‘This Is How Hamas Is Seeing This’

Here are two thoughts I believe need to be held at once: Hamas’s attack on Oct. 7 was heinous, murderous and unforgivable, and that makes it more, not less, important to try to understand what Hamas is, how it sees itself and how it presents itself to Palestinians.
Tareq Baconi is the author of “Hamas Contained: The Rise and Pacification of Palestinian Resistance (www.sup.org/books/title/?id=2...) ,” one of the best books on Hamas’s rise and recent history. He’s done extensive work interviewing members of Hamas and mapping the organization’s beliefs and structure.
In this conversation, we discuss the foundational disagreement between Hamas and the Palestine Liberation Organization, why Hamas fought the Oslo peace process, the “violent equilibrium” between Hamas and the Israeli right wing, what Hamas’s 2017 charter reveals about its political goals, why the right of return is sacred for many Palestinians (and what it means in practice), how the leadership vacuum is a “core question” for Palestinians, why democratic elections for Palestinians are the first step toward continuing negotiations in the future and more.
Book Recommendations:
The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine (us.macmillan.com/books/978162...) by Rashid Khalidi
Returning to Haifa (canvas.vt.edu/courses/54948/f...) by Ghassan Kanafani
Light in Gaza (www.haymarketbooks.org/books/...) edited by Jehad Abusalim, Jennifer Bing and Mike Merryman-Lotze
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [e-mail].
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

[@jomo39]

Am I the only one who still doesn’t understand how the right of return would work in practice? The guest dances around actually answering.

[@isuckatguitarbut]

It's a theme of most of the discussion around this issue, general notions presented as solutions with no specifics. Usually the solutions are fundamentally untenable, ignore the reality on the ground, and require the Israelis to make massive concessions for essentially nothing in return. Even amongst people who make a living studying this there seems to be a fundamental lack of serious and realistic thinking around how their solutions will work.

[@throwaway-gd7ko]

the same way it works for Jewish people.

[@juschtn]

He wants Israel gone, but knows that's a thing NYT readers are not happy to hear that, so he does not give an answer. He's basically doing the good ol' "I'm going to repeat your question in my own words, it's a very good question, but now I'm answering another question" shtick.

[@takahido]

I think it was relatively clear: Israel reverts to 1967 border lines, Palestinians make East Jerusalem their capital, the “right of return” can look like reparations and be paid rather than granted specifically in land (like Germany did for the jews) - which would double by acknowledging that the nakba did happen. Palestinians would get control of their borders and their economy and military, same as South Africa. And of course the Israeli settlements would need to stop. Then, instead of billions of dollars going to Israel and the US continuing occupation of Palestine they could invest in other industries and Palestinians could have autonomy. And my guess is, since this is the only solution that hasn’t been tried since Israel’s founding, maybe both countries could experience a level of security. And maybe in a hundred years you could have Jews and Arabs living side by side in the place they both call their home country, just like they did historically.

[@nnazem]

​​@@isuckatguitarbut the idea of making mass concessions with nothing in return is not the right way to look at it. Israel made the present absentee law to void any international law regarding ethnic cleansing, and refugee land dispossession. They also knew the settlements in post 1967 were illegal, and dispossessive. It's not a concession when it's deliberately taken and knowingly illegal. Now, the idea of right to return is significantly more complex now that it's 75 years later than when it happened in 1946, 47, or 48. However, PLO was willing to take any form of compensation in lieu of land where someone's house used to be, but Israel has never claimed they are at fault, or in any position to pay people for their dispossession.

[@iillii5]

27:00 so should the Arab countries that waged war on Israel and contributed to the Nakba also contribute through compensation and land allocation?

[@mbarnabeus]

So those arab armies should have just watch while armed zio gangs coming from poland france america..armed to the teeth by colonial west, invaders and in barbaric gruesom way ethnicly cleansed the palestinians just cause a thousands of years old book told them to do so?!

[@barakb1992]

Of course but Baconi could not be more disingenuous. He makes literally every excuse for hamas while claiming not to advocate for them

[@johncarlosburog6924]

But The Arab countries only waged war on Israel three months into the Nakba , let's not lose sight that it was the Zionist settlers who have perpetrated that

[@jbrooks75]

I noticed he didn't answer the question about how alot of groups have been displaced in history thru war and those people had to move on. Nobody is guaranteed a "homeland ". There was a war, they lost multiple times, move on and rebuild. But they won't do that because then their fight would be over and they're freedom fighters, its what they do, fight.

[@danielch6662]

Move on? Move where? Are you offering a piece of your country for them to build new Palestinian on? Or is your country opening its doors for them to emigrate to and assimilate in to? Talk is cheap. It is easy to express a desire that some other country do it. But if your own country is unwilling, then you are not serious.

[@annc883]

Apparently there is a guarantee of a "homeland" through corruptive means such as the Balfour declaration.

[@fst2822]

What I got from that part of the podcast was really why America can never support a right to return. They'd have to give it all back to the Native American population. The right to return is a non-starter and while we can agree that ethically, it's not okay, we also have to agree that it'd be a political nightmare that nobody wants to take on. With good reason. And what's more... Hamas knows this. The right to return might just be a demand they throw out to ensure that peace will never be possible

[@MrBezigebij]

@@danielch6662They were previously welcomed in Kuwait, in Jordan in Lebanon. They incited unrest, tried to overthrow governments and were in part responsible dor a 15 year Civil War, in those countries, so yes, in part you are right, many countries do not want them to come. Also when Israel gave them Gaza to have sovereignty over they turned it into a terrorist base. It’s understandable that trust is more than a little tainted in the region. They could still choose to overthrow Hamas and turn Gaza into a prosperous place it has every potential to be.

[@harrypmay]

⁠@@danielch6662 move on is a phrase, as in, get over it, focus on something new.

[@ronalterman3130]

Wait- First the guest says that Hamas believes that Palestine cannot be divided, that is belongs to the Muslims intact in perpetuity, and then says they made concessions. Seems like contradictory statements to me

[@James-nq8eh]

didn't muslims steal Palestine from the Christians before them?

[@akwenda3678]

Unfortunately, the tells always come to the surface

[@juschtn]

Yeah, guess why.

[@paradox_1729]

Tareq assumes, what HAMAS says politically and what it does on the ground has any connection to each other.

[@MAchannel2024]

Same for the Zionist regime.they never do what they say.

[@yahavrave]

He is a Hamas spokesperson in disguise, not a real scholar of any kind.

[@cassielsbid]

Why is Tareq avoiding or twisting every sensitive question? Mostly by "contextualizing" it.

[@juschtn]

He wants Israel gone, but knows NYT readers are not happy to hear that, so he just refuses to answer.

[@Thenoobestgirl]

Because that's the pattern of speech that these Hamas advocates use to avoid actually addressing the question because they can't answer it without sounding like genocidal sociopaths.

[@usbconnections]

If the MINIMUM demands on the Palestinian side are right of return, as Tareq Baconi suggests, then what's there to negotiate?

[@m9shamalan]

'Our minimum demands are that we want everything' okkkkkkkk then 😐

[@pcolt4]

Peace and justice don't seem like valuable goals to you? Okay then, glad you came out and stated that Israel doesn't care about peace.

[@sambaxrock]

First, do you know what right to return means as it’s negotiated in the past? Second, he clearly said right to return to occupied territory. In case you don’t know, as an exiled Palestinian, you can never live anywhere in the occupied territory. But Jewish settler can move right into a Palestinian village and claim as his ancestral land.

[@m9shamalan]

@@sambaxrock i think most sensible people think the jewish settlers are wrong and israel is wrong to allow that to happen. but in any case, in any conceivable two state solution, both states must have control over who enters their borders. so this problem would be solved.

[@miatomi]

@@m9shamalan either most sensible israelis do not believe that or there aren't many sensible israelis, because settlement has only increased, not lessened, and it shows no sign of stopping, even after netanyahu

[@cassielsbid]

49:45 Why the hell should the PA speak on behalf of Israeli citizens of Arab descent? That's the most direct recipe for a disaster. Just like Hitler spoke on behalf of Germans in Czechoslovakia or Putin on behalf of Russians in Ukraine.

[@shoshanakirya-ziraba8216]

A Palestinian "concession" is offering something that they never even had. Miscalculated their strategic position for an entire century straight.

[@sanyaolaleye8710]

Black Africans came to the Americans in chains the concession by white Americans to make them full citizens was a strategic mistake since freedom was never something they had in America, I would hope you agree with this.

[@marcellobinetti5329]

About the latest version of their charter, Baconi says basically that Hamas was offering a truce (until the next war) not peace

[@GerardPerry]

"Hudna" is Arabic for surrender to the head choppers.

[@markhammer643]

It is conspicuous that nowhere in this discussion is Iran mentioned. It is as if the ONLY two players in this are Israel and Palestinians, with a side-order of the U.S. Yet the reason why the Occupied territories exist was a result of Soviet encouragement of surrounding nations to attack Israel in '67 and '73, and the subsequent need for a buffer zone to prevent further attack. At present Hamas is supported by Iran and Hezbollah largely an organ of Iran. Does your guest realistically expect that Iran, and any other parties who treat Palestinians as a "lever" they can use, would take a back seat and say "Well, that's *their* problem now, and we'll just stay out of it and leave it up to them to sort out."? In this respect I find him thoughtful, but hopelessly naive and unrealistic.

[@scarletsletter4466]

This is right. In truth, both of these peoples (Israelis & Palestinians) are trapped in alliances that prevent peace, even if they themselves wanted peace. But of course they don’t. The US & the West values Israel as an important regional ally. In exchange for aid, trade & protection, Israel is tasked to serve as custodian of the holy land. That means maintain secular democracy, keep the sacred sites safe for all tourists, & serve as defense/ intelligence ally. Unless Israel fails on that mandate, it will always exist & be protected. So the “Palestinian cause” of eradicating Israel is a pipe dream, just a way for Iran to weaken the US reputation on the global stage

[@markhammer643]

@@scarletsletter4466 Not meant as a criticism of yourself, but I bristle at the use of the term "Israelis" or "Israel". Netanyahu, and the shaky coalition he has cobbled together is not representative of "Israel", any more than Donald Trump was "America" or Hamas is "Palestinians". I keep reminding people that Netanyahu is only PM because Likud has 32 seats out of 120, and he managed to gather up a number of other marginal parties (several hard-right religious parties among them) to form a coalition of 64. Israel has had 5 elections in the last 4 years, largely *because* these coalitions are so shaky, and cannot meet the demands of the various extremists. The day after the Hamas attack, Ha'aretz had an op-ed that read: "Netanyahu must step down now. Not after the conflict is over. Not after he has struck a plea deal on corruption charges. But right now." (perhaps not verbatim, but every bit as concise and blunt as this). There is a large segment of Israeli society that does not view the current administration as representative. But, as unrepresentative of the electorate as it is, the Israeli Knesset is pretty much the only actual democracy in the region. At the same time, however, it is a vital lesson in how proportional representation can end up backing a country into a policy corner. Israel has never NOT had a coalition government, and these days, more and more, Netanyahu has relied on extremist religious and openly anti-Arab parties to form coalitions and remain in power. This has resulted in face-palming cabinet choices like Itamar Ben-Gvir as National Security Minister.

[@iditbes6962]

This is my biggest problem with Ezra's podcast. His humanistic approach to the issue, doesn't allow a honest discussion involving culture, religion and globel context. When ever you have a pro palastinian guest, it always go back to "social justice" language of oppresor-oppresed-aparthide as if it a system exsiting in isolation.

[@markhammer643]

@@iditbes6962 In fairness, I think Ezra simply wanted to let the guest present his perspective, without attempting to shape or seriously challenge it, so we could understand their perspective, without necessarily accepting it or sympathizing. Admittedly, one IS prompted to want to shout "But what about...?" at the screen. The weakness I pointed out (i.e., what about Iran?) lies in the thinking and argumentation of his guest, and less so in the podcast.

[@mattsteinle2182]

Mark: Israel attacked first in the 1967 war, not the other way around. This is not in dispute

[@eitanaltman158]

“The Israelis need to be more diplomatic but also we have minimum demands that are completely unreasonable about and unwilling to compromise on” “Israel’s unwillingness to advance peace because Hamas kept doing terrorism is validation of the claim that Israel doesn’t want peace” So blissfully unaware of the core logical conflicts in his statements. Palestinian supporters also like to conveniently leave out the part about being willing to live at peace with your neighbors when discussing the right of return as international law (the text of UNR-194 he references says: “refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date”)

[@joshpatt8341]

Two more points to add: UNR-194 is not "international law", it is just a UN resolution (which the Arabs ignored at the time). UN resolutions are not international law - the UN is not a legislature. It mentions "refugees", not their descendants, even if they did have peaceful intentions, which they clearly do not have.

[@epador5348]

He is aware, Just dishonest and manipulative

[@terrencebushell9588]

I am Pro Palestinian but there is no way they are ever getting the right of return. It's simply never going to happen... Israel would never ever allow it ever.. they need to give it up...

[@Neo-Reloaded]

It's not only about returning. Israel don't want Palestinians to create a government for themselves. They want the division between Hamas and organizations such as PLO because otherwise they would get international recognition. For instance, the prime Minister allowed funds from Qatar to reach Gaza to keep Palestinians separate. You'll never hear Israelis saying we want a two state solution. They want to keep terrorist there even if that is dangerous for their own lives.

[@Eneroi]

Israel can accept the nakhba happened, and be compensated for their properties.

[@danielch6662]

It is happening RIGHT NOW !

[@Agtsmirnoff]

@@Eneroithat might be reasonable, but that’s not what any Palestinian leadership has ever proposed

[@leonidlando6528]

​@@Eneroino problem at all. Arab countries can simply transfer to the Palestinians the compensation arab countries will need to pay for some 500000-700000 sefardic jews who were expelled to israel at the same period. Easy....

[@nwrob1]

This show has been hitting it out of the park on this issue. Ezra has a black belt in non-confrontational pushback. Excellent guests and brilliant interviews.

[@mycrazyisland]

This is not non-confrontational. This is more of the far-left rabbithole that exists to tear down Western Democracies. Hamas is a far-right group. Full stop. They kill their own LGBT citizens. Hamas was TRAINED by Russia to do this attack. Hamas is funded by Iran to do this attack. Hamas is NO friend of the USA. This is equivalent of sitting down with Hitler to understand his point of view. Why don't we bother understanding North Korea's point of view? Ezra Klein is acting like an Uncle Tom. There were plenty of Jews who did this with Hitler, as well. THEY WERE ON THE WRONG SIDE. With this said, it is horrifying that Hamas is using its civilians as Human Shields. Ezra Klein, in playing Uncle Tom, is trying to use Western values to explain away a vicious terrorist group.

[@EllieK]

Meh. Being obsequious gets you nowhere.

[@dreinertson]

4:46. Already has accused Israel of dishonesty. Called peace accommodation. Called israel “Occupation” twice. Called “ propaganda “critique.” Called terrorism “confrontation.” Calls this presentation “understanding.”

[@m9shamalan]

This whole 'right of return' thing is just incredibly depressingly cynical. 'Yes we want two states except your state is also ours too'. Never gonna happen, ever.

[@pcolt4]

Sorry but theft and dispossession and murder are not acceptable. Full stop. Right of return is not negotiable under any decent standard.

[@TheMswizzy]

@@pcolt4where do you live?

[@pcolt4]

@@TheMswizzy Why are you asking me such a question?

[@m9shamalan]

@@pcolt4 because he is going to tell you who would have the 'right of return' to your city/house if you applied these standards to yourself. because there is nowhere on earth, with the possible exception of Antarctica, that wasnt fought over by humans at some point.

[@m9shamalan]

@@pcolt4 presumably then youll be advocating for the right of jews to return to poland, germany, russia, france, italy, belguim, holland, iraq, iran, syria, jordan, morocco and so on and claim the house that their ancestors owned before they were forced out during the 20th century? because as you said, that is unacceptable. right?

[@helenromanelli2544]

how can Hamas be seen to be supportive of the Palestinian people when it builds tunnels for it's soldiers but no safe shelters for the ordinary citizenry / Also, what about the 'leadership' of Hamas living on billions and living in luxury in Qatar?

[@llewxammilyt8768]

Until the Palestinian collective consciousness values peace over perfect justice there will be no peace.

[@pcolt4]

What about the Zionist "consciousness"? Clearly the Zionist regime hasn't valued peace in the slightest, because they cynically manipulated the misnomered "peace process" to perpetuate its occupation of the Palestinian territories.

[@rational-public-discourse]

That sounds like something an ultra-zionist living in an illegal settlement in the west bank, or an apartment in Manhattan, would say. I think that the Palestinians want to be left alone in their own land and have the ability to thrive as a society without Israel or the US setting the terms. Israel has been controlled by a racist ultra-zionist movement since its birth, and they have treated the Palestinian people as sub-human who don't have a right to live there and whose towns and villages should not even be on a map. The first thing that Israelis' did was to push out 870,000 Palestinians out of their homes, change the names of the towns to Hebrew names, and then establish new geography books showing Israel. This is a genocidal process that we are talking about, and the U.S. and western states should join the rest of the world in not supporting Israel in this genocidal process ... and start supporting the Palestinian people.

[@rosamundeandorfeo]

It was confusing, but I think Baconi explained that there is the ideological stance and then there is the political position. Ideologically (and my guess is, in deference to the Palestinian public), no Palestinian leader can say Israel is a legitimate power, because that's a tacit admission to Palestinians having no right to full sovereignity in the West bank and Gaza. But politically, they will take the 22 percent with full sovereignty, and half of Jerusalem. No Israeli leader has agreed to that much, not with full sovereignity, now with the Israel not controlling air and sea rights and thus precluding military autonomy. I think Americans constantly don't understand this rhetorical, face-saving maneuver, and it IS confusing.

[@paulamarsh1]

It us quite astounding that the speaker, while pro-Palestinian, neglects to give a full geo-historical abd political perspective... ignoring the Biblical and traditional Jewish claim to the area, historically the whole region is a vast affiliation of various tribes...it's an Arab/Middle Eastern mentality that westerners don't get: a "blood-land" thing ...the various Arab countries see the Palestinians as "of the blood" but without land...they are in that way like the black sheep. Since modern times, however, the Palestinian Arabs have not endeared themselves to their Arab (and largely Muslim) brothers : look at Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt to understand why they all talk bug no one wants the Palestinians. Israel developed since its inception, while Palestinian society remains backward, victim-looking. Regarding the Israelis, the settlements, are a pivotal point of contention and must go. If anything preempted the vile terrorist attack of October 7th, it was the increasingly right wing-leaning government. Notice that Ben Gvir was not elected to Netanyahu's war cabinet. What is so sad is that the region as a whole was starting towards reconciliation and a peaceful solution with Saudi Arabia and the UAE.

[@johnwright6102]

Could Baconi also recommend books on the Jewish Holocaust/genocide/persecution over millennia , the Christian Armenians who even today dream of reclaiming their homes and properties from muslim Turkey and the history and archaeology of Judaism since 1800 BCE. Arab Palestinians do not have sole right over this land (it was part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire prior to 1922). Historically these arabs have never been as persecuted and victimized as the Jews in the biblical land called Israel.

[@MAchannel2024]

Man, you must be watching right wing Christian Zionist propaganda vs real history.

[@johnwright6102]

If the Palestinian have a right to return, then give a right to return to the Armenians pushed out of Turkey and a right to return to the Jews and Christians pushed out of genocided after WW1, WW2 and in previous centuries in all muslim ME countries. There can be no double standard.

[@jessereichbach588]

Dont forget the Greeks in North Cyprus. Ukrainians in Crimea. The Dali Llama in Tibet. Heck 2 UN security council members, and a NATO member all with illegally occupied land, and unlike Israel, none for their own self defense. The UN is such a hypocritical joke. Didn't Azerbaijan steal more of Armenia earlier in the year? Turkey and Armenia are completely trying to squeeze Armenia, the oldest Christian nation on the planet basically, off the map. So they can create one continuous pan-Turkic coalition. Same dream the Arabs have. Same reason they want Israel so bad. They dont even hide it, but these vapid neo marxists gaslight and intentionally ignore it. Zuheir Mohsen (1936 - 25 July 1979) was a Palestinian leader of the Syria-controlled as-Sa'iqa faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) between 1971 and 1979. Quotes The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. “Wij zijn alleen Palestijn om politieke reden,” James Dorsey, Trouw, 31 March 1977.

[@ziruini5071]

Of course, why would anybody in favor of Palestinians’ right to return ever oppose those other things?

[@barakb1992]

​@@ziruini5071 because the Palestinian cause is an explicitly Arab nationalistic and Arab supremacist cause which demands total Arab hegemony from Morocco to iraq?

[@jessereichbach588]

@@ziruini5071 You are joking right? More than 50% of those who support Palestinian right to return, blatantly would oppose Armenian return and Turkish/Azerbaijani pull back. The Islamist world would have a legitimate hissy fit. How deluded are you? Are you some ideologically marxist simpleton who thinks the rest of the world feels just like people living in Cushy suburban America? That they want the same things? How absolutely ignorant. Stay naive child.

[@calj2090]

Jews and other holocaust victims do have a right of return in Europe

[@Cranky_Crone]

Re. recognition of the Nakba & right of return: (As a white Australian, we share some historical similarities; so I speak from the perspective of an oppressor.) We stole our continent over 200 years ago; declared it “empty” & labeled the indigenous populations “fauna.” We *crushed* the opposition, at a time in history when that was kinda “just the done thing.” Big dry continent, so they were widely dispersed, disparate peoples. We had greater tech, firepower & numbers; between our massacres; lies turning tribes against each other, enslaving them, raping women, then stealing children & whipping them if they dared speak their own languages; very few groups managed to mount a lasting defence. We dominated them & wrote the history books to suit our narrative. Guess what? 200+ years on & the black fellas STILL haven’t gotten over it! If you think for a minute the Palestinians can just get over history and quietly go off into the Sinai, think harder. No occupied group in the world has done it yet, why would Palestinians be any different? You’re right about the impossibility of restoring historical justice; the Palestinians (like our Aboriginal peoples) can’t and won’t ever be fully compensated for decades of murder & oppression. If a “fair” compensation amount could somehow be calculated, nobody could afford the bill; but this kind of cost can’t be counted. But that doesn’t justify denying the truth & certainly doesn’t justify maintaining the status quo. If you take seriously the demand for justice, look around at the rest of the post-colonial world. We haven’t fixed things by a long shot & we’re still learning as we go. We still grapple with huge socioeconomic disparities, high crime, poverty/drugs/alcohol & unbelievable comparative rates of incarceration & deaths in custody, massive gaps in health and life expectancy etc. etc… But we’ve been able to acknowledge & apologise for our national crimes; it didn’t bankrupt us. We legally recognised traditional land rights and it didn’t destroy us. We’re still learning how to begin addressing ongoing injustices, but conversations can be had & for the most part, nobody’s getting blown up here. You might be surprised by how willing oppressed peoples are to make peace if you give them half a chance. Even without justice, people WANT to get on with their lives; but most humans need our truth & our pain acknowledged before we can move on. I think that’s behind how Hamas’ charter is worded: they aren’t insisting on a specific outcome & they leave room for pragmatic negotiation; they just NEED those fundamental injustices to be at least named & acknowledged as a starting point. And shoot, apologies cost nothing!! 🤯

[@Cranky_Crone]

That said, there’s a whole bunch of freshly built housing in the West Bank, that could be a start, given they’re within the original borders…

[@MarianneExJohnson]

The widely-held consensus in the West, that the Palestinians should just "get over it," denies the reality that the Nakba has never ended, and abuse of Palestinians and theft of their land has never halted. The resistance isn't about turning back the clock to 1917. But the "get over it" crowd doesn't care, because they aren't actually interested in justice at all. They are advocating for a position they would never accept themselves if the roles were reversed. They have decided, long ago, that Israel are the good guys, and they get upset by any evidence to the contrary. The real reason for the ascendancy of Hamas is the fact that Israel has *never* negotiated in good faith.

[@yahavrave]

Man, you got this all wrong. The Jews ARE the natives of Israel. The Roman colonizers exiled many of them (but not all), then other colonizers came. The Palestinians are the children of the colonizers. Whatever happened in Australia, the situation is not at all similar.

[@MarianneExJohnson]

@@yahavrave Genealogy is a nice hobby, sure. What's at issue is property rights. The Palestinians are the rightful owners of the land.

[@yahavrave]

@@MarianneExJohnson according to whom? The UN? The UN made a partition plan in 1947 (which they did not accept). Technically speaking many Palestinians did not own the rights to the homes they lived in since before the British mandate. That's not to justify anyone losing their home, but just to explain the futility of this kind of talk. What about the property rigts of my family in Germany, Poland and Lithuania? What about the land of all the hundreds of thousands of Jews that were expelled from Muslim and Arab nations? Will we give them all their land/homes back? That can't possibly work. We can never achieve 'justice' in this case, because the rights of many people are in conflict. It is comparable to you being chased by gangs out of your house, and several generations later your great-grandchildren come back and claim it. Did they have a right to it even if squatters took it over in the meantime? Have you asked yourself why any other refugee population in the world can only have the status of refugee for one generation and Palestinians remain 'refugees' even after being granted citizenship in another land? This is all part of a political game played between the 'West' and the Arab nations. Unfortunately the Palestinians are the ones to suffer most. But it will never be resolved by maintaining unrealistic expectations. They can't go back to homes that are not there, and millions of Jews are not going to leave. They have no where to go.

[@scarletsletter4466]

#1 problem is that the people do not want a peaceful 2-state settlement. Any Palestinian “leadership” who tries to cooperate with Israel at all, much less actually reach agreement on partition, instantly loses the people’s support. Politics are downstream of culture, so until there’s a massive ideological shift among Palestinians, there will never be peace, & there can never be a settlement without peace. As Erza rightly observed, every time there were attacks during negotiations, the Israeli left dried up & the will to compromise was lost. It’s hard to feel empathy for people committing acts like Oct7. If you read the independent third party audits of the UN school curriculum, you’ll find that in the last few years since Hamas has been in power, the curriculum has been changed at every level to introduce jihadism. That word is not hyperbole, either- it’s literally the word used in the reports. So the problem just continues to get worse. There’s no transactional solution to ideological differences. There’s no amount of land you can give a jihadist neighbor to ensure his peace.

[@xiomaraortiz5158]

Agreed

[@pcolt4]

This narrative is completely false. It is Israel that does not want a peaceful 2-state settlement. The irrefutable proof of this is how Israel NEVER ceased building settlements in occupied Palestinian territory. So GTF out of here with that false narrative.

[@Post_3D_Space-time_Data_Stream]

Ha-MESS will never agree to any peace treaty. Not now, not in 100 years, not in a thousand years. That's why we are seeing what we are seeing.

[@dankoppel6271]

Unfortunately you make a lot of sense.

[@Kooky_Duzzfutz]

"so until there’s a massive ideological shift among Palestinians, there will never be peace" In other words, there never will be peace - at least not in the foreseeable future.

[@deboraharonson8975]

The first two minutes was the incisive lie. The Muslim Brotherhood is not a ‘health and supportive’ organization. The MB, in fact, IS the mover of the little pins around to make sure those in the world who are not Muslim convert or die. How can you NOT know this. Perhaps deeper, wider, broader study will help. Yes, Ezra, I am shocked.

[@MrBezigebij]

I wouldn’t presume he doesn’t know this or even agree with what you are saying. He is opening a dialogue to better understand Hamas’ standpoint. A difficult and brave thing to do. It took me three tries to listen to this and be open enough to absorb what was being said. I still disagree with much of the the interviewee is saying and think a lot is revisionist history and lies. And the amount I trust Hamas is basically not at all. But it is still useful to understand this persecution. Hard, frustrating, exasperating, but useful.

[@m.a.b.4104]

I don't believe it's a lie, large organisations can be more than one thing at a time. Of course the Muslim Brotherhood credentials were exposed when they gained power in Egypt after the Arab Spring led to the ousting of the military dictatorship and the MB leadership proved to be corrupt and inept. In the 80's when the PLO dominated the politics of Gaza, the Muslim Brotherhood through Hamas had a largely social presence through charities. It was the breakdown of partnerships between the PLO and the MB(the PLO leader Arafat had fought alongside the MB as early as '48) that contributed to Hamas becoming more political, which led to being more militant and conducting terrorism. This is in no way an excuse for the horrific violence over many years that the MB has been a part of, but to deny the social programs and charities they have also done would be wrong and a failure to accurately understand their history and support in the region. To try to work out constructive solutions without truly understanding the problem is pure folly. Everything said by both sides of a conversation doesn't have to be agreed with to gain understanding and learn from it.

[@pcolt4]

Deborah, enough with the disgusting lies. Narratives like that are just so cynically false. Quit making up false narratives to justify the genocide.

[@blondiegreeneyes4802]

I have the same problem when I'm told that CAIR fights for the civil rights of Muslims. These Islamic organizations should be outlawed.

[@miatomi]

You seem to be unfamiliar with how the muslim brotherhood gained traction in gaza to begin with. Aid is the carrot, Islamism is the stick. And the occupation is the reason why the donkey does not revolt

[@Ryanandboys]

I really want to listen to this in good faith as I'm pretty agnostic as to which side I support But the more it goes on the more I really lost respect for the Palestinian here. Honestly they're just being childish and super unrealistic and they know it's going to end in war and huge amounts of death of their own people and there's still maximalist even when they're extremely weak. This makes no sense to me at all besides if they all want to be martyrs.

[@WhizzingFish12]

There's nothing to be agnostic about. I am an historian and the Arab version of history is complete propaganda. Jews are no more colonizers than the Arabs are - there have been many thousands of Jews in the region for eons, and those who moved there (the Zionist movement) overwhelmingly purchased their lands from the Ottoman Empire of local landowners. They did NOT steal it. The UN plan gave the Jews a tiny meandering strip of land connecting majority-Jewish towns while the Arab Muslims got the vast majority (Syria, Iraq, Jordan). But the Arabs couldn't accept that another faith could ever control ANY of the region that they felt was theirs. When you launch repeated wars with a goal of exterminating your opponent, you don't get to cry foul when you lose and they take some of YOUR land. It also neglects to mention (interestingly) that more Jews were forced out of Muslim nations than Arabs were forced out of present-day Israel. BTW, Arabs in Israel do not want anything to do with being part of another nation - despite the rhetoric of "apartheid," Muslim Arabs in Israel have full rights, can vote and form political parties, serve in the police and military, and hold seats in both the Knesset and on the Supreme Court. These are easy to look up. In short, there is no moral equivalency here. If Hamas et al were to recognize Israel's right to exist and lay down their arms, there would be peace. if Israel laid down their arms, you'd see 10/7 on a vast scale.

[@ehsanakbari3185]

You are not a good-faithful listener if you're reacting like this.

[@tranngocminh269]

The more I try to learn from both sides, the more I see that Palestine is mainly playing the victim card. As for my understanding, it is an ongoing war between 2 national movements that lasts bloody long with many international political factors. Israel is the winning side so far and keeps growing in terms of economy, military, and also their society, while on the other side, Palestine is losing for their weak organized society and maybe the influence of their religious faith that makes them hard to sit down and accept some compromise condition to get peace and then a chance for develop their community. Also, Israel showed more offers to deal with the matter than Palestine who said NO multiple times, because they just wanted to claim the land back without any Jews or Jews being secondary citizens. The more they suffer, the society has no chance to grow but lean toward extremism, it is like a vicious circle. Even with this attack by Hamas, what is the plan after killing and kidnapping so many Israelis anyway, did they hope that Israel will give up their winning condition? How peace could be set, it seems impossible in any near future.

[@xraxisxtremestream1511]

@@tranngocminh269 The Palestinian peoples actions would support this. They tried to help other arab nations "erase Israel from existence" which failed due to the hubris of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria with Palestinians in their occupied territories. Israel heard what they were doing and launched a preemptive attack leading to Israeli victory in the 6 day war. After the 6 day war A large portion of the Palestinian militants were expelled into Jordan which lead to a Palestinian lead civil war known as Black September. They keep picking fights, and keep losing, then they blame everyone else for their struggles. a peace sign in one hand and a dagger in the other.

[@blondiegreeneyes4802]

I'm not Jewish, but I've always been protective of the Jews and their culture. In high school I chose to do my research paper on the Holocaust. I got to shake the hand of a Holocaust survivor many years ago. That remains a special moment to me.

[@kiwilaurel]

Nice to see polite conversation on topics so often obscured by violence.

[@michaelcorner3861]

With respect to the guest, Hamas is losing badly militarily. The house to house fighting with heavy IDF casualties they anticipated has not occurred. The guest says Hamas has lost "only" 4000 fighters thus far (a low estimate), yet that is 8% of his estimated strength of 50,000 men, which is much too high.

[@SpiderMan-od3kr]

I don't understand how they can be both victorious and hapless victims.

[@idoturgeman1589]

​@@SpiderMan-od3kr as Israeli, the only thing that israel will consider as a victory is zero threat from the Palestinians on Israeli civilians. There is need to be long term solution to both sides, it will take dacedas to change the mind of people who grow on hate for the jew. I don't think they need the land, what they really need is hope for better future and a path of development for the better quality of life. Already they get billions of money each year, all they need to do is to put all the money for a good use instead of retaliation.

[@ragged_claws_scuttling]

Baruch Hashem, v’kol haKavod l’tzahal!

[@braincase3903]

4000 is just an estimate. You have conveniently decided to ignore the economic cost of conducting war for each side, and the fact that Israel is now fighting wars on at least 3 other fronts (Hezbollah in Lebanon, Palestinian Resistance in the West Bank, and the Houthi in Yemen). Three out of four of these 4 total fronts are extremely asymmetrical, meaning that their opponents can inflict large damage costs for very little cost to themselves, while Israel cannot so easily do the same back to them. Morale and vehicles are also a very important consideration, as Hamas are resolutely and principally trained Islamic militants, and quite frankly are unafraid to die, while the IDF are mostly civilian reservists that may not have trained in years or months, and are much more scared to die, and cripple the economy by being in service. The amount of armored vehicles that have been destroyed by Hamas has caused Israel to cancel vehicle sales to other countries. The idea that the IDF is winning is a Western narrative. The only thing they are winning at is slaughtering innocent civilians, not killing Hamas militants or achieving their military goals. Their named goals are to destroy Hamas and to return the hostages, which are basically impossible in the current reality. All Hamas has to do is not lose, which is what the IDF set them up for when this "war" started

[@idoturgeman1589]

@@braincase3903 sorry but you don't know what you are talking about. 1. We (as Israeli and as idf reservist) don't afraid of war, none of the soldiers is scare to die, it is true that we value life a lot more the hamas jihads but we know as a culture that we need to do anything to protect our country and our families from those bloody monsters who target civilians and kidnapped 240 of our people from 9 month baby up to 85 years old grandma. Our soldiers are also much more skilled you can look by the numbers less then 100 idf soldiers died in Gaza and thousands of hamas and Islamic jihad "fighters" died. 2. We have no interest in killing civilians, because the war is style guerilla warfare in one of the densest areas in the world there is a large amount of collateral damage and we are doing anything in our capabilities to limit this damage even known that hamas "fighters" don't even put uniforms to blend with the civilians. 3. The Israeli economy will benefit from the war in the long run, less threat from Gaza is also less threat to the economy's stability, also it improves the defence industry by selling products like iron dome, iron fist, and the arrow. 4. Idf can control all the areas in the same time but it will not be smarter to take them one by one.

[@gabitamiravideos]

The guests’ version about what was addressed during the Oslo negotiations differs from what I heard at the time. AFAIK the idea of including compensation, both to descendants of the Palestinians displaced during the ‘48 war and to those Jewish population expelled from Arabic countries, was discussed during at the time. Arafat countered that he did not have a right to negotiate away the people’s rights, and that the right of return was an individual right. Israel would not concede the narrative of expulsion, because they perceived that instead of opening the door to a final settlement it would be used as a tool for continuing demands of return, which are logically seen as an existential threat. Israelis don’t deem it as a symbolic concession, and I doubt this will change anytime soon. That has made many Israelis say that a two state solution cannot mean that Palestinians get booth one state without Jews and another state with Jews in a dwindling proportion.

[@scarletsletter4466]

“A 2 state solution cannot mean that Palestinians get both 1 state without the Jews & another state with the Jews in dwindling proportion.” Yes. This is the crux of the problem. As long as the ideological issue exists (Palestinians want to eradicate Israel) then a 2 state solution seems pointless. Also, Gaza being independently run was a bit of a 1st step to see if a 2-state solution would be viable. Meaning, could an independently run Palestinian area be peaceful. Of course people will complain about the security measures, but Oct7 certainly proved the mini-2 state solution failed & Palestinians seem to have less appetite for peace than ever

[@gabitamiravideos]

@@scarletsletter4466 I always saw disengagement without an agreement more of a retreat to cut the burden of guarding the settlers in Gaza. I wasn’t too surprised that Hamas took control there.

[@joanyoon4672]

A great war strategy starts with "understanding" the enemy. Thank you for your high quality podcast contents!

[@JohnMoran]

Not a peace strategy, huh?

[@ragged_claws_scuttling]

@@JohnMoranLet’s not put the cart before the horse.

[@litsci1877]

It's fairly simple, Joan. (1) They want Israel gone. (2) Murder is fine to get there. No need to overcomplicate things. Use your empathy for people who aren't murderers who're still ready to go. Unless of course you're inviting them to your house. Because if you're going to make things soft for murderers, you shouldn't be putting other people at risk, that's not very empathetic of you. You should be taking on the danger yourself.

[@joanyoon4672]

@@litsci1877 in my perspective that is what took place. Evil attracts evil. What were they doing in West Bank? Why were IDF persecuting Muslins worshipping in their mosques?

[@rgghjs9270]

​@@litsci1877 Baffles me how people can spout stuff like this while IDF are still killing children daily - seven thousand so far

[@jeweleason2608]

Thank you for the discussion. It provided a better understanding. Keep the discussions going.

[@elliotcohen2286]

Would have been interesting to hear how the Iranian question fits into this?

[@lauracastor3713]

Ezra and Tareq, Much gratitude to you both for this very thoughtful, informative discussion and all the valuable context. You model the kind of respectful, curious exchange we so badly need more of.

[@TheRoSho]

Israel will acknowledge the horror of the Nakba when Palestinians acknowledge that the Jews have an indigenous and rightful claim to the land just like the Palestinians do.

[@millrace32]

seems to me baconi's already been exposed as something of a hamas patsy, which really ought not to be too surprising

[@georgekleinfelter7041]

Ezra Klein completely failed to mention the agreement that Ehud Barak, Bill Clinton, and Yasser Arafat agreed to in late 2000 that Arafat waffled on and then ultimately walked away from. In that instance, as well as with respect to offers by Ehud Olmert’s government later in that decade, it was the Palestinians who weren’t negotiating in good faith. That was the minimum research that Ezra needed to do before interviewing a guest who would make the claims that a guest like this would and did. He didn’t do his homework.

[@frankincensemerchant1284]

Ehud Olmert's offers suffered from the same problems as Barak it wasn't an offer of proper statehood but rather autonomy when one looks at the details. Also Olmert's final offer was hollow given he resigned a few days after anyways. Israel was never interested in a proper genuine two state solution what some on the Israeli left like Rabin were offering in practice was autonomy not actual real statehood.

[@georgekleinfelter7041]

@@frankincensemerchant1284 Ehud Barak’s offer, negotiated through Bill Clinton, was good enough for Yasser Arafat to agree to it . . . until he lost his nerve a few months later. At the very least, these offers clearly should have been raised by Ezra Klein.

[@frankincensemerchant1284]

@@georgekleinfelter7041 Neither Barak nor Arafat fully accepted Clinton's offer as both had their respective issues with it. Suffice it to say the Israeli conception of a Palestinian state(among those in power that claimed to want it) was in essence Palestinian autonomy not actual full independence.

[@georgekleinfelter7041]

@@frankincensemerchant1284 How long would it take a fully independent Palestinian state to be flooded with Iranian missiles? If you're rational, our only disagreement is that I'm saying seven minutes and you're saying 12. Israel, at its narrowest point, is nine miles wide.

[@frankincensemerchant1284]

@@georgekleinfelter7041 So be upfront and just say one doesn't want an actual independent Palestinian state, at least one will be honest. But this whole notion of playing this double game needs to end, one should be clear about what it is they want not give a façade of wanting one thing in public but a different thing in private.

[@suhailski]

The right of return is a paradox which does not have a solution except in the context of something like a federation which enshrines ‘freedom of movement’. It may happen sometime in the future but I am glad we are talking about the two state solution again. IMHO , Israel cannot survive without it.

[@aaronrodgers77]

Bottom line is he is a terror apologist. The amount of falsehoods was stunning. However, he did make several valid points. But it’s hard to overlook the majority of his arguments which were outrageous.

[@tarafreedom2584]

The word “ colonialisation” of Palestinians by Israel is a wrong term in this context!

[@xraxisxtremestream1511]

Agreed. Arab Jews lived in the area too. Just because European Jews came there as refugees but that doesn't make them colonizers of anyone but the Arab Jews that welcomed them there. The other arab nations in the area expelled their jews to Israel, and then tried to launch a full scale war to eradicate them. The Palestinians are unfortunately entitled sore losers.

[@rachelebgi]

If the only way Palestine would negotiate peace with Israel is for the right of return, I can understand why Israel doesn’t take them seriously. Really great questions Ezra.

[@misterMagoo4]

You lack imagination

[@rachelebgi]

@@misterMagoo4 no, I’m just practical in my idealism.

[@pw323]

Explain the logic and justice behind granting the “right to return” to a second-generation Jew, born & raised in the USA (or any part of the world) & never set foot on Israel, but a Palestinian born & raised in Palestine but taken out of their home (perhaps to make room for an American Jew) does not have a right to return to their homeland. (This is a real life example). I agree it is a practical solution if your stated goal is the expulsion or extermination of all Palestinians, as it was & is for the original & current Zionists in power in Israel. “We must expel the Arabs and take their place. I support forced transfer, and see nothing unethical in it.” - Ben-Gurion, first PM of Israel, founding Zionist

[@WhizzingFish12]

The right of return would only be an interim step towards an overall end goal of reconquest. And the Israelis know it.

[@WhizzingFish12]

​@pw323 So tired of historical illiteracy. The Jews are no more colonizers than the Arabs are - there have been many thousands of Jews in the area for eons. Zionists didn't steal the land in the early 20th C - overwhelmingly they bought it from the Ottomans and later landowners. The state that they were given was a tiny meandering strip connecting Jewish majority towns, while Arabs received the vast majority of land (Syria, Iraq, Jordan, etc). The Jews accepted but the Arabs refused to allow another faith to have any control over territory they think is religiously theirs. When you attack someone repeatedly with the goal of its extermination, you don't get to cry foul when you lose and they take some of YOUR land.

[@kaboom146]

What is Tahir's academic affiliarion? His personal and political backgroundm

[@Artandmeditation-no7uj]

I don't understand why would anyone want to live in an area where no one wants you there . There is no explanation other than ideological .

[@davissae]

Hamas simply undermined any pre-existing underdog support they had.

[@danielch6662]

Oh, come on. That's totally disingenuous. You're telling me that in September 2023, you supported Hamas? Right. Sure.

[@davissae]

@@danielch6662no I didn’t. I meant the perception by many

[@Kman666]

In the west maybe, but I dont think you are the target audience.

[@shainazion4073]

So glad you brought up the Palestinian refugee issue. Any person not a Jew living in the British Mandate of Palestine from 1946 can be considered as a Palestinian refugee. Most of the "refugees" are actually IDPs (Internally Displaced Persons), not refugees. And, Palestinian "refugees" are the only population ever that passes their refugee status to their children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, and adopted children. They have their own refugee agency, UNRWA, while all other refugees in the world share a different refugee agency.

[@yehuditcollins6783]

When Hamas says they want to destroy Israel you'd better believe they mean it.

[@johnwilliam2474]

📚BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS: Tareq Baconi recommends 3 books. If you hav read any, what are your thoughts, recommendations? Also, what are your thoughts on the points Tareq Baconi has made?

[@sethcaplan859]

I have always assumed the "right of return" was a euphemism for conquest. After all why after decades of fighting would Palestinians want to surrender the idea of true sovereignty and cultural independence to get a few plots of land back? even if 14 million Palestinians were to suddenly arrive and integrate into Israeli society the only thing they would change about Israel is its Jewish character. Israel would still be western society, the Palestinians would still be behind in terms of education and economic power, they would be a majority in a nation not their own. As a culture looking to survive, wouldn't they rather build their own nation with their own cultural values at its core?

[@Agtsmirnoff]

Massive assumption to think they'd "assimilate"

[@blondiegreeneyes4802]

That is a terrible idea.

[@moma8956]

What's a "Jewish Character"? What's a "Muslim Character"? What's a "Christian Character"? Is Israel an Ethnostate or is it secular? Is Judiasm a cultural identity or an ethnicity? Is Amy Schumer an indigenous Palestinian woman and the Old Lady that was ethnically cleansed from Yaffa in 1947 isn't? Is Israel an Apartheid state or a democracy? Are the 2 million Arab Israelis in Israel considered Israeli? What about the other Arabs in the WB? WTH is a settlement? Are settlers colonizers? Are settlers terrorist? Are Mizrahi Jews the same as Ashkenazi Jews? If Israel is secular? Why does Israel have religion based parties and openly Jewish Surpremacist Ministers (but Ssshhh, it's ok) ? How many Israeli PMs were Warcriminals/Terrsts? 🤔🤔🤔 Is it anti-semetic to criticize Israel? I guess we will never know.

[@sethcaplan859]

What is a Jewish character? go Israel it will be pretty apparent once you get there What is a Muslim character? go to Turkey, Saudi Arabia, or most other Muslim majority nations it will be pretty apparent What is a Christian character? go to any European nation or to Texas for that matter, it will be pretty apparent Is Israel an Ethnostate or is it secular? These are not mutually exclusive Turkey is an example of an Ethnostate that is also secular. However Israel is not an Ethnostate Is Amy Schumer an indigenous Palestinian woman and the Old Lady that was ethnically cleansed from Yaffa in 1947 isn't? Are you high? Is Israel an Apartheid state or a democracy? Interpretations vary but generally no. Israel has created apartheid like conditions in the West bank but is not an Apartheid state like South Africa before the 90s. However with a lose enough definition all pluralist nations are Apartheid. Are the 2 million Arab Israelis in Israel considered Israeli? The answer is in the question. What about the other Arabs in the WB? Do want a history, an ethnography, or prediction of the future? WTH is a settlement? Depends on the context, In reference to Israel and Palestine it is an Illegal Israeli town in the West Bank or east Jerusalem. Are settlers colonizers? Depends on the context but generally yes. Are settlers terrorist? Some are, other are not. Are Mizrahi Jews the same as Ashkenazi Jews? These are different ethnic groups with different histories and cultures. If Israel is secular? It is however like in other countries that is opposed by certain political factions Why does Israel have religion based parties and openly Jewish Surpremacist Ministers (but Ssshhh, it's ok) ? Like other democratic nations Israel has many political parties. Currently a rightwing populist coalition has power. How many Israeli PMs were Warcriminals/Terrsts? That depends on who you ask, what constitutes as these titles are subjective. Many world leaders have been accused of being war criminals and terrorist's some with more evidence then others. Is it anti-semetic to criticize Israel? Like anywhere else in the world it depends how you do it. If you are intending to criticize a country like China but use derogatory language referring to their leaders eyes you are perpetuating anti-Asian hate, not simply being critical of china. If you attempt to criticize Israel but discredit Jews has having no history or right to self determination in the region, as has become commonplace on the left, or Jews as being conniving and conspiratorial, as has become commonplace on the right, then yes. If you single out political factions such as the Likud party then no.

[@somethingorother123]

Portraying South Africa as a post colonial success story is ridiculous. Many white afrikaaners were brutally murdered and the overall murder rate in the country is the 3rd highest in the world.

[@DanS8204]

Tareq Baconi’s full-throated defense of Hamas, and his rationalization of a wide range of horrific terrorist attacks, culminating in the vicious massacres on October 7, is disheartening and disturbing to hear - and his perspectives are those of a moderate Hamas supporter.

[@talswatching]

It's extremely hard to hear someone talk with inaccurate information and not once corrected or even asked about it. I'm sure we all know how in Arabic the things that are said are very different from the things that are spoken to the English speaking world. I feel like this is what's happening here.

[@dexterdextrow7248]

Well yea, pretty much. It's extremely toned down for the sake of western mass appeal. I find it's really hard to claim the moral high ground of a internationally recognised terrorist organisation who have been firing missiles into their neighbours country on a daily basis. It just a utterly bizarre situation.

[@pcolt4]

@@dexterdextrow7248 What about the internationally recognized terrorist state that has been violently occupying foreign territory for nearly a half-century now while stealing ever-greater patches of said territory for its own violent settlers while preventing the free movement and tightening the territorial encirclement of said territory's rightful inhabitants? The hypocrisy is disgusting.

[@shainazion4073]

​@@pcolt4?????

[@shainazion4073]

​@@pcolt4 Foreign Territory? The former Ottoman lands voted on unanimously in 1922 by the League of Nations Mandate of Palestine Charter which stated; *_"Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country"_* *Buy a book! Google is free!*

[@pcolt4]

@@shainazion4073 I assure you I"ve done more reading than you have on this topic, Pilgrim Shaina. The bloody greedy British and French imperialists certainly had no right to murder and dispossess the existing inhabitants of Palestine, any more than the murderous terrorizing Zionists did. Also, where in the charter does it say that the white European Zionists have the right to force 800,000 Palestinians to flee their homes, the right to steal their land, the right to hold them in mass concentration camps of 2.3 million people, the right to bomb them under the false pretext of fighting the very terrorism that they are guilty of causing? No, Madam Pilgrim: YOU read a book,, YOU use the internet, YOU quit spreading your lies since the honest people of the world no longer are willing to swallow them.

[@annamobeene]

It seems that this man were on vacation on 7 october. I don't understand how can someone can tell that hamas is open to negotiations and that they don't want Israel destruction, above all after 7 oct.

[@markacohen1]

Just about the best hour I've heard on this issue since Oct 7th. A well-informed, intelligent, measured, attentive person from different sides, the Liberal American jew and the Palestinian (I think Baconi was born in Jordan and si now a UK academic in the UK ) . Like it or not there are two sides here and Hamas is fighting for one of them. Tacomi is making the best case for Hamas's actions that can be made. I tend to side with Klein, no surprise there, and he asks all the pertinent questions that needed to be asked and makes the objections that a politically savvy person would make to Baconi's powerful, thoughtful articulations of Hamas's reasoning. I'd add one more point to Klein's sympathetic objections: the analogy of South Africa and Palestine is imperfect. The ANC and its component elements never had any maximal position, it wanted the same rights and democratic power as the Whites, and never postulated the extermination or expulsion of the Whites, never represented the spear of surrounding nations which also, at one point, sought to destroy the oppressor, never sought to impose an ideological/religious ideology on that oppressor. It also had a policy of never targeting White civilians. White Boers or American Whites in Jim Crow had no experience of the oppressed groups trying to destroy or expel them; their fears of destruction were groundless. omalley.nelsonmandela.org/index.php/site/q/03lv02167/04lv02264/05lv02303/06lv02304/07lv02305/08lv02312.htm There is always the problem, too, of what sort of governance Hamas represents. What would it look like? The other Arab majority nations in the region offer no good alternatives or promise, on the contrary. Hamas decided not to build air raid shelters for the population only tunnels for their military. That does not inspire confidence. This doesn't make them evil or the Israelis good. But we can judge them by results not simply by their aspirations, and how well they strategize and plan. It does mean they cannot be trusted to GOVERN well. They know how to fight, for sure. What we are seeing today shows that they have not been effective representatives, they have chosen terrible policies to achieve their objectives. Israel can choose terrible governments and survive comfortably; the Palestinians don't have that luxury.

[@jmagaram]

Listen to the Sam Harris Making Sense recent podcast about jihadism. Hamas is not just “one side” of the conflict fighting for their people. They represent jihadism which is an existential threat to free societies everywhere. Watch Hotel Mumbai. Listen to the son of the Hamas founder speech he gave at the UN recently.

[@m.a.b.4104]

The point you make about comparisons with other oppressed groups having political victories is a good one. Over simplifying comparisons with other struggles against oppression can lead to ignoring/failing to understand important factors of the conflict.

[@valtracey6180]

I agree with a lot of your points, but I can’t help but think you’ve overlooked the elephant in the room. And that is the ongoing absorption of land by Israel - they are literally eating it up slowly and steadily, coming from a position less than 100 years ago of 10% Jewish occupation to 90% non-Jews, to today when the ratio is now 78% to 22%. Hamas has only been in existence for just under 40 years. But nothing in all that time seemed to have any impact on the ongoing illegal acquisition of land by Israel. In all wars, shocking atrocities have been carried out by the military. The vast majority of casualties are always civilians. Is that not terrorism too? Doesn’t that make any government that declares war on any nation or community a terrorist group too? War terrorises, period. If you’re going to build up a huge army and a multitude of deadly weapons, then your intention is clearly to go to war. It is clearly not for defense, because more than 50% of the population of Gaza are children - who needs to defend themselves against children? It is also not for ‘security’. There is no one in the world who feels secure right now, because of the actions of a ‘democratic’ State! If Israel represents a modern civilised democratic society, then we are all in trouble. Who are we then to say that Hamas could not do any better?

[@valtracey6180]

‘Israel can choose terrible governments and survive comfortably’ - that statement has been troubling me, because my understanding is that the present PM is facing charges of corruption and could in fact be facing a jail sentence, so this outbreak has been a blessing in disguise for him …. Is that why he declared that this was going to be a long war? Is he hoping to somehow become a hero for driving out Hamas (the ‘collateral’ damage, ie innocent women and children, hospitals, schools, homes etc can’t be helped!) just as long as he gets off the hook. Personally I can’t think of any worse type of governance, where even your own people are sacrificed - the hostages he made no attempt to save, the Israeli people who have to live with the brutality of his actions, afraid to speak up when they disagree. I wouldn’t call that comfortably surviving. Btw - I don’t think Hamas is any better, but I know less from that side because I imagine that Palestinian people are also afraid to speak out. The poor governance from Israel is much more visible.

[@m.a.b.4104]

​​@@valtracey6180if you're interested, you said at the end that you know little about Hamas's rule in Gaza, the video below is a Vice video of when the part owner Suroosh visited Gaza in 2011, 4 years after they took over governing the area. Gives a reasonable idea of what day to day governing was like at the time compared to how their spokespersons stated the situation was. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iIitd3Zvbc-DqLMsi=8SpCixtuipegttzL

[@iillii5]

51:00 if Israel supports (Hamas, Abbas) or undermines (Abbas, PLO) Palestinian leadership it is considered at fault.

[@Ryanandboys]

This is quite interesting but every time I hear a Palestinian talk they're so out of touch with the reality of the situation it's hard for me to even fathom hell a group of otherwise intelligent people could be so far from reality. As an American part of me can really appreciate a really small underdog trying to get sovereignty over their land from a huge regional superpower: colonizer but in this United States we had France as an ally and we were actually pretty powerful and already relatively wealthy and had lots of other advantages Palestine has none of these and there is zero chance they will get any of these extreme demands so this is just idiotic.

[@terrencebushell9588]

Yeah it was delusional all this talk of right of return is frustrating. If you haven't lived in a place for 75 years you have no claim to it... this is the same delusional argument that created Israel in the first place... Rights for Palestinian in Palestine absolutely but you can't turn back the clock and start resettling people who have lived a lifetimes elsewhere back in Palestine...

[@SvetlanaRakhim]

It’s the same as keeping talking about a peaceful meaning of jihad in the face of the real events.

[@danielch6662]

Ryan. It is the same all over the world. All the new countries that were formerly colonies of one western country or another. The colonizer was a superpower compared to what the locals could muster. But look at the world today. Why did North America, Hawaii, Australia, and New Zealand became European? Large numbers of North American natives died of disease, and Australia and New Zealand were very sparsely populated. So the Europeans moved more of their population there until the natives were outnumbered. This is impossible in Israel. There are not enough Jews in the entire world, and many of them are not Zionists and do not want to move to Israel. Even if we could somehow force them, there still isn't enough of them. I live in one of the many former British colonies encircling the globe. The population here was a bit higher, and the British never tried to move large numbers of their people here.

[@WhizzingFish12]

Jews are no more colonizers than the Arabs are. There have been many many thousands of Jews in the region for literally eons. They didn't steal land - they bought it from the Ottomans and later local landowners. Their state was to a TINY meandering strip connecting Jewish towns while the Arabs got the vast majority of the larger mandate area (Jordan, Iraq, Syria, etc). So let's be real - the Arab Muslims could not tolerate ANY other faith having a majority state in the region that they felt was theirs. Once Islam conquers an area, its not supposed to ever go backward; after all, their ultimate goal is a one-faith world. While the Nakba is a real thing, no one talks about the fact that more Jews have been forced out of Arab nations.

[@harrypmay]

@@danielch6662 Israel isn’t a colony though. This is the fundamental misunderstanding to the situation. Palestine believes they are Algeria and Israel are the French. They and many others believe the Jews can go back to ‘where they came from’ but ‘where they came from’ doesn’t exist.

[@xiomaraortiz5158]

Extremely respectful dialogue, but it seems to me that Hamas has not interest in the two states solution. I am unclear if Israel does want it.

[@joshuafrank3803]

This is my new favorite channel. Thank you for the long format that these conversation deserve.

[@yanadalton5655]

Ezra, your questions are right out of my head. And your interlocutor either circles with words in essence saying yes, Israel has got to go. Your patience is truly holy.

[@ambition112]

0:10: 🔍 The video discusses the need to hold two thoughts at once regarding Hamas and its actions. 5:52: 🤝 The video discusses the potential for reconciliation between Hamas and Israel through political negotiations and concessions. 11:42: 🤝 The video discusses the political equilibrium and collusion between Hamas and Israeli hardliners. 17:38: 🇵🇸 Hamas is willing to accept the creation of a Palestinian state on the 1967 lines with East Jerusalem as its capital and limit its resistance to the Israeli occupation. 23:23: 🇵🇸 The video discusses the importance of resolution 194 to Palestinians and the root causes of the conflict. 29:10: ⚖ The video discusses the issue of Palestinian right of return and its impact on negotiations between Israel and Hamas. 35:13: 💬 The video discusses the flawed notion of security through maintaining oppressive rule over Palestinians and the need to dismantle such systems. 40:57: 🤔 The speaker discusses the challenges faced by Palestinians in achieving security and the right of return. 46:22: 🕊 The peace process between Israel and Palestine faced challenges due to differing perspectives on sovereignty and security. 52:17: 🌍 The video discusses the paradox of Hamas losing control over Gaza while also emerging as a central figure in the Palestinian struggle. 58:14: 🤔 Hamas sees their actions as a victory in disrupting Israeli security and occupation. Recapped using Tammy AI

[@alvaronieto2734]

Enlightening conversation. Great interview and an amazing guest.

[@jeffsims5407]

You need to push back on all the false claims about "giving away 77% of their land" et. al.

[@ronaldwolfe]

I was going to say that it's depressing to hear such a lot of self-serving delusions from our Palestinian friends, but on second thoughts we're used to it. We've gotten used to it over the decades of rejectionism, excuses, and what-aboutery. And it's not just me. The rest of the Arabs have also had a belly-full. Don't see them rushing to help. And as for nobody hearing the Palestinian voice, it's constant and shrill. So nobody listens and "stop interfering in our politics." And when poor old 97yr liberal President of the US (a position that used to mean something), rushes nine thousand miles on day two of the conflict to try to damage limit, or whatever, YOU WON'T EVEN TALK TO HIM! But it's very kind of you Ezra to note that the Jews may also have some issues with displacement. But why did you not mention their displacement from the puzzling-named Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, or from Hebron, or from Gush Etzion (look it up), or indeed from Gaza itself? As for the assessment of the security of Israel that your guest supposes, I fear that he may perhaps have succumbed to confirmation bias. A simple look around should help that, but like so much in certain quarters, probably won't.

[@frankincensemerchant1284]

Most of the Arab populace in the region(and the wider Muslim world) strongly support Palestinians and that is evidenced with the protests in support of them, not to mention last year during the World Cup when Arabs gave the cold shoulder to Israeli media . The governments hardly ever represented the will of the their peoples in this matter.

[@ronaldwolfe]

@@frankincensemerchant1284 This dichotomy is explained by the long-standing tradition of separating actual Palestinian people from the actual Arab people. Egypt, for example, continues to protect the Arab people by not opening a gate, at Rafah. Gives you a warm feeling.

[@user-pn1kb3hj1m]

@@frankincensemerchant1284 The problem that worries me, is the wild celebrations of every atrocity all religious extremists commit, by the Arab street. It's against all westerners, including those trying to help them. In this, local (undemocratic) governments worry - and would have worked for peace DESPITE their bloodthirsty citizens, but for 7/10... Who all want to live in the West, yet hate our values (honour killings in the UK, and plenty admitted agreeing with killing Rushdie - others just kept quiet)

[@frankincensemerchant1284]

@@user-pn1kb3hj1m Israelis(including the elite) have openly called for genocide against Gazans reffering to them as Amalek. To act like its one sided is pathetic. Also the reason why the locals oppse these "peace deals" is becuase they throw Palestinians under the bus and just sanitize Israeli occupation and oppresion of Palestinians which is a daily reality.

[@shainazion4073]

"Historic Palestine" there was never a historic Palestine in all of history. A name taken from the Romans, borders drawn on a map by the British, leaders born in Egypt and Jordan........ Palestinian?????

[@vz17233]

Ugh Could he be more biased in favor of Hamas? It LITERALLY says to destroy Israel on Hamas' charter. Tareq Baconi: "They actually wanted a settlement"

[@zacharyrobertson6944]

That was fascinating.

[@yoelmarson4049]

As much as I wanted to listen to this to gain insights, I was weighed down by so much apologetic rhetoric that I gave up after 30mins

[@misterMagoo4]

Great way to advertise your apathy. 😔

[@Agtsmirnoff]

Yep, a lot of historical revisionism from the guest

[@michalyweiss]

made it to 40. last 10 mins got even worse.

[@joshpatt8341]

@@michalyweiss 40:00 was where Ezra asked the key questions to which the interviewer had no answer. It went downhill after that.

[@blondiegreeneyes4802]

I can understand Klein's reticence to even speak on this issue. I agree with you and it pains me greatly.

[@walterstevens8676]

Really interesting show. Thanks!

[@BurroGirl]

Wow Ezra this is exactly the info I've been wanting as I research and try to understand the Palestinian and Israeli issues. This podcast is so densely packed with important information I'm going through it slowly and repeatedly. Thank you SO much!!! This info needs to go mainstream!

[@valtracey6180]

I totally agree! I have listened to hundreds of podcasts at this stage, but this is the first time I have heard the Hamas perspective - and like you, I am listening to it repeatedly because there is so much here. I am coming to the belief that there is a possible solution, but only if BOTH sides are EQUAL to begin with ie the first move must be to provide Statehood for Palestine, even if it is just for a 22% share of the total. The share is what then needs to be negotiated,but can only be between two recognized States. Why should Israel constantly demand that Palestine recognises its State, but they don’t equally recognize a Palestinian State. I have even heard interviewers ask Palestinian representatives this question ‘if you were granted your own sovereign State, would you be able to govern it’? The implication is clearly there that they don’t believe Palestinian people are capable of this. How arrogant is that? They said the same about most nations that fought for independence from colonizers and empires. When we gained independence in Ireland after more than 700 years of occupation, we had no experience of government, but we quickly learned by making our own mistakes. Locking Palestinians into a cage hasn’t resolved Israel’s security problems so surely it’s time to release them and make amends?

[@rosamundeandorfeo]

@@valtracey6180 yes! It's Israel's responsibility to make the first move, as they are the ones with power. You can't ask a non-state entity to give away the one bargaining tool they have, to say: we won't recognize you until you recognize us, and allow us a state. Otherwise they have nothing. That's what Baconi means by negotiate from "a position of strength." WHich is why it's so sickening to hear one Israeli or American Zionist after another, insist that Palestinians always walk away from the negotiating table. There have been so few good-faith negotiations.

[@RichardLewisCaldwell]

Not bad, Ezra. I learned some stuff and gave you some gruff. Thumbs up.

[@mtotheptothed]

Best episode on the topic so far.

[@jmagaram]

I keep listening to “moderate” well-educated pro-Palestinian voices and I am getting more and more radicalized because they all seem to speak the same language of “right of return”, apartheid, colonialism, etc. There seems to be zero responsibility taken for the Palestinian situation. I’d like to hear just one person say “we should have accepted the 1948 borders”. Hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees were able to “start over”. They were pushed out of Europe and most Arab countries to the extent there are nearly zero remaining in the Muslim countries. Why have the Palestinians been so unwilling to accept facts on the ground and try to build a better future for their children? “Right of return”’ is a total dead end in any negotiation. Jihadism is a cancer that undermines the Palestinian cause and creates chaos all over the world, not just Israel. Yes the settlements in the West Bank are a big problem. But that ignores the bigger narrative that the Palestinians reject an Israel of any size and any borders going back to 1948 and Israel has had to fight a series of defensive wars. Usually the victor in wars gets to keep what they conquer. If Israel left tomorrow would there be peace? No. We’d probably have a second Iran run by Hamas that would then spread jihadism to neighboring states.

[@RC-qf3mp]

You are simply tone deaf and so biased as to have a warped conception of reality on this issue. The offered 1948 borders were a disaster. The expelled Jews from Europe had a legitimate gripe and legitimate demand for their own land free from oppression… and they are owed that by Germany and Italy and should’ve been given land within Germany along with reparations. Palestine had nothing to do with European antisemitism. Imagine Mexican illegal immigrants invading your house and saying, well, we can give you half of your house. BS. Now imagine the illegal immigrants have the strongest military in the world supporting them. For decades. And they start abusing you and creating walls and video cameras everywhere to demoralize. And half your family escapes and become refugees and just want to go home. But they can’t go home, but the illegals invite more and more to come from all over the world take up more of YOUR space. It’s utterly absurd once you get out of your echo chamber.

[@benjamingoldstein6298]

"Usually the victor in wars gets to keep what they conquer. " No, this violates the Geneva Conventions. Wars are no longer fought this way.

[@jmagaram]

Hmmm. I didn’t know that. Israel has often claimed the additional land forms a security buffer zone and they have repeatedly offered to trade back that land for a promise of security as they did with Egypt. They gave back Gaza with no promise of peace. After the 67 war the Arab nations gave their famous 3 Nos of Khartoum. No recognition, negotiation, or peace.

[@Grandhotel256]

UN law say land grabbed through war is Not legal

[@pcolt4]

No. Wrong. Murder and dispossession and forcible expulsion are not acceptable under any conditions. Full stop. All of your blathering doesn't change that.

[@gejost]

"Yes, this poll had a small sample size and yes it's 'hard' [due to fact people's lives can be endangered when they speak against violent groups] to get representative samples ..."

[@lynnmaycroft531]

That was a TOTALLY amazing conversation!! Wow! I feel like I have just had a front row seat at an opening to peace talks between Palestine and Israel. This conversation explained so much that I have never heard before in my 67 years on what this dispute is about -- and I wish you could have taken the conversation further. But really, in order for this information to sink in I feel I need to listen to the whole hour maybe three or four more times. Thank you Ezra for another eye-opening show.

[@rd-tb1uw]

Theres an old saying " the proof is in the pudding" anyone who witnessed the atrocities inflicted on October 7 and doesn't call for the complete destruction of hamas and their ideology is in total denial of the truth.

[@stevenponte6655]

Where do the 6000+ Gazans killed by the IDF (including 2000 children) over the previous 15 years (compared to approx 300 Israelis) feature in your “pudding”?

[@shaytheo]

Great show! Thanks.

[@stellabrown909]

Thank you so much for the guest….he is very well spoken and a voice of reason.

[@svetakostinsky7000]

Hi @Ezra! It would be great if you could have a conversation with Dr. Einat Wilf . I think it would be extremely valuable. Thank you!

[@allydea]

I think something that commentators intentionally refuse to discuss is the cultural differences. Even if tomorrow Israel would decide to have equal rights, full compensation, there would be no peace. Because Palestinians are hard core Islamists, they want their society rules. They want women covered amd uneducated, they want Koran worship. That is contrary to Israel way of life. I see them here in Europe all the time. At some point there was a militia in a Duch town, in a neighborhood that was harassing women on the streets because they were looking differently than they should. It ended with the police intervention. Europe as a whole realized that cultures are different and is the reason people don't want immigration here anymore.

[@adamesd3699]

Very interesting discussion. It does make things clearer. Ezra asked good questions that elicited useful answers.

[@montpelier3]

ty

[@mitchellkaplan718]

This is painful. This man justifies the attitudes of the farthest-right Israelis. Surely there are more reasonable representatives of Palestinian aspirations -- i.e., more open to coexistence and compromise. PS - His suggestion re post-Apartheid South Africa is deceptive. Yes, obviously, Apartheid had to end -- but the outcome has been very dysfunctional so far, and not just for the Afrikaners. I have spent some time there, and I can tell you, people are miserable. Crime has increased exponentially, real estate values have plummeted, etc. etc. There has been a lot of retribution, which is understandable; but the situation could have been handled much, much better.

[@lmdeboom]

The guest tries to defend Hamas when their manifesto suggests the annihilation of the Jews. Their action shows their intent very clearly. How about the Middle Eastern Jews who were displaced from different Arab nations, do they have the right to return?

[@kevinwoolley7960]

This is a high quality discussion, and I learned a great deal about how Hamas views the situation. I don't agree with them, and I think Ezra should have pushed back aggressively on some of his guest's assertions, but this is really valuable.

[@yubable]

his guest wasn't speaking on behalf of Hamas. he was explaining what Hamas is doing what it's doing. Ezra did the right thing by not pushing anything aggressively.

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

It's common thinking out of experience that you don't have a fair chance in negotiations if you are weak. It's human psychology.

[@drekmastermind]

Not all negotiations can work, sometimes arbitrations fail because there are unavoidable differences. In the way he puts it, the right of return is no starter from both sides. So endless conflict or one side killing the other. At least its good to know what to expect.

[@RomanGolubev_A]

As Avi Shlaim quotes, I'm paraphrasing, 1st by importance demand of the PLO was return of the refugees and 2nd is their own state. Israel would never agree to the 1st demand and that makes any negotiations futile. Even if there were a single body representing wishes of palestinians, if their demand were returning of refugees, any negotiations with Israel would be futile.

[@petercoville]

@ezraklein I have been enjoying & learning from your podcasts on #Gaza. Nevertheless, just after Tareq Baconi explained all the different ways Hamas has been prepared to compromise, you continued to characterize them as uncompromising (like Likud) & so the situation as hopeless.

[@whdc425]

Wars have consequences. Can’t keep losing over and over and saying the victors owe you something

[@keep-ukraine-free528]

@whdc425 Your point shows many levels of ignorance. "War" can only occur between two groups with equal human rights & autonomy. This isn't the case in Gaza. Gaza is a concentration camp for families, which has been blockaded by Israel, and turned into a giant tomb. Israel controls their water, fuel, food, electricity, medicine, even the air. So you can't have a "war" between the victims locked in the tomb and the people outside freely drinking sweet Zionist wine.

[@s13rr4buf3]

The implicit threat that they wield is that there is an enormous army of Muslim extremists surrounding Israel from all sides. It's not just the ones in Gaza.

[@iillii5]

On the right of return, Egypt lost Sinai which was promptly colonised with settlers so what did Egypt do? Assess their positions and negotiate in accordance with their capacity. They tried war and it didn't work unlike Hamas who are yet to take the note

[@moma8956]

"They tried a war and it didn't work" Fantastic tactical analysis of the Yom Kippur War lol.

[@johnwright6102]

Interesting how Baconi twists the discussion into defending/rationalizing the role Hamas plays in defending the Palestinian position. A bit like arguing that Hitler's position was worthy in defending the German state. Think about it.

[@motionthings]

Good talk

[@SanityIsland]

To abuse and massacre people for their ethnicity requires a mentality I really think is beneath comprehension. A kind of possession that cannot be reasoned with. Unless you understand the victims you cannot understand the perpetrators. Evil is beyond reason. I won't give any human beings an excuse for being a horrible human being. We are all responsible for our actions and there can be no justification for the things terrorists do. None. Deal with your problems. Don't destroy people. They aren't one and the same.

[@grahamc3963]

So refreshingly civil. Damn.

[@existentialvoid]

Tour podcasts have really helped me digest a lot of these complicated issues. As a jew raised in Asia - it has been difficult for me to square my anger at Arab intransigence and the destruction of so many lives in Gaza as well. . . Thank you

[@yahavrave]

This particular episode if full of propaganda and lies, sorry to disappoint you. Hamas isn't a freedom fighting organization trying to save their people. If they were. They would use their tunnels ars bomb shelters for the Gaza civilians, they wouldn't go into Israel to rape women and burn families alive. Show me the freedome fighters elsewhere who behaved in such a barbaric fashion?

[@andysturges3979]

This guest is the best pro Palestinian proponent I have ever heard. He still failed to managed to mention that Hamas teaches its children to murder Jewish civilians because of their race. He failed to mention that when Israel gave them the equivalent of Mayor of Gaza that they used that position to build an army to launch a surprise attack to kill Israeli civilians and thus proven that they must never be allowed enough power to build an army ever again. He keeps speaking about Hamas as if it has the capability of being a responsible neighbor of not murdering its neighbors children when their behavior and Constitution shows that that is who they are. I am glad that I finally found the most powerful pro Palestinian argument because it doesn't measure up and it shows once again that Israel must never allow a Palestinian government that can build an army like it did in Gaza these last few years.

[@tinapan9792]

A very good interniew

[@kereneldad2960]

Right off the bat, you allowed him to go on a rant insisting that the Hamas position is full of conciliatory energy - whilst not ONCE demonstrating how, when and where, exactly they would recognize Israel's right to exist and to exist there -- where and as it is. So.... the rest is a moot point. Anyway, thanks for trying, I guess, to speak to a pro Hamas person, so we can hear it first-hand?

[@keep-ukraine-free528]

@kereneldad2960 What you claim wasn't said, was in fact said. I hope you can do a better job listening. And not blaming others for your flaws. This seems to be the "Israeli" position -- ignoring its 75 years of brutal apartheid, etc. and pretending it is innocent. The truth of today shows us Israelis support its extremist government killing innocent people. (Remember, Palestinian children caused none of this - but YOU'VE LET ISRAEL KILL 7000+ CHILDREN).

[@aaronrodgers77]

People should read The War of Return by Adi Schwartz and Einat Wilf

[@natbirchall1580]

No hope. This will result in a bigger wall and more silence.

[@Eged282]

This podcast is very misleading! (And I do respect Ezra).historically speaking,In the late 40s there were about 100 “Nakbas” around the world, and that included the expulsion of many ethnic groups such as the Jews and other minorities from their homes..due to the 2nd world war.The land of Israel, was GIVEN to the Jews, while the local Arabs(who called themselves Palestinians thanks to a PLO terminology since 1963 ish), chose to fight the Jews while disagreeing to the UN partition plan. THAT is a fact that wasn’t mentioned in this podcast. Enough of this woke progressive propaganda already. The Mufti of Jerusalem was antisemite since the 20s. Did this podcast mention the pogroms of 1921, 1929 and 1936!!?? No it didn’t. The gust fails to mention too many historical facts prior to 48, and AFTER 67. Instead of being incited to violence the Palestinians could resort to cooperation with Jews like their brothers Arab Israelis who chose to stay and are living a very comfortable life(although I don’t say perfect). I do agree that Hamas was a godsend to right wingers such as Netanyahu, who banked on THEIR violence to stay in power since 1995, and after 2000s.

[@frankincensemerchant1284]

Why would Palestinians accept the shameless U.N deal which awarded the Zionists 55%of the land despite owning only 7% of the land, and making up 33% of the population(most of whom were fairly recent arrivals in the years prior). So yes ofc Arabs rejected such a stupid offer. As for Arab-Israelis they are literally 2nd class citizens in Israel and things have been getting worse for them as successive Israeli governments have gotten more right-wing.

[@shainazion4073]

​@@frankincensemerchant1284 Why were the Arabs given 77% of the land, to become trans-Jordan leaving only 23% to become the future Jewish state? Why did the Arabs turn down the 1937 Peel Commission offer of 80% of the land? They turned this down because they didn't want the Jews to even have the 17% offered to them (4% of the original Mandate of Palestine lands). The 55% of the lands partitioned to the Jews was the majority of the Negev desert with no agricultural abilities and no infustructure, while the Arabs were partitioned the best farmland in the state, the Jordan Valley, with already existing infustructure!! Remember the Arabs already were given the 77% of the Mandate of Palestine as Trans-Jordan.

[@shainazion4073]

​@@frankincensemerchant1284 And, most people claiming to be Palestinians are not from Palestine. They are Muslim refugees invited into the land in the 1800s and 1900s by the Ottomans. Bosniaks, Circassians, Chechins and Sudanese are not Palestinians! And most of the others, Arab laborers that came into the land as support personnel for the British and because of the prosperity brought by the Jews reclaiming the land. Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, Iraqis and Lebanese are not Palestinians!

[@frankincensemerchant1284]

@@shainazion4073 In the case of Syrians and Jordanians they are part of the Levant which Palestine was part of and well integrated with. Clans have members in all regions going back centuries. As for other Muslims like Circassians, Sudanese, etc. they became integrated into Palestinian society(not every Palestinian is ethnically Arab) some of these people like certain Kurdish families has settled in the region hundreds of years going back to the Crusader period and intermarried with the local people.

[@doronmutsafi]

My two Israeli POV cents (or shekels), the reason the Palestinians insist on the right of return is because they know israel will not accept it. It’s a basic middle eastern negotiation tactics. Another one is that who ever we end up sitting down with can not really take any decisions for the Palestinians as a nation. Really frustrating

[@keep-ukraine-free528]

@doronmutsafi Your "argument" is flawed. It presents a falsity, & uses that assumption to "prove" the assumption. The Right To Return is actually fair, under a 2-State Solution (it's one of many reasons why this solution is better). In a 2-State, most Palestinians would return to Palestine - few would return to Israel. So it won't shift Israel's voting & demographic numbers by much. Israelis (really, the Zionists) find the Right To Return as antithetical because Israel today is not democratic (it's more like a theocracy). Its laws favor the Jewish religion. If the Right to Return were allowed, we know the population would be about equal - giving equal voting power to Palestinians. Since Zionists don't want Palestinians to vote (today they can''t), so they outright dismiss the Right to Return - even though this Right is preferred & equitable in a 2-State Solution. They create this falsity because they say the only option is a "1-State Solution" (because, again, Zionists don't want Palestinians to get land - their own state - that Israel wants all of). This Zionist/Israeli position is fundamentally flawed due to racism & hate, held by Jews & Muslims against one other. It's why the 2-State Solution is the only viable option. It allows the Right to Return, & maximizes safety for all. Please learn history and logic. It would allow you to not make inconsistent, even nonsensical, arguments.

[@dascott60]

I would say it differently - the "Right of Return" position is all about symmetry. The Israeli's have it and there will not be equality without symmetry.

[@nowamajormotionpictureeven3797]

None of the Arab majority countries that Jewish people were expelled from are offering Jewish people the right of return though.

[@bluedreams517]

I think the right of return is non feasible. BUT I also get the idea that there's and asymmetry and thus injustice in the current system. There and asymmetry when there are Palestinians whose people were pushed out and would love to return after just 75 years have past, while there are also people of Jewish ancestry who can return whenever whose nearest ancestor hasn't lived in the region for millenia with extreme ease. That also doesn't make any sense and from a Palestinian perspective I could see how that would be seen as a form of cruel injustice.

[@nowamajormotionpictureeven3797]

@@bluedreams517 what I am trying to point out is that the 1948 war population transfer went both ways. The majority of Jewish people living in Israel right now were expelled from Arab/Muslim majority countries. If they don't have a right of return to Iran for instance then it's not asymmetry to say that Arabs displaced by the 1948 war don't have a right of return to Israel. What would be symmetry, would be for the countries who invaded Israel in 1948 to offer a right of return to the Arab population displaced by that war.

[@kaboom146]

And also that poll is the opposite ofbwhat the Princeton survey found.

[@moodist1er]

@4:00 - @5:00 do you hear yourself? 🙃