed the vocal stack with the song(Once More) check it out. The Doyle Lawson song you played was using the same vocal stack. First Tenor, Second Tenor, an High Baritone. Or, soprano, Alto, an Tenor. That sound all started when Red Allen joined the Osborne Brothers Band who could sing In the Alto register. Game changer in Bluegrass.

[@swingmaster02]

This type of harmony stack is most commonly known in the bluegrass community as high lead, baritone and low tenor.

[@hrlarson]

I understand Bill Monroe tried a number of alternative tunings.

[@SelfDevouringSnake]

Where would dave grisman score on this? Or punch brothers but doing like a radiohead cover or something like “familiarity”?

[@TheNormalOutdoors]

Love this video. So many people in the jam music festival scene think they know what bluegrass is. 😂 This is a lot nicer explanation than I would ever give anyone I have disagreed with.

[@martinpascal1039]

thanks for explaining things that might be evidencial for bluegrass player but not for me ! I definitly learn quite some things with this video

[@joshiewhite]

I always thought bluegrass needs a big double base(bass?), mandolin, fiddle and a flstpicking guitar. But then billy strings didn't have a fiddle for a while. I saw a fiddle in one of his more recent sets though.

[@alanlopez4677]

As a self titled music nerd who likes to categorize everything and anything, this video kicked ass. It’s all for fun and with love. I mainly listen to Punk and Metal, with love for rock and roll and anything with guitars, bass, and drums. But if there is any group that is constantly fighting over what is in and what is out it is Punks. 😂😂😂

[@AustinScelzo]

Love these videos Marcel, I've been following you for years and you are the inspiration for my own channel on bluegrass fiddling! I was curious what you'd say about bluegrass fiddle. I've thought a lot about vibrato- I'd say it's all over the map just like bow holds. The greats did use vibrato... Bobby Hicks, Kenny Baker, Byron Berline, Chubby Wise, Benny Martin- one distinction I would make is that it's in general a slower vibrato, and not as wide as in classical music. Also it's not continuous, as is taught in classical music, but more treated as an embellishment.

[@LessonsWithMarcel]

Yeah man, I've said this a couple times in the comments. But this is exactly what I was trying to get at! When classical violinists attempt bluegrass fiddle their vibrato can feel wide and kind of mechanical. Maybe mechanical isn't the word, maybe "over-practiced" or something. I just didn't really articulate my point very well there... it made sense in my head.

[@heavenly2k]

Idk why but this title was hilarious to me, I never knew there would be discourse about fake bluegrass. Spoken like true metalheads, yall

[@msjennifersmusicstudio]

I wish somebody had made this video when I was first learning. Couldn't get anybody to break down bluegrass for me. I don't fit into any genre, so I'll just enjoy being a spectator. Thanks for this video.

[@Timoeltejano]

This grading system is funny. I'm enjoying it so much

[@bentonscrivener]

How do I get one of those t-shirts???

[@G_Demolished]

The bluegrass traditionalist gatekeepers should know that when forced to choose between traditional bluegrass and the Punch Brothers or Nickel Creek, I’m leaving tradition behind. They should make that tent bigger.

[@himatic7]

Fun exercise, and well done. You helped clarify the topic for me. I'm not a bluegrass purist, but... as someone who likes all the clips you played, except for the typically OTT Postmodern Jukebox, I've never thought of any of them as "true" bluegrass. Further, they all have an element of the novelty act about them that can make listening to full albums something of a chore. This echos your comment on genre swapping. Fun, but more like fast food than a hearty aural meal. The exception for me is The Dead South, who, IMHO have transcended their almost-parody origins, though their sound is too eclectic to be called pure (not a criticism). BUT, what about "Bona Fide" bluegrass artists who stray into pop & rock covers? Sierra Hull doing Mad World; Travelin' McCourys doing Pumped up Kicks with Keller Williams; Del McCoury Band - & Friends - covering For What it's Worth; Dave Rawlings Machine (folkies with bluegrass chops) doing Going to California with JPJ on mandolin. How do these rate on the bluegrass scorecard?

[@mjgarratt]

That Tony Rice lick insert was on point 😂

[@robertnewell5057]

Here's Earl doing some guitar fingerpicking with Lester and the Foggy Mountain Boys. Points going, Earl!