#10MinuteTalk

In this podcast we cover our TSS turkey shell test, where we took a single shotgun/choke setup loaded with three-inch TSS number 7 shot from 10 to 100 yards in 10-yard increments. We get some great data, but the results can’t be considered conclusive. Should we do more testing? Listen in to learn what we learned.
As always, we want to hear your feedback! Let us know if there are any topics you'd like covered on the Vortex Nation™ podcast by asking us on any one of our social media platforms and using #VortexNationPodcast.
Follow Vortex Nation Podcast on Instagram:
vortexnationpodcast

[@crich1218]

Love talking turkeys!! Video Idea: Suppressors and shorter barrels are becoming more and more popular. A video on short barrel considerations regarding what cartridges are better suited, powder choices etc would be fun and relevant.

[@mccann8806]

I can see why Ryan was so prepared to answer my question about short barreled turkey gun performance the other day!

[@MrJtin69]

Damn near 40 min talk thats what im talking about baby

[@VortexOpticsUSA]

:)

[@troythalheimer160]

One of your best episodes. Got me excited about the possibility of turkey hunting. There's only one thing that you need to change, don't call this a "10-minute talk". Perhaps you could name it turkey talk.... Talking turkey. Give it its own little podcast. And for the record I just got my first shotgun in a long time, and it has a vortex optic on it.

[@VortexOpticsUSA]

Haha our 10 minute talks are kind of misleading. Glad you enjoyed it! If you get out in the turkey woods, keep us posted!

[@holeinmind]

I love this podcast. I could listen to Ryan banter all day

[@joearledge]

For penetration, My homemade lead #6 shot(not bad, but not perfect flawless spheres) penetrated 1/8" plywood with an estimated 573 FPS & 1.3 ft-lbs per pellet at 50yrds . Estimated BC of 0.01 each pellet was roughly 1.85 gr (range scrap lead) diameter roughly 0.110". I might be a mile off, but 1/8" plywood seems like a decent analog for a turkey's head and neck bones for a qualitative test.

[@gregbecker7466]

First take away is how do we Creedmoor these turkey shells? High bc wads, stick the pellets way out there, or get it within .001 of the lans?

[@strydershadow391]

Great stuff would love to see more testing done.

[@farmnewsman]

I’ve played with a lot of tts and other turkey loads and chokes out of my benelli over they years. As mentioned that choke tube is horrible for that gun. Indian creek, jebs, rhino are great chokes for the benelli with tss loads. Also as mention 10 in circle is a better way to do counts than the turkey head.

[@lyndennogler9071]

loved the episode and would live to see more. do you think #9 tss would die out quicker or longer ranges or be possibly more beneficial with it having a higher pellet count?

[@kevinkirby6511]

Love the videos! (#10mintalk) We have 7 Vortex scopes and 3 binos in our family 🤗. Ryan def get an Indian creek Black diamond Strike choke. From my research and testing with tss. penetration is the key as you stated. My testing about 4 years ago when I switched to tss with a 1997 Mossberg 835, indiancreek black diamond strike, red dot, federal tss #9's . Off sandbags, consistant 15/20 pellets in head and neck at 80! Killed bird last year at 72 yards after chasing him for 3 days! He was absolutely smoked! looked like hit with taser, locked up never flopped.

[@robertkons]

Interesting analysis, but from a hunting standpoint, the closer you can get the more fun it is. I'm going to try my recurve this year with an effective accuracy range of 10 yards. Good luck this spring!

[@KillenNReelinoutdoors]

That 50 yard target looked like my 78 yard target. 3.5” turkey ninja with the carlsons tss choke and a stoeger m3500. I wouldn’t shoot a bird that far but seeing the results was fun!

[@VortexOpticsUSA]

Absolutely this data isn't meant to give anyone a "greenlight" you know your gear and limitations best! Seeing the results was very interesting!

[@KillenNReelinoutdoors]

@@VortexOpticsUSA couldn’t agree more brother love the content btw!

[@cory5785]

Happy you chose #7...we cant use #9 in canada!!!....love the videos guys

[@toddboyer9691]

Can you do a similar talk on the 410 with TSS?

[@Bigfish1day]

I just got a M2 put a Carlson Long Beard XR choke. I don’t have an optic, shooting old school. Patterned my gun at 40, 30, 20 and 10 with Kent Diamond #4 and Federal Grand Slam #5 2 3/4” shells. 40 yards has a good pattern, 30 and 20 yards was a more dense, you can’t miss unless you’re blind. 10 yards is like shooting a slug. Definitely would need an optic for that shot. Burned thru my plywood backer like it wasn’t there. I don’t ever plan on shooting past 30 yards where I hunt but I would feel comfortable with a 50 yarder. Those TSS loads put a lot of pellets on target. I definitely would use them if I had to. You plan on trying this with other loads? Enjoyed the hell out of this 10 Minute Talk.

[@Deanbennett2053]

Thank you Ryan for taking the punishment

[@TonyYarusso]

Another option in between just a bead and a red dot is things like the TruGlo “Gobble Dot” line that are essentially front and rear open rifle sights for the vent rib. Some are adjustable and others aren’t, but even the cheap fixed version makes me feel pretty confident out to about 60 yards. (Side note: In terms of recoil, I will say that shooting TSS out of a 5-1/2 pound over/under grouse gun a bit less than pleasant, but at least it’s nice to carry!)

[@wyattgraham5711]

Have you guys ever done a realistic zoom levels for different hunting distances? I think it would be a good talking point. Maybe out to 500 yards or so.

[@VortexOpticsUSA]

Great idea! We can absolutely look into that.

[@adamturnbull6157]

Wyatt, great comment. I see a lot of new hunters over magnify.

[@wideopenyamaha]

I use the slugger sights with fiber optics. Great video keep it up

[@VortexOpticsUSA]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@TonyYarusso]

Request for a future episode: I'd really like to see someone do a reasonably thorough and scientific test of accuracy (and if you can, terminal ballistic performance) of monolithic copper slugs, comparing the performance out of a fully rifled barrel, a smoothbore with a rifled choke tube, and a plain smoothbore, at several different distances. We know there will BE a difference, but how drastic of a difference is it and at what distances do the differences become worth caring about? Are the differences beyond the effective range where you would be shooting them in the first place, or do limitations crop up much earlier? Is performance through a rifled choke at all an improvement over the smoothbore, or just a waste of time? Can a smoothbore work for close to intermediate distances, or do you really just need to go with a fully rifled barrel to bother trying at all? The reason I ask is that while historically people had the option of Forster-type slugs for smoothbore shotguns, and there are various videos comparing performance of those, but with more hunters these days wanting to hunt with lead-free projectiles, all of those are going to be a sabot type, and I haven't found anyone yet who has done even remotely useful testing of those to answer the question of what your options for shooting them are (and are not). I guess this also partially strays into whether copper slugs even work at all - what I know about copper rifle bullets is that their proper expansion behavior is pretty heavily dependent on relatively high velocities, and slugs are pretty slow, so does a copper shotgun slug even expand reliably out of any barrel?

[@Spruce-Bug]

Agreed. The Browning BXS tipped solids I had last spring didn't expand spectacularly when I tested them on some wet newspaper for a bear hunt. I decided at 50 yards was the max ethical distance because after that, they deformed but barely expand at all. I shot them out of a Mossberg 930 rifled barrel. In hindsight, i should have taken photos because you're right, there's hardly any info on them at all. Hornady CX and ECX bullets apperently use a zink copper alloy to make the copper softer, easier to expand. A soft copper slug would probably be far superior than a typical lead rifled slug, certainly a foster slug.

[@CNScale]

Have you guys ever discussed polymer tip bullets vs hollow point vs soft point

[@262fire3]

Just love wisconsin weather

[@VortexOpticsUSA]

It has its moments

[@PCRedman]

Lets hear more about experimenting woth loads and chokes

[@Leehealy-wheninthewoods]

IF you guys can play with other brands(ie., contracted branding) and tweak your choke/load combos I think this test could be much more informative at 50+yd. There are some incredible patterns out there like 400+ hits in a 10# circle at 40yd. Maybe not with 7 tss but with 9’s certainly. Also, food for thought, if you take into account that shot patterns “string” and each pellet is not impacting the target at the same moment…then I think we can do away with the “collective energy” point of data. I think after a few yards, the shot pattern is practically several hundred separate projectiles. My last critique is that lethal hit counts should probably be reserve for direct CNS hits when the turkey hit count drops below a certain number. Not sure the exact count but the “drop and flop” is given by direct cns hit. The individual pellet energy you covered is really the usable point of data. We need to remember still that each pellet may not be traveling the same speed, within certain variations. The shot string suggests the “pack leaders” are obviously moving more quickly than the rear end of the pattern since they all start within an inch or so packed in the wad together. Idk why…but I LOVE shotgun “ballistics”. We would do well as sportsman to better understand our shotguns potential and performance.

[@Spruce-Bug]

One suggestion, put some calipers on the turkey chokes because the Primos one I have measures exactly as my Mossberg Full choke.

[@Honkers716]

What about the multiple load turkey shots? The #5 copper, #6 lead & #7 TSS in 1 shell. 20ga 3" 1-1/2oz Pretty awesome shell

[@DanielBoone337]

Man 30 maybe 40 yards is my cut off but preferably inside of 25 yards is what I want. Anything past that is gambling and not something I would ever do. This is still very interesting though because it's something I've never seen before.

[@VortexOpticsUSA]

Very interesting to go out and test these kind of things! Really gives you a perspective of limitations and what your gear can do.

[@DanielBoone337]

@@VortexOpticsUSA Absolutely... Take care guys!!!

[@JackFrostTheDeerHunter]

love your videos....you sure do look like the guy on O'neill Ops, but with a wig??😅🤣

[@adamsheldon5963]

Looks like a different choke is needed for this. Muller, or Indian creek. The Carlsons heavyweight TSS choke would have preformed better than the Carlsons choke used in this test.

[@robertsebacher44]

In my 74 year experience most turkey hunting loads use pellets significantly larger than number 7. It is reversed in shotgun shells and lower numbers indicate larger pellets.

[@andrewcheff4035]

So excited to use TSS w/Carlson full. Now I gotta jump out and stretch that paper out to 50! Great show!

[@TODinWY]

FYI Butcher shop wrapping paper comes in a 36"x 1100 foot roll. It'll survive anything you're likely to be out in.

[@adamturnbull6157]

So can anyone answer what advantage if any TSS gives over the standard copper plated Fiocchi or Winchester? I feel quite comfortable with either of those out to 40. Spending $10 to 20 a box instead of $40

[@nickrosenberg8364]

If you are happy with the performance and don’t want to shoot further than 40 yards there isn’t a reason to switch. Tss shines at ranges past 40.

[@thetexasrat]

I would like to see this done with .410 - 3" - 7/8 - 9.5 TSS.

[@normhewitt5087]

What was the constriction of the choke? .665?

[@joebob4609]

7.62x39 for hunting? SST, 123 sp, 154 sp, etc. Let’s do it guys.

[@jonrosow1030]

I would love it if Ryan would explain casting bullets and polymer coated bullets for reloading

[@danzopfi8164]

Mark Great show, I have a Benelli supper black eagle 3 Where can I find the picatinny rail and the red dot that’s on your gun?

[@manhnguyen-mk4pf]

I 2nd this question.

[@VortexNation]

Super late here. Sorry about that. EGW Rail. SPARC Solar Red Dot. Thanks for listening!

[@VortexNation]

@@manhnguyen-mk4pf Super late here. Sorry about that. EGW Rail. SPARC Solar Red Dot. Thanks for listening.

[@MrJtin69]

Hope all is well

[@VortexOpticsUSA]

Thank you! Hope all is well with you.

[@scottyevens3174]

Now compare to lead loads…. LOTS of great lead loads that are effective at 50-60 at pennies on the dollar…. No doubt TSS is good but is it THAT much better….

[@scottyevens3174]

No doubt TSS is good stuff but just like tight constricted lead which you all pointed out you can certainly miss!! With 35 years of turkey hunting out here in the west the evolution of my turkey gun has come down to an 18 inch tikka 12 gauge 3 inch magnum over and under with a tight choke on one barrel and an open choke on the other so I have a choice long range or short range and as some have pointed out I imagine which choke you use makes a huge difference on how those rounds pattern. Thanks for doing all that work you guys are awesome

[@henrywes2628]

Just curious cause I am not in the know, why 7 shot instead of 4,5, or even 6? I personally would feel better out to distance with a heavier shot weight per pellet as it would maintain more energy longer.

[@nickrosenberg8364]

A tss pellet #9 weighs as much as a lead #6. Tss is much heavier than lead so you can use smaller pellets. Much like you generally use bigger size steel than you would lead.

[@fredthompson1279]

Wait ,did Mark actually let someone drill and tap the receiver of his beloved M2?

[@Richard-wz9uh]

I’m disappointed that you didn’t use #9’s, a 3 1/2” shell and a tighter choke. Your setup is a mid-range setup and you’re trying to answer the question of how far to you can ethically kill a turkey. This would be like asking how far you can ethically kill a whitetail and using a 30-06 loaded with a Nosler Partition instead of a 30-378 loaded with a Nosler AccuBond LR.

[@paulellsworth7679]

It would appear that your math is off. If an individual pellet has almost 7 ft lbs of energy at 10 yards going 1000 fps..... how could it possibly be less than 2 ftlbs of energy at 500 fps? Wouldn't it be exactly half the ft lbs of energy at exactly half the fps? Please educate me on what I'm missing....

[@outdoorsportsman]

I love the idea of setting up a shotgun for extreme range patterning. Choke tube swapping, high tech modern shot materials, wad technology, even back boring the barrels to help eliminate the disruption and turbulence the shot and cup experiences in most standard style shotguns.

[@bigbadfella]

Hurts to pay for TSS loads, hurts the turkeys even worse tho. I'm a believer.

[@user-bz8vb6rz2n]

3 1/2” or 3 “ shells

[@brenn330]

I wish I lived in a state where you can slap thunder chickens with a .22.

[@tylerparker3024]

Someone tell garand thumb this guy claimed to have shot a bird at 100 yrds with open sights on a standard pellet gun lol

[@bradbo3]

TSS is just to expensive. Plus I have ammo cans full of Win XXX.

[@keithbradley4224]

Odd question but was it raining while these shots were made?

[@VortexOpticsUSA]

Yes it was!

[@dustinshaw2419]

I killed one at 96 yards last spring with federal 3"tss threw a code black turkey in 12 gauge! Missed at 40 first 😅

[@ginasayers4834]

$25 for 20 cartridges and a .243 will kill him even farther than that for cheaper if that’s all that matters

[@TODinWY]

NOW get to the 20 gauge. 😁

[@edwardanderson6152]

Do a talk on 6.5mm x 284 Norma/win

[@chevyon37s]

The Carlson’s turkey chokes don’t do so hot with TSS. I’ve seen the same. I’ve gotten more dense patterns with a 20ga at 50yds than that setup. For that load/choke combo, anything from 45-50 is questionable, and beyond 50yds is just straight up unethical IMO. And there are some very large voids in the patterns from 50 and beyond that could cause a miss and/or non vital hit even with a properly aimed shot.

[@Unclefish97]

Daughters 1st bird 69 yards 20 gauge. Dropped it. I do not recommend this at all. Was last day , second year and 1st bird we’d seen.. Tom was spooky , walking away. She goes can I shoot. I thought there’s zero chance with a 20 gauge that far away and said sure (hadn’t ranged it, just assumed too far). Boom and it dropped right there. I had her stand next to it and put the rangefinder on them. 69 yards. I pattern my 12 and comfortable to 40. Not a recommended shot, but it can still kill at that range

[@Steven-yv2rb]

I think you are a little off to the right overall.

[@baumdiggity27]

do a 458 socom video

[@travisevertson2357]

Handgun hunting

[@eduffy4937]

All boils dowm to how much the shooter practices before the shot. A 2dollar shooter wont do well even with 1,000dollar ammo.

[@codyrivenburgh7645]

I can say for a fact 80 yards is no problem with my remington sp10....and with a big enough Tom I'd no problem take the shot and pray at 100

[@brandonh3951]

Not cool, no ethical hunter would even think about that dumb shit.

[@bryantitus6634]

I'm not terribly impressed with these patterns. They are not far off my 3" Nitro Turkey #6 patterns. And about in line with Winchester XX 3.5 2oz #5. The federal grand slam in the same spec perform better than your results. However, I'm running a full 28" barrel in my Mossberg 535 with a .670 XX-FULL factory choke and it patterns noticeably better than my buddies 535 with a 20" ported turkey barrel running the same loads with the same choke. The TSS's major benefits are that the higher density pellets allow smaller pellets to be used without losing penetration ability. #7 TSS penetrate similarly to #5 lead inside about 40 yards and beyond that range they retain velocity and energy better and begin to penetrate similarly to #4 lead. They are NOT carrying the same pure raw energy as the #4, but due to their smaller diameter they are able to push deeper as that energy is being used against a smaller amount of tissue/bone. I shoot Winchester long beard XR almost exclusively now. Per dollar, nothing compares with it's performance I my gun. I get true killing patterns out to 70 yards that will be 100% of the time killing patterns if I do my part. And likely close to 80 with 90%+ killing patterns. In recent years I have been able to get closer shots more frequently and find the woods setups both more effective and more exhilarating. For setups as such, typically mid day, I switch out the Longbeard XR for Federal 3rd degree which honestly, they are perhaps the best BALANCED load for all types of turkey hunting. Patterns inside 20 yards are noticeably wider while patterns out to about 50-55 yards are definitely adequately tight with the core of the pattern holding tight. I did some patterning of Federal Prairie Storm 3" 1 5/8oz #6 and it is an absolutely terrific turkey pattern throwing load out to about 45 yards every time in my gun. And throws forgiving patterns inside 20. The biggest 'surprise load' has been Remington Nitro Turkey 3" 1 7/8oz #6. It throws incredible patterns in a xx-full choke out to 40 yards and a bit beyond. Now, in my stoeger 3020 in 20 gauge, the heavyweight loadings are undoubtedly superior. The now discontinued Federal Heavyweight #7 are the best patterning loads I've ever run through it. Closely followed by Federal 3rd degree. Both are 1 1/2oz loads that throw devastating 50+ yard patterns. I've shot several 3" lead loads and again Longbeard XR are the best lead loads on the market. Behind them, there is nearly no difference between boxes labeled Turkey loads and those labeled copper plated buffered pheasant/heavy game loads. None of them pattern adequately to run PAST 40 yards with much confidence. I'd push the Federal Grand slams to about 45, but none else past 40 without knowingly pushing the limits. It's very interesting top to bottom in concept.

[@yarlaw]

What was wrong with turkey hunting as opposed to TSS turkey killing. I know, one has to work at it to actually communicate with a turkey. Technology is killing what used to be a fine gentleman’s endeavor.

[@yeetarmyitstimeforgoodtime8958]

Why bother wasting turkey loads at ten and twenty yards when you know they're going to devastate the target at that distance

[@tylerisbell6916]

You defeat the purpose going with 7shot tss

[@WayStedYou]

At 60 or 70 yards its total energy is worse than a 22 lr

[@Brayden11877]

10 minute of 8mm mauser

[@ginasayers4834]

…spend the $$$ you would on TSS on a good (patterned) lead load, give the extra to an organization like Turkeys for Tomorrow, call him within 40 ish yards or less, have a better hunt, quit chasing limits and FB posts…..

[@davidstephenson7194]

7 shot?? No thanks....rather have fewer/bigger pellets myself as they retain more energy at distance while the 7 shot because of their lighter mass will shed energy as they travel downrange. I would like to see a penetration test of 7's vs 5's and 6's at distance before I take a chance on small pellets. Then add in the issue of turkeys moving almost constantly and your odds of missing and or wounding a bird at long distance is too high for me to risk it. My personal longest was a 22 1/2 lb Missouri tom that hung up at 50 yds with three hens and would not come closer a 2 3/4 load of #5 Hevishot dropped him like a hammer. Several pellets hit in the sideways standing turkey in the breast and completely penetrated the wing and breast feathers and lodged in the sternum.

[@nickrosenberg8364]

Tss is heavier than lead and heavy shot ! A tss #7 weighs as much as a #5 lead . It’s also harder so it stays round and generally flys straighter

[@ginasayers4834]

Deplorable. Relevant only if killing is your only goal. How many dead hens and jakes on either side of your target. This IS NOT the essence of spring Turkey hunting and you should be ashamed for publishing it. Absolutely no reason to shoot TSS in magnum (10-12g) esp in #7. If you’re recoil sensitive then shoot 20 and under and TSS in 9 or smaller. Thumbs down

[@henrywes2628]

9 is illegal to hunt with in most states I know of, too light a load to be humane. Regardless if it's tungsten or not.

[@ginasayers4834]

Need to check your stats. KE in reasonable loads lethal farther than you should shoot. Legality? LOL, well, you probably already can guess where I’d go with that….

[@life_of_riley88]

I'm a bit baffled by the miniscule amount of energy on target with individual pellets. Typical airgun hunting is typically done with a minimum of 10-12 ft-lbs, and that's for small rodents, pest birds etc. Obviously 3+ ft-lbs is enough, but wow. . .not a lot of margin. I guess I see why turkey hunting is so darn hard.