1948

As the Israeli-Palestinian conflict enters its darkest chapter in decades, both sides are evoking the same foundational moment in their past: the events of 1948.
David K. Shipler, a former Jerusalem bureau chief for The New York Times and the author of a Pulitzer Prize-winning book about the conflict, discusses the meaning and reality of what happened that year.
Guest: David K. Shipler, author of “Arab and Jew: Wounded Spirits in a Promised Land.”
Background reading:
• Recent violence in an Israeli town carries bitter echoes of the past for Palestinians (www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/wo...) .
• From the archive: Israel declares independence (archive.nytimes.com/learning....) on May 14, 1948.
For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily (nytimes.com/thedaily?smid=pc-t...) . Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

[@bobanrajowic]

Finnish people were expelled from the territories occupied by the Soviets in 1940. Some left voluntarily, because they didn’t want to live under Soviet occupation. Stalin also expelled Poles from western Ukraine and Ukrainians from eastern Poland, Germans - from Czechoslovakia and East Prussia. It’s a tragedy, it’s a barbarianism. It’s unfair. But when the war is over you have a choice: to build your life on the land you have, or try to take a revenge. Finns made their choice, they live a normal life and don’t dream about returning the city of Viipuri. An alternative choice is an eternal revenge, blood feud, no compromise, “holy land of ancestors”, “our graves are there”, “our boys died for that land, don’t let them die in vain”, so on. This is a road to hell. We now see this hell in the Middle East.

[@noalevylive]

I did not know that! Thank you for the insight

[@tanjalauramarketta]

Excellent background package! I will recommend this as a must listen to all I know who have no grasp of the complexity of the situation.

[@anglesoflife8526]

The New York time podcast not only teaches you a lot embedded history but also help you to sleep, what a legend…..

[@karenmorris674]

I am glad that the topic of how the narratives we humans create have SO MUCH power and how we resist having to modify these narratives. These narratives become our reality.

[@johnd2058]

I'm sure this comments section will be nothing but insightful or otherwise decent comments.

[@__Andrew_]

QUESTION to john... do some NYT subscribers get early access? by KZbin's math you left your comment 3 hours before piece was uploaded 😊 btw prediction holding true 23 hrs later.

[@__Andrew_]

PLEEEEASE.. a few less HUMS 24:25. 24:31. 30:43. 34:28. 34:49 35:02. 38:45 But thats trivia, and otherwise i echo all the many very positive comments about the quality of this interview thank you

[@johnd2058]

@@__Andrew_I'm subscribed to the channel, that's it.

[@michaelcorner3861]

Well done. Israelis have generally accepted the work of Benny Morris and others in their view of the standard narrative, with the exception of certain zealots and extremists. It's quite noteworthy that the Palestinians have never had a Benny Morris; their narrative is absolutely unchanged, as noted here.

[@tapsimavinkeredayanand8454]

The fact that there is a Benny Morris itself is a triumph of Israeli society. Where is the Palestinian myth buster? If there was one, maybe peace would be within reach

[@Veritas891]

What are the Palestinian myths that should be broken? It seems the critique of their view based on this podcast is that they believe they were all driven out of their homes by the Israeli's, when in reality only some of them were driven out and the others left because of the Israeli massacres. I think this is a distinction without a real difference. In either case, the Israeli's never let these people return home.

[@ledaswan5990]

Well Edward Said,Norman Finkelstein,Ilan Papé and many others have written extensively from a Palestinian perspective.

[@stefan4159]

@@ledaswan5990 That's not the point. There are plenty of prominent Israeli historians who are criticizing the general Zionist /Western narrative. Are there any prominent Palestinian historians who even question the Palestinian/Arab/Islamist narrative? I think not.

[@noalevylive]

They actually perpetuate the myth

[@robertmusil5831]

Question for David Shipler. In the NYT letters page of May 17 2021 you related a 1981 on-the-record conversation with Israel’s military governor of Gaza, Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev who stated that he was giving money to the Muslim Brotherhood, the precursor of Hamas, on the instruction of the Israeli authorities. On March 28 1981, you mentioned this episode in passing in paragraph 14 of your piece titled "UNDER GAZA'S CALM SURFACE: DEATH, DRUGS, INTRIGUE". In 2021, you wrote that "judging by a distressed phone call I got later from the army spokesman, General Segev’s superiors were not happy with his disclosure of a practice that did not look very clever, even at the time." How frequently do NYT reporters receive phone calls (distressed or otherwise) from the IDF? And what influence does this have on the self-described "newspaper of record" and its apparent propensity since 1967 to act as a stenographer for an army of illegal occupation? Thank you.

[@MrAbuYaz]

Quite legal. Jordan initiated fighting. Try learning history.

[@KW-hk2jd]

That was incredibly informative, thank you.

[@dakdak612]

The deir yessin massacre was not as simply as he put it. It was an operation done with fire on both sides due to a blockade by Arabs

[@user-ut6ji8my2h]

Superb Content. There are always three sides to every story. One guys side, the other guys side, and the TRUTH! Thank you!

[@LeannaHeiman-nh5oe]

This was the best, most objective description of the two opposing narratives by both Israel and Palestine that I’ve heard since the recent fighting began after the October 7th attack by Hamas on Israeli citizens.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

DOUBT. I havn't watched it yet, but you're talking about an organization that propagandizes heavily for Hamas.

[@LeannaHeiman-nh5oe]

@@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat I would encourage you to listen to some of The Daily’s episodes immediately following the attack on Israel, “Golan’s Story” and “Hamas Took Her Son” which paint a very different picture than what you describe. Start with listening before you make an opinion.

[@axaeyexus]

​@@twelvecatsinatrenchcoatThe apologists for Arab colonist terrorism clap like seals for anything that reifies their prejudice

[@robertmusil5831]

David Shipler's "Arab and Jew: Wounded Spirits in a Promised Land” claims that Israel's frequent recourse to war is conducted "with a quiet strain of melancholy" whereas, for the Arabs, "war is integral to the conduct of human affairs." I guess those pesky Palestinians must be intrinsically violent, right Dave? Mr Shipler's refined racism might be obvious but at least his linguistic expertise on the region is more even handed. After all this seasoned observer of the region speaks neither Arabic nor Hebrew.

[@DrTomMD]

David’s book is fantastic. Originally read it decades ago and re-reading updated version now. David deserves the level of recognition Tom Friedman has. Arab & Jew is better IMO than From Beirut to Jerusalem.

[@stevereal-]

Extremely powerful piece. Even though the idea of focusing on the Middle East after 20 years of war makes me want to hurl! 🤢🤮. I absolutely loved ❤ this one. The policy of truth.

[@jimmiller1686]

Excellent discussion, but it's pretty obvious that the Palestinians left their homes under duress. The Israelis chose to come to Palestine and chose to set up a state. The Palestinians left, either in fear for their lives or by force. Had it not been for the Israelis, the Palestinians would still be in their historical homeland.

[@ronnynoneofyourbusinessgoo7892]

Exactly, the Israelis were victims of Nazis, definitely, and surrounding Arab states, maybe, and the Palestinians were victims of Israelis. So this isn't exactly equivalent. This makes a huge difference. I'm German, Israel could probably drop a bomb on Berlin today and there is a sense where this is still completely understandable. But what they do to Palestinians just doesn't fly. Take the case of individuals not groups or nations, many violent criminals or sex offenders experienced violence. That usually part of the picture. No on concludes these get to go around now and brutalize strangers.

[@bordedup546]

True but with many caveats: If jews didn't flee Europe to Israel before start of holocaust, an overwhelming majority would've died. Many Palestinians still live in their historic homelands within Israel as citizens and most within their historic lands of Gaza and West bank, albeit without statehood and under a terrible occupation. After the end of the British mandate, a Palestinian state was also supposed to be created in parallel to Israel but it was simply occupied by it's arab neighbours and only Israel survived. If the jews died in the holocaust and modern day Israel + occupied Palestine was solely populated by Palestinians and native jews, there are no guarantees that the state, after the end of the British mandate, wouldn't today be split up and occupied by: Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon. It's actually a really interesting counterfactual, in my opinion, because it highlights how fragile the position of palestinian statehood has always been. I would hope in the long term they can undergo the same state building that Israel did because only then can they negotiate and maintain their state from a position of strength rather than weakness and I would dearly hope it would also be a democratic state. However, it must feel nearly impossible to do this under corrupt leaders, terrorist dictatorships, Israeli occupation, Israeli bombardment and devastating civilian losses every couple of years.

[@noalevylive]

Wow! That was on point and we’ll articulated. Thank you

[@arettalayne3635]

Only the Israelis had weapons given to them by the US and Britain.

[@jimmiller1686]

The UN voted in 1948 to end the British mandate and partition Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. In the vote at the UN Palestine had no representation and no vote. All of the Arab countries who were in the UN voted against the partition. North America, most of Latin America and all of Western Europe voted in favor of partition. The Palestinians and Arabs rejected the UN vote on the basis that it ignored the right of self-determination as spelled out in the UN Charter. So when Israel declared its independence a group of Arab countries went to war over the issue. My only point here is that I think the journalist in the video understates the stress that the Palestinians were under in 1948. It should come as no surprise that they are upset, and that a small radical nutso minority is acting barbaric today. @@bordedup546

[@axaeyexus]

Note how he conveniently leaves out the 45,000 Jews expelled by the Arab colonizers from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza who weren't allowed to return to their homes. Hmm. Curious why he doesn't mention this.

[@Veritas891]

In the early 1900's, Jews made up less than 10% of the population of Mandatory Palestine. By 1947, they made up about one third of the population and owned about 7% of the land. It's easy to see why the native Arabs there were upset by the UN plan to give 56% of the land to the Jews. Especially those Arabs who made up 45% of the proposed Jewish state. You make it sound like the 1948 plan drawn up by the UN was perfectly reasonable and fair to both sides, and the Arab countries were completely unjustified in their response. I think it's important to add this context.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

The plan was perfectly reasonable, even if it wasn't fair to the Arabs living in Palestine. Keep in mind, "Palestine" is a British idea. "Palestine" is a Roman province, not an Ottoman one. The Ottoman province in 1918 was called like "Greater Syria," and the region we call Palestine was a small part of that, with three separated little fiefdoms along the coast. From the Brit's perspective, they were giving one tiny part of the former Ottoman Empire's land to a population of Jewish Refugees who were living in some parts of it. It was unfair to the people living in those lands, but it's not like they stole someone's state from them. Palestinian Arab Nationalism was a response to the partition.

[@misslaithy]

@@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat that's an interesting statement: reasonable but not fair!! So if Ukrainians fleeing the horror of Russia descend on - let's say Michigan- and over 30 years, they become 30% of the population, it would be reasonable to make Michigan a new country for Ukrainians and kick out the Americans from the land they own and it would be reasonable but not fair?

[@beverlystraus9300]

The Arabs received slightly less land back in the 1947 UN proposal; however, the land the Arabs did receive was of better quality ( more fertile, ex) whereas much of the land given to the Jews were arrid, malaria ridden, literal locusts raided & desert land. The Jews were so desperate for a homeland, they accepted the UN's proposal.

[@Veritas891]

I agree that from the British and Israeli perspective their plan was perfectly reasonable. I also agree with you that their plan wasn't fair to the Arabs living in Palestine. Why not give the Jewish refugees part of England rather than Palestine? After all, in 1945 there were roughly the same number of Jews in Great Britain as there were in Palestine. @@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat

[@Veritas891]

That's a fair point but it makes sense why the Jews were happy with the 1947 UN proposal. Before, they effectively owned 7% of the land, and after the UN's decision, they had over 50%. Even if their half wasn't as good of land, it still seems like a pretty sweet deal for them.@@beverlystraus9300

[@thehumburger6009]

Hmmm

[@jenniferzitomer5892]

Conveniently left out of this conversation are the 700,00 Jewish refugees from Arab countries who were forced out, often with only the clothes on their back, from Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Tunisia, parts of Morocco, Algeria, etc. Essentially we had an exchange of refugees and do not anticipate sending their descendants back to those countries in the eventuality of a peace agreement. Many of these countries were Nazi collaborators and had subjected the Jewish populations within to pogroms and suffering comparable to much of what happened in Europe during the 1930's.

[@lincolnm3890]

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK

[@Greywind30]

Israeli give many chances to end this conflict peacefully but each time they got violence in return

[@Magani79]

Good content apart from the moaning

[@keep-ukraine-free]

Very simplistic to say "both sides are victims". In 1948, both sides underwent unequal victim-hood. But after 70+ years of Israeli domination & apartheid over Palestinians (who've NEVER had a govt the world recognizes)... the truth is: *Israel WAS a victim in 1948, but no longer (it has a govt strengthening Israelis). Palestinians WERE and STILL ARE victims.*

[@TWE_2000]

Its also clear after 70 years that the majority of Palestinians and their leadership don't want peace and coexistence but unconditional victory and Israel's elimination. Palestinians were given their own de facto state and government in Gaza when they Israel pulled out under pressure from the Bush administration trying to show that a 2 state solution could work. Instead Hamas was elected and fired 10,000 rockets into Israel. As long as Palestinians give Israel only the choice between occupation/blockade and being destroyed, Israelis will choose to continue the occupation/blockade every single time. When you demand all or nothing, you get nothing

[@guythetechguy]

Israel stopped thinking of itself as the victim while Palestinians have decided to stay victims- and for many years the Arab countries, especially Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria worked hard to make sure the Palestinians remain stuck being victims. 70+ years of terrorist attacks and indiscriminate violence from the Palestinians and Arabs and ofcourse it's all Israel's fault. Before 1967 when Israel had zero control over the west bank and Gaza and Israeli Arabs were equal right citizens in Israel there was certainly no "apartheid".

[@chasingdharmaify]

@@guythetechguyIsrael's government is currently playing the victim via far right ideology and mass slaughter.

[@misslaithy]

@@guythetechguy no one chooses to be a victim. If you lived 2 consecutive days like the daily lives of Palestinians over the past 70 years, you would think very differently. Try living under an occupation, having your home randomly razed by the occupying army, have your children grabbed by soldiers and thrown in jail, not being allowed to walk in the same side of the street as your occupier.

[@guythetechguy]

@@misslaithy The Tibetans are oppressed by the Chinese and last I checked they don't go around firing rockets, kidnapping babies and beheading random people. The way you put it is like the Palestinians spent all these 70 years (and years before) being peace loving gentle folks and only now have started attacking Jews and Israelis. The reality is they did this 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 40 years ago, 70 years ago, 90 years ago, 150 years ago. etc. 95% of the blame is on them. So yes, you act violently, you get thrown in jail and your life is going to be miserable. Especially against a much stronger side. I would guarantee to you that if the tables would be reversed I would not engage in what the Palestinians engage in. What was the excuse for the Hebron massacre of 1929? -19 years of occupation?

[@jannichi6431]

Rashida Talib understands this issue and represents her district knowing so. Please support her rather than undermine her and ridicule her. Marjorie Green is relentless and uninformed, as usual.

[@axaeyexus]

TraSShida has no place to speak on anything.

[@amiramaz]

Rashida is terror hungry Islamist

[@eiyumats6218]

1948? Hard to know the contents without listening. A better title is needed.

[@ili626]

Ceasefire!

[@axaeyexus]

No.

[@amirhandzel8602]

The ignorance of this "expert" is astounding. The war of 1948 in fact has two distinct phases, the first started on 30 Nov 1947 with a broad war wages by the Arab community of Israel-Palestine on its Jews and it lasted till mid April 1948. This is when the majority of Arabs fled from the war-- not deported -- based on historical records. Only in May 1948 did several Arab armies invade Israel in order to annihilate it, which they nearly succeeded.

[@arettalayne3635]

That whole thing you just said is ridiculous.

[@patriciuss5743]

Starting with, “The ignorance of this ‘expert’ is astounding” is a tell. Ignorance, if any, should be ‘shown’ if you are worthy of a seat at the table. If you are going to claim, “This is when the majority of Arabs fled from the war” some reference beyond, “historical records” is useful to persuading anyone.

[@noalevylive]

Indeed, two phases. Here’s Wikipedia- The war had two main phases, the first being the 1947-1948 civil war, which began on 30 November 1947,[19] a day after the United Nations voted to adopt the Partition Plan for Palestine, which divided the territory into Jewish and Arab sovereign states, and an international Jerusalem (UN Resolution 181). Partition was accepted by the Jewish leadership, but rejected by Palestinian Arab leaders and the Arab states.[20] This phase of the war is described by historians as the "civil", "ethnic" or "intercommunal" war, as it was fought mainly between Jewish and Palestinian Arab militias, supported by the Arab Liberation Army and the surrounding Arab states. Characterised by guerrilla warfare and terrorism, it escalated at the end of March 1948 when the Jews went on the offensive and concluded with their defeating the Palestinians in major campaigns and battles, establishing clear frontlines. During this period the British still maintained a declining rule over Palestine and occasionally intervened in the violence.[21][22] The British terminated the Mandate at midnight at the end of 14 May 1948. On that day, the last remaining British troops and personnel departed the city of Haifa and the Jewish leadership in Palestine declared the establishment of the State of Israel. This was followed the next day by the invasion of Palestine by the surrounding Arab armies and expeditionary forces. The invasion marked the beginning of the second phase of the war, the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The Egyptians advanced on the southern coastal strip and were halted near Ashdod; the Jordanian Arab Legion and Iraqi forces captured the central highlands of Palestine. Syria and Lebanon fought several skirmishes with the Israeli forces in the north. The Jewish militias, organised into the Israel Defense Forces, managed to halt the Arab forces. The following months saw fierce fighting between the IDF and the Arab armies, which were being slowly pushed back. The Jordanian and Iraqi armies managed to maintain control over most of the central highlands of Palestine and capture East Jerusalem, including the Old City. Egypt's occupation zone was limited to the Gaza Strip and a small pocket surrounded by Israeli forces at Al-Faluja. In October and December 1948, Israeli forces crossed into Lebanese territory and pushed into Egypt's Sinai Peninsula, encircling the Egyptian forces near Gaza City. The last military activity happened in March 1949, when Israeli forces captured the Negev desert and reached the Red Sea. In 1949, Israel signed separate armistices with Egypt on 24 February, Lebanon on 23 March, Transjordan on 3 April, and Syria on 20 July. During this period the flight and expulsion of the Palestinian Arabs continued. During the war, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were displaced and most of their urban areas were destroyed. Many Palestinian Arabs ended up stateless, displaced either to the Palestinian territories captured by Egypt and Jordan or to the surrounding Arab states; many of them, as well as their descendants, remain stateless and in refugee camps. In the three years following the war, about 700,000 Jews immigrated to Israel from Europe and Arab lands, with one third of them having left or been expelled from their countries of residence in the Middle East.[23][24][25] These refugees were absorbed into Israel in the One Million Plan.[26][27][28][29]