Zwift Camp: Baseline Is WAY MORE IMPORTANT Than You Think

[@RideWithGerben]

There you go! We are on the same page on this one. :D

[@RoadtoA]

@@RideWithGerben 🤜🤛

[@aquicktake]

Thanks for diving into this as I was debating to do it or not.

[@RoadtoA]

Thanks!

[@PatrickLino]

The sole purpose of these workouts is for Zwift to collect your metrics to give you a race score. Even if you don't race at all. It's total data mining. I'm not upset at Zwift since I do race, but clearly there's an incentive.

[@RoadtoA]

@@PatrickLino Yup! But if there wasn't an incentive, noone would participate. This is smart on their part.

[@phillipwhitaker2149]

Super interesting, and you are probably right on the 'secret' agenda. Racing scores is a bit of a mess atm so I am all for them getting better data to improve it

[@RoadtoA]

@@phillipwhitaker2149 the only thing that would be even better is if they did this in September before they released the racing score. But then again, not everyone was back riding online at the time so maybe this is correct!

[@MrLootshoot]

I saw Base Camp and thought the same thing. It's so obvious sandbaggers will avoid like the plague...🤷‍♂

[@RoadtoA]

@@MrLootshoot I think there's nothing they can do about people deliberately tanking their score. But this might help with the others.

[@MrLootshoot]

@@RoadtoA agreed👍

[@MaximilianSterlingTv]

I do like the idea of Zwift camp baseline. I did skip one of the recoveries for the first workout though. I wanted a green jersey and the recovery finished after the segment. Hope that doesnt tank me.

[@RoadtoA]

You need to complete the full workout in order to get the report/pass the program, including the recoveries.

[@MaximilianSterlingTv]

@@RoadtoA Having double checked i have been credited with completing the workout so will update you come the end of it. But potentially they may have implemented the Zwift acadamy style where you must complete 75% of the workout to be counted.

[@RoadtoA]

@@MaximilianSterlingTv Awesome!

[@petecampbellzwift]

I thought the same thing when it was introduced. But they have said publicly that they are not going to lean so heavily on 30 second power going forward.

[@RoadtoA]

When they have the data for sprint, anaerobic and short aerobic efforts that can model seeding system that's better than a cold beer on a hot day. I would imagine it is opportunity for them to fox the seeding in the short term and improve it coming forward.

[@percyveer2355]

@@RoadtoA they have that. they have millions of races and the data across different levels of cycling to be able to create a fair system. they have failed.

[@talonlan]

I did the first baseline yesterday it had me doing sprints of 4-500w I had to take it off erg so I could do an actual sprint.

[@RoadtoA]

@@talonlan you mean that you went harder? If so, not sure that was a great idea, you aren't supposed to go all-out in the first workout (to get the benefits submaximal intervals are perfectly good). I mean it won't hurt you but you probably fatigued yourself unnecessarily.:)

[@talonlan]

@@RoadtoA Well it said towards the end this is meant to be an all out effort which for me is 1200+ watts so didn't really seem like sprint training if doing 500 watts. I just turned off ERG 5 seconds before the sprints then back on after.

[@deadlift8551]

It obviously depends on the rider and if you are fast or slow twitch. My intervals (which like yours are based on your ftp) were higher at a max of 630watts - my max sprint pwr is only 900 watts though - and that’s rare. So for me those 20sec efforts worked pretty well. Although I’m going to try it again when my very chesty cough has gone

[@hllamasiv]

@@talonlanthe same thing happened to me and I didn’t get a star because my power was too high… great “sprint” workout lol

[@talonlan]

@@hllamasiv I keep hearing about these stars, what are they I haven't seen one I think

[@JordiRiuPopRiu]

I from the Zwift academy stopped doing the 2 races that were in the program. I think they were not going to give results and that's how it was.

[@randyleach5707]

I do not believe that the "endurance test" of elevation evaluation actually measures endurance. I believe it measures ones ability to climb, rcoast downhill then ride a flat course. I think they should have selected the big ring or sugar cookie and make everyone ride with no draft.

[@RoadtoA]

Fantastic point, 100% agree. I was wondering if I should mention it but then decided it is not that important. It is definitely not an endurance test.

[@E.M.B.R]

@@RoadtoA The only part they are really paying attention to in the week 6 "test" is the Grade itself. The rest of it is just a cooldown ride to complete the stage. On a similar note, the only part they really hone in on from week 2 are the two 15-second unbounded intervals and the only part that's really important in week 4 are the two unbounded 60-second intervals. They are doing everything they can in those tests to just give you enough to pre-work to be primed for the efforts and very well rested going into them. In something like the more recent Zwift Academy, the rest of the workouts were trying to pre-fatigue you or were otherwise measuring resilience and recovery but Baseline is setup for well-rested, go all-in efforts.

[@RoadtoA]

@@E.M.B.R yep!

[@hammerhouse153]

I bit of fun for us mere mortals.....

[@RoadtoA]

@@hammerhouse153 right!

[@E.M.B.R]

The very day Baseline came out, I made the joke that it was a trap for ZRS metrics . . . and it's a funny(ish) joke, but I don't think it's the real purpose. The all-out, unbounded test intervals in Baseline are 15 second, 60 second, and The Grade (~10 to ~20 minute). 15 second is not likely to be a metric in ZRS. They have already realized the error of 30-second in the ZRS algorithm and have announced its removal. Adding in 15 second would not only be repeating that error . . .but doubling down on it. I don't see it happening. 1 minute is plausible as a metric for the algorithm as, on flat courses, it is one of the highest predictors of success. 2-5 minute would be more broadly useful however for less than flat to quite hilly courses. Separately, Zwift already have as many 15 second and 1 minute maximums as they might want from race efforts. These are the type of short durations you will easily max out in any given race. The only unbounded, maximal test effort in Camp Baseline that could be marginally useful for them in terms of data is the last test up the Grade with 10-20 minute maximal effort. Extra data here could be useful as a short 30-ish minute race won't regularly elicit these types of maximal longer duration efforts, but they've got plenty of Grade attempts in hand already. They don't need Baseline for that. Speaking of which, Baseline is opt-in and I suspect less than 20% (probably a number even lower) of the user base will go through and complete it. This isn't to say that you might not set some PBs while doing the unbounded efforts in Baseline that could affect your ZRS score - I just don't buy into it being the primary reason Zwift are doing it. I think the more likely goal is to give a soft, beginner style on-ramp to expose more people into the workout system. Zwift wants more people, more active, more often . . . on Zwift. Getting folks comfortable with the workout system and introducing a little AI reporting helps with that. As do their new 3rd party partnerships. Extra ZRS data is a secondary bonus outcome at most here.

[@RoadtoA]

I see your point, here's my take: Even though for the short durations it tests 15s and 1 minute, it doesn't mean the seeding system needs to use those exact metrics. In fact, these three metrics are the ones that are essential for the power/duration regression model to work (ideally you would want 5 min max on top of that but it's fine). The key here is those three metrics give them your unique relationship between max power, anaerobic and aerobic systems. So what that means, is short term, they can model your 30s max and 10 minute max to feed the current system, but more importantly, create a seeding system in the future that's based on your full power/duration curve.

[@Funkmasterors]

How does it work ? I only See one workout each week.

[@RoadtoA]

@@Funkmasterors yes, the program is 6 weeks long - each week one workout

[@Funkmasterors]

@ and after the six weeks some Special workouts to work on my Problems ?

[@RoadtoA]

@ correct

[@percyveer2355]

there will be some degree of this baseline feeding into the zrs, but they have this information already, they have just messed up massively. the zrs algorithm is simply wrong. it currently massively favours 30second power, which is meaningless in most races.