TF2: Negation Mechanics

[@ZestyJesus]

This video is outdated--watch my more recent video on the short circuit: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jpCpiGeXrbNqrrM

[@Ofxzh]

Hey Zesty, I used to have a combo with the old short circuit. I would use the panic attack and short circuit to create a barrier that would get rid of projectiles and track down spies while I could calculate what I could do. It was just fun rushing at enemies with a “underpowered” weapon and wrecking the enemies anus. Then blue moon hit and the combo was ruined.

[@tev5040]

No

[@rokaq5163]

This comment has only 32 likes despite being from the maker of the video. Makes one wonder.

[@rpgnerd7610]

Nah.

[@zeevdrifter2707]

gonna be honest, negation and CC are two very different things and problematic for two very different reasons.

[@keithkania3810]

If you complain about the hoovy gloves forcing you to taunt during Uber it’s you’re own damn fault you let an absolute unit sneak behind you

[@bimeshii]

another thing: jumping prevents them from forcing you to taunt.

[@FlickazSwag]

You can still force people to laugh with random crits and kritzkriegs

[@FlickazSwag]

@@bimeshii You can't jump much when you're an ubered heavy

[@bimeshii]

@@FlickazSwag i feel like that goes back to the original post. plus, most holiday punch users will go for the medic first kritzkrieg will make it do no damage, so just spam jump

[@firetarrasque4667]

@@FlickazSwag If a heavy walks up to you and punches you while you're ubered what the fuck are you doing

[@rocketpg_9532]

Something I didn't know about the short circuit is that you can actually airblast the alt-fire orb.

[@0bashie]

air > pure fucking energy orbs

[@engineeringsentry6625]

Just revert the orb back to a electric wave

[@mauriciohablutzel]

@ no fucking way

[@SanderTheCockatoo]

No fucking way

[@legalam]

I did that by accident once

[@EventideEcho]

"THE SIZE OF THE FLARE IS THE SIZE OF A FORD F150" *Misses both flares* As much as I hate the scorch shot, even when playing pyro, that was really not the best example.

[@elizapipemaster4200]

He was using the regular Flare Gun tho, not Scorch Shot. Pretty sure Scorch Shot has a bigger and faster projectile, on top of everything else it does.

[@TrouserSnivy]

@@elizapipemaster4200 You're wrong, they both have the same speed and projectile. They are both also among the fastest projectiles in the game with an extremely forgiving hitbox and arc that makes longer range target-leading more forgiving as well.

[@Shpoovy]

@@TrouserSnivy scorch shot has a large blast radius on impact that the regular flare gun doesn't have if you miss a normal flare by a goddamn subpixel you're fucked

[@TrouserSnivy]

@Basement Bohab what? You thought *what* was the detonator?Everything I said applies to all three flare guns

[@TunbosunOyenuga]

@@TrouserSnivy Yea all flares guns are the same size. It only the Denotater that has a different flare model and the Manmelter that has more speed. The misconception of the Scorch Shot size comes from the lingering flare, which looks bigger due the Scorch Shot particle effects.

[@SanderTheCockatoo]

"speaking of movement" *T posing heavy slides on stage*

[@0ofambagon0ofambagon70]

That is movement

[@chadnorris8257]

Schrodinger's Heavy. He both moves and doesn't move, at the same time.

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

Short Circuit is pretty blance in terms of the cost effectiveness of the metal use after 2 or 3 shots you can't repair, build, or destory projectiles any more and they can just reload. Scorch Shot is again not bad, but the hitbox is a little too big (kinda nit picking on that one making seems more of a problem then it is). The Natasha is a completely vaild claim.

[@sophiegrey9576]

TO HELL WITH the Natascha and TO HELL the Vaccinator. I hate both of those stupid broken weapons

[@dumbleking5172]

As an engi main, I agree, if you have a whole team behind you my circuit shots run out, that's when your whole team turn the tides. I cant get enough metal to fix/outheal incoming dmg which is pretty strong for any engi (unless there's a large metal pack nearby for use). Remember, engi's greatest weapons is his sentry, if he can't save it, the point he is defending is dead, unless the the engi's entire team is backing him up.

[@maximilianoferrer6841]

@Daniel von Strangle Awwh, is sticky spamming too difficult?

@@dumbleking5172 remember when the m1 of the short circuit was deleting every incoming projectile in a cone larger than the airblast for the cost of 5 metal per shot… now that shit was busted, Nothing compared to what it is today ^^'

[@whammeister3002]

yeah short circuit is fine in my opinion, not like anybody ever uses it anyway

[@amsung2189]

I have only seen the short circuit used on dustbowl to get out of spawn :/

[@ibrahimshaikh6728]

Yeah lmao

[@TheColourRedPA]

Be in a Mach where I’m playing engi... let’s do this Texas style

[@DerpySnake]

I found one on the floor in 2fort and decided to use it. It's pretty fun, but it's 100% not a real problem if you can just not spam rockets/pipes.

[@rokaq5163]

3:55 In all the clips showed, you ran out of metal while still receiving enemy fire. Running out of metal means you have no way to repair or rebuild any buildings, so the damage incoming right after that will certainly put your buildings and yourself in a bad situation. The fact that you cut those example scenes shortly after firing your three shots without waiting for consequences makes me believe that you prefer to ignore that part of the exchange, rather focusing on the immediate interaction. If an Engineer has to prevent incoming damage using the Short Circuit, he needs to time his shots to be as effective as possible in order to justify the 65 metal spent, needs to plan ahead whether he will need that metal for another purpose, and has only 3 chances before having to retreat back to any ammo source. If a Soldier or Demo want to damage any Engineer building while they're using the Short Circuit, they just have to reload and/or keep firing for a bit longer. This creates a necessary lack of balancing in the effort put by each class to achieve their objective, making it much harder for an Engineer to profit off the Short Circuit than for a Soldier or Demo to overcome its counters. Moreover, experience and skill are only partially important when predicting when to use your energy balls, since realistically there is no way to fully predict when a flurry of projectiles will require of a Short Circuit shot during battle, having to guess in many scenarios whether the cost is justified. This provides the Engineer with an expensive yet rewarding weapon that focuses on delaying damage to his team, his buildings and himself, however not for too long and at a hefty metal cost. While I do agree that this time frame might be decissive in some scenarios, in my opinion it certainly isn't the case in most, half, nor even a tenth part of the total amount based on experience and logic. I would like to see a reevaluation of this weapon to either prove my statements wrong or confirm them, but it's up to you to decide whether or not this sort of video interests you.

[@rokaq5163]

5:06 I also have to disagree with some statements being said about the Scorch Shot. While it is true that the stun lock mechanic might be frustrating to play against, you need to remember that the game is plagued with similar mechanics that are never paid attention to. For instance, pills and rockets deal a significant amount of knockback and are frequently used to pop enemies into the air in order to ready a second shot, and while airblast has been reworked countless times until meeting acceptable standards, it's still a stun lock mechanic with varying degrees of utility that the Pyro class certainly needs in order to be effective. On another note, the Scorch Shot only deals this amount of knockback when you land a direct hit. If my inmediate calculations are right, the first hit will deal a consistent 30 damage, and the second minicrit boosted hit will deal 46 damage. Plus full afterburn, this is barely enough to kill any light class, although I will not take afterburn into account since it's extremely inconsistent during any short exchange. This means that the Pyro is rewarded with at least 30 damage for a direct hit, a possible second minicrit boosted hit might ramp it up to 75-ish, and if full afterburn is applied, then that would make for a total 130 damage. We have to remember that this is a single-fire secondary with one shot on the clip at a time, and that the total time needed to deal the total 130 damage might be in a range anywhere between 2-7 seconds. Aiming in "the general direction" of an enemy won't guarantee a direct hit, nor will it deal any sort of knockback or stun lock the target, since this is an exclusive property of direct hits, which are less consistent to pull of and require of better aim and prediction, being curved projectiles. Realistically, this weapon is more often used as an area denial tool, or a deterrent for enemies to peek out certain sightlines. In fact, you were usi g it as such in the majority of clips, only managing to stun lock a few players from a bigger bunch before having to retreat to reload or because you were harmed by enemy fire. Really, the weapon isn't as bad as you paint it to be, and with options like the Detonator, the Flare Gun and the Panic Attack as alternatives, the Scorch Shot seems perfectly balanced for a certain playstyle, working as a side grade secondary rather than the upgrade you suggest it to be. It requires the player to use core skills like prediction, aiming and situational awareness to make the most of it, while providing extra damage given that there was a direct hit (or that the enemy was unaware enough to be hit by the splash multiple times). Seems awfully similar to the purpose of the Flare Gun, except with less potential damage and intended for longer ranges. This exchange between range and damage doesn't seem unbalanced in my eyes, and I will gladly hear your take on it after you examine the weapon more intensely during gameplay. (Also, "flare jumping". Did you mean "crouch jumping but 2 centimeters higher"?)

[@rokaq5163]

Wow and here comes the third. If anything, the Natascha needs a slight buff, and a more consistent reduction of speed albeit at a lower percentage. The Natascha is easily one of the most underused Heavy primaries, and for a reason. The damage penalty makes it less viable as an area denial tool, the speed reduction is sometimes not properly applied (and allegedly just reduces all classes' speed to the same amount of units per second instead of applying it based on a percentage), and its resistances are arguably negligible. The Natascha needs ro be refocused, maybe making it so the speed reduction applies proportionally to the current speed of the enemy, with a more consistent cap and a reduced penalty towards the affected enemy, and improving accuracy ever so slightly at the cost of the damage resistance. I know there are far more experienced people who can add their thoughts to this, since I'm not too avid of a Heavy player, but seems unfair to disregard any and all movement impeding mechanics just because the game rewards movement. That is discussing developer intent, and we are definetly not developers. Every advantage needs a fair counter, and movement as a core mechanic needs to have some sort of hinderance in order to make gameplay engaging and interactive. If that wasn't the case, then there would be no need to strategize during a match, instead positioning would be a secondary issue and would subsequently reduce the skill cap for each class of a game with such a high ceiling as it is

[@OneGrumpyCat]

I kinda wanna step in and say that minicrits on reflected projectiles is honestly pretty balanced. It rewards pyro for proper aim and timing.

[@raito6689]

Also the fact that SC and Natasha are both underused weapon.

[@wetsocks4460]

Rokaq pipes and rockets can’t kill a scout in one click

[@pumello]

This video just comes across as a yelling soldier main that had one too many of his rockets zapped out of existence.

[@thebookless3381]

I already disliked it

[@iceisquitenice]

he doesn't actually main a class

[@alsldoekd]

The arguement for the short circuit is the same as for airblast. except pyros can airblast more than the engie can slap down energy balls

[@thatcatalyst]

Plus, you can do a ton of damage with airblast, if you are good enough or lucky enough

[@silvorthegrand6976]

The short circuit also deals some damage regardless if you erased a rocket or not. However, this damage is negligeble.

[@StarlightTrail3]

Sure, but how many airblasts can you land? How many projectiles can you successfully reflect with a single airblast? What is something that Pyro can build that lets him replenish his ammo that he needs for airblasting? OH WAIT!

[@TrouserSnivy]

@@StarlightTrail3 Pyro doesn't have to be sitting on a dispenser to do it more than engineer can. In a smaller timeframe regardless of presence of dispenser. Airblast can reflect up to an infinite amount of projectiles at a time, proven by a very old video I do not remember the title of, but it may have been one of Muselk's "mythbusters" videos. Reflecting projectiles is as easy as short-circuiting them, with a much larger payoff. Any other questions?

[@Mate_Antal_Zoltan]

@@TrouserSnivy they never replied after 3 months lmao

[@Deathhawkdown]

All i hear are the lamenting of soldier mains Edit: i’m a pyro/medic main

[@galegopaulista4564]

If you're talking about the short circuit bit, I gotta agree with the guy. I'm not even a soldier main (I'm a medic main), neither do I enjoy pocketing other players, but I gotta say, that massive anime shot is really ridiculous, and can be spammed really easily.

[@cringe_bread6531]

@Galego Paulista if you a medic main just pocket a heavy. If engie is using the short circuit he is just more vulnerable to hits can as he is using precious metal from his resevere (and his dispenser’s reserve) to block rockets and bombs. Or have a sniper chip the building. Or just don’t be a braindead Rocket spammer. This is coming from a Soldier main working with your team is how you get wins in casual. Team Players > Casual Roamers

[@fish4225]

@@cringe_bread6531 You don't know what you're talking about

[@cringe_bread6531]

@fish how the short circuit isn’t broken

[@fish4225]

@@cringe_bread6531 Everything

[@TheSpartan451]

Butthurt roamers: the video

[@dd11111]

“Ok Roamer”

[@zacdemarest5493]

this still holds up as best comment

[@cringe_bread6531]

Zac Demarest NOOO YOU CANT SCREW UP MY ROLLOUT THATS UNFAIR!!!! hahah Natasha goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeee

[@fish4225]

Do you ahve brain damage?

[@godoftune]

fish ahve

[@tipsthepizzagirl6739]

Friendly reminder: The people who complain about movement hindering mechanics are the same people that airshot you after popping you 3 feet off the ground with splash damage.

[@Peter_Turbo4]

Thank you for the information Tiddy monster, I was just about to say the same thing

[@tipsthepizzagirl6739]

Shrek pffffffffft

[@jackmaster3134]

@Shrek you just have to shoot their feet point and click no skill needed

[@scammbledeggs2707]

@@jackmaster3134 I do say it takes a bit of skill in positioning and projectile aim. Also airshots are bloody hard even at close. But don't really take me seriously I have shit aim lol.

[@StarlightTrail3]

@@tipsthepizzagirl6739 Why "pfffffft"? Air shots are literally called air shots, you can't ez ground splash them to pull off something like that. Something like this takes way more skill than abusing the Scorch Shot, Natascha, Short Circuit, ect. So here's a friendly reminder to all of you: The people who complain about airshots are the same people who use movement hindering weapons that take way less skill to use.

[@MrCastleburger]

Honestly ive never had much of a problem dealing with short circuit engineers. Considering they can only do it 3 times with full metal, the soldier and demo just have to play smarter. The demo has 8 stickies to work with plus 4 grenades. It’s more difficult for soldier because he only has 4 rockets, but then again he has a shotgun which, granted, is still less effective than his primary. If the engineer is turtling i can see how it might be an issue

[@Mightylcanis]

The issue you mention right at the end is more that turtling is dumb and just shouldn't be done.

[@genericyoutubecommenter589]

"but then again he has a shotgun which, granted, is still less effective than his primary." I don't know what game you've been playing, but the stock shotgun is powerful on any class when used right. With soldier especially it nullifies his close range vulnerabilities and serves as a very reliable finisher. I thought it was useless until I had to use it for a contract, now it's my favorite weapon.

[@MrCastleburger]

@generic youtube commenter True but my point was that it’s more ideal to use your rocket launcher in most situations over the shotgun

[@pancakeperson8905]

Unless my assumptions are wrong, your point about turtling is a little wrong. If an engineer uses his dispenser to keep his metal full, then he's going to run out of dispenser metal very fast, and if you ask me, it's not worth it to use your entire dispenser's metal to keep one sentry up for 15 more seconds.

[@blazer1820]

Short circuit is perfectly fine idk wtf you are talking about.

[@trumoo2058]

I think with proper team comp it could be a little too strong, but then again the wrangler exists and engie in comp is not very common. I personally love it right now, and if it were to get nerfed I probably wouldn't have fun using it

[@Andresortega-nd2js]

plus no one fucking uses the short circuit

[@preyasmanthedemopan2854]

he's complaining cause he's a salty solly main that cant spam quite as easly and has to use more than 2 brain cells

[@silvorthegrand6976]

The short circuit is here to counter a counter. but guess what - there is a counter to that. ever hear of ubercharge? Second, the natascha is here to shut down mainly scouts, not anyone else. Every minigun in the game outclasses the dps of the natascha by at least 30 percent.soldiers can jump away, so can demos. engis should not overextend to even encounter a heavy without the support of his team, same goes for medic. snipers and spies counter heavys, therefore they are not part of the debate. there you go. Edit: another thing you could do is just wait the orb out. Seriously...

[@StarlightTrail3]

just right click and render two classes completely useless at least airblast actually has to be timed

[@koalteufel7947]

"The Short Circut is OP" Don't forget, this is coming from a Batalions Backup user, which also helps the entire team, makes Sentries and Snipers irrelevant, does not require aim AND has an additional passive effect.

[@thegacha1615]

And battalions backup doesn't get countered by delaying your fucking shots by like a second when the ball passes

[@feywildheart2878]

I smell bias. Zesty you prick

[@nugget0928]

And also requires 600 damage to charge.

[@Toons595]

"Does not require aim" Lmfao. It takes 600 DAMAGE to charge bruh, requires precise timing, for you to play around and coordinate with your team. You have no idea what you're talking about

[@thepoglin8479]

yeah but it actualy effort to use and isnt nearly as easy to spam out. granted i dont play that much so soldier so i might be biased

[@bottleoftide4657]

So the scorch shot - hits multiple targets - can hit the same target twice - with each successive hit, you deal minicrits -46 total damage with afterburn -has a sizeable hitbox and explosion radius -direct hits deal knockback -you can jump with it -and can clear stickybombs it's not like there are two classes centered around explosive weapons that deal more than twice that damage in a single direct shot, has 5 of those 7 traits (the ones excluded are the successive hits = minicrits one and hitting the same target twice ability) and is even effective at blasting away sticky bombs. perhaps a loudmouthed american patriot and a black scottish cyclops comes into mind when just listing these attributes

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

We live in a cruel world where soldier mains are the most popular

[@mohammadwaled409]

But you can't surf and air strife the scortch shot unlike the rocket launcher pipe or stickies the problem isn't that there op the problem is that they limit the options of the attacker but restricting movement If im wrong feel free to correct me i don't claim to understand everything about this hideously complicated game

[@preyasmanthedemopan2854]

i love the fact that you're ranting off about the short circute when unless you're hugging a supply locker, you can only use it 4 times max before having to reacharge, and 60 metal is alot for an engie to chuck away. the most "imbalence" this has are soldiers who whine too much cause they cant spame a choke point as easly or forget that shotguns and the heavy exist

[@exportedrice9360]

Actually, You can only use it 3 times before restocking metal

[@TheColourRedPA]

However with the right metal mannage meant or a very good aim and widow maker you can effectively walk at a demo/soldiers (usually roaming soldiers who think there gods) and basically never have to reload... however I personally think the panic attack works better with it as the switch speed lets be whip it out faster. You get the jump on a roamer, fire a ball use the ball to get into range and unleash hell

[@fish4225]

Negating any projectiles at the click of a single button is complete bullshit, that's all that matters

[@alexlloyd5354]

@@fish4225 Well You are quite wrong my friend for one simple reason. THE CATCH. The problem with the short circuit is the spam ability (Payload Cart) Also the cost of clicking that one button when not next to a payload cart is quite massive being 65 metal. All this gives the engineer is a short-term solution to a problem. Because A: used offensively it is fine as it is a weaker easier pyro reflect with a massive cost. B: Used defensively he can not repair a gun while counteracting 1 soldier spam which leaves yo vulnerable to 11 other people. The "skill" of the weapon is understanding when to use it (When not hugging a PL cart) Due to the cost. Offensive engie is about critical thinking in tight situations. It is just another tool in engineers tool box. Also the Wrangler is just better LOL, negates 66% of ALL damage sustainably and gives the gun infinite range. The Short Circuit can only reliably used offensively (Because wrangler is better defensively when countering soldier spam do to rockets doing damage to soldiers around corners) Which leaves us to where you are sacrificing reliable damage for a situational counter with a counterplay called a shotgun. I prefer the pistol thanks a lot.

[@fish4225]

@@alexlloyd5354 The weapon being shit doesn't excuse it shutting down two entire classes and deleting literally all projectiles in the game, in fact that's even more reason to change it into something that's fair for the people dealing with it and good for the class who uses it.

[@GHJKL051]

Random fact: There IS auto-aim for the wrangler. it locks onto the targets if you're close enough to them.

[@kannatheweeb8836]

Oh

[@kohimame]

It was mentioned in the video lol

[@GermanPeter]

1) Why did you not mention the king negation mechanics, the Medi Gun? Or the Quick-Fix, which completely negates knockback? 2) You should have also mentioned explosions, which can also heavily negate movement (which Yoyoness pointed out). People love to rant about Pyro's airblast, but forget that Soldier can do pretty much the same, while also doing damage to his enemies, just by shooting at their feet. 3) You didn't point out that the Wrangler & Short Circuit also have the downsides of a) replacing each other (you can't have the benefits of the Wrangler if you equip the Short Circuit, and vice-versa), and they also force you to use a shotgun that can actually deal damage (i.e. no Rescue Ranger or Pomson), since without that, you have to rely on your team to protect you (and let's be honest, you can't rely on your team). They're pretty overpowered yes, but I feel like they force you into a specific playstyle if you're in a random pub. 4) I still don't get the argument that movement-impairing mechanics have no place in FPS games like TF2. What makes them so special? Yes, they're built around movement and those mechanics hinder that, but TF2 is also built around killing enemies and yet you can heal and übercharge players. It's an annoying mechanic, I'll give you that, but I don't think they should NEVER exist in games like TF2. I don't even mind them in Overwatch, where Mei can literally freeze you. If you truly get that close, your positioning was off and you deserved to be punished for it. Whether it's through getting slowed/ frozen or killed doesn't really matter at that point.

[@ZestyJesus]

1) I put the medigun on the list of weapons, but forgot the quick-fix (woops). Mediguns are perfectly balanced in the game and didn't need much mentioning aside from acknowledging that they have negation mechanics. 2) Every weapon does have its own amount of inherent knockback, yes- I was addressing weapons that have an additional negation function built in that is typically too easily achieved. For instance, you have to actually aim with a scattergun/minigun/rocket launcher etc. to actually achieve their knockback, which actually takes some semblance of skill, unlike the scorch shot. 3) My answer to that is to put two engineers on the team, one with a wrangler and one with a short circuit. Have fun. 4) TF2 rewards players for knowing how to run and gun. Weapons that go against a core mechanic in the game intentionally beyond a reasonable threshold of skill to achieve are counter intuitive to the games design.

[@GermanPeter]

@@ZestyJesus 1) I know, I just wanted you to talk about them as a good example. I love Medic ok 2) I think the Scorch Shot and RL are on the same level in terms of skill. The only difference is that the RL shoots faster, does more damage, fires rockets that travel straight, but doesn't set enemies on fire. It's actually "worse" than the Scorch Shot in a lot of regards. However, the question is whether or not PYRO needs a weapon like that. 3) Multiple Engies are a problem in pubs period. If you have 2-3 Engies camping down a spot, they can bring the ENTIRE game to a screeching halt. Hell, even ONE Engie can do that if the enemy team sucks. 4) I think I understand, but I really don't consider it that big of an issue. TF2 is also a game about killing, but there are weapons that go against the core mechanic of doing damage, since they give you resistance against certain damage.

[@niko_8208]

Every time i look at these comments i can see that you guys are just having a friendly disagreement, but i can HEAR you guys just going ballistic, throwing chairs at each other screaming.

[@zizan2071]

@@GermanPeter dude you destroyed him by.. . Completely valid points and arguments.. God damn

[@conray2338]

@@GermanPeter I know this is a little late but I would like to throw my hat into the ring of stun mechanics. In my opinion ths worst thing to do to a player in a game is to take away control. This is because while better positioning can negate stun mechanics when you get killed becuase you were stunned it feels as if there was nothing you could do. The encounter no longer feels like a battle of strength, practice, and skill; but instead it becomes a tedious task to avoid the stun mechanic so you are not immediately punished with no room for retaliation. Also taking away movement in a movement based shooter is taking parts away from the sum, and like the old saying goes, "The sum is greater than the parts."

[@thatguynamedSrediaR]

Hold up, so he's somewhat fine with airblasting as it reflects projectiles back onto the shooter or yourself if aimed right, of course REWARDING the user for good timing and aiming with minicrits or a rocket jump allowing the Pyro to reposition themself and get the jump on their opponents when used right, but when short circuit cuts the middleman out and removes the projectiles entirely rather then blowing them back at the shooter's face for only about three times or less, even more less then how many times Pyro can airblast, then there's a problem? Not to throw myself head first into the comment war here but either I'm not getting it and I'm mentally disabled or I'm hearing the words of a rather furious soldier main. Either way, I just don't see the point. (Edit: When I said "Not to throw myself head first into the comment war", I guess it was just gonna happen anyways. Welp, I tried.)

[@deekay7018]

He's a rather mad Solly main, since he knows it's pretty much the same thing and he doesn't like the fact that a weapon negates his pub stomping grounds.

[@AGrayPhantom]

Soldier is the most powerful class, and he's sore that there are very few options that have a slight counter to him.

[@joefollo4891]

Airblasting is simply harder than Short Circut balls. In his other video, he shows just how much of an area the Circut interferes with while also pointing out it’s more than generous area of effect and timing. There’s no reward, and nothing to reward for.

[@animatedprotootype3450]

Airblast at least takes some skill to get good at, and you can throw off a pyro by delaying between rockets/pipes. Engies litteraly just press m2, no skill needed, to delete projectiles. Besides, air last is rather small and only lasts for quarter of a second, while the SC orb travels quite the long distance, and lasts for about a second IIRC Essentially, airblast requires skill and timing, while the short circuit is just "press m2 to delete shit"

[@rowandunning5693]

@@joefollo4891 Not really. Metal is everything to an engineer. Not enough metal to resupply/repair your sentry? A demoman/soldier is going to wreck it while you're getting metal more. Spy destroy your buildings while you slowed down the spam 4 soldiers can put out? Guess what? You die because you couldn't put down a level one to take the heat off. The short circuit is a damn situational weapon to use. Use it too much and you can't wrench your buildings. Use it too little and you die from the 4 braindead soldiers spamming the chokepoint with rockets.

[@peterthanos2209]

Grrr! Why would valve give anyone tools to prevent people from just mindlessly spamming rockets at them???

[@cristiandalpino3833]

Grr! why should I be the one avoiding instead of getting a cheap way to deny damage???

[@thegunnitgamer5716]

@@cristiandalpino3833 Tell me, how does a sentry gun, a static building, avoid rockets exactly?

[@cristiandalpino3833]

@@thegunnitgamer5716 It doesn't, you repair it. But with the short circuit or the wrangler you don't have to

[@thegunnitgamer5716]

@@cristiandalpino3833 With the short circuit, you expend more metal than you would healing with the wrench (Turtling) and a lot more than you would with the Rescue Ranger (not turtling) if it is only one soldier shooting at you. With the wrangler you do have to repair, just not as often, and when you do your gun isn't firing, at all, for 3 seconds, which is enough time for said gun to kill a heavy, with damage to spare.

[@cristiandalpino3833]

@@thegunnitgamer5716 Yeah sure, because using 65 metal to delete 3 stickies or 2 flying rockets cost the same than repairing your building The wrangler is OP, you can't say it's not.

[@meltingatom]

The clips shown complaining about the short circuit, dont show it being the game changer...it shows him killing the attacker with a shotty after missing his orb or stopping one rocket...he also loses his sentry in most of the clips. The short circuit was nerfed into the ground thanks to the orb rework, it was useful before and now it's just a self nerf when you use it, you cant use it after just 3 shots, you cant repair when it's out so you have to choose...do I repair through the barrage or do I stock some projectiles while its gunned down from bullets?

[@vivelespatat2670]

that's still fun tho

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

Its just too spammable but expensive right now, and the primary fire is completely useless If they increased the primary fire range, reduced the orb cost to 50 metal, increase firing interval to 0.7 seconds from 0.5 and made it so that the cart gave no metal while it was active, then it would be a good weapon

[@meltingatom]

@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 I'd be ok if they just tossed the orb shit in the toilet and just made it some kinda of barrier , like medics lvl1 mvm upgrade, but just for projectiles...or revert it to it's useful form

[@Heidegaff]

And the Short Circuit was too OP when it removed all projectiles in an area around the Engi. And the Short Circuit was too OP when its metal consuption was increased. And the Short Circuit was too OP when it got the orb. Dude, just ask for the Short Circuit to be removed at this point! Leave the Engi defenseless! No, better, remove the Engi entirely! it's so unfair to give the Engi some ways to fight for their life! He should just be a sack of points that dies the moment you see him!

[@Zmeeed01]

Yeah, that's his cost for having a 150-180-216 HP aimbot Heavy that is immune to crits, whose damage isn't affected by distance, and can be healed uninterrupted.

[@Calzilla-yd8qg]

@@Zmeeed01 "whose damage isn't affected by distance" kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYC9mJKZhtiWY5Y

[@Heidegaff]

Man, I love when people who doesn't play Engi talks about "how easy is Engi".

[@Zmeeed01]

@@Heidegaff when your team is competent enough to win you some time, Engineer is easy. The hard part comes when they can't hold the ground and keep getting your dispenser (which you put there for THEM) destroyed. And don't get me started on the Wrangler and "give me 2 seconds and 6 classes out of 9 cannot cross this area anymore" Jag.

[@0bashie]

@@Zmeeed01 When (blank) is skilled, (blank) is easy. That's about every game. Engie is pretty vulnerable unless he builds in dumb spots where his sentry can kill you, but then again, these places don't happen to get them more than 2 kills max per round, people get used to them and check every corner. Sentries have just so much countering to them.

[@cyanman1073]

"Short Circuit is ubalanced because you don't need to aim" said the soldier main.

[@Strider1Wilco]

You probably play pyro

[@yaaqelo]

​@@Strider1Wilco soldier main cope

[@THE_TOAST]

neither need to aim

[@Vincer]

When i see this kind of criticism im reminded of how much of the tf2 comunity misses the mark on what tf2 mainly is and aimed for. I can't blame, i mean even the devs had show split in that same understanding and they do have unbalanced stuff... but still: its a team game around teamwork and counter tactics. Much like how the doom devs laid out their design based on chess (surprisingly) so is tf2. Harder counters like negation mechanics have room in a game like this- heck its the only kind of setup where these mechanics are welcomed in a action\shooter game. Tf2 happens to have this great gameplay that rewards movement- but its not a game built around that. If it were every class (if there were any) would be parkour like based with transversal tricks on a playing field, or an arena shooter where everyone have the same options. Besides most complains about movement come from a perception of unfairness. A headshot, a backstab, unexpected uber, trap, etc, etc- theres way harder 'counters', but since you die on the spot people don't perceive then as badly. The scorch for example, almost everytime i see people complaining a demoman would be doing the same sort of impact on the other team better then the pyro- but oh no, if it implies less skill and comes from the pyro none the less, oh its a crime against nature. Its a tactical game around teamwork and counters and class swaping. When the other team applies these measures well it asks for you to deal with it, change your current aproach (in the moment) or change class; and that in turn can spur another response that forces the same on then... thats the dance, thats the whole point. If you enter the game choosing your main class, as many do regardless of team setup, and expect to play the same way using the same wining tactics everytime without hard counters... wrong expectations. I can't say 'play something else' because theres no equivalent arena based game that is as fun or as charming as tf2 so theres no ideal alternative- but you can't expect the game to be something it isn't. It reminds me of comp. People complain comp deserves more love and more balance and this and that, also the obvious pretty much set in stone never changing meta; But then they ban the classes and loadouts that could change the meta, and still call then bad on top. In game design living games with a shifting meta thrive on a cycle- a meta rises up, because of that meta the counters rise up, that calls for the rise of another meta as response... if rock became meta paper would become popular, then scissor, then rock again- a dance that could be unending, and end up normalizing a bit (so swithcing instead of using the meta, surprise, would keep the dance more exciting). but no. What many players want is for no one to touch the soldier, demo, scouts at all. Not in the slighest. If cardgames baned every counter to their metas the games would all die out, because of how boring the same meta would be. Tf2 escapes that a bit for being action- but hey, its not as a huge as it was, it is dying out, some longtime players leave it out of boredom and people wonder why. Blame valve, lack of updates, etc, etc but the meta? never.

[@Vincer]

@@SenselessIdea I kinda agree- but how much theyre trully fully negation- and how much different they are from all the other stuff that no one complains but have the same effects in practice? I still think most people get hooked up on optics. For example being hit by natasha slowing you down- you can still fight, and youre receiving less damage. Of course it can be used at a good moment(worse for the receiver) that you are ''trapped'' and thats the whole point, and many hate it for it. But then theres sentries negating the same way and more effectivly no one complains; While someone took more damage or took longer to escape a natasha they would have died to a rocket much quicker, and no one complains I know they cam be a bummer on an individual level- heck im loving to focus on spy now how much more fun i would have without pyros- but they give players options to handle situations in ways that help leveling the challenge level. For example if a team is loosing(for worse coordination or skill) some class changes could be good- but then one player who sucks worse at other classes just changes the loadout to use negation mechanics on some of the top scorers against his team... That scenario the loosing team would still probably lose, but now they would have a chance of winning perhaps; Meanwhile for the winning team the diference changed from a non challenging rolling to a challenging last push. For the game itself as a whole it brings more good then bad. Besides the whole point of anything in competitive games is that whatever is good is bad (for who receives it); From the targets perspective its a bummer but for the user a relief, and everyone (including the target) can use the same tools, and change classes loadout as needed too So if a natasha heavy has stopped how you were rolling as scout maybe going sniper or spy and taking him out- or asking your team to do so... Thats the other point of it- coordination. Changing classes mostly arent even needed if teams comunicate and try to help each other. Of course its hit and miss on pub/casual, but i noticed that trying (in a good mannered way, not cussing or pressure) almost always get some response... meaning the moment someone try coordinating or asks (nicely) for help some people start doing so But i agree some could be changed to be less negating; i wouldnt say intensity but how specificaly could do better. I mentioned natasha because its one of those i defend continuing since movement shouldnt be such a sacred cow and using skill (aim, tracking) to curb an enemy, who could also outsmart and shift their course is very valid

[@MoronicRoc]

I'm going to go out and say this: The current bans in competitive are justified. I'm going to go every ban on the global 6s whitelist and tell you why the majority (that's the keyword) of them are justified. Sodapopper: Not only do you have higher DPS than stock, but you get access to near-unpredictable movement, making it incredibly hard for hitscan classes to hit you, and near impossible for projectile classes. Bonk: Free escape. Normally when a scout is caught out of position, they have to use his incredible movement carefully to escape, but when Bonk is added to the equation, all you have to do is go behind a wall and drink. Crit-a-Cola: Killing medics becomes way too easy. Trading a scout for a Medic is always worth it. Flying Guillotine: I'm gonna be real, this ban is kinda debatable. But still having a powerful long range option is really good, so idk. Mad Milk: Throwing it on the enemy combo = Free midfight victory PBPP: Downside is basically nothing compared to higher DPS and healing on hit, making it too powerful. Cow Mangler: Reduces skill by making it so you don't have to worry about running out of ammo. Disciplinary Action: Get a heavy to mid, slow down the game, and at what cost at the player's skill? ONLY LEFT CLICKING ON A HEAVY AS A SOLDIER. Detonator: I honestly don't know... I can infer that it's because of removing traps, and I would agree with that it's banned to reinforce the meta. Scorch Shot: It's overpowered. Stun mechanics, removing traps, more damage than all other flares in most situations, this weapon does it all. Gas Passer: Bugged. Natascha: Overpowered. Slowing people down in a movement game is really OP. Buffalo Steak Sandvich: Honestly, should be unbanned as it doesn't actually get a Heavy to mid that fast. I recall b4nny saying that if Eviction Notice didn't get Heavy to mid easily, then Buffalo Steak doesn't either. Fists of Steel: Effectively doubles the Heavy's HP, which is really broken. Rescue Ranger: You can use the resupply cabinet to essentially heal a sentry forever from a distance with little skill. Short Circuit: Pushing as Soldier or Demoman is impossible on the last point when combined with the resupply locker. Wrangler: Overpowered. It's been gone over a billion times. Quick-Fix: Slows down the game due to how stupidly good defending with it is. Vaccinator: See above. Machina: Straight upgrade to stock in comp. Sydney Sleeper: Shoot someone = they are going to die to your teammates instantly. Jarate: See Mad Milk. Diamondback: Overpowered. You get crits for free. You be the judge. Are these bans here to enforce the meta, or is it so skill matters more?

[@Vincer]

@@MoronicRoc You missed the point. Bonk make you too hard for hit scan classes and even projectiles? The game have pyros and sentries too. A class that was supposed to set traps as well. Wrangler? God i love seeing wranglers when im playing spy(half of the time)- oh wait, you remenber spy is a class too right? That in bigger teams then 6 theres more possibilities and all that? Im not saying there isnt unbalance- but your whole point ignores that what youre saying stems from the mindset of an arena 'deathmatch', 'individual skill and reward' mentality- and thats NOT what the game was designed to be, never was, and not what it is in fact. Every one of your points have counters. And im talking regardless of how cheap or easier they may feel- were talking dynamics as whole here. Teams, choices- skill is the butter between the breads of teamwork and choosing in response to the other team(be it classes and loadouts)- something that affects the game across the board but never what the game was all about (heck, pyro, engineer and medic were explicitly labeled by the designers as easier to use options for lower skill). That was intentional. Remaking choices is meant as part of the loop- you die, you have the oportunity to shift your choices in response. Sorry to tell you, but the game wasnt supposed for people to pick one class, master it in skill and expect to always have fun and 'no hard counters'. Hell no. i even dare say some of the wilder later additions to the game were in part in reaction to how the skill in it changed. Players got much better and managed the classes in ways the devs never saw in playtest after all. So the original counters and options of the classes didnt apply anymore- in that context, game design wise, giving new stronger options to reshape that dynamic is viable. Heck, imagine engineers without all the additions- sentries are close to a joke near experienced players, rarely killing but just buying time(no wonder it isnt meta). Oh they gave the engineer more ways(even if cheap) of being more relevant... but no, a portion of the community doenst want none of that. Let the weak be ignored and focused on a single way to play... come on 6s dont like any of that- wich is what makes tf2 tf2. They enjoy a deathmatch of skill that is possible inside of tf2 (possible, not what tf2 is)- and only so on specific map types(and just some of these maps), with just some of the weapons, with just some of the classes (because banned or not, the meta is the king at the end of the day). All of this is roundabout way to avoid the simple fact that, well, theyre disliking half of the game and how its meant to be played. Theres NOTHING WRONG with that btw. Just like gamemodes, everyone have their preferences, this can and should be available for all who prefer it. The problem is when that is pushed over to everyone else in the game, or claimed as 'irrefutable facts'. They arent. They all make sense if you like 6s and testing skills in MGE- both things that, unless i missed it, were nowhere in the game trailers you know. I enjoy but im no fan of 6s. But i love Tf2. So i have to disagree

[@MoronicRoc]

@@Vincer "Every one of your points has counters" Yeah, right. If your team gets jarated or milked, congratulations. You just lost the fight. Besides that statement, I still have more to say. Engineer is still a great holding class on last in Sixes, and without the wrangler to boot. Also, have fun sneaking up on a wrangled engineer when he has a Pybro. These weapons reduce the skill required to be effective. To defeat a Wrangled sentry, you require an entire coordinated push with an Ubered Demoman, which requires at minimum 40 seconds to set up. To set up a Wrangled Level 3 Sentry on Last, you need to basically take a sentry, whack it with a wrench until it's Level 3 (you have unlimited metal due to resupply), and then press 2 when enemy gamers show up. Definitely an imbalance of skill there. Another example is the Jarate. To win the midfight normally, you have to take higher positions, do more damage, and drop key targets like the Demoman and Medic. To win the midfight with Jarate, you have to throw it at the enemy team, and the rest of your team tears them apart. Point is, these not only reduce the skill in terms of individual skill, but also teamwork.

[@Vincer]

@@MoronicRoc I agree they deserve nerfs, and good point on the jarate. That IS ridiculous. A wrangled engie is prone to spies, a sprangled engie+spy bro +lvl 3 on last would mean they exchanged 2 power classes and trying to recap (wich by all accounts is less optimal) to setup a stronger defense- it will also mean a reduced power to fight off the enemies from lasts entry points (waiting for that uber)- and it still have a reasonable counter like you said. So a stronger defense (existing as an option) asks for a stronger counter... all ive been seeing is trading tactical choices.

[@Edit-nk6nb]

The main complaint about the Short Circuit is that ... it forces players to switch classes? Don't many classes force that, or at least to flank? Snipers force Heavies to change, Pyro forces Soldiers and Demo to change, ETC

[@tbone2416]

In summary,Sniper bad

[@geoshark12]

Found the soldier or demo main

[@Cat780j]

@@tuna5618 >125 hp Gunslinger: am i a joke to you?

[@mistaht5777]

So what I’m getting from this is that the Battalion’s Backup is the worst item in the game.

[@ZestyJesus]

exactly dont use it

[@maximilianoferrer6841]

I mean, I've won plentiful of times using it. You won't believe the amount of BS denied (Random crits) and snipers becoming practically useless while it's on.

[@cryo5316]

@@ZestyJesus It's actually really powerful if you know that the enemy team has a fully charged crits medic. It can essentially negate the enemy team's push if used correctly. Plus, the extra 20 health it gives you is really helpful sometimes. Oh, yeah and trolldier duels. Those exist. Just get good

[@copyright-hv6en]

@@cryo5316 sarcasm, i think you missed that

[@cryo5316]

@@copyright-hv6en shit you right

[@Yoyoness]

If you really want a taste of movement negation, play Demoknight. Every explosive weapon stun-locks you like the Scorch Shot. Here's an example: "Alright, I've successfully stayed out of this soldier's vision, and I'm at the proper distance to get a crit on him at the apex of my charge. Let's do this." _Soldier hears the charge, turns around, and shoots _*_the floor_*_ in front of him before I can swing_ _I lose all momentum and get bounced straight up in the air, and proceed to get airshotted immediately afterwards_ It's infuriating.

[@sx86]

demoknight is also infuriating to play against btw

[@meth2733]

or the rocket goes directly underneath you and u gain a little bit of height,rockets dont always stop demoknights

[@HobkinBoi]

I once had a moment where a soldier was on the balcony above me, and he shot a rocket to my feet. I just rocket jump using his rocket, then charge at him. But yeah, it can help if you can rocket jump off a soldier's rockets, either to help close the distance or to escape.

[@the_Red_Star]

explosions don't stun-lock you. they merely cancel your charge when the knockback they apply goes directly against your charge's direction. sometimes they pop you into the air and you're still charging. sometimes they don't stop you at all. if you're using the tide turner it _does_ cancel your charge always, but it's up to you to use the massive turning speed to dodge. that's fine. it's the counterplay to an otherwise guaranteed oneshot. as long as it involves a well aimed shot, unlike pyro...

[@0bashie]

@@sx86 Not if you know what you're doing.

[@jackeea_]

"I *loathe* weapons that impede movement in TF2" - he says, despite single weapon in the game applying silly amounts of knockback

[@matheusvasiliauskassoares4361]

Soldiers and Demos are too strong and versatile, everything that makes their life more difficult should be praised

[@skylarredwood5438]

Sounds like someone wants to hide in a corner the whole match.

[@DerpySnake]

Honestly, if it encourages them to stop constantly firing projectiles everywhere with no gain, it's fine to me.

[@altshos]

Soldier, yes Demoman. idk about that one chief. He's a class that rewards good aim and prediction. Soldier is just shoot at the feet for free kills

[@Lol-fo2zq]

Anything that makes demo and soldier weaker makes this game more boring, slow and stalematey. It's your own fault if you get rekt by them all the time

[@vivelespatat2670]

They are not too strong, they are versatile, that's also why the comp meta is the 4 most versatile classes of the game : Scout, medic, soldier and Demoman Heavy is incredibly strong on defense dues to his high health pool , high damage output and the last point of most of the map designed to be more close quarter combat than the first point ( I.E payload, 5CP and A/D) but is much weaker on offense as in order for him to deals damage he needs to revv up/revv down his gun more often than on defense , needs to move much more often and is slow to come in fight as the slowest class in the game. So please, stop saying soldier and demo are too strong , they are not, they are *versatile*

[@xexecuterxx]

"scorch shot is for pyros who cant aim because it has aoe" >soldier main

[@squid-boy4178]

also complains about spam and knock back only difference between that and the rocket launcher is less aoe slower firing sped and far less damage even with a double mini

[@blackholetl]

@@squid-boy4178 isn't the explosion radius for rockets larger than the Scorch shot.

[@squid-boy4178]

@@blackholetl yes

[@blackholetl]

@@squid-boy4178 fair enough have a nice day

[@napoopy]

wait he's actually a demo main lol

[@hisquid]

"Reflected projectiles should not deal mini-crits." *THUNK* Also, players should be rewarded for good timing and aiming. Don't change my mind because you won't

[@TrouserSnivy]

You're right. So maybe Valve will eventually make it so reflecting projectiles as pyro actually takes good timing and aim. Until that happens, you're rewarded for one of the lowest effort, lowest skill-intensive maneuvers a projectile class has access to. If you genuinely find it challenging to do it, I am very sorry for your inability. Maybe you should consider adjusting your interp to what is optimal for a projectile class. Or stop playing in servers you have over 120 ping in. Or just get better at the game.

[@zaltypiez8483]

@@TrouserSnivy Uh.. Pretty sure airblast is mostly useful with good timing. I mean, I speak from experience. Also, if you say "get better at the game", don't you agree that it actually takes some sort of skill?

[@TrouserSnivy]

@@zaltypiez8483 "An amount of skill," is not equivalent to any notably decent amount. Being able to walk on my own is a skill. It's an unimpressive one that even the most useless of humans are capable of doing. Similar to walking, the only humans that are incapable of reflecting projectiles consistently have to be crippled in some way.

[@TrouserSnivy]

@@cibo889 If you genuinely can't, then yeah, I would imagine you have some sort of physical or mental disability that either affects your motor skills or dampens your reaction time. I'm sorry if you actually do have that, that has to suck. And nothing against you if you do. I'm just saying it would take being that unfortunate to be incapable of this.

[@zizan2071]

@@TrouserSnivy well by the manner of writing I say we have genuine soldier boy. Let me guess, this kind of negativity comes from your own experience because despite knowing that enemy pyro is actually good at reflecting you kept shooting him an he kept stuffing those rockets back to you. And instead of actually recognizing your mistakes you just put your hands into the air and scream "THAT'S LOW SKILL DIPSHIT GARBAGE" I am very disappointed.

[@dylken5695]

Zesty Jesus: Game rewards movement Soldier: *Laughs in beggars*

[@firespark0774]

mid air jumps. need I say more?

[@gibus7854]

To be fair, with the amount of high mobility that other classes can bring to bear, the Natascha allows Heavies to bring them down to their level, forcing that class to fight on the Heavy's terms rather than jumping around like a GOD DAMN FLY ON CRACK, GET OFF OF MY SCREEN ALREADY, SCOUT!

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

natascha is not that good. its massive damage penalty makes it a horrible choice as a weapon. why slow down enemies when you can just gun them down in an instant? 25% damage penalty is MASSIVE

[@gibus7854]

@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 Again, the Natascha helps to deal with very fast and mobile classes, such as the scout. Sure, the stock minigun deals higher damage, but you won't be able to hit enough bullets to make a difference against a scout that knows what he's doing. Use the Natascha to mitigate their agility and that reduction won't matter as much.

[@theenigma553]

Gibus Yeah, I really only use it to punish FAN scouts, obnoxious demomen or annoying trolldiers. It’s just not viable outside of those scenarios. Damage becomes more important

[@boomeronet7888]

Well it deletes trolldier and it's the scout b gone version 2, version one being the direct hit

[@Argonwolfproject]

A lot of people that play a lot of TF2 and have big youtube channels will never understand what it's like to be in the lower castes of the TF2 player base. They think eventually everyone can become that skilled, and don't care that we don't all have the coordination to be light speed scouts, and mostly it's just a way for them to justify not giving low skilled players a break once in a while, because that would mean they have less easy meat to gun down and inflate their egos.

[@norahsnewgroove]

I personally don't find the Short Circuit to be a bad implementation of this negation idea. Mainly because it's very much a risk/reward style of design, 65 metal is a pretty hefty commitment for a couple more seconds of longevity for your buildings. Plus, sure, whilst it may neuter the aggression of Soldiers and Demos, Pyros, Heavies and pretty much any Uber'd power class still remain a threat. I think it's damage is a bit too high though, given the huge range of the energy orb. If memory serves it's 65 if you get all your hits in? That's a bit too much, methinks.

[@Zmeeed01]

It does 15 damage for each 0.3-ish second while target is in the orb. So it does usually 30-45 damage, 60 maybe if the target runs from the orb

[@StarlightTrail3]

It's not really risky when you can just stay next to your dispenser and make it physically impossible for your counters to actually be your counters.

[@solforecast2101]

@@StarlightTrail3 Fun fact. Dispensers still runs out of metal.

[@deekay7018]

@@StarlightTrail3 Fun Fact, fun fact: If you can't counter a fucking ball, then congrats you suck

[@solforecast2101]

@@deekay7018 Try playing any banner solly against one of those on the road actually.

[@_httpkirby]

> Not acknowledging Scout’s infuriating stuns

[@crazeddesk]

-Fastest class; in game gets slowing and knockback mechanics

[@Patapon1222]

Because roamer solly can delete scouts no problem, that's why scout's a okay

[@g80gzt]

heehoo knockback shotgun or shove handshotgun heehoo cleaver that crits slowed enemies heehoo ball that slows enemies

[@OlaftheGreat]

@@g80gzt I don't care if it pisses them off, NATASCHA ALL THE WAY

[@tsunamio7750]

3:14 You want to remove tools to the engi and soldier... tools that almost no one use... tools that are sub efficient for already outmatched classes...

[@ProfessorSquid]

*Time to use those broken weapons now*

[@Jarethenator]

Gosh, t's almost like these weapons require the other players to...adapt...or work together...as a..."team" or something...

[@goose535]

That's hard in a pub

[@pepperonipizza8200]

But let's not talk about the Loose Cannon because Demoman is our perfect little angel.

[@taxevasion6309]

Pipes aren't particularly easy to hit. They require prediction. And if you don't know the timing to do a Double Donk you're just doing less damage than you would with any other launcher.

[@leonardo9259]

@@taxevasion6309 the drum roll of the double donk alone does 600dmg what you mean

[@taxevasion6309]

Good one.

[@mbsb1376]

Someone doesnt know metal management.

[@Aarmastah]

That Ford F-150 flare clip is quite possibly my most favorite of all time. I completely agree with your points here

[@Hunter-ze3my]

@@dopplereffect9246 the talking is what matters, not the gameplay.

[@Sanio46]

Providing the Scorch Shot clips was pretty fun, as I rarely play Pyro and I keep telling myself its a good class to get good at. also 6:20 yeti legs a pose

[@someidiotwithafryingpan3752]

If it counters Soldier, I'm all for it.

[@meremass5508]

00:30 THIS men, is why I use the Natasha.

[@sorrynothing.]

Soldier main: noooo you can't just cancel my brainless spam down the choke!! Engie: haha short circuit goes zap.

[@joshuamedina6807]

That moment when it's so late you misread the title as negotiation mechanics which is something completely different

[@mayauppstad9883]

Dude you forgot the ultimate mobility negation mechanic. Sentries.

[@benjamingrove4976]

Maybe you should make a follow up video about how stupidly overpowered the splash damage classes are in TF2. Or about how scout is, without a doubt, the single best 1v1 class in the game. Or how each of these weapons has substantial debuffs so they aren't viable in all situations, almost like they are made to be SITUATIONAL COUNTERS, like how the entire game is designed. Just maybe

[@bluehat3673]

Splash classes really aren't op, just good soldier is weak to heavy, a medic combo, scout, pyro, and kinda sniper demo is weak to heavy, a medic combo, scout, pyro and kinda sniper

[@richardomilos8686]

you forgot the short circuits main weakness it isnt the wrangler

[@Witchlexis]

"Forces you to fight on their playing field", code for "If I can't make my e-peen feel big for playing brainless class #2 then clearly the game is broken"

[@jasonzhang3685]

Alexis Noxiouswolf soldier is not brainless, but he is a salty soldier main complaining about the worst engine secondary

[@simplysmiley4670]

Meanwhile me holding Scorch Shot and Natasha: _"Anyways I started blastin'."_

[@258thHiGuy]

Honestly, any Robotnik reference in a modern video is a win in my book

[@brandonharris6728]

This is just complaining the video. I wish there was actually substance behind his clear bias against these weapons.

[@bitzthe8bit668]

opinions reeeeeee

[@kannatheweeb8836]

Y u have a monster musume picture.

[@brandonharris6728]

@@kannatheweeb8836 no u

[@kannatheweeb8836]

@@brandonharris6728 i know that she's the milf spider. You have good tasted. Watched mm 7 times uncensored and once censored.

[@kannatheweeb8836]

@@brandonharris6728 idk. She's hot

[@LuisEdGm]

But the battalion backup fully negates an entire class: the Sniper This is the same argument as for the short circuit, this is just your bias

[@taxevasion6309]

Nerfing the instakill hitscan long range class in a game mainly defined by close-mid range interactive combat? I'm all for it. But yeah, the short circuit isn't that good when the Wrangler is much larger of a problem.

[@vikb8340]

10 minutes of a very angry scout main complaining about not being able to flank due to other people actually trying to play...

[@Lol-fo2zq]

Nice job being knowingly dishonest. He's obviously not a scout main

[@MrPixel_]

incorrect, a scout main would not feel so much anger towards the short circuit. Probably a soldier main.

[@ismaelchaves4413]

Not a scout main, he was way more angry at pyro and engi bc they can deny his feet clicking machine go boom but as much at the natascha lol

[@cherrybomber4864]

Imagine complaining about the two least used weapons in the game.

[@cherrybomber4864]

also that's a very bold claim to assume Pyros that use the Scorch Shot can even AIM

[@spacehitler4537]

@@cherrybomber4864 This I use it because I can just light people on fire more, and occasionally destroy stickies.

[@elcirco5711]

@@spacehitler4537 no you use it cuz you cant aim

[@mohammadwaled409]

@@elcirco5711 man some people take these stereotypes to seriously

[@elcirco5711]

@@mohammadwaled409 bro has anyone with a scorch shot ever actually direct hit you with it?

[@lamster7422]

4:18 I see, what you did there...

[@awerelia]

i like how the soldier at 8:37 momentarily turns into a tornado

[@ZuperZombiezlayer]

Hurricane Jane (Also. Hi, Alex.)

[@awerelia]

@@ZuperZombiezlayer (hi)

[@anamayarawa514]

Dude, everyone is discussing points in the video, but the thumbnail was a reference to the OctagonCollaboration! I fucking love their videos and I respect you for referencing them!

[@itsjustthemo]

"The Vaccinator is too overpowered when you are good at using it" dude... mobility can't be left untouched in this game. This is not 6s meta. There needs to be a counter for everything. Melee the vac medic or stab the short circuit engie. Think

[@thegacha1615]

Or, use you know, shotgun, it also exists if you're playing as a soldier.

[@AwaadhM]

The direct hit clip at the beginning was unreal

[@nigou7550]

Its thanks to people like you that the Sandman got nerfed

[@arnelbraga4745]

Do you really want to get hit by a fucking ball, not move at all and is vulnerable to all fucking things that can kill you?

[@dominusempyreus2383]

imagine wanting stun mechanics in a movement-based game

[@stupidloser2714]

2019 and I still can't hit a ball

[@MrPixel_]

Eh, in defense, the sandman slowdown was ridiculous. I just wish they didn't leave the weapon to be completely useless.

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

That's what I was thinking the entire video. The reserved shooter didn't deserve to be become completely pointless and I hope the scorch shot never gets nerfed into a new weapon.

[@mrspiffy8587]

The short circuit is actually pretty well balanced since the engineer can only use it 3 times. The biggest problem is when the engineer is on the payload cart since it gives them an infinite supply of metal to spam the weapon, completely negating 2 classes for as long as they want. I'm going to suggest what Uncle Dane did and say the short circuit should prevent the engineer from picking up metal while it's equipped or prevent them from getting metal from the cart at all.

[@DaRkLoRdZoRc]

A tryhard Soldier main bitching about weapons that nullify his damage-shitting and epic pro rocket jumps. Absolutely *shocking.*

[@jackgras]

ok soldier main lets talk about the escape plan

[@GeorgeCowsert]

The main flaw I see in your arguments is that you're talking from the perspective of a Roamer main. I'm sure people have already pointed this out, but the Short Circuit is basically just a flashy weak airblast in practicality. As an engineer main, I can safely say that 65 metal is definitely a fair trade for some safety from soldiers and demos since that's roughly 30% of your metal reserves, which could've been spent building, upgrading, or repairing. Unless I'm stuck in spawn, I can't spam the Short Circuit without having to scavenge for metal, which takes up more time in the long-term. As for most of your examples, they can easily be countered by saying "why would you let an enemy into that situation to begin with" or "why not just adapt to counter the enemy strategy?" For the Holiday Punch, it's practically impossible for a heavy to even get at close enough range to use the thing. Just shooting him or moving away is enough to counter him. For the Short Circuit, just WAITING for the ball to pass and tanking the damage is enough to counter it. For the Natasha... ok the Natasha has no excuse it's basically just a game of Statue but you're actively being shot at. The Scorch Shot and Natasha are basically the only weapons that need a genuine rework since they give their user an advantage that can't be countered. With airblast you're objectively wrong about your stance on minicrits. Pyro's, despite being marked as an offence class, are actually most effective when played defensively, since their fire damage serves as an unspoken area of denial tool. The minicrits from airblasts are the enemy's punishment for shooting at the enemy pyro and the pyro's reward for hitting an airblast and actually aiming it properly. To a soldier main it might seem unfair, but consider the fact that pyro's have to know all the facets about rockets and pipes to actually make use of reflects effectively.

[@seokkyunhong8812]

Nastacha's counter is literally fight. It revs slower, it deals less damage. It's a weapon that forces the fight or flight to a single answer, just like the brass beast. Brass beast you flight, nastacha you fight.

[@vivelespatat2670]

@@seokkyunhong8812 with the stock , you jump around the corner and shreds your ennemies With the Beast, ennemies jump around the corner and get shredded.

[@the_real_boogeyman]

Gentlemen, there is an easy solution to every single one of these weapons. *Just switch to sniper and headshot the entire enemy team*

[@misosasoup]

so, if he loathes weapons that prevent movement, then does he love rocket jumping, double jumping, and other cool movement mechanics in the game?

[@ChipDrewPog]

Surprised he mentioned the Natascha but not the sniper shields, because those are arguably worse than the short circuit, Sniper, the already overpowered class with little interaction and counterplay gets to completely counter one of his counters at no downside whatsoever on himself, you get to completely shut down two of the few counters your braindead unskilled class has and the only drawback is that you fuck up your own Medic with the razorback by not letting him build Uber off you. While the circuit counters 2 classes it at the very least has some sort of cost, that you lose a significant chunk of your precious metal to create a temporary window where 2/9 classes are unable to fight. The sniper shields permanently shut down one entire class at zero cost to the sniper, with zero input from the sniper himself, it takes more skill to place a level 3 sentry in the 2fort intel and watch the gibus scout get torn to bits if he makes it past the Aussie Wall 2fort battlements are typically cursed with than to play sniper with a shield on.

[@RandalButternugs]

Calls pyros bad for using the scorch shot because it can deal splash damage, requires no aim, and if aimed correctly can impede movement yet mains soldier using a rocket launcher which does also does all of these things but triples the damage 🤔

[@ihitonmilfs]

this whole video is just angry soldier propaganda stay mad john doe

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

A Negev machine? Isn't that a gun in CS:GO

[@GregorTheVolsung]

Sounds like the opinion of a soldier main that loves spam rockets down corridors. Short curcuit is a counter to one of the most annoying part of a pub match... demo and soldier spam.

[@siromnoms]

Soldier mains talking about nerfs... BWAHAAHAHAHAAAAA

[@ulitharid8907]

Here's something funny. It costs the engineer less metal to repair the damage of a stock rocket/pill, than it costs to fire 1 short circuit ball. It's actually worse than just using a wrench unless the soldier/demo deliberately fires into the GLOWING BALL OF PROJECTILE DESTRUCTION.

[@angelmin8819]

6:20 Speaking of movement Shows a-posing heavy

[@nyaxayn7885]

"speaking of movement" : Heavy A-posing violently

[@tuna9917]

8:56 me when I play TF2

[@hmmm2359]

I think the manmelter would also count as reflection

[@Calzilla-yd8qg]

"Soldier main screeches about engineers who don't use their most powerful weapon"

[@ZestyJesus]

I don't main a class

[@TheMystbane]

@@ZestyJesus we're supposed to believe that?

[@ToddSnap3]

The skill involved in the short circuit is in metal management my dude

[@NSluiter]

I think, for the Natasha, they should bring back the additional ammo to replace the slowing effect.

[@unknownuser8967]

The Salty Dog That will UP since you gave up damage for only slight ammo. Maybe instead give Heavy speed boost per hit instead and reduce dmg penalty slightly.

[@thebigyes8482]

The Salty Dog IMO it should take the role of the tanking minigun with the damage resistance it already has, along with partial crit resistance and knock back removal.

[@Ze_N00B]

I think the biggest negation mechanic that you failed to mention is a soldier medic combo. Soldier is already a very powerful class when on the ground. All you have to do is shoot at the ground near your enemies and you'll hit them with guaranteed splash damage. Combining this with 300 hp AND faster uber charge due to his broken ability to damage himself and build uber faster, a pocket medic soldier gives a hearty "FUCK YOU" to any and all skill as you let your splash do the aiming for you, and have the medic both healing your owies and ubering you when YOU step into the entirety of the enemy team. Even the short circuit can't do jack shit about it. And even if you kill the medic, that coward will perform his "ULTRA HIGH SKILL" tactic of performing a basic bitch rocket jump and running back to his spawn. It'll take the entire fucking team just to kill them allowing the rest of the enemy team to sneak up on you or complete the objective. Fyi, the full quote is: ,,Jack of all traites, master of nun, is often better than a master of one. And that is why soldier mains that use pocket medics are as brainless as the soldier himself. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[@nadroji6549]

"Incorrect opinions by Heavy mains", seeing as the Natasha is heavy primary, I don't see how a Heavy main's opinion on a Heavy weapon can be 'Incorrect.' Also if the game removed these mechanics from these weapons, then the lose the reason to lose them, if Valve removed the Short Circuit's ability to destroy projectiles/stickies, then what's the point of using it? People already consider the SC the worst Engie primary, or maybe opinion has changed since they added that alt fire energy orb, but w/o these mechanics they would either be sub-bar versions of preexisting weapons or they would lose all value altogether.

[@keterpatrol7527]

i clicked on this video thinking you called it a joke name based off of some playstyle or mechanic. i didnt expect an entire tf2 mechanic

[@T0moko2001]

I love negation mechanics. They're like a big middle finger to who ever is on the receiving end. One of my favorite parts about TF2. If you can't deal with them find a way around them aka get good lol

[@KingTigerGuy]

something you missed was when you showed all the items, you neglected to mention, or forgot, that the battalions backup does fully negate two things, not just reduce damage, those being damage knockback, say like from a sentry gun, and critical hits. These combined make it second only to an uber to push a nest, and better for a choke as you give it to all teammates around you.

[@leonardo9259]

Mainly because he can use it with his main, if any other class had a batallions backup it would be OVERPOWERD PLS DON'T NEGATE MY SPAM"

[@matheusstar_6373]

The force-a-Nature is my favourite scattergun because I really like doing force jumps to get around the map and possibly flank

[@Zmeeed01]

I like it because it actually feels like a sawn-off break-action shotgun

[@kevinolmedo675]

Airblast not perfectly balanced? Airblast *is* balanced.

[@uselessshroob]

0:28 As all things should be...

[@maxwell_edison]

0:18 "There aren't just a few of these weapons, there's QUITE a few of these weapons!"

[@flytrapYTP]

Tbh I like the Short Circuit, but if it has to be changed to increase building longevity, then I'd make the orbs do AOE healing to buildings on impact.

[@exportedrice9360]

Is this a joke?

[@gordistador]

Literally you have the wrenches and the Rescue Ranger for that. Braindead idea.

[@remuvs]

The scorch shot also applies the reduced heal rate whilst on fire debuff for the full afterburn length.

[@Cat780j]

As heavy would say: CRY SOME MORE!!

[@chickenpower5732]

Zesty: *pops battalion's right as heavy gets shot and dies*

[@Ze_N00B]

When it came to the short circuit, I disagree. The short circuit uses a LOT of metal and its very unlikely for you to have access to ammo while a soldier or demo is attacking you. That metal could've been used for upgrading or repairing buildings. Spam projectiles to reduce their metal then use the window of opportunity while they're getting more metal to reload or attack. Plus, a team shouldn't have that many demos and soldiers in the first place. But I do think it should be improved. Maybe instead of a ranged ball, it should have a blast like the pyro's airblast that takes the same amount of metal and destroys projectiles.

[@weaponizedpizza8825]

I love the natascha for being the best weapon for crushing tiny baby men.