12 Bore Flintlock Frontier Effectiveness

[@duelist1954]

I’m posting this because so many people are asking me about Hodgedons announcement on closing their Goex plant. I have no insider knowledge about this beyond the email sent to Hodgedon employees, and Hodgedon’s press release. But those documents say that Hodgedon is looking for a buyer for the Goex operation. So, let’s hope they find one.

[@alanhigh8125]

Modern in-line muzzleloaders essentially killed the market for black powder. After the fire at the Goex plant in June, Hodgedon ran the numbers and decided it wasn't profitable to refurbish and repair the plant. Swiss and Schuetzen are much more expensive, and aren't imported in sufficient quantity. My flintlocks will probably become wall hangers. I have a couple of Hawken-style percussion rifles that may fire Triple Se7en 3F. I'll have to experiment.

[@duelist1954]

@@alanhigh8125 Petro-Explo has committed to import as much Scheutzen Powder as Goex would have produced

[@cindycressler1239]

I’ve had to try shutzen it’s awful then Swiss (wow amazing ) I’m sold on swiss

[@leekoontz7541]

Thank you for being there, learning a lot about my new hobby.

[@duelist1954]

I’m glad to help.

[@jamesvatter5729]

Good stuff, Mike. Like you, I stopped patching roundballs in my fowler. Nearly started a wildfire in the late season last year with a wad of tow. Quickest "flaming leaf two step" I've ever done! I consider 75 yards my max with the 16 bore.

[@duelist1954]

The fire hazard is why I went from Tow to woll blanket or cut paper as my wadding material.

[@bbcustomoutdoors]

The videos are holding me over as I anxiously await my Sitting Fox fusil kit. Good stuff!

[@jeffreyrobinson3555]

I did a sitting fox smooth rifle, and I couldn’t have been more happy with it

[@flintandball6093]

How did it turn out? I’d love to try one myself someday

[@bbcustomoutdoors]

@@flintandball6093 I have a LONG way to go yet. I have the barrel fitted and pinned, and I have polished the lock plate. I’m now working on polishing the frizzen, which is a pain since it’s hardened steel. All in all so far, I think it’s a good kit. My only disappointment is the casting was pretty poor on the frizzen, and I may not have enough metal to get it as smooth as I’d like.

[@BurkeSchneider]

Very impressive groups using the round balls! Can't thank you enough for putting out this type of content. You're inspiring a whole new generation by using KZbin. I can't imagine having access to these videos when I was a kid. I had the local library full of non technical history books that barely went into any detail. The books were full of historians just repeating tales we have all heard ad nauseum, that smoothbores weren't accurate and Americans armed with their rifles were the norm in the Revolution.

[@duelist1954]

Thanks. I'm glad you think they are educational.

[@saltytraveller]

Great video. I have a Brown Bess, and I found that it shoots much more accurately than historians tell us it should. Don't feel bad about being seasoned, you are not alone. It has been a while since I had color in my whiskers too!

[@bbtfan7957]

Personally, I think most of the Brown Bess's rep for in accuracy was propaganda to hype the legend of the long rifle.

[@bcb5696]

@@bbtfan7957I think it’s just the fact that loading and shooting a musket quickly and with accuracy already takes a good amount of training and skill then add that you’re now actively getting shot at while doing it and all the nerves and shaking youd be contending with plus the fact that infantry didn’t always have a ton of training time with their weapons ammunition could be scarce depending on what military and conflict you’re talking about

[@michael.w.salter]

As a fellow "tired old man", a lot of shots for me are "a bridge too far" without leaning on a tree. You did pretty good with no rear sight. I wouldn't want to stand in front of you. Great video Mike.

[@duelist1954]

Thanks

[@mrdinme.4768]

Amen to that

[@jonathanhill7096]

Appreciate the video. I have been one of those who always believed smoothbores were useless past short ranges. Thanks for showing how capable they can be.

[@duelist1954]

The reason they have that reputation is because, in the 18th century, 100 yards was considered close range. Rifle country didn’t really start until 150 yards. 18th century riflemen would be amazed at how short the target ranges are, that we use in modern muzzleloading matches.

[@jonathanhill7096]

@@duelist1954 I have a 12 gauge Pedersoli percussion side by side. Would firing a ball from such a firearm be advisable? The barrels seem very thin. Are the barrels of flintlock fowlers thicker? Obviously I am a novice in the blackpowder realm.

[@duelist1954]

@@jonathanhill7096 It will handle a ball just fine

[@rickybrown3243]

Great stuff. Love all of it here in TN. 12 miles from DGW. Keep the shotgun stuff coming. Please.

[@rockymountainstranger3754]

I really enjoy watching your videos but I must confess the flintlock ones are my favorite! Your round ball shooting is much better than mine out of a smooth bore, I might give you a run for your money with shot though, just last weekend I killed two for two on live pigeons with my Bess carbine at 35 and 40 yards but I did learn what loads would work from your videos! Thanks for what you do

[@waynehendrix4806]

Mike, glad to see some 2F used for round ball. I had a conversation about using 3F in a 50 hawken with ball, this last weekend. I always used 80 grain 2F, patched 50 ball, and 4F in the pan. This last outing ran from 65 to 90 grains, and I think I liked the 90 grain best. Last round was dead center elevation and 1.5" right at 50 yds. Hoping to find time to try 3F before season, but if not, it will do ok. Thank you for presenting your outing.

[@johnlea8519]

I have a percussion 12 gauge Fowler so I found the video very interesting, I haven't had it long so I have a lot of experimenting to do.

[@sauerkrautlanguage]

military historians should really try shooting a smoothbore before claiming that muskets had an effective range up to 50 yards

[@ILoveMuzzleloading]

I regularly think I'm starting the camera when I'm stopping it! Thanks for keeping that in Mike. Great video.

[@stevebuckskinner5482]

In spite of the technical difficulties, I really enjoyed this.

[@duelist1954]

Thanks!

[@bobmiller4383]

Very interesting video. Thanks so much. I haven't had much luck with shot sizes smaller than # 5 and actually have now standardized on # 4

[@justanothergunnerd8128]

I haven't checked on the channel in a while - very glad to see you are still doing videos. I have learned so much from your videos. Take care Sir.

[@davidguerrero9270]

Love the video, I am always amazed at the effectiveness of smoothbores!! Thanks for posting!

[@duelist1954]

My pleasure

[@wayneantoniazzi2706]

Late to the party here but I'm going to put my own two cents worth in. I used to shoot trap with a Brown Bess carbine and compared to a modern shotgun I found that with a black powder smoothbore with no choke the shooter has about 2/3d's the range of a modern shotgun, but within that 2/3d's range it's just as effective. I broke birds but I had to get on 'em quick! My load was 100 grains of FF, a modern plastic 12 gauge shot cup (perfect fit in a Pedersoli bore), 1 1/2 ounces of shot, and a sheet of toilet paper for a top wad. (It made a nice "snowfall" after the shot!) Obviously the plastic shot cup wasn't authentic but it worked and also had a cleaning effect on the barrel. I never had much luck with a patched round ball (turns out after seeing this I shouldn't have tried) but it was deadly with a cast 12 gauge rifle slug, shot like a rifle! Again, not authentic but it worked. Those smoothbores are pretty darn versatile if you get out and worth with them!

[@ChrisBarnard-vd2fj]

Great video Mike, thanks for making and sharing it.

[@1947ramrod]

Good video ! I have been building and shooting muzzleloading rifles for 50 years and hunt exclusively with them. It is funny that you demonstrated loading a patchless ball. I have a CVA 12 gauge double barrel and loaded with patchless 69 caliber balls , both barrels shot to the point of aim at 50 yards pushed by 100gr by Goex ffg. I used over the powder wads over the balls. I also used over the powder wads between the powder and balls. This load was very accurate and consistent . That shotgun put lots on meat in my freezer.

[@billmazzocco5275]

No problems with the balls vs jist shot? Dealership people always say "only use shot" but the modern steel barrels should be able to handle the pressures with blackpowder loads with lead balls.

[@yarlane621]

Very cool, I was amazed that a smooth bore would hit at 100yards, so you must have done your part good video sir.👍😁

[@midnight4540]

Mike this was a great perspective view for 18th century shooting. I have to admit, have lot of respect for the men in that time period. Thanks and Take care.

[@duelist1954]

Thanks

[@stevelemmen7048]

Yes yes! Before watching you shoot smoot bore, I thought they would be all over the place. Now I want one! Probably cap lock, but smooth

[@ramblingsofthethurmondator1657]

A great video as always. Thanks for doing these.

[@duelist1954]

Glad you liked it.

[@jonmullenax778]

always great videos ...been watching off and on, when I get the urge to get covered in soot.

[@wrxs1781]

Great video Mike, and from my modern perspective of a BP trap shooter, the shot load that works best is 1oz shot square load of 777 powder, and for single projectile loads I us 1oz Lee cast slugs, 70gr 777, slugs are all waxed dipped, nitro card over powder, and half card over slug. But again this is not an 18th century reproduced load.

[@pierre-yveschretien5868]

Merci..toujours intéressant !

[@clifflee7461]

Good shooting Mike,Another top video .Going to try no patch with my 62 cal next time i have it out.Cheers

[@KarmaFlight]

Coyly says his shooting is not up to par, proceeds to drill it! 🙌

[@earlshaner4441]

Hi from Syracuse NY brother and thank you for sharing your thoughts and adventures and the facts and truth and I am glad that I am keeping up with you brother because KZbin is not letting me know you are here brother

[@duelist1954]

Yeah, KZbin likes to with hold notifications on my videos...I don't know why.

[@earlshaner4441]

Outstanding job brother

[@1boortzfan]

Great video Mike, that's lots of food for thought.

[@h-minus2212]

Great video and test for effectiveness - just awesome.

[@ToreDL87]

Having watched so many videos by (mostly) you and C&B (and others of course) I've come to understand that smoothbores are not even nearly as ineffective as portrayed by history books. Always knew they were used in faaar superior numbers to rifles though, and now I know why, they weren't just for looks, they are quite capable of doing their part, and more, out to 100-150 (with a good shot) yards.

[@Everythingblackpowder]

Great video. Love the smoothbore content!

[@earlshaner4441]

Thank you for sharing history brother

[@mrdinme.4768]

That was neat, thanks Mike. I took some pains and converted my budget friendly Kentucky long gun from cap to a flint, holy cow what a blast. I love it. Now I want a nice one! Its different from shooting caplock.

[@Ohmy1956]

Off hand that’s incredibly impressive

[@duelist1954]

Thanks, but I really muffed the deer target...no idea why.

[@theodorebranin1365]

Excellent video as usual!

[@sr633]

As a kid I had a women's percussion 45 caliber double barrel fowling piece. A lot ofun !

[@blackpowderfirearmenthusia3194]

Awesome video, thanks for sharing.

[@duelist1954]

Glad you liked it.

[@distracteach]

Great video as always...would certainly like to hear about the custom makers you've had success with

[@donnacorrell3527]

Great stuff! As a hunter in American forests in the 1700's, there would most always be a convenient tree or branch to help steady one's weapon, no? As a hunter in Mississippi and other places East of the Mississippi River, I have always found that to be so.

[@rezlogan4787]

I always keep a head height walking stick handy for shooting past 50 yards. It keeps the gun steadier than offhand.

[@mdk2066]

That's a really stout load with the shot, compared to modern loads. Looks like it, too, with the recoil. You're an awesome shot.

[@joemiller9632]

Good video sir looks like you did good without patching a ball

[@trumanmcgiver7]

Another great video. I am impressed with the speed of that lock. You have that thing perfectly tuned. A rear sight on that rig would have put you in the money on the paper targets at 50 / 100 both. 👍🏻

[@filianablanxart8305]

In the context of the day , in the early to mid 1700's , something like this would a been a single gun owned by a Frontier Settler , to do absolutely everything .

[@kswan6581]

Thanks for sharing this video. I think I'm going to give bare ball shooting a try in my .62.

[@skiphinson8620]

My smoothbore is a 20 gauge double barrel cap lock. It shoots shot quite well of course and I have used round ball placed in a modern 20 gauge shot wad with great results out to 75 yards. Never really tried it further than that.

[@hawkenrifles]

Another excellent video. I also like to shoot with my 12 gauge flintlock shotgun. Greetings from Spain.

[@garymyersgarym6434]

Mike grate vid, love you smoothbore.

[@TheGunfighter45acp]

Haha! You are right about how big a man is at 100 yds when he is shooting at you. Incoming fire always has the right of way.

[@jbhickok7796]

You need to get an extended mag for that smooth bore, Mike. 😂

[@bradhensley7461]

Excellent video as usual. Btw I have noticed your wrist watch over time, good classic choice and built to take the recoil.

[@duelist1954]

I keep forgetting to take it off... Rolex Oyster Perpetual Datejust Chronometer, circa 1976....takes a licking, and keeps on ticking...LOL

[@kentwilliams4152]

The 12 bore appears to have a bit of recoil! I understand from TVM's web site that they will install a rear sight on their fowler. Seems like a great idea.

[@GaryED44]

Great video my friend. Thank you for bringing it to us. Think you're being a little hard on yourself, i mean 100 yards with no rear site. I thought you did good!

[@jacobmarley4907]

I second that emotion!

[@pbp6741]

@@jacobmarley4907 If that word play was intentional well done. Made me laugh.

[@jacobmarley4907]

@@pbp6741 It was and I am surprised anyone recognized the origin (Smokey Robinson and the Miracles). I also realize I have dated myself LOL.

[@thecelticprince4949]

Tired ??? Mike. Try 3 heart attacks in a little over a year, and you find out rapidly what the aging process really is and what tired is. I got about 2 years to hit 60. So my hats off to ya. Your still hitting the mark. Better than I can do.

[@josephbarnes8000]

Wow that's a huge hole in the deer target. And that recoil is incredible. Great video. Would love to see a scope sighting in video on a muzzle loader

[@denisdegamon8224]

Mike that wasn't so bad for shootingva bare ball 8n a smooth bore. Like you I am getting long in the tooth as well.

[@bobnancymiller4931]

Great video, Mike. Thank you for putting in the time and effort. I believe that 12 bore is rather new to you. Mine did it's best with paper cartridges , or with a blanket wad over the powder , using a .690 ball. . I don't know why the smaller ball shoots better, but it does.

[@harrisonlewis6853]

Mike, I would try my Enfield 24 gauge musketoon on your targets. Yes, Mike, a smooth bore musketoon. Ball on powder, no patching, just the way you loaded your fowler.

[@wrxs1781]

At .579 caliber you could us Minnie ball, or round ball. Is your rifle a Spanish or Italian reproduction, or an original Enfield. I have a .577 Snider Enfield smooth bore, short barrel that was supposed to be used by prison guards.

[@harrisonlewis6853]

@@wrxs1781 I have an Euroarms before they went out of business. Every thing is correct on it except it wasn't rifled. Royal Navy requested 10,000 of these in 1855. Mine's a modern reproduction.

[@wrxs1781]

@@harrisonlewis6853 Sounds like a more popular than you might think smooth bore, I would even try it on BP trap. Track of the Wolf can supply any necessary wads you might need, here are the item numbers. WAD-24-C, WAD-24-B and WAD-24-A. Have fun with your smoothbore.

[@timothysmith7230]

I have to say like watching these video's... Some people have notions to chase drink and wild women well that leaves me out for starters! I realize BP is a vice of mine and there looks to be no getting clean of it anytime soon.))) I got the October jitters an its jest awful's a something fierce I tell ya! I know where to go for the cure ! Thanks for another great video Mr. Mike.

[@tomcurran8470]

Good vid Mike, even if your camera messed up. Kinda what I thought, smoothbore is good for 50 yards in a hunting situation. BTW folks, ALL black powder and caps are out of stock at Graf & Sons today, 9/30/21. They went back in stock 10/1, (of course, I did not order any!) but now I hear GOEX is going out of business in December and there is only some Swiss in stock. BP is going the way of smokeless shooting...break out the bows, crossbows, atlatls, tomahawks, and swords!

[@peterjohnson170]

I'd like to see you try the same course of fire using tow, it works better for me in my trade gun. Love your videos, keep up the good work

[@blusnuby2]

Surprised; was expecting MUCH less recoil with your black powder 12 bore fowler. I call that pretty decent marksmanship, partner !

[@bbarton84]

Great video thanks!

[@straightpipec6099]

Good video

[@MrPh30]

Look into a Paradox episode once and SG or LG shot ammo also would be good to learn more about.

[@timber123doddle]

Another great job! I do have a couple of questions. #1 why the cushion wad instead of tow with the bird shot and #2 are you wiping the bore after each shot?? Just for fun try a test of a life and death situation. First shot is loaded with your paper on top but your next two shots are powder and ball only, as if your life depends on two very quick follow up shots. No wiping of the bore. Enjoy your videos thanks for your time.

[@duelist1954]

I have found that just tow alone for the over-powder wad is too porous for a shot load. The gases from firing tend to travel right through the load column, giving very little power to the shot. There are more PC wads I could have used, but I had a tub of lubed cushion wads on hand.

[@clintfoster1639]

Love these

[@markfair7648]

I will have to try bare balling in my Mortimer 12 gauge. I don't shoot at anything beyond 40 yards with shot. Looks like it bucks you good Mike with that 110 gr load.

[@calebstevens4658]

Great videos

[@hamm6035]

Love the high powers firing in the background and boom, must have been thunder. Hahaha

[@carsonb3914]

Fun watch.

[@marctric]

Great video Mike, thanks for sharing. I'm still curious about how far a smooth-bore could be improved. In this case, at 100 yard, a smaller caliber (supposedly a flatter trajectory) and a rear sight to increase shooter precision.

[@duelist1954]

A rear sight makes a big difference.

[@Neighborhoodgo2guy]

Your third shot on the 50 yd deer target you can see you held tight when fired. 👍

[@jayclark7237]

I would be interested in how you would do with buckshot at the various distances.

[@duelist1954]

I'll probably do a video on buckshot this Fall.

[@STMwoodturning]

Really enjoyed this video along with the other flintlock videos you recently posted. Question: is the recoil as fierce as it appears? You shoulder looks like it's getting set back a good bit by every shot, especially with the round ball shots. Take care, Stuart

[@mrdinme.4768]

Well, he was shooting 110 grains.

[@scottydwallace]

Mike Any advise or references for shooting steel shot from a muzzleloader? Dont want to mess my barrel up. Thank you

[@MegaBurndown]

thank you I love smooth bores

[@pawadventures5544]

Good video. 👍🏻😎

[@graywolf9876]

Thanks for another great video and info, I'm still work on my rifle using your suggestions in your flintlock series its has improved the ignition a lot but still not just right, but have more work to do. Could you give some advise on the frizzen like when to replace, how long the last, hardness, pitting, how to adjust if any? Thanks

[@duelist1954]

Unless your frizzen is very soft...like the flint is actually gouging it a little, it will outlast you. I find most frizzen issues are because of over-strong frizzen springs.

[@graywolf9876]

@@duelist1954 Thank you, my gun is a Invsestarm Hawken's I bought it many years ago and I believe I have a crap lock. I think L&R"s RPL is my best bet.

[@dentonslovacek4932]

Mike makes great and practical videos. Not sure I would spend 110 grains of Swiss on a bird. Not a great ROI when a long way from re-supply. That's only about 60-65 shots per lb. not counting the lead being thrown. I am now wondering if bird and small game were harvested in a more economical way????

[@markgoostree6334]

I remember my grand father telling me about catching a flock of robins roosting in a cedar tree. They got long rolls of cheese cloth, stitched together. They cut long river cane and used it to flip that cheese cloth over the tree (in the dark). they caught several hundred birds. Cooked them like doves. He was 89 when he died ( 1970 ) this goes back to when he was 12 or14 years old. Also... he could have been pulling my leg. He seldom missed a chance for THAT... you know gran'daddys.

[@paulhowe8030]

Great video as usual. Always wonder why a rear sight was not put on smooth bores. Any ideas?

[@duelist1954]

Honestly, I don't know why they weren't more common.

[@jeffw1246]

I had a 58cal Zouave before I started reloading, it was very accurate and I thought about getting back into blackpowder with another Zouave replica. When I got the first one you could buy one for about the same price as a basic shotgun but now they cost as much as a high end rifle. Seems a very simple design, any idea why they are premium priced nowadays? I've seen prices around $1,200.

[@duelist1954]

There are a lot of reasons. When Italy went from Lira to the Euro, they got creamed by the EU. Prices took an immediate jump up. The Lira to dollar exchange rate had been more favorable to the dollar than the Euro to dollar rate, so prices in Italy went up, and prices in the US went up more. Since then there has been an overall devaluation of US currency, so a lot of imports are higher.

[@jeffw1246]

@@duelist1954 I knew it had to be more than just labor and materials. Thanks, maybe someday I may yet get my Zouave.

[@win1885]

That powder charge looks like it generates substantial recoil.

[@ordoyneg]

Great video Mike, sad news heard Goex is shutting down production.

[@duelist1954]

Hodgedon is looking for a buyer for the Goex brand, so we'll have to wait and see what develops.

[@robertfarrow4256]

this was fun!

[@Tammy-un3ql]

Good stuff!👍👍👍

[@victorvannatter7774]

Great video. Two things. No evil Roy? Poor guy. Second. Have you thought of getting a jug choke machined into that fine fowling piece? From what I understand, it should not affect round ball shooting but will tighten up shot patterns

[@dennisatkins9837]

That look as though it gives you a pretty good kick.

[@caderly123]

It seems that the addition of a rear sight would dramatically increase hit percentages at longer ranges, but perhaps that just wasn't done in period?

[@duelist1954]

It was done, but not the preponderance.

[@rogerclark9285]

Good video. 110 grains of powder seems like it would be on the heavy side for the time period.

[@duelist1954]

Shooting bare ball in a smoothbore requires a heavy powder charge. I develop a load by starting low, and increasing the charge incrementally until I find the powder charge that works best.

[@mikef3808]

Very nice, a 16 gauge fowler would have been a great thing to have at this time.

[@jeffreyrobinson3555]

Firearms, Traps and Tools if the Mt Men, does record an HBC official Levine referring to a smoothbore being used in Canada before 1847 being loaded with a patched round ball and shooting as well as a rifle out to sixty yards. Turns out Russell misquotes the guy and what he said was in the fingers of warn out gloves, so it’s a leather patch here. That’s seventy years post you gun but at least it shows patched ball isn’t a modern invention even if not as old as your gun

[@duelist1954]

Thanks for the reference

[@MichaelMiller-od6pu]

Hi Mike good shooting! How much does your Fowler weigh?

[@murphy4yt]

Great video, Mike. Thanks. I seem to recall that you loaded your smoothbores in other videos with tow. Do you not use tow any more?

[@duelist1954]

I stopped using tow a couple of years ago because of the fire hazard. Now I mostly use wool blanket wads or cut paper wads.

[@jj-ve9wy]

Nice shooting Mike, I was wondering, are you using the same sight alignment with each shot or are you elevating the front sight to adjust for range? Thanks for helping us with our homework.

[@duelist1954]

I was just using the battle sight that I filed for a 50-yard zero.

[@billmazzocco5275]

The 12 gauge has a bigger push to it with 110gr of powder. You seem to like the 12 gauge better than the 20gauge smoothboore guns. What is the OAL of this gun? Looks lio3 42" barrel.

[@duelist1954]

The barrel is 38 inches long.

[@billmazzocco5275]

Ever shot lead balls out of blackpowder shotguns ? Should be same principle and application...at least in modern blackpowder guns without a choke.

[@charlescomly1]

Hi Mike, do you think if you were using a patched ball the accuracy might have been different, just wondering.

[@duelist1954]

A little. The lack of a rear sight is the real limiting factor...that and my shooting ability.

[@smartacus88]

I remember as a kid before the internet reading any firearms related publication I could lay hands on, and they were all full of "rules" about certain things. An AK-47 could only shoot 6MOA at best. A musket is useless beyond 100 yards. A 22lr was only good for squirrel sized animals inside of 50 yards, but was dangerous "out to a mile" The 30-30 was a 150 yard cartridge etc ad nauseum. Anyway, I'm sure a fellow who relied on his musket for his survival and who shot often could probably hit a man sized target out to 200 yards with a roundball easily enough.

[@Tradesman1156]

Me thinks in the frontier a good, forked stick was advantageous to steady 100-yard shots!