12 Bore vs 20 Bore ?!

[@wholeNwon]

My favorite gun for upland shooting continues to be a 20 ga double. It's so much lighter than my 12s that a day in the field is more enjoyable and less tiring when following the dogs. I'm also on target faster than most of my friends who are trying to wield cannons at flying birds.

[@KolyaNickD]

On of the main reasons you should buy a twelve is if/when lead is banned and you are going to be firing steel shot. In this case you need that extra volume to make up the load with the larger shot - also there are now steel shot with fibre cup available but only in 12g probably for the same reason. A heavy load through a 20g also gives a nasty kick and strings out so far that in a crossing situation a large part of the column is completely redundant as it won't hit. That said my go to gun is a triple barrel 20g, always nice to be able to stuff your pockets with the smaller shells!

[@scottnathanphoto]

I love your channel. My experience after shooting and owning piles of shotguns for 35 years. Both rounds kill birds and clay. People love to debate shot size and chokes. In my humble opinion, whether it's a 28 or a 12 with 3.5inch Magnums, you're either on target or you're off. The other minutiae won't save you. As for recoil, mass and weight is everything. I prefer light and lively game guns, but they punish my shoulder equally irrespective of caliber. My 20ga Browning and my 12 gauge Beretta kick the same. My Kreighoff K-80 is purpose built for sporting clays and has far less recoil than my 28 bore Lancaster. Why? Because it's a big heavy gun. Weigh absorbs energy, thus saving your body. That said, I don't shoot heavy guns nearly as well as I grew up whipping guns about. Last note. For upland hunting in the states and Africa, I always choose the sub gauges for one reason. Weight. Whether climbing mountains with a dog in the Mojave Desert or walking all day in South Dakota fields, the weight savings in both guns and ammo is worth and ballistic sacrifice. For driven guys standing still in suits and ties, sure. Do the 12 bore. My 2 cents.

[@wholeNwon]

Exactly. If you're going to be walking in the field all day, a nice, light-weight 20 is ideal. I use an old Sauer and love it.

[@leatt4693]

I have a 20 gauge and hunt Canada geese with it. I was successful with firing off 2 shots and getting 2 geese! Biggest difficulty for me is getting use to ranging the geese for effective kills!

[@Britishshooter]

Very well put together video. I have to say that for what is worth I have done a lot of 20 v 12 long range, being 50, 55 and 60 yards patterning with same cartridge/same shot size/same load/same chokes- back to back and found consistently that the 20 bore out performs the 12 at these long ranges in terms of pattern density and pellets per gram. That said, even with cylinder chokes at 30 yards the 20 also delivers 4.8 pellets per gm v 4.4 pellets per gm for the 12. Many will quite rightly say that the 12 allows 36 gm plus cartridge loads which is true, however, surprisingly I have found that any load in a 12 over 32 gm with 3/4 or full choke actually delivers less pellets at 60 yards in the killing circle than a 32 gm (not at closer ranges where these mega loads are an advantage, just 60 yards ) so I believe they are simply a waste of lead due to blowing holes in the patten, for the high bird shooter who generally buys them. I bet a lot of shooters would be shocked at the results if they tried 32 gm v 38 gm at 60 yards patterning. I tediously count every single pellet and always use fresh clean cardboard pallet liners with proper 30 inch circles and CD sized bullseyes so my results are as scientific as I can make them. Unlike most of the gun manufacturers who use steel pattern plates like they did in the 1600's!! The 20 obviously delivers a longer shot string than the 12 bore, gm for gm due to stacking the same load in a tighter formation to start with, which for the average shooter puts it at a disadvantage over the 12. That said, many experts use the longer shot string of the 20 to their advantage so at the end of the day, as you point out, it comes down to individual choice.

[@wholeNwon]

Great post. Were shot cups in the shells to protect the column from barrel friction?

[@charlessmith4242]

What about the inner characteristics of each barrel? Were the forcing cones the same lengths etc. Any back boring done to any of the guns? If everything is as close to identical as possible,I think you have a good 20ga. given that you said your shot column for the20ga.is long which usually results in more pellet deformation, thus more flyers. I love all my gauges .410-12ga.,but if I'm pheasant hunting for wild birds (not pen raised birds) I'm shooting my 12ga. with 1&1/4 oz. of no.4's in a2&3/4in. chamber ( min.). And tight chokes. I have seen excellent shots fail to anchor our South Dakota pheasants consistently shooting the 20ga. These birds are tough. They can be spooky and if they catch the almost always blowing wind can really put some distance on you in a hurry. I also won't shoot any shot size below no.5's. I like to hit those birds as hard as I can(within reason). When I was much younger no.6 was considered a great size for pheasants( maybe it still is), but I can tell you from experience,I have shot more pheasants than I care to admit with no. 6 size shot only to see the feathers explode, the bird crumples and strikes the ground with an audible thud, the dog is right there but the bird is never recovered. I just started to shoot them in the head when I could and if I couldn't I would shoot the bird twice. I can't stand to lose a cripple. That is one differences of our type of hunting to the shooting of driven birds where the head is really exposed.

[@Britishshooter]

@@charlessmith4242 Actually I have found the ratio to be consistent with all off the shelf guns. The shorter shot string of the 12 is the generally accepted advantage but some of the top high bird shooters in the UK deliberately use the longer shot string of the 20 to 'hose'; a longer thinner line of shot. I frequently shoot birds over 60 yards with both and have never decided which I prefer over the other. It depends on my mood. I use 32 gm in each as my tests show anything over that causes pellet damage in both 12 and 20 equally. By the way, you refer to pen raise birds, that is only for the first 6 weeks of their lives to protect then from foxes, after 6 to 9 weeks they are released into the wild and then they quickly grow up to become the fastest pheasants on the planet (due to their Scandinavian/UK selective gene stock). By the time the seasons starts they are pulling 45 to 50 mph at 50 to 80 yards which is why visitors come from all over the world to experience the challenge of British driven shooting. No un-driven wild bird ever moves as fast or high as a driven bird on a well organised British driven shoot.Trust me, I have all over the USA and many other places in the world.

[@Nils_Tore_Berntsen_Sagengen]

I exclusively shoot a 28” 20 bore side by side and for me its the perfect gun for all types of shooting i do.

[@marcushorsley4019]

This has helped reassure me to keep my 20 bore instead of upgrading to a 12 bore! Thanks

[@C4H10N4O2]

You mean downgrading to 12g 😉

[@Smithsfan71]

I’ve pheasant hunted for over thirty years and I can honestly say I’ve put more pheasants on the ground with a 20 gauge than anything else.

[@JDWard-Jeepster]

For upland game like quail a 20 gauge or better yet a 28 handles and swings so much smoother. The key is stock fit and weight. I am also speaking about side by sides. In a over under a 20 is perfect.

[@ChristineInNornia]

Thank you for the explanation. I have a 20 Bore OverUnder, my husband has a 12 Bore Semiautomatic side loading. My 20 Bore does kick more than the 12 Bore Semiautomatic. Both make a satisfactory bang😁

[@christopherhindle1174]

At long last, someone doing a realistic and fair comparison between the two calibers, to show that using a 20 bore is no disadvantage from a performance point of view, but there are definite advantages, such as being able to carry more 20 bore cartridges than 12 in a pocket, generally speaking with a lighter gun which is less tiring to carry.

[@wholeNwon]

How many shells do you need? If the daily limit is 3 birds, you need 3 shells, right?

[@IWC59]

@@wholeNwon Depends where you live, in the UK we have no bag limits.☺

[@jcarry5214]

Thanks for this. I've been kicked hard and light by both. I'm shopping for a double and focusing on 20 mainly for lighter barrels and balance but I've picked up some used 12s lately that are very spry for less money, so I'm thinking 20g new or 12 used.

[@muskett4108]

Two things to add to the discussion: Tighter barrel then more upheaval going on as the shot is forced along and out. Harder less plastic lead helps overcome pellet deformation. Some say the length of shot stream out of a 20b is longer so a benefit??? Don't think it makes a hoot of difference. Gun fit, gun weight, and skill to put the cloud of shot through a target are the things that matter. I do think many a fixed choke 20b's seems to give a tighter pellet cloud than a twelve. Some seem to smash game up a bit at the shorter ranges??? I shoot a 12 because there seems just less "forced" with all that goes on. Its the gauge where all the work has been done. I tend to use less choke and 30 or 32gr so higher pellet count. High birds then heavier shot 5's, 41/2's, and never go under a 4. 6's and 5's will do 85% anyhow. For clays do whatever you like. Whatever floats your boat. Good fun vids.

[@mattcartwright8272]

Jon - very useful video, thanks. Lots of new information to take in but you were talking so fast and moving quickly through the topics that i thought my head was going to explode!

[@andrewransom6489]

Great video and explanation. Really comes down to personal preference as there isn’t really much difference. I would probably lean towards the 12 if for no other reason than the price of shells. Maybe wait till AFTER filming before knocking over a quadruple espresso!

[@dalanwanbdiska6542]

Cant wait to find a side by side 20 gauge . I bought a mossberg 510 last week and its the best shotgun ive had in a long time since the remington wingmaster. I want to get a double since they shoot so fast, faster than pump and all i need is 2 shots so it would be perfect. I dont mind this small child size pump 20 gauge with 18 1/2 barrel using mod choke. I can now hit birds close, used a savage single shot full choke and i got used to shooting far targets. close targets are abit harder with the pattern staying tight for a longer distance. I love this 20 gauge, mod choke , 18 1/2 inch barrel , lightweight and plastic so its light and im not afraid if mud gets on it.

[@mchughcb]

Currently using a Nobel Sports Italia 31 gram #0 shot in the 20 bore and its shooting pretty good compared to the standard 42 gram#BB shot in the 12 bore. However we may start getting some Nobel Sports Italia 76mm copper plated 36 gram #3/0 shot in the 20 Bore and that will be right up there for fox control.

[@pwprochazka]

once you listen at 0.75 playback speed, its great information!

[@benclay8689]

Do 12 bore vs 16 bore

[@samuelfitzsimmons8907]

Just watched his new vid on 16 bore

[@wholeNwon]

Same thing only less.

[@pinkhead6857890]

Both bores pale in comparison to the awesome superiority of the 16 gauge. Most shells are loaded with one oz of shot anyway. One oz of shot is one 16th of a pound or 16 gauge, so why isnt this the standard bore fore all shotguns? Im sure we can thank the oh so wonderful metric system for this fantastic oversight.

[@wildrangeringreen]

Common bore sizes have their foundations before cartridges were even a thing, back when you might load a ball for deer one day, then small shot the next for grouse. A 350gr ball is a nice, flat shooting ball, great for deer, and you get more than 16 per pound. For Eland, Buffalo, Moose, ect, one might like a ball that weighs more than a pound, so a 583gr ball might be better out of a 12bore gun. 16 Bore, just like 32, 28, 24, 14, 10, and 8 bores were also around, just most people settled on roughly 20 and 12 (and an over-bored 28 is basically a 20, just like an over-bored 14 is basically a 12), because they're nice, do-all bores. There also weren't "standardized" shot loads at the time either, so people loaded according to what they were doing. Some people with heavier barreled 20 bore ML shotguns will load 90gr of BP and close to 1.75 oz of large bismuth shot for geese and swan (brutal to shoot very many of those). They can also load little 45gr charge, 1/2oz loads of 7's for rabbits and such. Basically, the bore sizes became common first, then when people started selling cartridges for them, they came up with standardized loadings for them.

[@ericford8556]

Good shouldering and swinging through the bird will get you more hits than worrying about if you brought enough gun. The pheasants fall quickly with a good shot from either the 12 bore or the 20 bore.

[@jasonbeary8427]

The 12 lets you shoot a more open choke for a wider spread with a similar shot density because it launches more pellets in its larger payload. No matter, you still have to be able to shoot. A more open pattern only helps, it doesn't cure a less than excellent shot taken.

[@tgsoutdoors]

Never a truer word said

[@Tuton25]

I've never really understood the need to go above 1-1/4 oz. of shot, at that point a tighter choke will do more than throwing more shot...

[@bdiggz7957]

great video Jonny, keep them coming!

[@danebrewer10]

I enjoyed that, and echoed my thoughts completely 👍🏻

[@istorichunter8807]

Why you guys in the north America and Europe don't use 16 bore? I have one over/ under 12 bore, and 16 bore side by side. Personally I love 16 bore

[@wholeNwon]

They used to be very popular in the U.S.

[@nwmacguy]

I have at times. 6 lbs on a scale 1952 Ithaca 37 Featherlight.

[@jordancarlson4933]

We do, they're pretty popular for upland game. The ammo is just harder to find, but the weight/power balance is pretty well recognized in my circles.

[@ryanhobbs3362]

This channel gets more entertaining with every video. Well done lads!

[@dalanwanbdiska6542]

20 bore, 18 1/2 barrel with mod choke, pump action . Using #7 1/2 shot. My bird loads for 50 yards and in.

[@DA2THFA1RY]

12g is more common and a bit cheaper to shoot, I'll take a bit of extra recoil for cheaper shots and being guaranteed for a shop to have 12g in a pinch is also a big plus

[@conlaiarla]

That's why I have a 12.and a 20 . Never have problem getting 12 occasionally have with 20 . I hear a lead ban is coming out for you British. It's going to be a disaster for older gun owner.

[@tobiastorsi]

Why then go for a 12 if you dont want to go high up in loads?

[@eddrosdick3724]

Love your videos, had to watch twice and still missed some info. Slow down a bit.

[@knobovsossidge2022]

That's the beauty of being able to control the video. If you miss something, hitch it back. Fast delivery of info is great.

[@marinradica3497]

you are great, king of hunting weapons and ballistics, you love what you do and go ahead, my full support to a friend, every part

[@grendelgrendelsson5493]

I bought 20 bores for my twin daughters because they chose what they wanted to shoot. They shoot my 12 bore pump too but they prefer their 20's.

[@dannicklin4727]

12 bore Shot leaves barrel 3 times slower than you speak... great videos if played at half speed 👍🏼

[@tomthoelke8343]

I would like to see you use Little Skeeters gauge or bore reducers in a 12 gauge and compare the patterns to a 20 bore, 28 bore, and .410 bore shotgun.

[@jeffreese4194]

If we increased the range to 40-45 yards then I'm to assume the 12ga would prove superior?

[@mrcaboosevg6089]

In my personal opinion 20 bore only serves to cost more, 12 bore has all the same loads but there's more options higher up the loads especially with 3" and 3.5" guns

[@Trentk69]

Another great video, and very informative. Thank you and keep up the good work!

[@raybede]

I enjoy your channel. This is very relevant to me as I switched to a 20 around 4 years ago. I've never looked back. I love my 20 and have killed some stunning birds with it. I just think you have to be a little more accurate, which to me is half the joy and a challenge. I was told by a well known authority on such matters that in order to kill birds you have to hit them first!! This is the same for any bore of gun!! I still try to remember that advice.

[@ironwoodoutdoorsman1950]

As always, Great Video!

[@rudigrest4013]

in the bigger loads 30-34 g -- 20 g must recoil more as gun does not weigh as much .

[@glynjones4425]

another interesting video, i didnt expect the results to be so close.

[@craigpeart7291]

Went to Park Lodge yesterday took my 525 Mate took his , we also took a 20 b for our other half’s £8 for 25 shells . Stick with 12b .

[@syedakbar77]

Lovely, cleared lot of things

[@nmhvactech5474]

So I’m looking for an O/U for my 11yr old son to use in three shooting disciplines ( Trap, Skeet, & Sporting). For the last 2 years he’s been using a Browning Silver Hunter Micro Midas 20ga and has done okay. Now my 9 yr old daughter wants to start and will be taking over that gun. What is a good O/U shotgun for youth shooters to go into? 12 or 20? Beretta SP 1 or Browning citori cxt /or high rib? My daughter will most likely be inheriting the next gun too as she is rather small and might not be up to the recoil of a 12ga. I already promised my son my new Browning 725 Pro Sporting when he’s 16. So what do you recommend for kids, 20 or 12? Beretta or Browning or something else?

[@wholeNwon]

For shooters with smaller builds, consider a 28 bore gas-operated autoloader. Otherwise 20 ga. There's a large difference in perceived recoil between those and any guns with fixed breeches. Muzzle brakes help, too.

[@snowlothar45]

Why did the 16 disappear - seems ideal to me.

[@philipsmedia5268]

SnowLothar becouse 16 bore ammo is expensive and you dont get much choice on cartridge spec.

[@danieltull9583]

It was done in by the trap and skeet ranges. It is still quite popular in Europe. It holds the same amount ot shot as a 3" 20ga.

[@karamich75]

I used to have a Yildiz side by side 20Ga, so light it felt like a toy.

[@usmc2511]

As always, good video!

[@mikeforester3963]

The stupendously British conclusion to the question: _They all kill birds_ XD

[@jeffreese4194]

One question I'm confused about; a high velocity 12ga shell at 1400 fps vs. a 1220 fps 20ga of the same shot size should reach the target faster and hit harder at longer range like 30-40 yards , correct? I often wondered

[@wholeNwon]

Yes.

[@giggergigger1]

The faster load will reach target marginally faster but won’t hit harder if both shot loads have some compositions, hard hitting loads will have 3-5% antimony in the lead and this is what defines a hard hitting load

[@callumcroft730]

What are your thoughts on the most effective gram and pellet size 12 bore game cartridge for high pheasants through 3/4 choke? Cheers

[@tst698]

30g 6 or 32g 5

[@frechwieoskar8052]

Will 20 gauge guns be useful after lead ban? I would love to buy one, but in Germay lead ban comes to count from 2023 and I don't want to buy a new gun then. But Incan't even find good 20g ammunition (other than expensive Tungsten). So, iat a 20gauge still a gun worth to buy?

[@mchughcb]

The 20 Bore #3 Buckshot with 20 pellets is also a great cartridge for foxes, wild goats and fallow deer out to 35 yards in a full choke.

[@MegaAppleshit]

Makes a pretty good hog and white tail load here in Texas, though I would prefer the 3 inch #2 buck loads.

[@mchughcb]

Mirage make a 36gr #4 20g load. Hows that for big payload!

[@RiojaRoj]

Not new to shooting but newish to shot guns. I fancy a 410.... maybe Mossberg 500 ? My reason being, my right shoulders knackered and I'm about to need a replacement so need something without too much of kick. Primarily looking to do a few crows, pigeons n clays. Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks Roj

[@wholeNwon]

Talk to your orthopedic surgeon first.

[@georgesakellaropoulos8162]

Can you learn to shoot from your other side?

[@joeblo5516]

They patterned the same with the same amount of shot. But the advantage of the 12 bore is it can hold more shot.

[@tgsoutdoors]

Indeed it can, but they match each other up to 32 grams pattern for pattern.

[@joeblo5516]

The Gun Shop Shooting clays here in the states, the typical 12 bore shell is 1 1/8 ounce of 8 shot, and the typical 20 bore is 7/8 ounce of 8 shot. Both around 1200 fps. I’m curious if there is much of an advantage in this situation. (Just in case you want to do another test).

[@tgsoutdoors]

a denser pattern or a wider pattern with the same density would be achieved with the 12 bore. We shall do a video on Shot weight at some point

[@HJDore]

The shoot I go beating on has other under 18s beat on it, that shoot shotguns, and I’ve asked them “what bore is your shotgun then?” And so far all have said 20 bore. Now being a 16 yr old that is the only one that fires a twelve bore in the group of under 18s makes me feel like a god to be honest.

[@wholeNwon]

Whatever stokes your masculinity, I guess. Maybe the others need less emotional support from their guns.

[@219garry]

My shooting instructor once told me that on a typical sporting clays course the 20 gauge would be roughly 97 percent as effective as a 12. An Over Under 20 gauge sporting shotgun is an excellent choice for someone who likes to shoot clays and carry a lightweight gun into the uplands.

[@garvinmcknight7862]

Whilst pattern density is very similar I have been told that 20 bore has less 'string' when shooting a crossing bird than the 12 bore. Is there any truth in this?

[@tgsoutdoors]

A very small amount - i defy that it makes a real difference though.

[@wholeNwon]

@@tgsoutdoors Of course. It's MUCH more important to be a good shot.

[@mchughcb]

20 guage 28 grams TSS #7 will blow a 12 gauge 42gram BB out of the water and not blow your shoulder off but it will make the visa card cry.

[@acdcjonnyboy]

Really great video, filled with some really useful information!! So if the 20 gauge and 12 gauge is determined by how many cartridges a pound of lead will fit into, then how come you get different amounts of lead in a cartridge or different weights?

[@tgsoutdoors]

Jonnyboy so a spherical ball of lead weighing 1lb is a 1 bore. A spherical ball of lead weighing 1/12 of a pound is a 12 bore and so on and so forth. It just denotes the size of the hole, not hole Much lead you chose to shove down it.

[@wholeNwon]

The space that accommodates the shot inside of the shell is adjusted by varying the length of the wad/shot cup.

[@jcarry5214]

There's often more filler/wadding volume in a shell than lead. Historically this is because it takes a lot of cardboard or fiber or plastic to pad the shot from the powder blast and push it down the barrel all at once, otherwise you'd get intermingling of powder and metal, no pressure buildup, and a general shitshow. Modern materials and chamber lengths mean that you can use small variations in that lead/filler ratio to get a LOT of shot in a 20 or a light amount in a 12 with good performance and patterns out of each.

[@nigelmchugh5541]

Only disadvantage with a twenty, the price of shells is higher.

[@josephsnisky1851]

There's just nothing like a 12ga.

[@Zefferum]

That looked like a very pretty 20 bore

[@tgsoutdoors]

Zefferum a Caesar Guerini Essex - rather pretty

[@wholeNwon]

Try a Boss.

[@ollyr5196]

What would you say for a 10 year old that is just getting into it

[@bradleyfarve]

20 gauge for sure

[@mikedupree832]

Hello John, Informative video! Only issue you talked a bit too fast. Would you re-explain 12 vs 20 bore. Much Thanks

[@drgdfhfdhfd498]

In reality most countries 20g quailty ammo is horrible at stock. For example where i live in sweden there is just junk ammo for 20g. So the theory does not apply in reality. 12 gauge is much smarter to have. I did learn that the hard way

[@tianstn2891]

Non English user like me suffers from your fast explanation... Can you perhaps slow down a bit pretty please.

[@jeremiahherron5895]

bore = gage ???

[@tgsoutdoors]

Basically yes

[@ChrisGalea76]

interesting !

[@chrisboon6354]

Hey, really interesting video. I have a random question when using snap caps in a gun is it normal for the firing pins to leave marks on the cap like it would on a cartridge. Is this normal or am I damaging something (for reference 12 Bore Beretta 686 E Evo)

[@tgsoutdoors]

Chris Boon perfectly normal mate, just the firing pin doing its thing

[@chrisboon6354]

The Gun Shop thanks a lot much appreciated. Love the channel btw

[@petemulhearn7787]

I imagine the way you cut through the BS ruffles a few feathers? lol

[@tgsoutdoors]

Pete Mulhearn it has been known!

[@hypegamergig1785]

For God’s sake, slow down at least a bit please... 😀. Just a bit. Great video as always!

[@Ge-Fat]

NANI? omae wa nohong desu ka? :) he is brittish, they do nt know how to slow down when they talk lol

[@hypegamergig1785]

MadMaikRC , he is fine. I used to deal with guys from Southampton... this is where you understand that you do not understand anything 😂😂

[@wholeNwon]

NO! Speed up. I love a challenge.

[@tobycussons188]

I wanted this video 👍

[@kevlec1947]

Slow Down mate.

[@anton1949]

20 is best, 3 inch 20's almost equal a 12.

[@tgsoutdoors]

So why not just have a 12?

[@anton1949]

@@tgsoutdoors Why carry around a heavy gun when it is no better, 2.75 inch 20 gauge will take any small game in America, 3 inch is more powerful than the 450 Socom they swoon over.

[@nyckolasseery1068]

20 is sharp recoil 12 is push

[@wholeNwon]

Depends on the weight of the gun, if the components of the shells are identical.

[@nyckolasseery1068]

wholeNwon to an extent. I was thinking it as similar loads as pushing the same amount of lead out of a smaller barrel will to an extent make the recoil sharp and snappy not heavier but much sharper where as a twelve is a heavy push. it is really the same amount of recoil it’s just a different feel/type of recoil in my opinion as I’ve shot both and own a 12 and 20 though I don’t personally like 20 as I use heavier loads for most of the hunting I do, and I like the push like recoil of the twelve as I feel it doesn’t throw my shot off if I take a follow up again just my opinion and preference

[@wholeNwon]

@@nyckolasseery1068 I think it's just Newtonian physics. Because 20s are virtually always lighter than 12s, there is less inertia to absorb the energy of discharge. 3 things affect recoil most: The rate of acceleration of the shot load, the mass of the shot load and the volume and rate of gas expulsion from the muzzle. I occasionally use a 12 for upland shooting but usually greatly prefer a light 20 double. It is very effective.

[@nyckolasseery1068]

wholeNwon you’re probably right but I use a 12 more as when I’m hunting turkey geese or ducks I’m using a heavier load unless it diver ducks as they fly lower to the water for the most part preference is how a gun feels for you and I still prefer my 12 because of how I use it 20 is still good hell its really nice for small game as it has more range than a 410 or 28 but it handles light loads well and doesn’t tear up smaller game like squirrel and rabbit but for birds I still prefer the twelve as I can get a wider pattern with a heavier load which makes my life easier especially since I started college and can only hunt on weekend and during breaks I also occasionally hunt on the southern tier which is in NY state and in most parts is shotgun only so a 1 oz slug in a 3 in or 2 3/4 in shell where I live at least is easier to find you bring good points and I agree with you but heavier loads for me it feels like are better in the 12 for example a 3 1/2 in shell with 2 ounce of #4 for goose or turkey as its a load I’ve used for both though I prefer a 3 in with 1 1/2 ounces of #4 for turkey as you can get them a lot closer if you can deal with the wait and stay still and quiet. Plus because turkeys get close so 1 1/2 is good enough and is easier to shoot though in truth at my size and with how used to shooting I am recoil doesn’t bother me anyways

[@wholeNwon]

@@nyckolasseery1068 I've almost always used a heavy 12 for ducks and geese, too. There was an occasion when I used a light but tightly choked 20 for decoying geese and, to everyone's surprise but mine, it was very effective. I simply kept my shots at 35 yd. or less and shot the birds in the head. Easy. All of mine were instantly dead on the wing. With a heavy 12, I would have reached out 10 yd. more but I only take shots that I know are going to be clean kills. I'm not hunting to survive. In these days of shot cups, buffers, etc., I think the old shot string length is less of an issue than it ever was. I do shoot a light, short chambered British 12 for upland birds. The gun is old but a delight to handle. I hand load 2 3/4 dr. 7/8 oz shells (fiber wads and no cups) for it and my pheasants are just a dead as anyone else's but I'm on target faster.

[@pauloakwood9208]

Maybe a little less caffeine, and better articulation would make it easier to understand him.

[@tonyv1695]

congratulations on comparing apples to oranges!

[@johnnypop-tart335]

you mean Gauge?

[@wholeNwon]

yes

[@tobiastorsi]

Why then go for a 12 if you dont want to go high up in loads?

[@georgesakellaropoulos8162]

It depends on what you want the gun to be able to do. Here in the United States, many people choose the 12 due to the fact that it can do anything you can reasonably expect a shotgun to do. Everything from Black Bear and feral Hogs to dove and quail. 20s are a bit light for larger game.