This Scale Is Impossible (But It Sounds Great)

These are a few of my favorite scales.
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There's lots of good scales out there. There's even plenty of great ones. But most of them have a few things in common. As a theorist, I get really excited when I find scales that don't play by the normal rules, scales that push back on our understanding of how scales even work, and some of my favorites of those are the ones developed by Olivier Messiaen. What makes them so unique? Well, they're not. That's what makes them awesome.
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Also, thanks to Jareth Arnold for checking the script!

[@adrianbautista2308]

I have the music theory knowledge of a rock, but I find these types of videos endlessly fascinating even if I have virtually no idea what you're talking about. I just like the cool music

[@E4439Qv5]

And left-handed doodling. I like the pictograms.

[@alexsterite3882]

i relate so much

[@elmiklosyt652]

Same thing

[@Msrobot3948]

Thank you for your honesty I feel a little better now bout myself

[@charlenemisuraca3473]

i agree

[@AJ-wh1tw]

You may feel this is maybe a bit too niche for KZbin, but this is exactly what I subscribe for and and will absolutely be putting this to use in my composition exercises if not a new piece. Keep up the great work, this is hands down my favorite theory channel on KZbin.

[@drew-et1mm]

considering they have more than half a million subs i think theyve found their niche

[@TheFakeyCakeMaker]

The whole purpose of KZbin is for this kind of niche, it didn't fully interest me but I still think it's a great video and very necessary.

[@DavidB-rx3km]

It sounds terrible

[@sleepdeep305]

Too niche for KZbin? You underestimate the scale of this humble video streaming platform on the internet

[@DrummerDaddio]

This "relatively obscure topic that just most people aren't going to care about" is what caused me to hit the subscribe button after watching probably a dozen of your videos based on algorithmic recommendations. This concept is fascinating! Thanks for making this video.

[@wellurban]

Obscure topics (neo-Riemannian theory) is how I found this channel in the first place, so I always relish these deep dives.

[@senboy9002]

10 months later I'm watching this after also having seen their videos, and I also realised I'm not subscribed

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

I adore the drawing of Marge Simpson as you say, "I just think it's neat" 🤣

[@aquamarinerose5405]

Was gonna say the same.

[@noceur4441]

He unbeknownst to him, created the greatest music for sampling, i’ve been sampling debussy for so long and just now realized why it was so easy to repitch sections and have it work into the original sample

[@tebi1kurieudidon172]

I love the idea that the actual Bismack Biyombo is sampling Debussy and Messiaen somewhere right now.

[@noceur4441]

@@tebi1kurieudidon172 gotta stay busy in the off season

[@JosefDerKaiser]

"I've been sampling debussy" lenny face

[@samiraperi467]

"This rhythm is a palindrome" *draws a tacocat* Well played, sir.

[@jazzygiraffe8589]

I wrote a very short (8 bars) 2 voice melody a few years back that sounded awesome to me but didnt make sense, which is why i dropped it because I had no idea how I had originally come up with it and didn't know how to add anything to it. Now I see that this sound I heard in it was this very scale (mode 3). Thank you very much for making this video :-)

[@iwanabana]

Show us!

[@bassman9261995]

I’d think Messiaen would have liked the whole “mega-Lydian” idea with the repeating tetrachords that also doesn’t really transpose because of how it extends along the circle of 5ths in both directions

[@jazzygiraffe8589]

Didn't monks in the medieval ages to the same thing with the dorian scale? I'm sure the concept would have been familiar to him

[@bassman9261995]

@@jazzygiraffe8589 The Gregorian chant I am familiar with doesn’t stray from the traditional definition of a the mode. I’m not aware of monks using Dorian tetrachords strung together like a giant scale, but it sounds really cool!

[@jazzygiraffe8589]

@@bassman9261995 The way I heard it, they sang a perfect fourth atop one another and their melodies used parallel motion exclusive with the melodies being based on the dorian scale

[@florencep2209]

@@jazzygiraffe8589 iirc there was something called musica ficta in medieval times, where you would sing certain notes higher than they are notated to allow for parallel motion (5th organum and later the 4th organum) while avoiding the tritones that would naturally occur. The tritone was not banned of course, but it was avoided in this style of music, so if you had two voice moving from a and e to b and f, you would sing f# (or b flat, I don't remember) to avoid the tritone, however the scale that you sing would not change in any way.

[@FinnbarrGoesFast]

Yeah I was so suprised this wasn't mentioned in the video. Like having a sequence of Whole steps and Half steps that doesn't repeat at the octave is such a cool trick

[@feasible]

I appreciate that you drew a taco cat when talking about palindromes.

[@Cogskate]

Note of caution: "...for as long as you remain a Curiousity Stream member." If you let your CS membership lapse there is NO Way to access Nebula again. Reactivating the membership only lets you access CS, not Nebula, and there's no way I can find to get Nebula without CS. Which is a shame, because I really enjoyed Nebula while I had it.

[@metallsnubben]

Well that really sucks because I'm honestly ONLY interested in nebula...

[@joarnold448]

I was in the same situation - I've just signed up with a different email address.....

[@alexbistagne1713]

That's really weird.

[@RubyRoks]

I'd like to think that's not intentional. Have you tried contacting customer support?

[@GizzyDillespee]

That's not reassuring. That would be really frustrating. You know, someday we'll cull the population based on who has the lowest view count, and then you'll really see people get creative to stay above the cutoff. It'll be a genetic abomination of the gig economy, influencer economy, and Survivor-style ruthlessness to win the pomplamoose lottery and ensure a good harvest for the survivors, and you're like, wait,didn't they mean "lottery" as in Powerball?! And then someone makes a video about the history of human sacrifice in the Americas, praying that the topical nature and monkeyfaced thumbnail will attract the algorithm's blessings. Anyway, I enjoyed this video, so maybe this comment will help fool the algorithm into selecting it for promotion. That would be good. I hope Curiosity Nebula or someone figures out an economic model that works for creators and audience when there are like 500 hours of videos uploaded to KZbin every minute, or something stupid like that. Then you're trying to sell videos, but if everyone's trying to sell videos, then no-one's selling any videos, so IDK the answer. But I liked this video, and subscribed. I also saw some great Dan Worrall vids tonight, Ixi, RMR, a Beato vid, they were all more satisfying than the football game or rerun on TV, but the TV show gets all the money. And then, the new South Park episode, they want you to subscribe to a separate channel, and the Beatles documentary was only on a different subscription. They weren't essential enough to do that. Maybe I'll burn my "first month free" when there's a whole season to binge, or find someone else with an account. But that kind of exploitation and loophole seeking cat and mouse game between creator and audience is a weird and probably unhealthy dynamic. I'm not talking about the 1% least common denominator popular trend pandering - I'm talking about niche topic good videos and that aren't ever going to pay the bills with millions if views. Myself, I'm just an amateur improviser, so these aren't personal concerns, but I'm curious about what's going to emerge from this transitional period we're in, where creators can't tell if it's Powerball or "The Lottery".

[@randysterbentz5599]

Time reversal symmetry, reflection symmetry, and rotational symmetry are all major theoretical concepts in condensed matter physics. It’s neat seeing them used in a similar way in music theory!

[@MossBravado]

My thoughts exactly. I would love to see the musical equivalent of the Monster Group put into practice but that might be beyond our comprehension.

[@LeelandCopeland]

YES!!! this inversion and rotational symmetry is what I have been babbling about for the last decade in how you can build chords (and thus progressions) from the descending Locrian root with very wide intervals to create an effect that is similar to progressions based on the ascending Lydian root - thereby getting an ethereal feel from the most 'evil' scale.

[@sharadsemilo]

When you ascending/descending root you mean towards/away from the root? Can you please elaborate

[@LeelandCopeland]

@@sharadsemilo yes, sorry for the delay. In ascending locrian the I chord is B, D, F from lower to higher from the pattern B C D E F G A. In descending locrian, the I chord would be B, G, E from lower to higher from the pattern B A G F E D C (which is just an inverted Em chord but in a scale that forces B to sound as root). Basically, in this line of thinking, inversions do not necessarily maintain their audio equivalency to their non-inverted relative. Some times I become more confusing when I attempt to explain my thoughts, I am sorry if I have made it worse.

[@ValkyRiver]

@@LeelandCopeland By the way, I have been exploring 19-TET, which has only a single (octave-repeating) mode of limited transposition. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gmndnISmacqappI

[@markmeckes9261]

There's also a much more familiar example of truncations of scales: we talk about major/minor pentatonic scales as their own thing all the time, even though they are truncations of the ordinary major/minor scales.

[@destianpatrianagara1119]

Ride scale Life good Scale fight back *KILL SCALE!!* Scale gone Regret.

[@Producelikeapro]

Fantastic video! This is the best video on this subject I've ever seen!

[@MidlifeRenaissanceMan]

The bloke has a way at making stuff make sense both intellectually / mathematically and well as what your ears hear and importantly how you feel when you hear what he is talking about

[@Producelikeapro]

@@MidlifeRenaissanceMan agreed 100%!

[@Rattiar]

This is also true for me, but it is honestly the FIRST video on the subject I have ever seen. ;) But that makes it excellent, too. Thanks, 12Tone for introducing me to so many cool new ways of looking at music.

[@MidlifeRenaissanceMan]

@@Producelikeapro Its giving language to what is happening when you play notes together, and thus opening new approaches to evoking emotions, building tension and knowing how you can take the listener on a journey of expectations that surprises them with the unexpected, yet is ultimately satisfying. Too many people want to fill in the space and resolve all too quickly. I love to finish a set with a song that ends on Chord IV

[@MidlifeRenaissanceMan]

@@Rattiar he has a knack of explaining something succinctly, yet comprehensively. Dude's got some really good stuff going on between his ears

[@Skip6235]

“It’s a palindrome” *draws a taco cat* Well played

[@SAHanson]

If you're not already aware, what you were describing was basically a mathematical group generated by a set of intervals acting on a set of tones. It's a pretty fundamental area of mathematics I would suggest checking out if you're interested in this sort of thing.

[@NeilCrouse99]

3:19... And I think this is what has made the best music for millennia. That's the beauty and magic of music. When you like something, BUT DON'T KNOW WHY?? As an armature musician, I've found that when the secret to a song is reveled, it tends to change the "Magic", feeling once obtained by just listening and enjoying without analyzing. *An example for myself would be learning a song that has unusual timing. I'm a base player and when learning some of the "RUSH" catalogue of work, (Getty Lee has AMAZING chops). RUSH had songs that involve Intros and verses are composed out of ten bars in 5/8, other parts are in 11/8. Once I learned to count them out it changed the way I felt about the song. It lost a little "Magic"... However, I did gain intrigue and a new, much deeper outlook of these songs that I didn't possess prior to learning the song timings, so I guess there was is a payoff after all.. LOL. Peace from Canada all...* *: )*

[@gautiermilewski4322]

I didn't necessarily care about this specific topic, I just watch all the videos you put out because I take it for granted that it's going to be interesting and it never disappoints.

[@ashleycrane415]

My brain hasn't been turned this far inside out since I first started watching Adam Neely as a music theory novice. Thanks dude! I'm going to watch this again so some of sinks in.

[@possible-realities]

One reason to include a scale even though it's a subset of another scale is because it has more symmetry. Like the whole tone and octatonic/diminshed scales are subsets of mode 7, but they have much more symmetry, so are much more ambiguous.

[@Teirusu155]

8:46 - Mode 7 is also a SNES function for skewing graphics.

[@MrDevin1125]

I like the melody you composed at the beginning. Sounds a bit like if Tom Waits tried to write late 60s baroque pop

[@leftaroundabout]

There's a lot of valid criticism to be put against recommendation algorithms like the one used by KZbin, but complaining that it “doesn't reward niche content” and using that as an argument to switch to a platform with no algorithm at all makes no sense. On the contrary, that's actually the one thing going _for_ such algorithms: that they manage to find an audience even for niche material. _Of course_ there won't be millions of people watching a video about Messiaen's modes. If they did, it wouldn't be niche anymore. Yet there are _some_ people watching it. Now, some of these may have explicitly searched for Messiaen. Many just follow your channel. But some will also have shown an interest in related topic and then get this recommendation, even though they didn't know about Messiaen at all. Again, that's not saying KZbin is perfect. But none of its problems are really fixed by Nebula. In fact the closed nature makes it much worse IMO. The copyright debacles on KZbin are a big issue, but it is a _political_ one that Nebula can't fix in the long run. The fact the Google tracks out every move (with KZbin just one of its tentacles) is horrible, but if Nebula wants to fix that it needs to put transparency first. The closed subscription model is the opposite of a fix here. For now, KZbin + Patreon is the best there is. I can absolutely see how creators want something more secure and hope to get it in Nebula, but this way just lies another _commercialisation of indy culture_ trap.

[@gman1515]

"Let's assume for the sake of argument that it's cool" Or we could all just own the fact that it's cool anyway.

[@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721]

Yeah, if you say it confidently enough it's a fact.

[@rupen42]

10:46 Gmaj7(b5)sus4, a.k.a. the opening arpeggio to the Castle Theme of Super Mario World.

[@rupen42]

(ok, there's no maj7 in that theme, but close enough ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

[@ryla22]

Thanks for the nostalgia 😂

[@seiph80]

I *definitely DO* care about topics like these! I enjoy very much your music theory videos, especially these on scales.

[@sihplak]

Interestingly, a truncation of mode 3 is a more commonly used (and named) scale: the augmented scale! It has a repeating pattern of minor-third then half-step (for example, C D# E G Ab B). It's interesting that Messiaen didn't include the augmented scale in his list since he included the whole tone and diminished scales.

[@eustishyre5850]

You talent of so entertainingly explaining why people should appreciate such a niche topic is amazing. I've got a high school band understanding of music with very little actual theory, but this was awesome!! I can't imagine the work that goes into a video like this. You are awesome!!

[@wewladstbh]

omg funny cyclic group actions on sets of notes! so quirky! great vid. Actually yeah there's quite a lot of group theory in here - simple groups and shieeet at 13:30

[@mooseyard]

This is very much group theory, one of the most fundamental parts of mathematics. Group theory studies sets of objects (notes, here) and operations on those objects (like transposition or inversion) and studies the patterns. Common patterns are sequences of operations that result in no change, or that combine to form another operation. You can build arithmetic out of group theory by taking sets of numbers and operations like addition, but groups show up in so many other places like crystals and Rubik's cubes and clocks…

[@MatejNovakCreative]

I understand your comment about mass appeal, but this is one of my favourite videos of yours ever. I may need to watch it a few times to really grok it. Thanks for keeping on rocking.

[@lorenzodicapo6305]

Grok. Damn. Haven't heard that in years.

[@mathewdallaway]

I've been fascinated with these modes since reading the book years ago. This is a great exposition and critique. I didn't notice any of the "holes" in the structure when reading. So today I learned. I guess I'l have to go back to playing in the modes...

[@mattgilbert7347]

Messiaen. Takes me back. It's been so long I can't remember if I have mispelled his name. I recall he used to notate birdsong.

[@mschmidt62]

I had heard of Messiaen's MOLTs and had some idea of how they worked, but never had the time to seek out more knowledge. (Music is just a hobby, and who has time for fully developing ones hobbies?) But you have made it all perfectly clear in just 17 minutes (or less--I zoned out once you started the Nebula stuff--I'm already signed up for Nebula).

[@clemerrolpearson3470]

I'm a graduate student in conducting and I've just been thinking about Messiaen a lot lately, so this is perfect timing! Thank you!

[@askyle]

Great video as usual 👍 I think that the word "invariance" would be a more apt description of what's going on here than "impossibility"; ie if transposing a scale leaves you with the same set of notes, that makes it "invariant under transposition"; this is in general deeply connected to the idea of symmetry, as you indeed pointed out.

[@luxinveritate3365]

Invariance is the right word for it, mostly in serial music. I have written for various, invariant rows. I think he calls it impossible for colloquial use and understanding.

[@Elim_Garak]

I DO like your Mode 3 composition, and would love to hear it further fleshed out. If you don’t, I’m certainly going to try to develop variations on it. Thank you for all the years of remarkably great content.

[@rome8180]

I love videos like this because they help me break out of compositional ruts. My goal when I learn an uncommon scale is to use it in a way that makes it accessible as possible. The results are usually interesting.

[@Chaosphere333]

Love this video! I've been trying to implement the 3rd mode into my guitar playing and it is really fun to mess around with

[@trioofone8911]

As a reformed classicist that has been slowly transmogrifying into a folk musician for the last several decades (think Kafka's roach, but musically. Lol), I find this kind of navel gazing fascinating. I might sit down and drill interesting edgy modes like this on my violin--I might even compose something that uses all that intellectually satisfying structural imposition--then I take my fiddle (same instrument, but the title is related to function, not form) and go to an Irish or Scottish session and rediscover the joy of just playing simple melodies with others while the pint I'm drinking starts settling in, and I think "Messian who?". Seriously though, I love your videos, and I'm just being snobbish (the characteristics of snobbery happens in all kinds of music, btw. Lol). Keep it up: always interesting and useful, and I love them doodles

[@ricardozapata9142]

At 14:15 the subtitles start again from the beginning of the video and it confused me a little bit haha

[@ricardozapata9142]

Also 15:35 … I care!

[@chizchizchiz]

I don't think we should discount the role of pitch inversion in harmony/melody! I remember messing around with this and finding out that a lot of things I really liked were related to this. In particular, my favorite scales were always dorian and the major scale with a lowered 6th, and then I realized much later when I was messing around that these actually have reflection symmetry. Moreover, my favorite chords to alternate between in these scales (d minor G major in d Dorian and D major g minor in the other scale based on D) are also inversions of each other around the tonic! Once I started looking for reflections, they actually showed up naturally much more than I expected

[@iansandon8057]

I love you scale explorations. I don't always understand the deep ramifications, and they explore a level of musicianship/theory far beyond the vague understanding I developed when taking my piano/singing exams, but you always make the concepts coherent and digestible! Thanks 👍

[@timrogers768]

You may have underestimated how much your audience enjoys your approach to the unusual. This is probably my favorite of your videos to date. I must admit that it wouldn't make as much sense if I hadn't seen more but my ignorance was in no way your fault. I love what you do, thank you

[@najrenchelf2751]

"Back to the Drawing Board" has a completely different meaning on this channel and I love it! :D

[@vazqueeziee]

I went into a rabbit hole using messiaen's modes to make music. Currently stuck on Mode 7 and I was looking around for tips. This video gave me a different perspective on how to deal with Mode 7. Thanks man.

[@alnitaka]

I note that scales and chords are inverses of each other. The notes that are not in a major (or any diatonic) scale form a 6-9 chord; for example the inverse of C major is F# A# C# D# G#, F#6-9, the five black notes. I note here that the inverse of Mode 2 is the diminished chord G# B D F, and the inverse of Mode 3 is the augmented chord Ab C E.

[@Phosfit]

I’m new to music composition but I haven’t been so lost while watching one of your videos as this one. Some very inspiring patterns though

[@MattWinkler1]

Keep on exploring the weird and mathematical side of music! I just finished building a guitar in equal-tempered Bohlen-Pierce tuning because of your previous video 🤘

[@sharadsemilo]

Would love to hear it

[@MattWinkler1]

Just finished and uploaded! :)

[@johngriffon2118]

Been watching you on and off for years. I only started learning music seriously a few months ago however. You always did a great job explaining things when i didnt know anything. Your videos are so much more interesting now that i understand theory better. Gonna have to rewatch some of your stuff now lol

[@danielmccready1501]

Relatively obscure music theory is my JAM!

[@AidanMmusic96]

Brilliant summary of a brilliant book! I always wondered why I felt like the tritone was the most important interval in equal temperament (an exact half-octave) and the clock diagram is fabulous.

[@hugo54758]

Olivier doit être très content qu'on prête à ses broutilles autant d'intérêt.

[@1oolabob]

The rhythm (shown around the 2:00 mark in the video) that is the same forward and backward is a common bell part in Malinke/ West African drumming. Just trivia. Carry on.

[@mjears]

Really well explained! The clearest presentation and analysis of Messiaen’s modes and principles I have seen.

[@HeBreaksLate]

I watch your videos not because I am passionate about music but because you are and I enjoy listening people talk about the things they care about.

[@kristas-not]

very cool! i was looking at the intersection of combinatorics and music this morning... then i ran across this :)

[@tebi1kurieudidon172]

I love that book, I haven’t been reading it in a while and Thanks to you I will ! It has inspired me every time I read it. Messiaen FTW.

[@Pr0t4t0]

This is actually the first video I’ve seen on this channel (I think). This is probably my new favorite music theory channel. You were surprisingly easy to follow, have a nice style, and I feel I learned a lot.

[@excitinguniverseofmusictheory]

Well explained! I dislike the lack of rigour in Messaien's menagerie of rotationally symmetrical scales, but like you said, that wasn't the point. Thanks for making videos about these less-popular topics, these niches deserve filling and your work is a valuable resource. Cheers ~

[@replikonresearch7396]

I am exploring alternate tunings on the classical guitar. This is something I've been looking for for very long time. Thank you very much

[@choimdachoim9491]

Since childhood I've been a fan of music that is outside the boundaries of "normal" music, but, there is such a thing as more technical than musical. I just want to listen to music, I don't want to think about it. 5 years in college with a music composer major didn't change that for me.

[@choimdachoim9491]

As an example of "technical, you should study Bartok or (if 74 year old memory serves me right) Schoenberg. When I heard "Rite of Spring" as a teenager, I pretty much stopped listening to Top 40 for a decade or so.

[@caterscarrots3407]

I love your videos and this one's no exception. Mode 1, otherwise known as the Whole Tone Scale is one of 2 of these modes of limited transposition I have used and the other one I have used is the pattern retrograde of Mode 2(Half-Whole Diminished scale instead of Whole-Half). With Mode 2 and it's pattern retrograde, I can get a sort of "This sounds almost like the minor scale" feel to it, because the minor tonic is ingrained into the pattern retrograde of Mode 2. And with the Whole Tone Scale or Mode 1, it has this ethereal, cosmic quality to it. In fact, in an orchestral suite of mine that I am composing and that I based on the astronomy of the solar system, I use the whole tone scale in combination with the major scale in 1 movement, that being the Saturn movement. It just fits, both because of the quality of the scale and because of the hexagon(the planet Saturn has a hexagonal vortex at its north pole). The movement starts in the key of Ab, travels all the way around the hexagon, through Bb, C, D, E and F# and ends back in Ab. All while having a 3 layered structure of major scale harmonies on the bottom, a major scale melody on top, and the whole tone scale sandwiched in the middle. Yes, this means that I have Ab major and Ab augmented chords sounding simultaneously, but because of register, instrumental differences, and rhythmic differences, it's not horrible sounding at all, that major against augmented with the same root.

[@Durmomo0]

OMG you made a "I just think its neat" reference

[@welliamism]

toru takemitsu made extensive use of the third mode throughout his career, definitely worth checking out if you enjoy that sound! also thank you for the wonderful video on the modes of limited transposition, they're a favorite subject of mine

[@seaofglass77]

Honestly, I prefer videos like this over and LLCs of pop and classic rock songs. Those videos are awesome too, but I love this deep dirty theory stuff.

[@segmentsAndCurves]

14:07 I love how you transition from the theory to the musicality part. A sign of a great video indeed ^^

[@nickhelldorfer8174]

Thank you for the discussion of these lesser known (at least to me) modes. It’s refreshing hearing and being introduced to scales and modes outside of major and minor tonalities, and honestly inspiring.

[@Racosz]

There are five basic forms to divide the octave into equal parts (NOTE: Existence of octave equivalence, enharmonic equivalence and 12 tone equal temperament is assumed in order to understand this) FIRST BASIC FORM - TRITONE - 12 semitones divided by 2 equal parts = 6. The result of this division indicates the number of semitones needed to divide the octave into 2 equal parts. The result of the division also indicates the number of transpositions of these scales (T0, T1, T2, T3, T4, T5) Any intervallic pattern (measured in semitones) whose sum is 6 generates a mode of limited transposition. For instance: 1+5 (and its rotation 5+1) 2+4 (and its rotation 4+2) 1+1+4 (and its rotations 1+4+1/4+1+1) -------------------- Messiaen's Mode 5 1+2+3 (and its rotations 2+3+1/3+1+2) 2+1+3 (and its rotations 1+3+2/3+2+1) 1+1+1+3 (and its rotations 1+1+3+1/1+3+1+1/3+1+1+1) -------------------- Messiaen's Mode 4 1+1+2+2 (and its rotations 1+2+2+1/2+2+1+1/2+1+1+2/1+1+2+2) -------------------- Messiaen's Mode 6 1+1+1+1+2 (and its rotations 1+1+1+2+1/1+1+2+1+1/1+2+1+1+1/2+1+1+1+1) -------------------- Messiaen's Mode 7 SECOND BASIC FORM - AUGMENTED TRIAD - 12 semitones divided by 3 equal parts = 4. The result of this division indicates the number of semitones needed to divide the octave into 3 equal parts. The result of the division also indicates the number of transpositions of these scales (T0, T1, T2, T3) Any intervallic pattern (measured in semitones) whose sum is 4 generates a mode of limited transposition. For instance: 1+3 (and its rotation 3+1) 1+1+2 (and its rotations 1+2+1/2+1+1) -------------------- Messiaen's Mode 3 THIRD BASIC FORM - DIMINISHED CHORD - 12 semitones divided by 4 equal parts = 3. The result of this division indicates the number of semitones needed to divide the octave into 4 equal parts. The result of the division also indicates the number of transpositions of these scales (T0, T1, T2) Any intervallic pattern (measured in semitones) whose sum is 3 generates a mode of limited transposition. For instance: 1+2 (and its rotation 2+1) -------------------- Messiaen's Mode 2 FOURTH BASIC FORM - WHOLE TONE SCALE - 12 semitones divided by 6 equal parts = 2. The result of this division indicates the number of semitones needed to divide the octave into six equal parts. The result of the division also indicates the number of transpositions of these scales (T0, T1) -------------------- Messiaen's Mode 1 FIFTH BASIC FORM - CHROMATIC SCALE- 12 semitones divided by 12 equal parts = 1. The result of this division indicates the number of semitones needed to divide the octave into twelve equal parts. The result of the division also indicates the number of transpositions of these scales (T0). This scale only can be divided into intervals smaller than the semitone (quarter tones, etc) In brief, there are 16 sonorities (included the 5 basic forms listed above) with limited transposition: 7 modes of limited transposition by Messiaen and 9 remaining sonorities which are truncations of Messiaen's modes. If you are familiar with pc set theory or another combinatory tool, you can trace another interesting properties of these modes. Playing and transposing these modes is the best method to catch their particular essence. Greetings from Bogotá, Colombia. Excellent KZbin channel.

[@gregoryshipley4637]

My professional training is in math not music. I love listening to how you explain theory. It has the beauty of the geometry expressed across the medium of time and frequency rather than space.

[@broderick7932]

this video is a bit beyond me, but now i’ve discovered some really beautiful music. Thank You.

[@jackwastakenx2]

This feels like minute physics but music and the pictures aren’t erased

[@shacharh5470]

As a fan of Messiaen and of unconventional scales, this video was fascinating for me. I don't know how well it will do on youtube as you said, but in my opinion it's one of your best.

[@michellestoaevertsson3830]

I've been thinking about the Curiosity Stream deal for a while, and I decided to get it today. I might get it for someone else too. It feels good to get to support this channel. I'm not even musically literate. Most of what you say goes over my head. I just love the way you think and talk, and even though it's not really the right level for me, I still think I learn some stuff.

[@joex9865]

I love your videos. They give me a new way to look at music. I use the first three modes, but I don't think of them as scales, but rather extended arpeggios (I seldom play scales)

[@davidandrs3535]

Love the "useless" while drawing a stormtrooper xD

[@ToastyBoy17]

Reasons to subscribe: Other people: the neat and obscure niche of music are interesting Me: drawing Cell to represent a music cell you’re using to make a scale 😎

[@joedellinger9437]

9:10 Oh my! A reference to the cult 60’s sci-fi series “The prisoner”!!! The penny farthing bike with a parasol!

[@mymo_in_Bb]

I'm really glad to have stumbled across this video. I'm planning to write some music with one of Sappho's poems as lyrics, and I wanted to include some modal spiciness. I was disappointed to find that lesbian, the dialect of Greek that Sappho spoke, was a form of Aeolian, so I'd have to use some other mode for modal spiciness. This is definitely worth experimenting with.

[@mattrowntree9369]

A penny farthing from The Prisoner for "six"? Well played, sir. Well played.

[@mattstarwolf08]

"That gives us really cool options" Draws a picture of McDonalds.

[@mikevanderwolf8575]

It’s more exciting than the commercials on tv….in breaks during a bad football game. So there is that.

[@iolandad.381]

Somewhere midway through the video my eyes glazed over and my mind blanked, your voice is THAT relaxing

[@maskedmallard537]

The algorithm somehow magically brought me here and I've never clicked on something so fast! Keep putting out whatever content you want. We're here for it.

[@ossiehalvorson7702]

You cover obscure topics I wouldn't hear about from anyone else. That's what led me to actually subscribe to you, which it should be noted that I subscribe to very few people, I don't want my front page polluted with every person begging for subscribers.. but I am literally always interested when I see you put up a new video.

[@markop.1994]

I didnt notice if it was mentioned but I got a scale that i use alot when im by myself that has some tonal ambiguity. Its actually more of a tonality because im using multiple scales technically but i digress. In E: E F G# A# B D. It is equally in E and A# at the same time like this. If i want to emphasize that its E i will add C or C# accordingly If i want to emphasize that its A# (which i would rethink as Bb to avoid double sharps like this: Bb Cb D E F Ab) i would add Gb or G. I will sometimes (when playing in this tonality) even play notes Gb and C at the same time to emphasize both scales at once, then play B fully diminished chord (functions as the 5 of both E and A#/Bb) to "resolve" to an E Petruska chord (Bb major triad and E major triad at the same time) *warning this resolution is cacophonous; inviting chaos, delusions of power. May cause madness. Use sparingly.*

[@pjillett]

I completely agree with AJ, this video was perfectly fascinating As an ethnomusicologist composer it has sparked creative ideas. Thank you.

[@williamchamberlain2263]

I have no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds great. Thanks, magic music man.

[@Rubrickety]

Props for the 🌮 🐈 doodle. Made me laugh.

[@randyvillars1778]

Very well presented. Very clear and forward moving in a logical way. Thank you!

[@tartaruga42]

Great video as always. My only suggestion is it would have been cool if you showed us a direct example of the modes/rhythms, etc in Messiaen's music as you're explaining. I don't know if it would make KZbin's monetization system upset though

[@rosalinaenjoyer9810]

Found this channel in my recommended and can't stop watching, keep up the good work man

[@GeorgeZwierzchowskipianomusic]

last page of Liszts sospiro is definately mode 2 over many bars in a languid harp arpeggio that runs through 4 tonalities symetrically. he also used it in passing in his sonata but there its more a harmonic event.

[@ConvincingPeople]

You can get some really odd and interesting modes of limited transposition in non-12 equal divisions of the octave, particularly ones with a couple of different "half-step" equivalents. 50-EDO in particular might be worth exploring in this respect, being essentially an extended meantone scale rich in some really strange xenharmonic intervals. 72-EDO is another, although maybe as a multiple of 12 it's kind of a cheat.

[@ecifircas5477]

I’ve been looking for new composers to get me out of a creative rut, I think I’m gonna check this guy out!

[@rasmusn.e.m1064]

This is so cool! This video single-handedly got me out of a big rut :D

[@Gwyll_Arboghast]

there are more scales that allow transpositions which maintain tonality, if you are not restricted to octave regularity. for instance a simple repeating tetrachord

[@chizchizchiz]

I would argue that transposition in pitch space is not analogous to reflection for rhythms; the analogue of transposition should just be delay for a rhythm (or I guess shifting around a cycle if you have a loop); essentially, the "rhythms of limited transposition" would just be rhythms which repeat after a short amount. Which I feel like are important and do come up. And on the other hand I would argue that reflecting rhythms is analogous to reflecting pitches; I *do* think you can hear that reflected pitches are related, even though you get something essentially new, which is what happens when you reflect rhythms. When you transpose pitches, it seems much more "the same", and that's another reason I would argue that the analogue in rhythm is shifting in time/delaying. Anyway, that's a weird thing to fixate on maybe. I just have thought too much about symmetry in music probably. Thanks for the nice video!

[@bobblues1158]

Who came first Messiaen or Slonimsky? The Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns contains all of Messiaen´s modes. Jazz musicians have been using these materials as long as these materials have been published. Joseph Schillinger is worth a look at. Jazz guys will not think this material is obscure. Frank Zappa was into this for sure. I myself am fascinated by systems. Thank you for putting this up!