SO I have a newly formed opinion on this from various sources and I think it'll be seen soon enough in many ways. VO2 max is about heart max effort (kinda like lifting heavy and maxing out a muscle). So sprinting max effort = more VO2 max focussed. WHEREAS, the endurance based is correlated because frequent lifting, sub-optimally but frequent, will still impact VO2 max. Endurance is more about the cellular metabolism and aerobic respiration so yeah, they are connected to each other (people will high Vo2 max can have good endurance and vice versa). I do think you can bring one up directly. It will also bring one up, but the workload looks different, intervals vs. long hours of jogging (check out this video for an idea of what I'm talking about) kzbin.info/www/bejne/jaCqnIt_ideEd68

Couple different ways. just the classic "let me wearable tell me what it is", then I also used the various formulas online, like the 220-age. And actually what I preferred was the "talk test". When I got my VO2 max tested, it turns out I was more or less in the range with all types.

Thanks for the reply! I have been using fatmax from my vo2max test. For me, that was 107BPM with an AT of 135 and vo2max of 174. I've seen a jump from 37 to 43VO2max just working in fatmax for a few months. It seems to have stalled, so now I'm looking to add anaerobic threshold training and some Vo2 4X4, but I need to go slowly, my recovery isn't great yet

yeah I hear that. some great points here Edwin. That is correct, indeed you misheard or perhaps (and this is probably the case) I wasn't clear. The first year I did the 80/20 protocol. approximately 4 hours per week. After that I was doing between 15km-20km per week for the second year. So I fail under your parameters. So here is my retort. 1 - if you are insulted by what I say, let me say you may consider yourself an exception to balancing all these things, not the rule. 2 - This DID NOT include my strength and mobility training. This was purely cardio. I dedicate 5 hours a week to strength and mobility currently. Do you also do this? As for the rest of it. It is all about finding what works for you, not making up rules. You seem to have found what works for you, kudos. So what advice can you offer people here beyond "do more"? Where can people improve? p.s. I don't believe in the "undo smoking" sentiment. There is no 'undoing' of anything.

@@becomingresilientwithJustin sorry, I wasn't saying I was insulted. Merely hyperbole to emphasise a point. From your tone it's clear I upset you and I'm sorry for that. If you want to get better cardio results, 20km a week is barely enough to maintain what gains you've made. And your results bear that out. No one said you have to train a certain way or do certain things. But if you want to improve your aerobic fitness, you need to train at a level that does that. It's the same as eating your maintenance calories and complaining about not losing/gaining weight. Only you set your goal to gain/lose/maintain. My point is only, to use an equivalency, if you said you wanted to lose weight, but you kept eating daily deep dish pizza and a tub of ice cream, people might wonder why you're surprised you got the results you got. As for me, I'm currently running 100km a week and spent family time stretching or I'll throw around a few dumbells in front of the tv. I'm happy with where I'm at, and making gains to be where I want. I don't always train at this level. If I'm just doing maintenance I go for a few runs a week like you did. Nothing at all wrong with that.

@@edwin5419 nah man, no insult taken here. apologies if my tone was strong. you sound like you have it balanced. ultimately, I have found that when we say "cardio results", I'm not interested anymore with running long distances at a certain pace. I just want health for the long term. So to respond to your point about deep dish and wanted to lose weight, I'm really looking at 2 metrics: vo2 max and resting heart rate. And feeling capable too. 3 metrics. Getting them all met with my current training (which is also inspired by science) So i feel great. 100km a week?!?! You definitely are not the normal average Joe out there. well done sir!

@@becomingresilientwithJustin good to hear you're making progress to your goals. Keep fighting the good fight.

nope. My accent is not normal for where I come from. I have traveled a lot and I now live in the US

There's another test called the Rockport Walking Test - less demanding than the Cooper Test.

@@evanhadkins5532 awesome, thank you. will check these out!

@@becomingresilientwithJustin hope it's useful

You underestimate my stupidity sir! :D nah, I have an issue with out-thinking a plan of action, so I decided to just do something for a year and see what happens. I know the video is a little scatter brained, I did the 80/20 method and just wanted to try see what would happen. Thanks to this experience, and the comments to this video, I'm more into HIIT and the Norwegian stuff than ever. What have you found?

@@becomingresilientwithJustin Ha that’s great. Well you tried everything, and I find everything is good. Much like weightlifting, mixing it up bears the best results, it’s just a matter proportion and limits. I’m older, ex competitive middle distance runner, and I do believe a change in priorities has been very helpful. A ton of Zone 2, but definitely lots of balance mobility lifting etc and 4x4 Zone 5 at least once a week. Scheduled to appear at age 70 soon and never felt better or more fit. Great luck to you!

Done

Yoooo, I think the biggest issue here is to relate healthy cardio to people who aren't bought into cardio. What is the "gateway drug" to get started? 100km a week? That isn't something a lot of people can do, just based on time commits. Let alone discussing energy or passion. What would be the beginning for people to get hooked on cardio in your opinion?

@@becomingresilientwithJustin nice to hear back from you. 1st step is slowly building volume or time per week to a decent ish level. 60km a wk needs to be the minimum to really see the 80/20 style running with zone2 focus start to really flourish. Most people can find 30min 2x a day thats 8hrs a wk with a longrun on the Sunday early while the family sleeps etc. Beauty of accruing volume is the advantage of the 'Tanda Predictor'. The volume & pace you run in your 8wk lead up the marathon can predict it extremely accurately. Anyway, happy running. Cheers

Maybe I'll start running when my family is asleep, so they won't see me struggling! ;)

lol, I would agree in theory, but based on some of the pro's in these comments, I would say the cost-benefit for slow runs is 8-10 hours a week/ 100-120kms a week for 3 years to see adaptations, or else you seem to wasting time. That sounds like a bad idea. What recommendations would you make for people getting started?

@humarnitarkamkd, you are right, this video is not advice, it is my journey and my exploration, and it definitely ain't for runners, read the comments. I ain't claiming i am the authority. I also have apologized for not being clear on EXACTLY wtf I used as protocols (coz I don't care about being exact like that, that isn't the point, the point is finding what works for you) this video was about longevity and what I wanted was a higher vo2 max. Which isn't universal across all sports. I built it up with the assault bike. I never claimed to run 5km in 20 mins, don't be a troll and say that crap. I used the 80/20 method. I researched Maffetone, Chris Hinshaw, experimented with Threshold training, and eventually settled on assault bike training coz of the low impact on my knees. Norwegian 4x4 protocol was what I preferred but yeah 1:1 ratio for sprinting. Vo2 max tested in the 50s, can't run 5km in 20 mins and don't care to. Find what you prefer and stick to it. And the next time you wanna troll, get your facts straight man.

I dunno, it's a sweaty commitment. Developing love for cardio is a time-consuming affair. Any suggestions for non-boring cardio?

WOooooo

yeah, I have heard both. The study I discussed puts it at 1-1 in terms of rest to work intervals, Rhoda says 3 mins rest, others have said the same protocol for 4 mins. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess it depends who you listen to. What would you say would be the big difference between choosing 4 mins or 3 mins as your rest interval?

@@becomingresilientwithJustin Thanks! I am no expert, just going with my original source.

Hey @MichaelMiddletonTBH, thanks for such a nice and encouraging response, you totally made my day. This program you are on sounds like a good one, you are making great progress here! Congrats on the 5k and 10k times!! Outstanding! Regarding your question, I found that the garmin was FAR more accurate than the apple watch in terms of guess-timating my vo2 max. I think they use a modification of the Cooper test that I mentioned because they require you to run for at least 10 mins to get a reading, and it has to be tracked by GPS, can't be on a treadmill. So they measure time and distance, makes me think they take that and add in some heart rate math, and viola, vo2 estimate. Apple watch (especially since I use an app called Athlytic) is wayyy under. Could be good for motivation?

lawl, right? yeah, I was mixing my goals and measurements a lot. I wanted a faster 5km time that 32 mins. Especially for all the time in put in. In the end, I dropped the goal of a faster 5km time and went straight for the health goal of higher v02 max. Should've been focussed on that. I can tell you that in 3 years, it wen't from 46 in the first year, to 48 in the second year, and then 49 at the beginning of the 3rd, then I got the proper test done and was 51. But the difference between a hobby-ist like me and a pro athlete is like 20 points of v02 max, it's insane!

hey @davidlyness, appreciate your comment, although I would respectfully disagree. When considering which could impact health MORE? I would say all the data suggest vo2 max. When considering time and effort inputs? Vo2 max can be a better investment. Especially when you look at all the endurance people in the comments here and online, they invest HOURS every week. Time I don't have. But I take your point. If one were more interested in increasing mitochondrial efficacy and aerobic respiration, then the more suitable for the specific case would be zone 2. Needs will dictate the training, as will sports specific needs too. However, can we say in general that vo2 max efforts can improve people's health and longevity more so? and that it is an easier habit to start up? I believe so. What would you say to a recommendation for health and longevity?

yo @OlieSimpson. I agree. In the beginning, I didn't know that vo2 max wasn't really impacted by zone 2. When you listen to recommendations, people say it is, and I suppose to a degree, it can influence vo2 max, but indirectly. But I didn't mention vo2 max as a goal. I just started with zone 2 coz experts say that is where you build your foundation. Second, the recommendation is (as per Attia) is that zone 2 is done on a piece of equipment where you can monitor and regulate effort, not running. And online people talk about it as thought the time and distance doesn't matter, so long as you stay in zone 2, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I was very unsure how to proceed. As per people in the comments, and online, it seems that less than 3 years of 8 hours a week and one is wasting one's time invest in zone 2. For that alone I would say "f*ck it, no thanks". What would your recommendation be to people out there who want to invest in their health?

🤣

Wrong. All that matters is the differential gain, so it doesn't matter what is used to measure, as long as the same method is used. There have also been tests that show the Garmin V02 measurement is quite accurate.

@@st4331 i got your point , but you taliking about improvement of a metric X - First you evaluate in long term bc of variability , in this case even golden standard have a variability (less but have) . Then.. is accurate? based on calculations i doubt (never see this study you mention) .

@@diegocesar9699 I think it was on the running channel. They took VO2 measurements on Gamin then did lab tests. Garmin wasn't perfect but was surprising close. But the key for me is just having a base reading and seeing improvement. Whether you get 50 on Garmin or 52 in the lab, a 4 point improvement is a 54 point improvement

@@st4331 i got your point, But this is not a study so ok.

@diegocesar9699 did you watch the video? I got my vo2 max tested via metabolic assessment. I used the garmin watch as a "guess-timate" before I decided I need to be more precise with the vo2 max. AND this wasn't an experiment, more an experience. Want a study? Find the channels that do this. This was just me sharing my experience and I'll be the first to admit it wasn't a perfect experience, you are correct, loads of flaws. How would you have set this up so that it would be more accurate? What recommendations do you think are best for people starting off?

thats fair.

🙌👏 great advice

Speedy , well deserved, it takes work and you have obviously put the work in .

I completely disagree. There's tons of evidence that zone 2 moves the needle a lot. It took my V02 from 44 to 51 last year, I smashed my 5K PB with a 21.13, and then did my first 50K Ultra and came first in my age group (over 60). My son hated running until I introduced him to Z2 training. Now he loves it and last month did his first half marathon in 1hr 28m, all on Z2 training. I have now introduced one harder session into my training each week, as I'm targeting a sub 20m 5K, as well as another 50K Ultra this summer.

Congrats on quitting to you too! I have not checked if it had an permanent damage 😳 although you got me worried now! Yeah, the systems around these bad habits are an issue. I used to smoke, drink and take drugs, now I'm so health-minded that people can't imagine me like this. I guess it is part of the growth. How did you quit? and are you more health-minded now?

@@becomingresilientwithJustin i've become a gym/health-nut and did quit cold turkey. I was a social smoker, did enjoy smoking, even the taste of it, but I never felt once any sort of craving after quitting. Same with alcohol, like the taste of it, the buzz, but can live without it. Too busy with training.

totally agree, appreciate this point! I think I am more aligned with general fitness and the transfer effect, hence my attempts are all over the board, from stationary bikes, to treadmills, from running outside to assault bikes

@polski1986 this sounds great. how much time do you normally spend doing zone 2 per week?

@pmfith love this!!

yeah, maybe watch it again, i did train it for a year. I followed the 80/20 method, doing between 2-3 hours a week of zone 2. If that isn't enough to improve my 5k times and my vo2 max (which it wasn't for me) then I agree. I am not looking to put more time in than that. Maybe you missed that? Also "didn't trained", should be "didn't train". In English, when you use an auxiliary verb in the past, you don't need to put the main verb in the past as well. You used it great in your first sentence "Did I just watch" but not "he didn't trained". How many hours does someone need to train to improve using zone 2?

Well le’s put the grammatical aspect of this discussion aside as English is not even my second language. I think you can understand me well enough without me bending over backwards. I’m not sire if condescension is helping this discussion either, perhaps I could have formulated my argument in a better way. So let’s start again; firstly by saying that your measuring protocol may not be the best. Either I misunderstood something or you wanted to improve your 5k run metric by cycling. It could have worked if you were a pro runner, but if you’re not, all the initial improvements can be only acquired from actual running. I dare to say that you can shed about 5-6 seconds/km by learning proper technique first without improving your cardio. I don’t know if you knew it, but every type of test will yield results specific to the discipline. If you’re a cyclist, you should also do your test cycling. I’m going to the lab tomorrow for a running test with a lactate curve. Last time I did that, the difference in my cycling and running VO2max was almost 7ml/kg/min. My body is way more efficient at using oxygen on a bike, running is still significantly more taxing for my cardiovascular system. Or in other words, running muscles don’t clear lactate as well yet. Now to the volume part of the equation, unfortunately 3 hours is nowhere near a high volume, like it or not most people start seeing results at about 8-10h a week with at least one session being 3-5hours long (and this still requires HIIT sessions here and there to avoid stagnation). You are likely to benefit more from well structured interval work if the time is constrained.

@@kamilkurzynowski3836 I appreciate the reply and I too will say that my trolling was not meaningful. I apologize. The measurements? you are entirely correct. cycling is not the best way to improve running times. I was not in a good area. I still tried to get in treadmill sessions, but the stationary bike was readily available, so the environment dictated that to a large degree. I wonder if I would have been as compliant if I didn't have the bike ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . Eventually I started asking myself why I care so much about 5k times other than ego. I decided vo2 max times were more important hence why I switched to sprint protocols on an assault bike (way easier to get the HR up). holy cow. In my research, I never once heard that 8-10 hours stat! That's insane! yeah, I absolutely don't have enough time for that. Happy for other people if they want to do that, but not for me. I appreciate you communicating this and thank you for the stat. Where can I learn more about this 8-10 hour stat? Is there an article or paper you recommend? I'll look into it on my own, just curious if you had anything that you refer to? Also, how much time do you put into cardio? What are your goals and what have you found to work well for you?

Before we dive into papers, I forgot to tell you that your VO2max progress was still very good, at your age you are already in steady decline which you still managed to outgrow. My 8-10 hours comes mostly from my coaches and their years of experience. I’m currently training for Iron man 70.3 and have background in endurance cycling so I’m used to 10-15h+ weeks on top of my full time job. I’ve made transition to endurance sports from BJJ which I trained 4-5 times a week, but I quit around corona when the gyms closed and never came back. So finding 10h for sport wasn’t completely new concept to me. I chose triathlon for now, mostly for a better balanced physique and balance of movement. I work on other key factors like grip strength outside of my normal regimen, by doing exercise snacks. I’ll find some papers for you, but if you think about it, it makes sense. Zone2 workout used to be called being alive, before we started to go everywhere by car, and started being sedentary. Alternatively to reading the papers you could listen to Dr. San Millan or the Norwegian Method podcast. Otherwise most of the papers I can give you are on topics of reverse periodisation, high volume and low intensity like concepts, they focus on trained athletes and use VO2max to gauge the outcome. Would that satisfy your need for research? Because I don’t think there is a paper on optimal amount of Z2 training, as such study would be impossible to construct.

I must add to this discussion, stationary bike is pure torture, I can spend the day on a real bike on the road or trail, pump track, etc. I can’t stand 20 minutes on the stationary, it may not look important but this adds to systemic fatigue, you have to manage the mental aspect. Another important aspect you’ve seem to have missed, you need to progressively overload the training increasing the volume every week and de loading every few week, it is the push and pull of challenging the body and then resting which promotes adaptation. If do the same 30 minutes every day you will be stagnant and possibly just driving yourself into burnout.

Absolutely, I would say that you should check out Mitchell Hooped (not a bodybuilder but a strongman competitor) and listen to what he says about cardio

The one you do when you get hungry instead of eating and that leaves your system so cranked up for 90min plus when you get back that the idea of food disgusts you. Ideally manage to fall asleep before the hunger comes creeping back. Diet's where it's at!

The saying you can't outrun ( cycle) a bad diet holds true from my experience . Outside of reducing your calorie intake then you really have to increase your training time volume . From personal experience , I like to cycle and if I can get to about 6hrs a week and over , 4hrs absolute minimum then my weight stabilises and I start to lose weight . Roughly roughly 600kcal an hour when cycling, so 6hrs is roughly 3600kcal a week ( not including the extra calorie burn after traing ) which if making an effort to cut calories during week I find I start to get results :)

​@@Foxtrottangoabc completely agree. Can't outwork a bad diet, or at least a diet where over consumption happens. Slay the dragon, get the rewards.

@wheelie_slow something I didn't mention is that I'm looking for things that have a transfer effect. Kinda like General Physical Preparedness, if I am doing good push ups, there is a transfer to benchpress. I was looking at it from this perspective, and I still agree with the SAID principle. No surprise, just my results from my journey. What would you say is a practice that has maximum transfer effect?

@xcskiing_universe, as a skier you are in the population with the BEST vo2 max!!! what advice would you have for people starting off?

@runnerup9786 you sound like my inner voice! Gotta learn to smell the roses or just chill with 14 min youtube video. ORRRRR you could install a video speed controller on your browser. It puts speed settings on everything. I watch everything on 2x speed, sometimes 2.5x. That's the point, responding to constructive criticism.

There is a point to all videos? 🤩

@@PoetWithPace 🤣🤣

yeah, and I think it needs clarifying that I'm not trying to be an endurance athlete (I realize with comments like these that I needed to communicate better in my video, I will improve in future videos, I'm learning). I'm just an average guy who wanted to start improving cardio. I saw amazing benefits going from nothing to something, but finding a SUSTAINABLE something is important for me. What is a sustainable habit? How do I measure these habits? So my 5k times were the beginning metric along with HR measurements, in the second year it became time spent running (and miles covered) but it proved itself unsustainable. Hence I went with vo2 max as the measurement that best represents the goal of health, then I looked at how best to achieve that goal (HIIT training) so basically that was where it evolved to. How much was I able to stick to the habits? Vo2 max stuff? super easy and my score is pretty good. 50.8 as measured in a proper assessment. Whereas the running and zone 2 stuff, I saw very little encouragement in the way of results or feelings of "this is getting easier". You asked me the question about endurance running, suggesting you know a lot on this topic. what would you recommend to someone looking to get started with a cardio habit?

@@becomingresilientwithJustin Don't worry, I've made these mistakes more times than I can count and I still do. I've had several different coaches, some of them elite (near olympic-level), and others - very accomplished runners. I've learned that experimenting has led me to the biggest breakthroughs. However, this is not to say that you shouldn't read books and listen to podcasts, just that soaking up knowledge from different sources, making sense if it and applying in the field are really different (and hard) things. I still find myself listening to podcasts I've listened before and finding gems and re-learning bits of knowledge I've forgotten or neglected. Improving your 5K time should be a matter of mostly aerobic capacity as the 5K distance is 99% aerobic in nature. Measuring your progress by looking at a VO2Max number on your watch that's calculated by some obscure algorithm makes no sense for me. While it has been proven that some fitness watch brands come surprisingly close to real VO2Max test measurements, I still wouldn't look at this number. Improving your lactate threshold is what you should be aiming before you aim at improving your VO2Max which also happens to be a less trainable physiological aspect. Also, doing base (capacity) building with only 'easy' runs is a common pitfall which I'm guilty of myself. Here's a great podcast episode that will help you avoid making these mistakes: www.listennotes.com/podcasts/performance/111-avoid-these-base-psAIW6-g_Sc/. I've found that running too easy has been unproductive for me, especially if I've been doing it for an extended period of time. Some time ago I bought a Stryd power meter and started testing my critical power and pace occasionally. This consists of a 30-minute all-out time trial. You may find more information on how to perform it here, it's quite simple : drwilloconnor.com/running-training-zones-calculator/. You don't need a power meter but you do need a chest strap in order to take an accurate heart rate reading. In fact, a chest strap or at least an accurate optical heart rate monitor such as Polar Verity Sense or the Coros Optical HRM is a must if you don't have one already! Relying on your watch's built-in HRM is something I would strongly advise you to avoid unless it's one of the latest Apple Watch models (they happen to be very accurate to anyone's surprise - check out TheQuantifiedScientist channel on KZbin for a detailed review). If you happen to be already running with Stryd, you may give coach Steve Palladino a follow on Facebook - he shares interesting stuff! To answer your last question - start running more. More regularly and more miles but increase the volume gradually. Do mostly easy runs and sometimes (once a week) run hard but not all out. Find you true zone 2 by doing the 30-minute time trial and spend a few weeks only in zone 2. I've been seeing very good progress by just increasing my zone 2 pace to the top of the zone. I was previously running at 75% of my critical power as measured by the 30-minute test and doing 110-130km per week. Now I'm running at 80% of critical power which is right at the top of my zone 2 and it has been anything but easy and I'm barely touching 100km per week. Quicker paces are now starting to feel much easier.

Hey @steven871. You are absolutely right. I was just trying to figure out with what was available to me, what was good. Unfortunately, I didn't have a nice neighborhood to run in, just stationary bikes and treadmills. So that wouldn't have been the best for my situation. Also, after this journey, I realize I don't care too much about 5k times, just that I want to be heart fit. So with that, what can I do minimally, mediumly and maximally depending on time and energy budgets. Thankfully, I feel great about all of the above and I'm doing a mix now. ALSO, I really find it hard to follow plans coz life gets in the way, so just creating the habit is the focus. Do the thing. How much time do you dedicate to cardio? How often does life derail you?