-1/-1 Counters - Failed MtG Mechanics

[@Nagol93]

Still had more success then +0/+2 counters

[@TheInsanityOfTheToilet]

Is this actually a thing? *Arcades, the Strategist would like to know your location*

[@pauljimerson8218]

Maybe Banding counters?

[@89Dienekes]

Frankenstein’s Monster from The Dark could attach +2/+0, +1/+1, or +0/+2 counters to itself. Early MTG got a bit wild with counters before WotC decided to standardize as only +1/+1 or -1/-1. Another fun one is Contagion which produced -2/-1 counters.

[@Lasagnadestroyer]

Tracking counters that have different numbers is such a nightmare.

[@keidor041]

My personal favourite is the -2/-1 counter.

[@Dyllon2012]

The thing you missed with wither is that it bypasses indestructible.

[@xeper9458]

My thoughts exactly. Makes Heroic Intervention effects null and void

[@XenithShadow]

Yes but also temporarly -x/-x effect are just better in that case (due to the aformentioned tempory stat drops being a larger number) @xeper9458 Except heroic intervention also gives hexproof and their isnt alot of -1 counter board wipes.

[@xeper9458]

@@XenithShadow Hexproof doesn't stop wither. Wither bestows the creature the ability to deal damage in the form of -1 counters, which doesn't target the recipient just like infect for example. Wither is great for wearing down creatures with big butts. If not killing something outright weakening it permanently is next best

[@XenithShadow]

@@xeper9458 Oh yeah, for some reason i thought the original post and by extension your reply was refering to spells that gave the counters. Yeah wither/infect is very good at wearing down indestructible creatures.

[@PokeMultiverse]

honestly, since they seemed to feel infect was busted (based on replacing it with toxic), id have liked to see more wither cards in this latest phyrexia set. It works nicely with proliferate and while poison damage was the main use of infect, I did like the -1/-1 counters on enemy creatures if they chose to block. It meant you could attack into a board that was clearly favoring the blocker and still get something out of it. More of a siege style of aggro where you throw enough against the wall and itll slowly crumble so you can invade the city again and hopefully they cant repair that wall fast enough to prevent you from a break through.

[@thomaspetrucka9173]

Manalogs: “Wizard tries to avoid dimes on pennies design” March of the Machine: *exists*

[@LibertyMonk]

Eh, 0/0 tokens aren't a big deal, because the die can just represent the counters. It gets messy when you're representing a dozen of them, but that's a different problem.

[@laytonjr6601]

@@LibertyMonk The blue dice indicates how many of that token are in play, with the red dice next to it indicating how many +1/+1 counters are on it. Yellow dice instead of blue indicate tokens with summoning sickness, and purple dice indicate tapped tokens. Simple!

[@Knightfall8]

heck, the last three years exist lol

[@laytonjr6601]

@@Knightfall8 Every time a creature card leaves your graveyard, create a 0/1 plant token and put a +1/+1 counter on all plants you control. This makes my method of tracking tokens extremely inefficient

[@Knightfall8]

@@laytonjr6601 agreed. I wouldn't say mtg has gone downhill overall, but design in itself has jumped multiple sharks at this point. Commander products keep pushing themes whose typical board states are painstakingly difficult to track, even for veteran players.

[@GCarssow]

I actually miss Wither. It was a cool, unique, and flavorful ability that didn't have the design balance issues around Poison Counters like Infect did.

[@Mrbananasgfan]

The biggest advantage to wither over infect is you could add wither cards to any deck and it still works. Infect cards only work with other infect cards. Putting a random infect card in a deck won't help you win if every other creature is attacking the life total. In draft having a deck of half infect and half not infect really sucked. You have to go all in with infect

[@burlyhusky4611]

I do like the "Failed MTG Mechanics" series, but I want to see the opposite, like "why +1/+1 counters are successful as" as example

[@vasylpark2149]

same reason why in every RPG self-buffing is better than debuffing an enemy. If you knock out the enemy that hard work is gone, where as for self-buffing it tends to stick around.

[@ryanwesneski5359]

People like big number, see it go up, GET REAL BIG!

[@matteorossi1172]

Well it isn't difficoult to see why having 15 creatures that have 42 dices on them is a strong effect

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@vasylpark2149 To be fair, this is only true in PvE. In PvP, both are similar in power level and which is superior depends on the situation. As an example, one of the best abilities in Pokemon is Intimidate, whose sole purpose is debuffing the enemy. Though being fair, with the pokemon example the only reason Intimidate isn't that big a deal in pve is because the game is too easy for any form of strategy to matter. There are also several RPGs in which debuff builds are by far the strongest in the game, rather than buff builds. A rather easy example is Elden Ring, where bleed/frost builds are vastly stronger than buff builds, but both buff and debuff builds are way better than doing neither.

[@vasylpark2149]

@dontmisunderstand6041 Here's what you are leaving out. Regarding intimidate, it requires you to do nothing other than show up. It's a similar complaint to Eminence. Everyone complains about Edgar and Ur-Dragon, grumbles about Arahbo and Sidar Jabari, then there is crickets for Inalla (because you have to pay for her ability. Bleed and frost require you to hit the enemy with your weapon or spell. Buffing is soulsborne games requires the activation of a skill or ability, which takes time to set up. It's why the new massacre girl is becoming very popular. All creatures get wither. It doesn't even require to attack just deal damage. Imagine if you would a creature that is like night of souls betrayal and metallic mimic except it only affects your opponents creatures. [Whenever a creature your opponent controls enters the battlefield, it enters with an additional -1/-1 counter.] Also imagine an ability opposite of wither. [Whenever this creature deals damage to a creature, it gets a +1/+1 counter] Imagine an ability that said [When this pokemon comes out it and it's teammate gets a boost to their attack by one stage]

[@johnnypoker46]

Actually the first card that mentioned -1/-1 counters was the blue Unstable Mutation from Arabian Nights, which was reprinted in Revised, Fourth and Fifth editions. Consuming Fervor from Amonkhet was red and otherwise identical.

[@AlluMan96]

Having been raised into MTG through Amonkhet, I'm a strong supporter of the -1/-1 gameplan. It was the first deck I ever played, trying to get board presence from cards like Nest of Scarabs and Hapatra and then running an artistocrats strategy to churn them into big plays with cards like Voldaren Pariah. Of all it's incarnations, I tend to like placing them as a sort of resource. Cards like Channeler Initiate ask whether you'd prefer an above curve body or a mana-dork for 3 turns. Having a card like Quillspike can turn said counters into potential value. Spinning them around enables cards like Hapatra. I certainly understand that it's basically a Rube Goldberg version of a strategy that would be much better without the mechanic, but that just makes for peak Commander shenanigans.

[@Rith9789]

I plan to make a deck that gives all my monsters undying and Persist. Sounds pretty cool, but I've noticed the game has tons of cards that exile the graveyard, and I find that really annoying.

[@AlluMan96]

​@@Rith9789 That's the unfortunate reality of playing GY strategies and the thing that will determine how much you're gonna love/hate playing them. GY hate is ubiquitous, easy to sideboard and generally potent, because it needs to be. Graveyard strategies are the very definition of "Give an inch and they'll take a mile" and without the hate-cards in place, a GY deck will actually just scam you and run with the money It does unfortunately leave alot of other strategies like Persist in the mud because of it. It's all about finding a suite of sideboard cards that deal with the various ways that a deck will mess with your GY. Passive exile like Rest in Peace and Dauhti Voidwalker require the appropriate removal, which most colours cover. Cards that on-demand dump the whole GY like Tormod's Crypt and Bojuka Bog need an escape plan like Feldon's Cane. Of course for formats like Commander or Highlander, anything you'd side in 60-card constructed you just main.

[@naimyguy1622]

now you take that back. my scorpion god deck that ive been working on for years can hear you

[@justinmorsch3208]

RESPECT THE SCORPION GOD ARISTOCRAT DECKS

[@michaelofbuhl1315]

I must see this it sounds cool

[@RoflCannon6]

I was so happy to see phyrexians come back because i was hoping it would mean more toys for Scorpion God. Then wizards proceeded to release only about 2 good cards for scorpion god.

[@juliandacosta6841]

​@@RoflCannon6it's baffling that they chose the hardest to build around, least fun half of infect to reprint.

[@jeezuhskriste5759]

This is not a failed mechanic

[@stigmaoftherose]

The new massacre girl was just printed with wither. Not the best timing imo.

[@AWESMATHEGREAT]

Yeah, someone probably lost to her in sealed...

[@yuuumtheepic4118]

I don't think he is saying that cards that use -1/-1 are inherently bad, just that it's hard to design and make impactful. Compare to how life-gain is often bad, but there are good life-gain cards

[@stigmaoftherose]

@yuuumtheepic4118 I'm just saying the timing could have been better not that it's wrong to claim its "failed." As a lot of people in limited are dealing with it right now.

[@scottlemiere2024]

@@yuuumtheepic4118 you pretty much have to have wither to make them work well.

[@jshtng78]

@@stigmaoftherose The sheer number of repeated attempts and the amount of time it's been tried over and again means that claiming it 'failed' is not too early until we have multiple staple -1/-1 cards and/or a meta eternal format -1/-1 deck.

[@DyrianLightbringer]

Everlasting Torment + Kulrath Knight = opponent doesn't get to have fun "It's better to just destroy a creature." Indestructible creatures exist. There is definitely a place for -1/-1 counters, and I'm glad they exist. I like having those options available to deal with certain threats. Also, Devoted Druid + Immaculate Magistrate + Flourishing Defenses + Umbral Mantle = infinite elves + infinite G. This combo was available within the Lorwyn to Eventide block. It's how I used to overwhelm my opponents with millions of elves.

[@jmanwild87]

it also should be noted that soul scar mage was really good because it made big beater against a red deck less of a hopeless matchup and All Will be One the enchantment interacts very favorably with counters of all types turning a big enough black sun's zenith or just a big enough board into a wincon

[@Elfangor567]

I find videos like this interesting partially because of how the high level play differed from my own casual play as a teen. I remember -1/-1 counters being quite strong because they could take out indestructible creatures. Nothing quite like getting walled by a 0/1 with indestructible. Sure, -X/-X effects worked too, but we didn't always have access to cards that did that and fit within the deck we wanted to build.

[@uncleweirdbeard86]

I designed a planescwalker based around the -1/-1 counters. It was pretty good and well balance for what standard was at the time. I even had a bit of lore for him. He was an alchemist, but I never really came up with an event that awoke his spark. I did challenge a "friend" to make 1 and play against me, but all he was willing to do was make a 0 mana planeswalker with the +1 effect "You win"

[@GhostandHorseAnimation]

I never understood why +1 and -1 had to cancel each other out. So many broken loops would be solved if they just kept their counters on

[@jonpetterle]

It's an attempt at simplification. If you had to count up all the plus and minus counters on each card and do the math constantly it would be very confusing in certain games.

[@asmithgames5926]

For -1/-1s to make sense in a set, your need lots of creatures with low power, and high toughness or indestructible.

[@VincentAlucard]

While I agree -1/-1 counters aren't great, they're far from a failed mechanic.

[@haryadisuryonoto1118]

I remember Serrated Arrows from Homelands is a powerful card, using -1/-1 counters to remove many annoying small creatures with banding, regenerate, or first strike. The winning deck 'Ernhageddon' uses some of Serrated Arrows cards.

[@stevenvollenweider5618]

It was not a powerful card but standard at that time required a percentage of your list to contain cards from every legal set. No cards from homelands would have been played if not for that requirement.

[@davidrosenberg9615]

My Scorpion God deck begs to differ. Though, I would enjoy even more support.

[@happywesley]

Nice video 😊 I would like to add something important about the mirrodin block. A lot of artifacts had the indestructible ability, that was also one of the reasons they used -1-1 counters, because that was the only way to destroy those creatures, apart from exiling, which was rarely seen back in the days.

[@anthonycannet1305]

I had a very successful deck back in amonkhet standard that used mostly amonkhet cards and focused on -1/-1 counters. Using Nest of scarabs to turn the counters into tokens to swing wide, with the token doubler from the same set Annointed Procession, and Annointer Priest to recover some life with the token strategy. I was able to use green and black cards to generate a large amount of -1 counters and then had black and white cards that would give me payoff for the -1 counters. I used the tormented champion as a mana generator and a place to put my counters if I needed them on my own creatures. I used spells that placed counters on target creatures to remove and/or weaken my opponents things while amassing a board of insect tokens and life. I once cast a splendid agony for 3 mana and gained 128 life on arena during the open beta, which was standard only. Amonkhet is still among my top favorite sets and I wish they would give us the full set back on arena, but instead we got the “remastered” set which didn’t include all of the cards I would’ve liked to have in the set…

[@DAsrada]

Meanwhile, The Scorpion God: (just got a bunch of really neat cards in Murders)

[@davidrosenberg9615]

What are you adding besides Massacre girl?

[@DAsrada]

@davidrosenberg9615 Vein Ripper for one. Snarling Gorehound which let's me tailor my draws with the help of Blowfly Infestation among others. And Massacre Girl.

[@Bored_Barbarian]

I have an invocation Scorpion God deck. Cant wait :3

[@davidrosenberg9615]

@@Bored_Barbarian Samesies!

[@darkbribe777]

Wither is a perfectly designed keyword that introduces an healthy counter to standard keywords, which in my opinion is the best kind of keyword designs. Wither counters indestructible creatures and is weak to protection. Likewise how reach (while less effective than just having flying yourself) is an answer to flying, or how first strike can counter deathtouch. I think if they handled the design powerlevel to that of giving creatures trample on top of its other effects or perhaps maybe balance it around the powerlevel of flying creatures. It would be a lot more effective. I genuinely think that its a keyword that deserves to be evergreen and I'm happy that wizard is giving it to a few cards in their newest sets.

[@jdogx211]

Their not a failure. They just don't utilize properly.

[@simplegarak]

Yeah. If anything I wish they were brought back as a way to counter/handle +1 counters.... but I think we're too far gone.

[@justinmorsch3208]

The second deck I ever made was a red black scorpion god deck focused on wither/infect. I ended up changing it to more of a aristocrat-style skullclamp deck where you would put -1/-1 counters on your own or opponents’ 1/1 creatures to draw cards off of scorpion gods effect. As you mentioned, it doesn’t work well as a form of removal, given that the usual rate for a -1/-1 counter costs about 3 mana. It also doesn’t work well just trying to shrink opponents creature to make them less threatening since it takes lots of mana to do so and outright removal would be better. It also suffers from one critical flaw: it is much faster and easier for your opponents to put +1/+1 counters on their creatures than it is for you to do the same but with -1/-1 counters. This means -1/-1 counters can’t be viably used as a “shrinking” focused deck against most decks. However, using them to kill 1/1 creatures in an aristocrat style based deck is massively powerful. Soul snuffers (4 mana to put one -1/-1 counter on every creature) works well with 1/1 creatures and scorpion gods effect to draw massive amounts of cards easily. Combo with blowfly infestation, nest of scarabs, and zuluport to infinitely kill 1/1 insects and drain your opponents. Very fun, very unique deck IMO and I love playing it. Overall, -1/-1 counters are a “failed mechanic” because they’re not great at shrinking opponents creatures given their slow rate of application, are outpaced by +1/+1 counters, but are incredible for combos. I love the archetype and look forward to new cards bringing them back in every set. If anyone wants my scorpion god deck list, I can add it to the comments as well

[@Hakaze]

As long as you have enough effects that make counters, it works well, and it is easier to spew out a handfull of counters each turn, thant to play similare amounts of removal. Cards that let you move counters around is allso superstrong, letting you do onesided boardwipes and stopping a lot of decks to get of the ground with dorks and utility creatures. Counters is only bad against huge creatures, in the same way that red decks strugle to remove them as well

[@TKDB13]

I get the feeling -1/-1 counters would probably have more legs as a mechanic if they had been more central to removal design from earlier in MtG's life. Only really being introduced in Shadowmoor means they were being worked into a game that already had well over a decade of precedent for hard removal being the norm, leading to all the issues described here. As a game mechanic in a vacuum, they have a lot of potential, but they aren't well suited to the existing mechanical ecosystem they were trying to add them into.

[@jsum33]

Skinrender can still kill an X/3 with Indestructible. So, there's that, I guess.

[@evilagram]

I would really like a "troublesome mechanics" or "brilliant mechanics" videos in addition to the failures

[@dcdids2011]

I wonder if something like this could be a good -1/-1 ability: Leech x (Whenever an opponent casts their first non-creature spell each turn, they lose x life. Whenever a creature enters the batlefield, if its not under your control, you may pay x life for it to enter with x -1/-1 counters on it.) The idea is to limit the amount of damage and -1/-1 counters the ability can deal by giving it a fixed x amount. I realized that a passive -1/-1 counter application on ETB could be a problem, so I thought making the leech ability also drain the user to give it a price to pay for such an effect.

[@TsujiCross]

Just as a side note, Wither has recently showed up in Massacre Girl, Known Killer from Murders at Karlov Manor set. She gives all your creatures Wither and also has a triggered ability to draw you a card whenever an opponent’s creature dies by having its toughness reduced to 0 or less

[@mooninites755]

Calling this a "failed mechanic" when it is more accurately under-supported mechanic seems irresponsible compared to plethora of other mechanics that are truly poorly designed

[@drakengarfinkel3133]

I would say that -1/-1 counters are fundamentally harder to design around because they kill creatures. Once that is the case you have a much more limited design space. There are several A+B or A+B+C combos with -1/-1 counters that would just never be printed with +1/+1 counters because WOTC just knows better

[@adenthepoet6910]

I would like to remind people that when WotC makes sets they on average do so with limited in mind. Furthermore they did pretty much 1 and a half blocks of direct-1/-1 counters and a few more sets that weren't. In the end -1/-1 counters fails because not only its more situational than +1/+1 counters but thus far they don't have good impact according to player feedback on limited (see Amonkhet). It is fine to like -1/-1 counters but as a mechanic that pretty much most mechanics are made for and designed with limited in mind, They are a failed mechanic.

[@adenthepoet6910]

And "but I like it for my combo/edh deck" again mechanics on average are made with limited in mind. Mutate is relatively loved but wotc pretty much doesn't want to do it again. Limited on non-reprint and/or EDH decks is core reason why mechanics do and do not show up.

[@catcryt1765]

i love your failed mtg mechanic vids!!! i love making custom commanders around the mechanics

[@rajamicitrenti1374]

IIRC, +1/+1 Counters and -1/-1 Counters removing each other was something that was added in the M10 rules revamp, meaning it was introduced a year after Shadowmoor and Eventide were released.

[@asteros6387]

mechanics relating to -1/-1 counters just arent evergreen, so they dont appear in every set, i don't think its fair at all to call them failed since we still get them decently often in standard sets

[@chainsawyoars]

One of my favorite enchantments ever has to deal with the subject of this video. Everlasting Torment 2 b/r hybrid Players can't gain life All sources of damage are dealt as though they had wither. It's symmetrical, but makes everyone hate you. And the name/artwork is incredible.

[@chainsawyoars]

Also, I believe it says damage can't be prevented

[@101arg101]

Creatures CAN have both + and - counters on them at the same time. Game state will check if both are present and remove them, but if a creature is also marked with lethal damage at the same state, then a creature with either persist or undying WON’T come back.

[@willowparker-ct3pq]

Just because there aren’t really decks built around -1/-1 counters (other than persist/undying combos) doesn’t mean it’s a failed mechanic. It’s just not a build-around-me mechanic. That’s ok, not every mechanic needs to be built around to be successful. -1/-1 counters show up from time to time and work perfectly fine for what they are.

[@fernandobanda5734]

While I do think -1/-1 counters have been somewhat of a design failure, I agree that "This mechanic needs support and a dedicated deck" is a very Yu-Gi-Oh way of thinking, when the vast vast majority of mechanics and decks in Magic don't work that way.

[@calebperrin8270]

I think soul scar mages ability was one of the best uses of these counters. It gives the card a slight staying power that makes opponents consider it enough of a threat to target, but its not so overpowered that anyone is crying sbout it. It also gives the player the ability to deal with midtange threats that are usually just outside of reds reach.

[@iamfat6164]

Im sorry what? This mechanic wasn't so much "failed" as under utilized. Like yea they could've done more with it, but it definitely wasn't "bad"

[@fernandobanda5734]

If they did little with it because over and over it wasn't worth it, what would you call it?

[@akihitokoizumi2474]

@@fernandobanda5734 Not being creative enough is what I call it. You can have things trigger off of opponent creatures dying with -1 -1 counters on them. Things trigger off you attacking a opponent with -1 -1 counters.

[@fernandobanda5734]

@@akihitokoizumi2474 They already have triggers when a creature with -1/-1 counters dies. Build-arounds just make it worse. As for the other, mechanics that depend on your opponent having something to affect are notably awful. What if the opponent has no creatures? What if they have a 1-toughness creature? What if even if it's worth it after all the effort your opponent simply chump blocks and gets rid of your effect?

[@thek838]

@@fernandobanda5734 Toxrill is a 7 Mana card that effectively all it does is give your enemy creatures -1/-1 counters yet is amazing. Clearly you've had the luxury of never facing it. Meathook masscare is a broken boardwipe that effectively just gives all creatures -1/-1 counters. Both of these cards are consider great and argument of well what if your enemy had no creatures does not make sense and is just looking for a single way the card could be bad when most of the time it's amazingly effective. There is a reason why these cards hold value and are used give ya hint it's something to do with the -1/-1 part.

[@akihitokoizumi2474]

@@fernandobanda5734 If they have no creatures, you just attack then. If it kills a 1 toughness creature, then it is creature removal. That is like saying a counterspell is terrible if your opponent does not cast a spell. Same with having something you control trigger when your opponent draws a second card for turn is worthless if they never draw a second card in a game. Yes it would never be a tier 1 mechanic but not all have to be. Toughness matter decks can be pretty good decks.

[@user-zj4rg9kn1c]

My buddy has a shadowmoor deck that uses bloat fly infestation to accumulate counters quickly and cause a board wipe. It's a great deck and fun mechanic.

[@poohbear4821]

How are they failed? It comes up alot and is quite a good mechanic

[@jacktupp4358]

-1/-1 counters found their home in EDH with Hapatra. I run both Chants alongside Urborg and Yavimaya. She can get out of hand really quickly and there's plenty of combos and win cons.

[@Valegator]

One of best -1 creatures. Ammit Eternal 2B 5/5 Afflict 3 (Whenever this creature becomes blocked, defending player loses 3 life.) Whenever an opponent casts a spell, put a -1/-1 counter on Ammit Eternal. Whenever Ammit Eternal deals combat damage to a player, remove all -1/-1 counters from it. Opponent would usually lower its power to 3 or 2 rarely to 1. Then you attack without any hesitation. The opponnent has to make a choice. Block and take 3 damage, or take damage and let Ammit reset back to 5/5

[@anthonycannet1305]

They could design a set that has persist and wither in it, wither outright negates persist while persist makes creatures without wither give you their ETB trigger again

[@fernandobanda5734]

That's Shadowmoor.

[@arcanetrueblood9790]

I disagree. I think -1/ - 1 counters are a great mechanic

[@RaginKavu]

As a proud owner of both Hapatra and The Scorpion God Commander decks, I approve of this video. And I'm still waiting for a Jund commander that deals with -1/-1 counters, so that I can merge them.

[@markpratt5193]

That would be great. For now, I am using Mr. Orfeo to double a wither attack. It's working very well. So many wither spells that fit in with Jund. Also put in some big hitters as well.

[@Tera_GX]

I've been trying to design a custom commander that is poisoning everyone as a side effect of its actions, and this helps me understand why -1/-1 counters just weren't feeling too good on it. Particularly the comparison between it and removal. And proliferating them is clunky.

[@TheCheat420]

You definitely need to do a full video on Poison counters themselves.

[@Val825.]

To add a bit of nuance to the -x/-x vs straight removal debate. -x/-x allows to kill indestructible creatures more easily which depending of the meta can be a lot more useful, as in mirrodin with it's high number of indestructible creatures.

[@fernandobanda5734]

This is true, but that's a distinction much more relevant with -N/-N effects like Bile Blight and Dismember and less with -1/-1 counters which are normally too inefficient.

[@Val825.]

@@fernandobanda5734 100% truth, that's why -x/-x is evergreen while -1/-1 counters appear from time to time

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

I love the concept, I just do not have any negative dice lying around.

[@Hollowquinn]

i can understand the "until end of turn" addition to some cards especially ones that give like -5/-5 but there are cards that wouldve bin ALOT better if they didnt have that "until end of turn" line on them.

[@vasylpark2149]

I have a system where I use either a token for that card or a erasable marker to represent the stat line and then use a white die for +1/+1, a black die for -1/-1 counters and a green die for the total amount of that creature

[@panuwatbuthorntaraj2909]

The -1 /-1counter is the answers of regenerate , indestructible . When we have prolifelate it can increase to -2 ,-3 so it not fail.

[@kevinmorbidthelostcronin1984]

I happen to like the -1/-1 on my Carnifex Demons in my Planeswalker / Proliferate deck. Every card has some counter effect, even the land. Every time I proliferate, I double the mana I can produce, increase loyalty counters, and such. With the Carnifex demon, I allows use one of the two -1/-1, giving all of the other creatures a -1/-1. My creatures just happen to come with +1/+1 counters (whereby I proliferate, then give everything a -1/-1). Meanwhile, their creatures are getting much smaller, even the hexproof, shroud, indestructible, and Protection From. This also keeps my Planeswalkers safe.

[@Grimlock1979]

13:59 It's 'complement', not 'compliment'.

[@samv697]

The timing of this video with massacre girl giving things wither just makes the issues stated worse

[@doomlock6673]

I would say that -1-1 counters are a powerful and interesting mechanic, especially in commander. Not a failed mechanic in my book. I love my Hapatra deck, and it's fairly strong too.

[@rewindg8604]

I have a sick monoblack -1 counter deck, lead by varragoth. Its pretty sick for a 'failed' mechanic...

[@conductingchaos7710]

*The Scorpion god has entered the chat* Still my favorite commander deck I’ve got, the whole thing revolves around killing things with -1/-1 counters for a tone of card draw. One of my strongest decks too

[@bigburkhart2293]

I find it hard to believe you would go this entire video with no mention of Blowfly Infestation, which as a single enchantment essentially prevents your opponent from ever running 1 toughness creatures. It's a hard counter to token decks, and all you really need to kick it off is a single -1/-1 counter. Sure, it never won a grand prix, but it's still incredibly fun to watch a plague get unleashed across the board. One of my favorite decks to play for fun is a -1/-1 combo deck that randomly wraths the entire board and generates a ton of tokens.

[@universalperson]

They do counter indestructable creatures.

[@fernandobanda5734]

So do -N/-N effects, and they are cheaper, like the video explained.

[@jmanwild87]

@@fernandobanda5734 wither often meant you got a beater with them big buff for -1/-1 counters plus edh is actually in a pretty good spot with them in casual countering +1/+1 counter decks and being permanent stat downs in gummed up board states + black's sun Zenith + all will be one is really funny to see

[@Xenick289]

I would actually like a series of successful mechanics and why they work.

[@TheKillerman3333]

The biggest buff wither or infect could have is first strike or double strike. Even putting wither on instants or sorceries would have been great.

[@fernandobanda5734]

Wither on burn spells isn't as interesting as it looks. First, only red would care because other colors with removal can destroy anything regardless of toughness. Then, a red wither burn spell *would* be very effective at dealing with some medium-sized creatures that red has trouble dealing with, but it would be so good in fact that it would need to cost more. The problem is that if you're dealing with a small creature, all that upside means nothing and you would've preferred the cheaper nonpermanent damage. There's a 2R wither deal 3 damage. It's a bad Lightning Bolt/Lightning Strike and only okay against a 4+ toughness creature.

[@robertosnow3841]

This is the exact combo I've looked into! But the end of the day I find deathtouch better. Can't kill indestructable but otherwise wither has been overcosted. Tis a shame I love the mechanic.

[@TheKillerman3333]

@@fernandobanda5734 you are looking at it from an incorrect perspective. You look at it as a burn mechanism. However there are plenty of payoffs for using -1/-1 like toxril. It can be a huge battle trick too, where battling your opponent's creature is more beneficial. Sometimes you need to weaken a creature, especially in commander, instead of killing it outright. I beleive there is a counter payoff that turns off effects as well. I looked into it and there are -1/-1 counter sorcery and spells. Black sun's zenith being one of them. However an infect version would be better. There is also blowfly infestation. The mechanic may appear weak, but that is a matter of perspective. Just like life gain is a weak mechanism, on its own it is, but when there is synergy, it becomes powerful.

[@deathspadewilliams2374]

Also you could pair wither with infect because that would give you another way to be able to put out negative counters and you don't even need your opponents to have creatures to do any of the shenanigans I was explaining above you just need negative counters to be coming in

[@latinojackson9694]

I whole heartedly believe this guy mispronounces words and names on purpose

[@Toast-cc7gr]

Thing is they should have made the wither creatures bulky blockers, like 1/4 with reach and wither would actually be pretty decent, or a multi blocker with wither. The mechanic itself is fine, it's just always been implemented as either an aggro tool or a combo tool, when its more suited as a defensive tool.

[@uselesscommon7761]

Amonkhet standard had plenty of -1/-1 counters going around. People absolutely played with these cards.

[@Tava]

havent played mtg in a very long time but wither is a cool mechanic imo. turns the game in to hearthstone

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

I did really well in Amonkhet draft with green/black

[@sambojinbojin-sam6550]

I can see Midnight Banshee and Necroskitter being good for a laugh in EDH alongside a board wipe. "All your base are now mine!" 3 card, two turn combo, so not that powerful, but good for a laugh.

[@jessejro7408]

I hate that they cancel out since there is so much design space for that being a choice. Id love to be able to agathas soul cauldron a devoted druid on things.

[@TheBalthassar]

Markov Manor shows that they stopped caring about not having +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters in the same set.

[@prycenewberg3976]

I wasn't around when Whither was a mechanic, but looking at it, I think I prefer it to Infect. In fact, I'd like to see it return. It seems like a great idea that would be easier to balance. My problem with Infect is that it warps its meta. Whither seems like it could co-exist in any meta without taking over.

[@LucasTigy2]

i think wither would be a bit more interesting when combined with something like first strike, as you could swing into a 1/2 with a 1/1 and, due to damage being dealt first, the creature would become a 0/1 on a block. there are also cases of creatures that deal non-combat damage having wither being useful if you are mostly just pining creatures for 1 damage, since that now also lowers their power with a permanent reduction to their toughness

[@rsparks1104]

The only thing holding them back is that we don't shorthand them as "minus" and "plus" counters

[@jurgnobs1308]

i think wither/first strike combo could make for an interesting card. it might make you actually survive a fight against an opponent you can't 1-hit

[@coo_coo_]

i have a whole -1/-1 counter deck and it’s fire. how dare you

[@Thalarion]

-1/-1 counters are a tool, they just can't use them in sets with +1/+1 counters (most sets) Hell just this set (mom) there is a legend with wither

[@tomfisher6422]

I think the mechanic might work if the counters were given off of a trigger, Like when a creature you control dies put a -1/-1 counter on up to X creatures where X is the destroyed creature's power.

[@michaelmcphee2006]

I'm pretty sure Unstable Mutation, released in Arabian NIghts, was the first card with -1/-1 counters.

[@BuddyIsGarbage]

-1/-1 counters go hard in my Shirei edh deck.

[@roy572aggravation]

*Laughs in Yawgmoth*

[@mr.wafflesrz1137]

It would probably be busted AF if it had the right support

[@fernandobanda5734]

I can't imagine anything that would make them good. Most of the time they're the same as normal removal (because the creature would die anyway, or because the opponent has no creatures), except for when they're worse removal.

[@akihitokoizumi2474]

@@fernandobanda5734 It would have to be "At the beginning of your turn put a -1 -1 counter on up to 2 target creatures" type of effect in order to be worth costing more and maybe even add a secondary effect "At the beginning of your 2nd main phase, add manna equal to the number creatures with -1 -1 counter an opponent controls". You can change it to gain life, draw cards if a creature with the counter dies. You can mill, scry, ect. many things that can make it worth it over the temp -x -x.

[@Garl_Vinland]

My indestructible creature who regenerates would like to have a word

[@mr.wafflesrz1137]

@@Garl_Vinland You do realize -1/-1 doesn't care about regenerate or indestructible right?

[@leandroteixeira33]

@@fernandobanda5734 Repeatable effects would help a lot giving it identity. As it's weaker than normal removal, the effects could be slightly more pushed to make up for that. It could also be treated as "worse deathtouch" when talking about combat tricks (a card could give both first strike and wither, for example). Instead of treating it like a removal effect, they could design them as cards aimed at grindy, slow decks. From making a black counterspell "counter unless target opponent puts N -1-1 counters on a creature they control" to putting more "if the creature dies this turn, draw a card" on removal to compensate for the weaker values. Bombs creating with wither would also be very effective at solving some of the problems mentioned.

[@MrABK108]

I cant wait for my Hapatra deck to arrive 😂

[@opinionofmine3238]

Frankly, the only point I see to the -1/-1 and +1/+1 interaction, which seems to be at a root of a lot of design issues and limitations, is that some people would get confused tracking the two types of counters. I understand some level of memory space is important, but it's not like the two types of counters don't coexist in most formats and really it's a matter of subtracting, a skill you need to play the game (because you subtract when you lose life). Plus we're in a post-Ikoria world, a card having by design multiple distinct types of counters is already a thing, so it's not like distinguishing is a justifiable issue either. Maybe there's some obscure random card that would be negatively impacted by the rule change, but considering the unintuitive nature of the rule + the problems it brings to -1/-1 counters, I think it should be discarded.

[@TheSpiritombsableye]

This definitely wasn't a failure.

[@jmanwild87]

They're more undersupported because its not fun in limited this isn't something like phasing or rampage or banding or companion where the design was bad by being completely busted or not worth the cardboard

[@Necrotog82]

TheManalogs: -1 -1 counter is a failed mechanic Yawgmoth, Thran Physician enter the chat.

[@blindreapah]

As someone who played viscera seer melira and finks/redcap to many many modern wins I think -1/-1 mechanics are great

[@ntw3002]

Infect is definitely not a strict upgrade to wither. With allows you to do normal damage to players, while infect replaces that damage. Any deck playing Willow Elf would rather be using Scuzzback Scrapper, but almost none would want Glistener Elf. You can save yourself from lethal with Tainted Strike by converting the damage into poison counters. Infect is as parasitic as a mechanic can be. It's a downside, worse than vanilla outside the special case of its one dedicated deck. Having wither is a strict upgrade over not having it, whereas infect is instantly disqualifying for almost every deck.

[@TomAcrossAmerica]

coughcough massacre girl known killer coughcough

[@kdash2657]

*Cough* wither *cough*

[@PhantomDogman]

Wait, how someone wouldn't understand +1/+1 and -1/-1 counter interactions? With little magic knowledge, but I have more knowledge in different tcg (Yu-Gi-Oh) and I undestand the interaction like how in the was mention. Like for example creautre would have 3 +1/+1 counters which would make +3/+3 and opponent places -1/1 on that creautre - which would make +2/+2. Or that is wrong?

[@alexryu2632]

You're correct, but I think what's meant here is that a player who didn't know might assume that you keep the +1/+1's AND the -1/-1's on the creature This wouldn't usually make a difference, given a creature with 3 +1/+1 counters and a -1/-1 WOULD have a net +2/+2 of stats, BUT it would change how Proliferate and Undying/Persist interact with these mechanics: With the actual rules for how +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters interact, you can only proliferate whichever type remains, if any, and an Undying or Persisting creature can trigger again However, if we assume both types of counters remain, as some new players might, you could Proliferate the -1/-1 counter in our example to make it 3 +1/+1 counters and 2 -1/-1 counters (Net gain of +1/+1), and the Undying/Persist creature could only be reset by specifically REMOVING counters, as they would never lose their +1/+1 or -1/-1 counter via gaining the opposite counter TL;DR: You are correct! But the mechanics COULD be misinterpreted in ways that change how you play with or deal with them. Think of it like how most Yugioh players probably needed to be told that Field Spells, Equip Spells and Continuous Spells/Traps need to remain on the field to resolve their effects

[@eltrikker2019]

Spitting Dilophosaurus is the newest card i know with a -1/-1 mechanic it's from the lost caverns of ixalan. i'm trying to build a -1/-1 deck with scorpion god but i have to say it is a challange

[@anthonycannet1305]

If they brought back battles, putting -1 counters would actually be more impactful as it makes it more difficult to remove defense counters from siege battles and makes it easier to defend them when you can weaken the creatures to the point of not killing your blockers

[@fernandobanda5734]

Or you could use normal removal.

[@LevelUpLeo]

How about doing one of these on the land walk abilities?

[@beppe1922]

Needles to say, toxic in All Will Be One is just the skill poisonus under a different keyword, tough I wonder why the decision to name it differently was made.

[@RBGolbat]

17:15 we did it! We broke devoted Druid!

[@omegavulture8379]

Best counter around is the +1/+2 token from the armored thrull.

[@Dracomandriuthus]

They USED to be more relevant when Finks was played in jund as a lifegain card, but outside of that, generally, yeah, they mostly haven't seen great play

[@Garl_Vinland]

Yess… down talk the one mechanic that can hose my pillowfort deck 👹