Beyond All Reason isn't Supreme Commander... But it's damn close.

[@woarl]

Glad you really enjoyed the game, we really appreciate the honest and direct feedback (the fact it was so positive didn't hurt!). Looking forwards to future content :)

[@Zade_95]

glad to provide it!

[@1989ElLoco]

BAR is amazing. I am all on board now.

[@austinstoner1988]

​​@@Zade_95 I just wish beyond all reason had the unit variety that total annihilation escalation had. Have you played the escalation mod? After playing escalation with its 400 plus units bar is just underwhelming. I still had a lot of fun with it. It was beautiful and strategic as all heck.

[@damgam98]

As a lead (and for the most part, the only) dev of Scavengers and Raptor gamemodes, it did bring big smile on my face to hear the praise about the coop aspect of the game. Especially considering that majority of our online playerbase is PvP based. 😄 Scavengers were the first thing i made and it is a bit flawed design wise, but i still consider it to be relatively fun, though it's not really supported anymore which is why you see some errors (one is even shown on the video :D), but until it's a game breaking bug i don't dive into that old code. Raptors mode is the younger child and definitely the better one in many ways, though less complex. I have vision to recreate Scavengers from scratch both code wise and design wise, but that's an unsure future project that i have not started yet.

[@RiskOfBaer]

I applaud your efforts. That is what ultimately gave me a push to try the game, and I really liked it with my friend. Ultimately, vast majority of players prefer to play single player or co-op content in every single video game. That's why the most popular RTS games ever made always had really high quality content in those areas. Now, BAR is pretty much a niche game for niche audiences, and if that's the way you guys wanted it then I think you are nailing it. But, if there are any kind of future aspirations and hopes the game will become more popular, I think the only viable way forward in that direction would be extending the co-op and single player content your game has to offer. Which is time consuming and costly, I know, but that's just the way it is.

[@IceXuick]

@@RiskOfBaer true! Though it is part of our core aims for BAR to add a ton of solo and co-op gameplay and content! So stay tuned for that!

[@SansSentiments]

I loved Balanced Annihilation and the whole sun engine project since I was a twerp, happy you guys mad BAR, since I could not get any friends to play the hinkey dinkey trailerparky Balanced Annihilation (once ingame it was fine, but till there.. ) I mean, I have not seen deformable environment in an RTS since I think read alert 2 and that is such a great feature to have.

[@Zade_95]

what a legend yeah man, the pve'rs exist out there! keep up the awesome work

[@3DzEXPLOSION]

Please keep co op going. Friends and I love the modes

[@seandowney2338]

I'd love a history of the TA family tree. I first learned of the series through PA, and it would be interesting to learn of the roots of that game and now BAR, and why PA never seemed to get off the ground.

[@silversolver7809]

Seconded! TA was my next fav RTS after C&C and RA, and SupCom FA next after that.

[@kurlykrenins]

thats a shame, starting with PA.. screw that game and those devs.. SCUM

[@austinstoner1988]

​@@silversolver7809starcraft was a good one too! I played a ton on command and conquer, total annihilation, and starcraft. Imo total annihilation is the best. Have you tried total annihilation escalation mod? It adds so much to an already amazing game. Like 400 plus units, strategic zoon, etc etc. Its free and easy to download and install!

[@shaunvanhuyssteen7966]

This game actually looks great! I am gonna keep an eye on it. I am a huge fan of SupCom and Total Anihilation and happy to see that more games in the same genre is coming out! We need more games like this.

[@Zade_95]

Agreed it's awesome that we've got this, Sanctuary, of course FAF, and others going strong. Give it a try!

[@manumaster1990]

an eye on it? go play it whit us its free!!

[@frydac]

been playing supcom FAF for a few years, but since a few months totally consumed by BAR. Best to watch some streams/vods to learn quickly imho, play some singleplayer scenarios, also regular lobbies with coop vs AI give low stress environment for learning the basics and getting some experience before jumping into pvp. ATM there are many newer players, I feel like I'm already relatively better in comparison to FAF :) Anyway, its 100% free (and open source, and supports linux natively (as a dev myself I really appreciate this)), just download and join in..

[@UnknownSquid]

It's out already and free. Also extremely playable. Despite the "Alpha" tag it puts the majority of full releases to shame. Unless you're just already super busy right now, I can easily recommend just giving it a go. (Also plenty of gameplay videos on KZbin if you're more inclined to spectating a bit first.)

[@Jinxer128]

Have you gotten it yet?

[@SprikSprak]

great review! Three things that I'd callout that you didn't cover are: a) the great little attention to detail with unit animations, including damage states, b) they have really good non cheating AI that will give you a challenge and c) the mouse gesture formations and attack moves - seriously this one should just be in every rts, it's so intuitive. Thanks for covering this - it's nice to see it getting acknowledged for the awesome it is.

[@Zade_95]

Ah yes I wish I'd mentioned the mouse formations. I REALLY love that feature. And great points about the other two, I'll mention them next time :)

[@IceXuick]

@@Zade_95 that would be awesome!

[@1989ElLoco]

Mouse formations are in PA as well

[@RealRanton]

If u don't mind covering old games and can still get your hands on them somehow I'd love to hear your thoughts on KKND2 Crossfire and Populous: The beginning which still has an active online community

[@Zade_95]

I've never even HEARD of the first one, but it looks dope. Populous is one I'd like to cover one day for sure. On the list!

[@saffral]

Easy to get your hands on them, they're both for sale on GOG to this day.

[@RealRanton]

@@Zade_95 thanks bro 🫡

[@crispydingman]

Loved me some KKND2 back in the day! Awesome straightforward RTS

[@AUS-NewbiTLorD]

Oh man I use to absolutely love KKND. That was an Australian developed game that went under the radar. Use to play multiplayer against my brother on Ps1 all the time.

[@stormlordeternal7663]

I swear every TA/SupCom like game MUST include a Seton's Clutch. It's like the Moonlight Greatsword for Souls.

[@1989ElLoco]

Yep it needs to be there!

[@Zade_95]

yes it is a legal requirement

[@janosd4nuke]

And the legend bleeds even outside of the bloodline. I've found Seton's Clutch in Mental Omega too

[@chronopolize_jp]

take my money!! after playing a number of other rts, i can't believe how epic/strategic/accessible they made BAR

[@ChrisosIDK]

Bar is AMAZING

[@Empyrrean]

This game has been on my radar for a few months. That being said, you had me at "wave defense style horde modes". As a TA/SupCom enjoyer, my mind has now been made up.

[@Zade_95]

Have fun! The horde mode is incredibly enjoyable. Just expect to lose. It's REALLY hard

[@Empyrrean]

I'm no masochist, but I'm up for the challenge. 😈

[@frydac]

There are many ways to customize and make it easier or harder if you want to, things like starting resources, resource multiplyer, experimental extra units, time before waves start hitting, max tech level AI, .. and bunch more

[@brianb2308]

Those modes are definitely a lot easier on smaller maps, but regardless, on normal mode it's pretty easy; the higher difficulties start getting a bit ridiculous.

[@dantauche7917]

I loved TA when I was young, had no idea some of these games existed, they look amazing! I can't wait to try out BAR!

[@MrJay_White]

bar is great, zero-k is cheese flavour substitute.

[@mmcb2910]

Sad to hear the TA video is so far away but I'd love to see an ambitious overview of the game, it's development, and it's many successors. Looking forward to it. After BAR comes to steam I'll definitely give it a shot.

[@Zade_95]

It was supposed to be this year but scheduling caused it to be delayed. Don't worry, it'll be worth it!

[@wabuk97]

@@Zade_95 all good things are worth waiting for and your videos are a prime example, your content is a highlight of the week that never disapoints

[@yocomehelp]

Man, never knew this exited, but the Total Annihilation style models on all the units had me really exited :D nostalgia on high level here.

[@R17inator]

I remember playing the survival mode of this game, but vs the alien raptors instead of the scavengers. I was playing solo, so it was even rougher, but I found out that ironically I had to be the attacker first in order to win, building up a force of tanks and etc. to hunt and destroy enemy spawners before the first wave and between each subsequent wave to weaken the next force they throw at me.

[@marekkos3513]

The problem with Bar , Zero-K,Planetary Annihilations and Even Supreme Commander 2 is that the units look more like a toys , and the world building is very bad.When you play Total annihilations , and Supreme Commander 1 , you know that every unit look badass , and so good animated, and the world building is also very good and interesting.When I see the big spider robot from Supreme Commander 1 , I know its going to make a lot of damage.

[@marcoscaetano3069]

Is true, this is bad

[@cl3arsky745]

also i miss energy shields (the big ones like in supcom 1)

[@MsModeller]

I grew up playing TA and TAK. Beyond All Reason is the more true to form succesor and I adore it. I didn't love Zero K - but BAR just feels perfect. Having the horde modes of Raptor and Scanavger...and the extra Legion faction. I just adore it.

[@IceXuick]

Thank you for this awesome preview and recommendation! ❤

[@Zade_95]

my pleasure!

[@adas3497]

been on BAR for a couple years now, but the game is still as good as back then

[@manumaster1990]

Beyond All Reason is amazing man glad you picked up on it!!!

[@IceXuick]

Thank you!

[@thomaskositzki9424]

BAR is just cool. 🥰 Being a TA Fan for more than 20 years, it is the true remake of TA in my view, capturing the intense down-to-the-ground action of the original.

[@lolsteamroller]

Here's the more complete Family Tree about BAR/Zero-K parts Total Annihilation (TA) -> UberHack -> Absolute Annihilation -> Balanced Annihilation formed the foundational lineage of TA-inspired games. Balanced Annihilation then split up. The first path led to Beyond All Reason (BAR) directly, initially named Balanced Annihilation Remodeled, a game that retained a closer fidelity to TA's roots. The second fork from Balanced Annihilation gave birth to Complete Annihilation, which further evolved into Zero-K.

[@SurnameName]

this family tree gets even more complicated to explain if you talk about the history of recoil engine and how it ties into bar's lineage. also the fact that balanced annihilation is still going, though just barely

[@Kaaxe]

Thanks for talking a bit about Zero-K. A deeper dive into the history of Total Annihilation would be fun to watch

[@jameso6845]

Hells yes to the TA video!

[@armed_but_blind2768]

This is all that glitters

[@1989ElLoco]

I see what you did there

[@davet9820]

It's crazy how good SupCom still looks after all these years. Too bad it goes into slow motion no matter what rig you have, once you fill up the whole map with units

[@Zade_95]

yeah i know right, still looks amazing

[@1989ElLoco]

In FAF there have been some optimizations. 8 vs 8 is possible, if internet is fast enough for everyone.

[@MatthewOstergren]

@@1989ElLoco I remember a big part of the problem for SupCom being that it only ever took advantage of a single CPU core. Has FAF managed to fix that?

[@1989ElLoco]

@@MatthewOstergren not afaik, it's in a part that's in the engine. But it mostly becomes a problem when playing against AI. PvP is no problem.

[@MrkBO8]

BAR has the best controls I have used on a RTS, the control itself makes it fun to play

[@JasonSyversen]

It’s a great game! I remember playing Total Annihilation back in the day and it’s a worthy successor and improvement on the original game.

[@1989ElLoco]

Thanks for the video Zade

[@Zade_95]

:)

[@SylockTheDefiled]

Oh yeah you finally did the review on it!

[@cburger4life144]

PLEASE bring on some Total Annihilation content! Such a great game that doesn’t get talked about nearly enough. Cavedog was an early adopter of using the internet to stay in touch with their community. On top of discussions, they also would upload new units for the game that you could download. They even had this thing where you could submit your own unit ideas and the community would vote on them for the possibility of the popular ones getting added to the game!

[@SSGLGamesVlogs]

I only currently play Total Annihilation (TA) with fixes and extra units, vs enhanced AI. I couldn't get into the swing of watching people play the Supreme Commander games and Planetary Annihilation. Didn't knew about Zero. But seeing people play BAR fitted right in. The developers made a number of decisions that produced in my mind, the modernized TA experience I was looking for. Regarding mods that utilize the original TA look, I understand TA: Escalation is the best. But that one has such an overwhelming emphasis on super units, that I believe it is better suited for large team battles. The next one would be TA: Mayhem, which appears to be more even regarding additions to the Tech Levels.

[@Matrix2Strata017]

except super units in escalation are very rare, pvp. The basis is expand quickly and spam the tech 1s to eventually zerg out the opposition. The lower techs were made to be very spammy, and even viable despite tech 3s existing, because they are dirt cheap and fast to build. High tech doesn't scale very good, and most games aren't going to last that long unless both sides purposely turtle and tech up. Techs 3s are super vulnerable to Air spam, which most have weak or no AA, and simply low tech spam, and so would still require powerful escort.

[@Dropem7777]

Looks like a cool game. I love supcom forged alliance a ton. I feel like rts need to use the stream economy more. My only concern is how they treat a commander unit. I personally like how supcom made it a strong early game unit that can upgrade to assist in engineering of higher tier units or become a monster that puts fear in late game units.

[@alexpayne472]

It's funny how after all this years Supreme Commander is still the best RTS.

[@Kioget]

Based on vibes, my own vibes

[@IceXuick]

Maybe you could try BAR just to make sure... 😊

[@Brontolover]

It's not funny, it's sad

[@1989ElLoco]

I agree. SupCom is still the best game ever created imo. I am looking forward to the new rts's. Tried BAR, but couldn't really get into it yet. Even though I am a 1500 on FaF. Kept crashing my eco. Will give it a new try in the future.

[@frydac]

It's quite different from FAF, found it frustrating at first, but now I enjoy it more. There are a number of UI differences that I now really miss when playing FAF. It took ke also like 3x trying out and dropping it again, but since a few moths I'm almost only playing BAR

[@pierpiero]

Looking forward to the TA retrospective

[@Foojaleeckalikeelamaka]

Don't forget Rusted Warfare for your family tree, it's a mobile/tablet spin off of Total Annihilation. It's got no loot boxes and no microtransactions of any sort.

[@SurnameName]

props for doing your research on the history of beyond-all reason and BAR. there's a lot of misinformation on youtube about the (admittedly very complicated) history of spring engine games such as zero-k and BAR (well, recoil engine, but that's yet another complicating factor i won't get into). sure, you simplify things a fair bit, but even in that specific branch of the total annihilation family tree there's already enough material to make a standalone video about, so it's understandable. and at least you're aware of the history and don't get things completely wrong or just make them up like too many people making videos on the subject

[@shperax]

Sup Com 2 is my fav among these, mostly just due to that I love the tech point/tree system. And I also love that all your tech and engineers don't become obsolete when you unlocked higher tier tech. When you unlock a higher tier, all your existing stuff becomes that tier. I find having to constantly re-make engineers and tech and units that become old to be a major flaw in other RTS games (including BAR)

[@volodymyr_budii]

Thats really strange, since engineers out of all is the stuff that ages the least, both in supcom and BAR - t1 enigneers are always useful to sacrifice for reclaiming or if you have to use lower tier factories to build up engineers to asist a higher tier factory, since it is too busy with building other units and can not be wasting time on enigneers. In supcom they are even less useless, since T2 engineers can not build T1 buildings, and for example vehicle t2 bot can not go on water like T1 hover engineer or t1 amphibious engineer.

[@Mr_D_The_1st]

the moment i saw the little robots i was sold

[@Zade_95]

based

[@pieman2906]

Planetary Annihilation is criminally underrated Also, thanks to Legion mod, it functionally has 2 factions

[@Zade_95]

yeah Legions massively improves PA imo

[@1989ElLoco]

Yea PA is amazing. But too few players now. Also the (new) devs seem to have quited.

[@GamerM1235]

I love that I have played, or am actively following all of these games. . . . Nothing beats these 'Epic' scale RTS games.

[@Hunter_6601]

I wish these type of games features proper infantry, kinda hard to get invested in a mech death for me personally

[@albireo8166]

YES to the Total Annihilation Familly video

[@Armis71]

My favorite was the original TA. Then Forge Alliance. Supcom 2, didn't delve into it so much as I gave my gaming rig to my son. Now BAR, plays a LOT like TA. It's great! My new modern TA game.

[@minibeast21]

As a massive fan of original TA, ill definitely get this once they start developing a single player story campaign & start developing lore & setting of this promisimg sci-fi setting

[@Matrix2Strata017]

It also suffers from a poor AI as well just like SC. Using Seton's Clutch map as example, you won't see ships bombarding from the shores, hovers, maybe few at best, even though water would be an excellent way to add firepower and suppress the land so ground units can push in easier. Akin to SC, the AI isn't likely to build Air and carry out random and deadly air raids. Wouldn't take much to sneak in a surgical strike to cripple your bases flying from the ocean. Whereas in OTA, though random and wonky, you may end up getting bloodied by air raids as air is quite powerful. Sea units are also very powerful. No dis on BAR, SC, or Spring, I enjoyed the time I did and they are good for what they are, but I am always finding myself wanting OTA.

[@PtaQ_Q]

Actually BARbarianAI does all that things, have you tired it? Other ones are more rudimentary.

[@AntonSlavik111]

Nice to hear a first time player thoughts.

[@Zade_95]

Glad you found value in it, thought it might be interesting!

[@IceXuick]

@@Zade_95 it was super interesting and the new player experience (NPE) is something that's high up in our todolist. We know we can improve this a lot, though it was really nice to see it was pretty (relatively) easy for your friend to get into the game. For some time we've been working on a lot of preparations to greatly improve the NPE. We hope to get that into the game soon ™

[@donaldducklas4155]

Great rts! Enjoying getting into it now.

[@empireofitalypsstimfromano5025]

Counterpoint To The Scale: We Are Only In Alpha And We Can Already Have A 25 V 25 With A Huge Map. By Full Release There Will Probably Be Even More Huge Maps And At Least 16 V 16 Will Be An Official Mode.

[@OverlordZephyros]

I love these kinds of games but something that supreme commander does well its telling a story. For me thats the most important part, I mean why try to beat a game when theres nothing rewarding besides a "Good job" at the end

[@anab0lic]

Getting good, overcoming adversity, achieving mastering, crushing the competition, that's the rewarding part of any game.... Story is the least rewarding part of this hobby.

[@INFILTR8US]

@@anab0lic This isn't the flex you think it is. Story is the most rewarding part of any artistic medium. And a truly good game can tell it through gameplay. The same way a classical painting expresses a story through the gestures of the subjects, the setting, the composition and color tone, etc. The same way a good actor can convey a wide range of emotions through perfect stillness. (Not to compare games to art, because they aren't, but you get the picture.) That's why I can't watch pornography-- sex without context is just perverse voyeurism. But hey, you do you kiddo.

[@ninochaosdrache3189]

I agree. Skirmish and nice and all, but eventually, I want an overarching narrative and a proper context about what I do and why I do it.

[@anab0lic]

​@@INFILTR8US lol 'artistic medium'.. such a cringe term to describe gaming.. The art is the icing on the cake of a game... its not the actual cake... the cake, is what lies beneath that, the game mechanics, the systems, the problems that the game presents for the player to overcome given the tools provided. Gaming at its core, is about problem solving, and the best games are the ones that ask the most of the player, to solve those problems in unique and interesting ways. People who play games for the story tend to be skilless, braindead idiots, incapable of actually overcoming the challenge that a well designed good game presents... sounds like you fall into this category 'kiddo.' The story-fication of video games, trying to turn them into interactive movies, where there is more downtime/ passivity, thus reducing player engagement, is THE WORST thing that ever happened to gaming. Most of the best games have absolutely zero story, sometimes with just enough theme to fan the flames of your imagination... again asking more of the player. I like a good story as much as anyone, but rarely is anything to be found beyond mediocrity in this domain... if you think otherwise you clearly haven't read the best books or watch the best films.... playing games for the story, is truly one of the most inefficient uses of your valuable time here on earth.

[@WikiHL]

​@@anab0licAge of Mythology is so beloved due to the story, despite not having the most polished and comfortable gameplay

[@SirArtanis7]

Now I need to make time to play, it looks worth it though!

[@Xeonzs]

I was a bit skeptical about the art style, and it being a mix of macro micro more akin to TA mixxed with starcraft playstyle, while I prefer the slower pace of supreme commander. However after giving it a try a month or 2 ago I've been playing it regularly since then with some friends and tried a few public pve lobbies, really enjoying it, and it's free, I even sent Chris Taylor a message on linkedin a few weeks back, thanking him for his impact on the genre and that as a result we get to enjoy a game like BAR today for free.

[@1989ElLoco]

Chris Taylor. The man, the legend. I wish he would do it one more time before he retires. One more mega project such as TA or SupCom.

[@Xeonzs]

@@1989ElLoco I know right, one more epic project.

[@ancientgamer3645]

When you just keep going back to play games like Total Annihilation, Warzone, and C&C. What does it mean? You have great taste just like Zade. Happy gaming!👍👍

[@jonathanj.3695]

BAR isn't Supreme Commander. It's Total Annihilation on crack.

[@jacksheldon8566]

The only issue I had is the super long first game of the day loading that often kick me out of the game so I have to rejoin.

[@amirkhaj2065]

that end line was funny

[@Zade_95]

lttstore.com

[@darkranger116]

I love the Platypus bot. Its so cute, lol

[@egoalter1276]

Rusted Warfare also deserves an honorable mention.

[@edelzocker8169]

True...

[@nihilistchimerax]

0:52 am I the only one that sees Seton's clutch?

[@Zade_95]

nope! every TA/SC likes MUST have seaton's clutch

[@igncom1]

BAR and Zero-K are great games with fantastic AI, terrain that matters, physics based projectiles and a grand scale with huge armies of mechs up to towering titans that dominate the battlefields...... That I simply cannot stand to keep playing. I think it was the first time I watched a Bot climb up a cliff face, dodging incoming shells, shredding defences, and running around taking own my entire economy before fading into the fog of war that I knew I'd never play another game. And I've long since grown to dislike an end game where you don't build armies any more, just one giant mech that invalidates the concept of armies. With BAR not having a campaign at all, and Zero K having..... well I guess a Campaign that I just didn't get along with probably didn't help. I think I need that compelling hook of a setting these days to keep me interested. I simply don't care about multiplayer, it's never been my thing. I think I just can't be bothered to play anything more complex then a C&C game any more. Just an ageing old RTS player who doesn't want to work hard to play a game.

[@grigmax]

bar is such good game i can tell, i moved out from ta:esc and ta to bar and i can say it was worth it

[@thygrrr]

Learning to balance your flow economy feels EXACTLY like learning to ride a bike. 🚴 And once you get the basics, you can do wheelies, stoppies, and you will never want to go back to a discrete/pay-up-front eco system. 💱

[@Zade_95]

Yo thanks for the support

[@glados4765]

Total Annihilation was my favorite rts of all time. Cavedog Entertainment rip

[@kevinh3238]

Is there going to be a campaign? co op too maybe?

[@PtaQ_Q]

yes and yes :)

[@kevinh3238]

@@PtaQ_Q most epic. Do we have an eta?

[@TheHopelessThrumbo]

The only concern I have with BAR is, it started to refuse to run with 8GB of memory, leaving me on ice til I get a long overdue upgrade... but it's more than worth the effort.

[@Synapse203]

Oh that's sad.. I was really getting hyped

[@damgam98]

8GB should still be playable if you close down every RAM eating thing in the background. By no means it should crash straight away on launch. But yes we're leaning towards calling 12 or 16GB RAM a minimum system requirement for comfortable play.

[@blackburn1489]

Ashes of the Singularity is the part of that tree, too?

[@Armis71]

You don't like PVP in RTS? Lol, I thought that's what it's all about. Playing against other people. I'm really impressed with BAR, it has a ranking system. You can easily spectate any game that's being played. All games played by other people can be watched on a replay list. There's a friends list. For a game that is free, and not to mention the awesome gameplay, this is more than I actually expected. Supreme Commander (FAF was my favorite) still is a great game, but BAR just brings me back to the best RTS game every created which was the original TA, but with a modern take.

[@volodymyr_budii]

Well, not really. Majority of RTS player base almost always were chill players, who just relax against easy AI or play through ineteresting campaigns. Competitive gameplay is only a small part of RTS games - even in Starcraft 2 more players play custom game mods and not 1v1 ladder, and that is excluding all the people who played through campaign and went on.

[@bennyx1281]

Ok just installed the game, I must say the sound of the game sounds great.

[@FiendishlyDelightedSefto]

I'm a massive command and conquer fan and Westwood/Petroglyph fan in general. These look good tho

[@_Azurael_]

BAR is just not enough for me. I can't look at it and not compare it to Supreme Commander... And SC is just better in my opinion.

[@edelzocker8169]

BAR is a open source game developed by primarly hobby coders...

[@marcoscaetano3069]

I dont like that units design and animations in bar

[@janosd4nuke]

Planetary Annihilation is the golddigger Karen who married into the family XD

[@ZinfandelRed1914]

Forged Alliance Forever, ftw! 👍

[@KlausWulfenbach]

I keep hearing the term "Action RTS" but every time I hear it, it seems to mean something different. So Zade, what is your definition of "Action RTS" and when distinguishes it from just "RTS" or "top-down action game"?

[@Zade_95]

i would call an 'action rts' an rts that doesn't offer diplomatic options (or VERY minimal) or have any other primary gameplay options other than funding the war machine, and that it generally gets into the action very quickly admittedly it's a vague term and covers a lot of things a few games i'd call 'action rts's' - age of empires - command and conquer - bar, supcom, etc some games i wouldn't call action rts's - sins of a solar empire - older strongholds - total war games (sort of) now that you've made me think about i think the term kinda sucks and i need to differentiate more :P

[@RiskOfBaer]

Isn't that just a classic RTS though? Or "Old School RTS"? Or just RTS? I don't believe things like diplomatic options were ever a part of the genre descriptor in any way, nor am I familiar with the term "action RTS". I think the first two terms are the most popular and make the most sense. Whenever I hear somebody say "old school" or "classic" RTS, I immediately think to games like TA, Red Alert, AOE, and I am 100% confident that's exactly what the author meant. And it sounds to me that's exactly what you're trying to describe when you use this new term "Action RTS". I don't think we need it though.

[@KlausWulfenbach]

@@Zade_95 Interesting. Every single game with the Action RTS tag on Steam seems to have a different reason for why it has that tag. Check it out to see a few dozen more completely different definitions of what the term means. BTW, I don't know about original AoE1, but AoEDE definitely has diplomacy. It's right there in the upper right hand corner of the HUD.

[@attilio5719]

I love Supreme Commander:FA LOUD & Forever. They reworked game on Windows - Linux!

[@CommanderBohn]

Sooooo...where does Ashes of Singularity stand in the family tree?

[@jacksheldon8566]

I forgot this one existed.

[@CommanderBohn]

@@jacksheldon8566 Underrated game. Got fixed after a lot of patches.

[@Quillyik]

I just wish they'd add anti missile defense like cwis

[@darknetworld]

It not easy to balance the factions. If you add more faction they longer the dev team to debug damage and health.

[@minidude112]

I can attest: This game is an ABSOLUTE banger. Regards boomer mafia (probably played 80% of all RTS's last 20yrs)

[@empireofitalypsstimfromano5025]

I Legit Never Heard Of Zero K, It Looks Fun, It's Such A Shame It Never Got Any Of The Spotlight

[@SingletonD]

So where does Ashes of the Singularity fall on this family tree?

[@Zade_95]

somewhere far in the corner lol

[@SingletonD]

LOL the weird 3rd cousin in the family that no one wants to talk about.@@Zade_95

[@MatthewOstergren]

The gameplay videos of it all make me feel sad because it looks like all the units just hover or something and there are no obvious naval, air and ground units to provide that much needed variety.

[@AbsurdShark]

If you think the user interface of BAR is worse than Supreme Commander, you are... well you are right, but i would be interested in what you think of the release date version of SupCom's ui. If you never seen it, its amazing how much it changed since release. You can see it in the original Supreme Commander IGN review video, for example.

[@lethalbaconbacon2079]

Are we forgetting supreme commander forged alliance

[@MrJay_White]

zero-k was pure cheese. the formations/guard rings where a great concept, but the fact the game was so open to micro-cheese made it mare star-craft real time stressagist than anything, and made the formation stuff completly pointless.

[@anteep4900]

BAR plays so much better than Sup Com. Sup Com's engine was always shit, and you can even see it in this video where stuttering is painfully evident whenever gameplay footage of Sup Com is shown. BAR, Zero-k, any Spring engine games feel like they're properly built for an RTS.

[@Mytrix0]

Shouldn't Forged Alliance be there between SupCom 1 and 2?

[@Zade_95]

i consider SC/FA the same game, but yes you're right

[@Mytrix0]

@@Zade_95 Fair enough. I mention it because of the impact FA had on the series, as it was arguably the most popular and had the best multiplayer experience.

[@TGHoly]

BAR is awesome at first I didn't expect much (I'm not even big fan of TA or Supcom gameplay but more prefer C&c or blizzard RTS) and see it just another indie Supcom clone but it turn out I enjoy the game a lot more than Supcom and maybe this could be the most fun RTS I've play in decade it's feel like C&c with TA economy and a lot of combat micro potential that didn't force me to spend hour to gather huge armies just to throw them away at enemies base with out anything in return instead BAR allow me to assault enemies with just 4 tank and they're beefy enough for some micro to keep them alive which give me feel more relate to those units than faceless mob in Supcom. And when talk about Micro the game maybe BAR have the most advance control mechanic in any RTS game at this point with move-line-drag mechanic that allow me to draw formation for my armies by simply drawing their movement (no hotkey require) and it's feel great! I can change my line of tank to circle enemies with only one click. And despite the game have only 2 factions but some how I never get bore of them since each one have ton of units to pick from for different situation and even the map itself simply change start location enough to give me difference experience on how to play the game on that match since the map is so huge each area might have unique feature that effect to my game plan. Graphic of the game while it's not the best in industry but it feel very satisfy the map look great and very detail when ever I zoom in or zoom out it texture still look very crisp, Units and map graphic also have harmonize together like they're stand on an actual place unlike Supcom. (which look like a bunch of 3D model run around on flat terrain with blur texture and even look more horrible when zoom out.). If anything I don't like about the game is the game terrible main menu that both terrible to look and chunky to use while any click give no responsive feeling at all which might enough to drive many new comer away. But after play this game make me worries that I might unable to have fun with other RTS ever again and make me wonder why this game not become main steam already. XD

[@Argonwolfproject]

BAR is like SupCom that doesn't hate its players.

[@volodymyr_budii]

Huh? How exactly?

[@Marqui91]

Bizarre uncle!! Zero stars!

[@michaelmirecki3114]

You know.. I just reinstalled SupCom again to try it. I did not long ago but I wanted to confirm my thoughts; 1. Supreme commander is old. It may not initially sound like it, but it is. Comparing the interface, the graphics and the general engine to BAR it's chalk and cheese. 2. I'm not sure what youu mean about the playability of the game, but little things like SupCom not having a quick select button for idle units is a big downgrade from BAR. 3. Limitations on building placement are massive in SupCom. 4. Only 1 type of builder in SupCom, verse like 5 in BAR. I could go on and on. Long story short, I'll be uninstalling SupCom again after a single game. Yes, BAR has a long way to go, ie. a single player campaign would be incredible. But I think trying to do a comparison to older games is just unfair on those older games!

[@1989ElLoco]

Vote this comment up, if you think the Big Bertha cannons need a similar strong sound as in Total Annihilation.

[@shperax]

I love BAR but, you shouldn't have to think so much about units getting stuck in your base building. It WILL happen and it WILL be annoying. Maybe just force more ground clearance to place objects.

[@Arkham_UK]

Word of the day 'thwump"

[@BeeWaifu]

I mean, it doesn't. My reason to live is denied me, but I appreciate the sentiment.

[@stever089]

Your a cool kiwi me zade much love !

[@pithikoulis]

Downloaded it on Ubuntu. Doesn't start. Oh well.

[@Zade_95]

😥😥

[@CMDR_Saber84]

admittedly modern game engines have made producing games with smaller teams much easier -> see spacebourne 2

[@RiskOfBaer]

There is a lot to be said about how all the current big gaming corporations are extremely bloated and inefficient, also they focus on profits more than on delivering quality product. A small, dedicated and passionate dev team can operate way more efficiently and faster, and with access to many great tools that make game dev more convenient, such as those extensive game engines you've mentioned, they are able nowadays with enough time and effort to exceed whatever the mainstream gaming corporations are able to produce.

[@dudeguybro]

There will always be comments reiterating, "Why doesn't this game have a bigger community? What about Ashes of Singularity?" The reason those games aren't popular is because: 1. They're not competitive in multiplayer. 2. There are two races (simply just not enough). 3. AoS campaign is horrendously bad along with items 1 and 2. Gates of Hell suffers from similar issues minus the campaign as the campaigns are the reason you play Gates of Hell. The game is not balanced for multiplayer; it's based on realism.

[@RiskOfBaer]

The reason is even simpler: RTS games are not a popular genre anymore. And the only people who play them nowadays are already tied in their existing, preferred games. BAR is directly competing for people's time with the great classics, it's a fight you are not going to win. The fact BAR actually managed to carve out a niche but very dedicated playerbase is a testament to how great the game is even now. Whoever tries to make a classic RTS game nowadays will be met with the same fate. Even sequels to great classics like AOE are not faring nearly as well as most other video games.

[@Matrix2Strata017]

@@RiskOfBaer that's more accurate. While I have also played BAR, and Spring long time ago, I still prefer the old TA. BAR may have a more "modern" engine, but TA has a special touch to it that the spring engine simply can't capture. It could be the simplicity and archaic UI, or the sounds units makes from moving, under attack, or just being clicked on, or the detailed explosion arts, or its unique top-down view, or the tilesets for the maps, etc., TA is in it's own class, though its spiritual successor can come close.

[@artemonikon]

But BAR is just Zero-K but without terraforming (but with fancy graphics... ye..)

[@seroskal9354]

That's right. BAR is better than Supreme Commander. By a huge margin.

[@TheAutistocrat]

You clearly don't have much experience with Total Annihilation because those two factions, with slight name changes, are right out of that came, with some new units, many of them however established before through TA modding scene.

[@TheAutistocrat]

Apparently, there's been recent change in unit names, they used to be the same as in TA. But models still make them recognizable.

[@MeTechmind]

Yeah, it was "balanced annihilation reskinned/remodeled" and later changed names for copyright reasons (and same for units).

[@Zade_95]

yeah did you gather that when I said I only had experience in Supreme Commander? :P

[@BlueTemplar15]

Yeah, through Uberhack and Absolute Annihilation, still directly TA mods, but ran directly on the 3D Spring engine (that started as a way to replay TA match demos in 3D) : also check out the wiki entry for Cavedog's Boneyards. And shortly after that came out Balanced Annihilation, which was Absolute Annihilation but rebalanced specifically for Spring. But it was far from the only Spring game/mod, there are dozens of them, a minority even not based on TA (though still usually having the same features like a streaming economy) : those based on WH40k, WW2, Gundam ; standalone games like Kernel Panic or P.U.R.E., also notably Evolution RTS, which was the first Spring game to be released on Steam (the dev is now making Splinter Faction). SupCom1 fans might be interested in NOTA, as it tried to go for that bigger scale gameplay. You can run all of these through one of the Spring(-Recoil) lobbies (BAR and especially Zero-K are the outliers here, as they don't recommend to use them), these days Skyloby is often recommended as more modern than the official Spring lobby - but of course for the more obscure ones you might want to bring your own players ;) Also, Zade, I thought you had played Zero-K - I'm not sure how did you forget that it has significantly more varied units than SupCom, BAR, and especially PA ?!? It has adopted the wilder modded TA units, and somewhat incredibly, even managed to balance them into 11(+2) factories, so it would be more fair (though somewhat unfair for the other games) to say that Zero-K has 11 factions ! (Including factories like Jumpbots, Spiders, Shieldbots, a cloaked and stealthed flying engineer...)

[@PurplDrank]

what does forked mean? in this sense?

[@Zade_95]

in a software sense, like split off into it's own thing

[@kirill2525]

Make a vid about Legion

[@phlex6491]

Played BAR and Zero-k. BAR is alot more competetive, while Zero-k allows for goofy strats. Both are missing huge units in my opinion.