ZorDon Reacts to Sonic 3 - Ice Cap Zone (Prototype/MJ Versions) & "Hard Times" | Sonic Saturdays!

[@olliesidaway]

Okay so to simplify the series of events: - MJ and his team of producers are brought onto Sonic 3’s production to make some music for it. At this point, the games regular composers had already made a prototype soundtrack (the one you heard) but were planned to be replaced by MJ. MJ liked the Sonic games and MJ was a big name so you’d think it’d be a slam dunk. - Many of the tracks the team made were based on previous MJ songs or unreleased songs from his producers (such as Brad Buxter from the Jetzons). - However, MJ and his team found out that making music for a 16-bit sound chip was much more complicated than making regular music. Because of this, him and his team never liked the sound of the tracks. - Due to this, and the controversy of MJ at the time, he and his team left the production meaning only a handful of tracks were made with MJ’s team. While the number had never fully been confirmed, the tracks that we can confirm were indeed made my MJ’s team were Ice Cap, Carnival Night, Launch Base, the Credits theme and some other jingles. - The game releases with the mix of Sega original tracks and MJ’s tracks. Nobody for many years knew of the collaboration so everybody assumed all the tracks were made by Sega. - Fun Fact Sonic 3 is only half of what Sonic Team intended to make with the game. Due to MJ’s leave and a faulty McDonalds tie in deal (a whole other can of worms). The game was split into to half’s, Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles. The cartridges could be connected using “lock-on technology” and in doing so, you could play the combined game and what Sega originally intended for the full game. (This combined game is known by the fanbase as Sonic 3 & Knuckles). - That is until 2009 where MJ’s estate and lawyers notice the multiple re-releases of Sonic 3 with MJ’s track on it. This is were a lengthy legal dispute took place were MJ’s estate argued that because the songs MJ created for the game we’re based off already existing songs owned by MJ or bands like the Jetzons, that they therefore wanted compensation for the songs inclusion in the game and its re-releases. Sega obviously didn’t want to do this as MJ made the songs FOR SEGA. Sega ended up meeting in the middle and decided to rarely, if ever, re-release Sonic 3 to avoid legal conflicts. - in the year 2020, the Jetzons record label discover the unreleased tracks including Hard Times and release them on an album. This and the legal dispute finally revealed to the public MJ’s involvement with Sonic 3. - this all culminated with the recent release of Sonic Origins in 2023, a remastered collection of Sonic’s 16-bit games including Sonic 1, 2, CD and 3&Knuckles. This was the first time 3&Knuckles was included in a collection like this and this was because Sega had found a solution to the music problem. They decided to replace the tracks that had MJ’s involvement and replace them with the original prototype themes, meaning no legal dubiousness. - the downside of this, however, was that instead of using the already existing prototype tracks, Sega decided to bring in Jun Sunoe (one of the original composers of Sonic 3) to recreate the tracks from scratch and finally “finish” them. The end result was a collection of tracks that were simply not as good as the prototypes. The fanbase generally put Sonic 3’s music in high regard, even the prototype tunes, but the recreates lacked the sauce (for a lack of a better way to describe it). So this wild story had quite a lackluster conclusion with the only silver lining being that Sonic 3 & Knuckles can now be playable on modern consoles without MJ’s estate knocking down Sega’s doors. I apologise if this was long and if I got info wrong (this was all from memory). But I hope this all helps :)

[@ZorDonofDoom]

@@olliesidaway thank you for taking the time to write all of this!!! Made it really easy to follow

[@TruExtentChannel]

​@@ZorDonofDoom Additional fun fact: when you play Sonic 3 & Knuckles by using the "Lock-On Technology", some music in Sonic 3 gets replaced by music in Sonic & Knuckles. Stuff like the title theme, Knuckles theme, credits theme, etc. My personal theory is this was done intentionally to cover up some of MJ's team's work but idk how much that's the case vs technical limitations of the time.

[@tek3576]

The bit about not liking the genesis sound font was never confirmed, especially when theres a MJ game for the system. I'm pretty sure he just let Brad Buxer work on it because he was busy

[@tek3576]

Also I'm not sure it's actually MJ's estate that had issues with the OG tracks being used and was just Brad being stingy and not letting SEGA use them for a fair price or some kinda deal.

[@tek3576]

And yeah Jun just doesn't know how to work with the genesis sound font anymore and but insists on trying to replicate it in games like Sonic 4 and Superstars where the music isn't necessarily BAD (well maybe 4 is bad) but don't sound good because of his limited knowledge and use of old instruments from Sonic 1 and 2 that don't sound as good as the ones from 3 and 3D Blast Genesis. I think Bouncy (Bouncy Glow's Music Room) did a better job at finishing the prototype tracks

[@eduardodecastro8638]

Her wearing a shirt that says "Alien 'Ice' Vibe" for an Ice Cap Zone reaction video is pretty cool, an interesting addition to the details.❄️

[@whitewinter0208]

Actually, The Jetzons composed "Hard Times" in 1981 whereas Sonic 3 was released 13 years later in 1994. Most people tend to think that the theme has something to do with MJ's "Smooth Criminal", released in 1987, but, except from the intro and some sections of the song, I think it's more precise to say that Ice Cap's tempo and overall bass was composed after "Hard Times". SEGA denies that MJ had something to do with the OST of the game. But after The Jetzons' breakup in 1983, their keyboardist, Brad Buxer, worked with a lot of other artists of that time, including MJ as his musical director for almost two decades. And one of the theories involving the copyright issues related to the theme is that Buxer recycled "Hard Times" for the game as he thought since The Jetzons never released the song, it wouldn't cause any harm to use the sample. But his former band members didn't like this because they felt that Buxer was taking all the credit for "composing" the song, so they had to come to an agreement behind closed doors. And probably one of the conditions was to never use the theme for Ice Cap used in Sonic 3 ahah

[@hariodinio]

Which is a shame because the theme is definitely distinct enough and is way better than the prototype which is what sonic team has resorted to using in the rereleases.

[@bardhi09]

False. The only Jetzons member I heard comment on Sonic 3 was the vocalist Bruce Connole and he said that Brad composed that song so it's fine if he reused it. I think it's just Brad lying again, most likely the Ice Cap renditions were always owned my MJ and now are owned by Sony or MJ estate or both.

[@blueknightskeleton8424]

Something more that i love of Hard Times is that actually fits Icecap more than the BETA/PC Icecap theme. Act 1 happens right after escaping an airship in the middle of the night, descending (Sonic using a door like a snowboard, so swag) into a dark, crystaline cold cave where you need to avoid stalactites and ground always on the move. Act 2 you're finally outside, it's daytime and the blizzard is gone, but that doesn't mean to chill out that much, this ain't no winter wonderland, and danger can be anywhere. The true nature of cold wilderness, peak itself.

[@ThisisTheUltimate]

I agree, excluding the airship thing, since that was supposed to be a thing from the original level order with Flying Battery taking place in-beetween Carnival Night and Ice Cap, so in the final version Sonic just snowboards down in the dawn, the night carried from Carnival Night ending, and at the end of the act daytime finally arrives And, although I do prefer Hard Times, Ice Cap fits better with it, and I like it over the Prototype theme, for the other 2 zones, I'll be honest and say I like the Prototype better, ESPECIALLY Carnival Night, both acts of Proto Carnival Night are so upbeat and energetic, makes me really feel at a Carnival, and Launch Base, while I do love the final version, I love the Prototype Act 2, Act 1 not as much, it still is good, but I like the final version better, but for Act 2, damn, I love the Proto version

[@Scroteydada]

Sonic lore was exhausting before the games even had proper stories

[@kaidenwanna3209]

Remember for the Unleashed boss tracks you must watch, "Boss Battle (Day)", "Boss Battle (Night)", "Vs. Titan & Big Mother", "Vs. Egg Dragoon", "Vs. Dark Gaia", and Super Sonic vs. Perfect Dark Gaia in that order as that is both the order of appearance and the tracks gradually ramp up in intenstity as well as the scale of the boss fights.

[@somehelluvafanboy8357]

Vs Titan and Big Mother either shouldn't count or should come first considering it plays before even the Mazuri boss and it's not even a boss fight It's less intense than the Night Boss theme too, ngl

[@kaidenwanna3209]

@ place Vs. Titan and Big Mother BEFORE night boss but DO NOT SKIP IT then

[@ThisisTheUltimate]

@@kaidenwanna3209 I think Vs. Titan and Big Mother should be the very first on the list, it's a small encounter, it would be better to start in the small mini-boss fights and getting each time themes for greater and greater enemies

[@jamiewilliamson9829]

I added some info on one reply in the comments, but let me just break down with the Jetzons involvement. The Jetzons were a new wave group in the late 70s/early 80s. They didn't last long and I don't know much about their charting history, but one song they created was Hard Times in about 1982 that went unreleased. One of the members of the Jetzons was keyboardist Brad Buxer who went on to work with such people like Stevie Wonder and the one person he is infamous for working with is Michael Jackson. Sometime during the Dangerous era, MJ visited the SEGA America and was apparently asked to do some music for a new project, this we now know as Sonic 3, he then put Buxer in charge and he created a team, but MJ still contributed, just not as much as people think. The tracks we know MJ did were Carnival Night Zone and the Sonic 3 credits. Carnival Night Zone used a bit of the song Jam, using the trumpet melody that lead into Heavy D's rap, as well as a voice sample (albeit, heavily compressed) of Heavy D saying Jam from the same song. Anyway back to The Jetzons and Sonic 3. Brad Buxer used Hard Times for Sonic 3, probably as it was unreleased. We then fast forward to 2008/2009 when a record label called Fervor Records acquired the rights to the entire Jetzons music catalogue including unreleased tracks such as Hard Times. It wasn't until a few years when the Sonic community really connected the dots as this was still seemed like a big period on looking deep into the development of Sonic 3's soundtrack, where people noticed The Jetzons and it's keyboardist Brad Buxer who worked with MJ and was credited with Sonic 3. This is when they noticed Hard Times and heard IceCap Zone. Fervor Records later hearing about all this didn't mind cashing in on this as they mentioned IceCap in the video's description and in 2020 released a vinyl single release of it in an IceCap Zone sleeve and the vinyl is Sonic blue. This is limited to 250 copies, I myself am fortunate to own. Funny thing is, Hard Times was written by Bruce Connole, who is Buxer's bandmate in The Jetzons.

[@calleha01]

Woah Buxer didn't even write the song himself? I never knew

[@calleha01]

Wait do you mean the lyrics or composition?

[@jamiewilliamson9829]

@@calleha01 I don't know if it was the lyrics, composition or both, but all I know is that it's Bruce Connole's work.

[@calleha01]

@@jamiewilliamson9829 that's incredibly interesting

[@domf245]

You gotta check out "Infinite" from Sonic Forces!!

[@Potatoboii2]

bro is the sharpest of weapons

[@marlo176]

​@@Potatoboii2 bro is the roughest of waves

[@RealmenteUmNome]

​@@marlo176 bro is infinite

[@Potatoboii2]

HOLY HECK IT HAPPENED Guys subscribe with notifications and like the video to get more quality content :D

[@DubiousDepthsRadio]

XD you've been suggesting this since the Quartz Quadrants reaction lol U deserve it hehe🔥🔥

[@oopus4]

MJ loved video games and had a pretty close relationship with Sega

[@Sanic-T-Hedge]

Hopefully at some point we can get the frontiers character themes

[@Neo-Metal17]

Yes, the genesis trilogy is getting it's time to shine, Sonic has had bangers since the beginning. Also in the CD stream, I brought up Sonic 1's OST and said the entire OST could be it's own video/stream since it isn't long. Is that still a possibility?

[@Potatoboii2]

and then a separate stream for every version of green hill-

[@DubiousDepthsRadio]

The whole trilogy is possible honestly She could finish it in under 2 hours unlike the cd stream which was 6 hours 💀 But that was an appreciation stream sooo yeah Best 6 hours of my life😌

[@Neo-Metal17]

@@DubiousDepthsRadio True, it seems she's already started on S3&K though so maybe it'll just be 1&2

[@XenonSlayer]

If you search Hard Times Ice Cap you'll find the mashup which is a proper bop. It's a shame the re-releases don't have the original but pretty sure mods exist to bring them back in.

[@MrTanokki]

If you want a more obvious one (although it would Definitely get copyright claimed) the Sonic 3 Credits theme is clearly based on Stranger in Moscow. The track Carnival Night Zone is also a little similar to Jam, mostly when it directly lifts the horn section and glass break noise for the chorus. For smaller details, the Launch Base Zone tracks, as well as Miniboss and Knuckles’ Theme both have samples of MJ going “Whoo! Come On!” in the music.

[@fiafiaaaa]

Not sure if you want to just do official stuff for the time being but I 100% recommend checking out some tracks from the fan-composed Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles Alternate OSTs, created with the idea of replacing the original songs. They're awesome. Sonic 3 Alternate Playlist: kzbin.info/aero/PLXcvMfBPRYD4ESFqpsWQ1QWHwiJ4Js6OU (I recommend Ice Cap and Marble Garden) Sonic & Knuckles Alternate Playlist: kzbin.info/aero/PLV8We5uA-hS8l4d1lYcH8iAiqU7KhoePz (I recommend Flying Battery and Doomsday Zone)

[@Stupid_side_of_YT]

I suggest to listen to all of the classic sonic games ost! Btw the music isn't 8 bit they are 16 bit :)

[@yonaguy6978]

Something about using those stretching launch pad and hyper sonic's air dash is a nice way to mess with physics

[@oimenamesrick]

Silly thing about the Prototype Act 1! The remastered here really makes it sounds like there's even less of a difference between it and Act 2, because the percussion was different, "softer" even in the original. Gave a sense of constant "momentum", to reflect how the act begins constantly making your way down the slopes until you find yourself descending an icy cave! Then Act 2's difference in the drums are "bouncy" in comparison hence the slowing down a bit, and this is where they're really prominent! Also being higher like you pointed out, a big thing about this act is aiming for the higher route to enjoy it most! The prototype version of Ice Cap Zone's songs are thought to be a remix of a song called "Crystal Egg Zone" from the 8-bit version of Sonic 2. While MJ's final songs for this zone are so iconic to us! It's safe to say Ice Cap has the least differing songs between acts because all the other zones definitely have more variation, like the other MJ zones Carnival Night (Zone 4) and Launch Base (Zone 6)! Only Angel Island (Zone 1) probably can't be tied to an MJ song, as I've seen mixes of his songs with Hydrocity (Zone 2) and Marble Garden (Zone 3) zones too! Although never official as the composer pre-MJ kept these songs unlike the final 3! YOU ARE AWESOME BTW TYSM FOR EVERYTHING

[@calleha01]

yeah the "remastered" percussion for act 1 is just wrong. act 1 is clearly not supposed to have a snare drum. which is probably why she thought it sounded like it sped up or something. the beat just sounds strange when you add a snare drum to it for no reason, because it's supposed to sound like a soft jazz beat almost. the only other difference between the two acts is the bassline

[@segafan2437]

real hard to sit still with Icecap playing.

[@xXthevenomousXx]

Losing the MJ versions in Origins was a huge downgrade unfortunately. Maybe those tracks could be good with more time in the oven, but not as they are now.

[@ThisisTheUltimate]

I actually like most of the November 1993 Prototype songs over the final 1994 MJ songs tbh (especially Carnival Night, both Prototype acts are amazing, much more energetic and amazing than the slow paced circus theme from the final version), so it wouldn't be a downgrade if they just used that version, it would be an UPGRADE in the other zones (excluding Ice Cap, which I do prefer Hard Times), however, we got the remixes we got, which I would not only consider weaker than the Prototype versions, but weaker than the final 1994 versions too, so yeah, it ended up being a downgrade

[@xXthevenomousXx]

@ThisisTheUltimate Maybe it's just nostalgia, but I tend to prefer the MJ versions overall. Though I do agree that the 1993 versions of the prototypes are superior, so it wouldn't have been nearly as much of a downgrade (for me personally) if we just got those. Edit: Actually, I do like the Launch Base prototype a bit more, so there's that.

[@ThisisTheUltimate]

@@xXthevenomousXx I definetly understand, however, I can't deny how much I love Proto Carnival Night Act 1 & 2, it made me just smile from start to finish the first time I've heared, much more than the final version

[@calleha01]

@@ThisisTheUltimate I feel like it's quite clear cut for Carnival Night and IceCap which version is better. But Launch Base is amazing in both the prototype and the final release. I can't decide which one to use when I play the game so I tend to go with final release for sonic and tails, and the prototype when playing as knuckles

[@Sebastian-uwu]

Hey, how about the character island themes from Sonic Frontiers? And I'd also love Kronos Island Movements 1 to 7, Ares Island Movements 1 to 7, and Chaos Island Movements 1 to 7 because they're all beautiful imo.

[@spooderman320]

The classic Sonic games are 16-bit not 8-bit

[@gazzagog]

I can beatbox Ice Cap theme

[@tek3576]

Huh, thought 3D blast was getting the spotlight

[@RedTygon]

Copyrights suck don't they? >

[@RockRuff-nz4ze]

You know i know your thing is tl react to music but maybe oke day you can react to the sonic cutscenes from the game to understand more of the lore like sonic and the black knight or sonic unleashed but that is just a thought amazing videos by the way

[@jamiewilliamson9829]

At 23:45 - 8-bit? The Mega Drive or SEGA Genesis in North America, is a 16-bit system and it used and FM soundchip, the YM2612, produced by Yamaha.

[@ZorDonofDoom]

@@jamiewilliamson9829 learning something new! I was very unfamiliar with the difference so I used 8-bit as a general blanket term for “retro-sounding”. Will definitely look this up

[@calleha01]

actually it uses two soundchips, the FM chip and the one from the 8-bit master system, so it's technically not wrong to call the music at least partly 8-bit. either way, describing sound as 8-bit or 16-bit is not really meaningful, as these terms have nothing to do with audio. The Mega Drive is capable of playing straight up recordings of live music if you encode it correctly

[@jamiewilliamson9829]

@calleha01 That is all true. But there's also games that only use the YM2612. This of course isn't one of them.

[@Crispychips343]

You should listen to the sonic remix album which contains remixes of the sonic cd soundtrack

[@oimenamesrick]

@@Crispychips343 She did! If you're thinking about tracks like "Techno Power Mix", it was all on a Sonic CD appreciation stream!

[@sonicheroofspeed9059]

Listen to Werehog Battle Theme!!!!!!

[@bardhi09]

No, the situation with Sonic 3's soundtrack is much more complex In a Huffington Post article it was revealed that MJ and his team originally composed 41 tracks for the whole game(which was split into Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles) But by the time the game came put only 10 of those tracks made it in the final game which are: Knuckles theme Sonic 3 version Miniboss theme Sonic 3 version Carnival Night act 1 Carnival Night act 2 Ice Cap act 1 Ice Cap act 2 Lainch Base act 1 Launch Base act 2 Sonic 3 competition select theme Sonic 3 ending theme IMO Sega replaced much of the soundtrack with new original compositions for the final game back then because of the MJ allegations but couldn't replace them all properly so some of the work MJ team did remained in the final game. You can also kinda notice thus on some other tracks like Azure Lake which were composed by an uncredited Japanese composer yet sounds suspiciously similar to Michael Jackson's song Black or White