1970 Trimph TR6 Restoration Project - Part 8 - How to degree the camshaft

The cam degreeing video is here. I tried to keep it simple, but it is a science, it can’t be too easy :). I even built a 3D model of a crank to make it more visual and I hope it is clear enough. I personally got lost in my explanations a couple of times LOL
Macy's Garage website - www.macysgarage...

[@cabdriveruk]

Great video's Elin, very informative. Nice to see people keeping these old great british cars alive. Cheers, Jeff.

[@kge420]

This is becoming more clear to me. Thanks for taking time out from your work and family to make these videos.

[@RustyBeauties]

Thanks for this comment. I am happy you understand it takes time. Regular videos take long to edit, but this one was a disaster as I wanted to make it as clear as possible (I hope it made sense after all). But many people do not realize that. I admire guys like Cheftush and Mustie1, who can talk smooth and explain what they do while shooting and then editing takes them minutes. This doesn't work very well for me though, because when I talk on camera I have to cut later lots of "aaahhhh"s and "mmmmmmm"s and "aaaaaand"s..... Just my English words don't come that fast in my head and if I want to say what I want to say and not what is similar to what I want to say I have to do a voiceover and be able to think in advance about what am I going to say. And that takes time. And time becomes so precious....

[@johnlee55555]

Love the details of this video! Kinda shows what your workmanship is like!!

[@punkbloater]

I was watching as fast as I could... so my attention span dissorder did not have a chance to kick in. ;) But seriously , you've managed to get some engine knowledge into my brain, thank you. I have never buildt an engine and I'm not planning to do it either, I just love to see people that actually can do stuff and... can do it well!

[@RustyBeauties]

Thank you. You never know when you're going to need the knowledge. I also watch people doing things that I have no intentions doing, just so I know how are they done, but maybe one day.... If someone told me 5 years ago I will be restoring classic cars I wouldn't believe it. I always wanted to, but I was doing sooo different things at that time. Well here I am today doing it and enjoying it.

[@FanatikBuilds]

This is very interesting. On cars these days, it seems to me that we just trust the markings on a timing belt and cam gears, and hope that the manufacture got it right. But the method you're showing here makes so much sense, as you know now exactly what's going on. More work, but it takes the guessing out of it! Thanks for taking the time to make this Elin, very good of you!

[@RustyBeauties]

Thanks Michael. I find that the new after market timing gears come without any marks. And the reason is because many times they fit more than one engine, but with different position. So the manufacturers don't put any marks and this way they can sell one gear for couple applications. That makes it harder to follow the marks, though :) So the degree wheel is the only way to time the engine in this case. What is very important though is to have the spec for the camshaft. In my case it appears that the cam in the engine is not original TR6 and I don't have the spec. The engine is running rough and I am guessing that the timing is wrong. Even though I went with the safer method of equally open valves at TDC it still might be wrong, because sometimes the performance cams open the intake much earlier before TDC, but also they close the exhaust earlier after TDC and the overlap is not symetrical anymore. i.e. the valves are equally open 7 - 8 degrees before TDC. But without the spec I do not know those numbers. So what I will do is I will open the timing cover again and I will collect all the data I can from the shaft, which is duration of the cycle for both valves and the overlap. I can't find how the opening and closing point relate to TDC and BDC, but at least the other parameters will help me look the cam up and compare it with other cam specs. It is tricky, but at least it is extremely interesting for me :)

[@FanatikBuilds]

It is very interesting yes, and I know you will figure it all out! I have no idea what cam our engine has, I hope it is factory, but we'll see I guess. We are still a ways off from digging into it, Dad would like to get the body finished first, and I think that's a good plan. The car ran pretty well when we got it, but I think it's just good housekeeping to go over the motor, and at the bare minimum replace all the seals and gaskets. So hopefully we can tackle it ourselves, and these videos of yours will be very helpful! Thanks again for making them man!

[@RustyBeauties]

It sounds like a good plan, yes, one step at a time. But you should consider full disassembly, cleaning and inspecting the engine. If you only change gaskets you will go half that way, so it is worth going all the way. I only changed gaskets on my MK2 and you know what happened, it blew the headgasket on the first long -"ish" drive. Also I didn't have chance to drive it too much before I had to park it for the winter - maybe 200km, but for that time I had to readjust the exhaust valve on the 1-st cylinder 4 or 5 times. So there is something wrong there and checking it is #1 in my to do list when I take it out of hibernation. So I wouldn't do the same mistake again. For my MK3 engine the plan is (I don't know when will that be, but anyways) to make it drive as it is and yard drive it as much as possible - not like the MK2 just few back and forths. I wan't to be able to assess the engine, diff, trannies and have an idea where to pay more attention. Then take everything apart, inspect, clean, change what needs changing etc. My diff didn't leak at all while the restoration was going on, but as soon as I started driving.... it leaks like crazy now - so #2 in my list - change diff seals....So lesson learned - "don't fix what ain't broken" not valid anymore. Better "check if it's broken so you don't disassemble what you just assembled". My opinion anyways.

[@FanatikBuilds]

Oh, I don't think I knew that! Sorry to hear about the headgasket Elin, that's a real pain after all the work you put into it. That's exactly the outcome I don't want to have with ours... do all the work to get it looking good and on the road, and have some major mechanical problem in the first outing. I need to do some more convincing to get Dad on board, as he's a little hesitant to dig into the motor -- but worst case, I feel we could strip it down and label where everything went, and if we really needed, we could get a shop (like yours) to finish rebuilding it. But I'd like to try to tackle it ourselves, and we'd be much better off getting it all checked and know that everything is all good inside it. With the amount of work involved in just reconditioning something we already have, I have pondered the thought of stuffing a Rover 3.5 V8 into the car! Sadly, it just starts snow-balling though, and next we'd need a new tranny, axles, diff, brakes.... ugh. Maybe a project in the future though! :) Thanks for the insight and wisdom Elin, it is appreciated and thankfully I've still got time to break down my father. lol Cheers!

[@DIY_Schrauben]

There is only one thing to say: Wow, just wow! Please keep going on to share these things with us. :)

[@solomonbowie5185]

i know Im randomly asking but does any of you know of a tool to get back into an instagram account? I somehow forgot the account password. I would appreciate any assistance you can offer me

[@enochpatrick4498]

@Solomon Bowie Instablaster ;)

[@johncollier7744]

What a brilliant video, took me back to when I attended college as a young apprentice using three dial gauges to determine the valve overlap and TDC. Your animation video was very good, a bit different from when I learned it if a blackboard and chalk diagram. When you get tired of the manual work, you would make an excellent tutor in mentoring up and coming trainees. The camshaft must be a high performance one given the massive difference in the valve timing against the figures quoted in the manual

[@RustyBeauties]

Thank you, John! I tried to make it visual with the animated crank, so it is seen how the degrees relate to the actual shaft. When I was watching people explaining that they only showed the wheel and it was hard for me to imagine this was the end of the crank actually. Also they always showed the wheel stationary and they turned their finger around it... So I decide to make it more realistic. HAHA I need a lot of tutoring myself before I get to tutor, but thanks for the high mark you are giving me. Yeah, it looks like a performance cam. As I just said to Cheftush it was so stupid of me not to go through all the parameters of the cam - duration, lift, overlap.... It would be good to have the spec just in case, but....

[@johncollier7744]

Elin ! Just thought the camshaft could be out of a 2.5 injection engine. There is a lot of talk on the Internet of people swapping cam shafts for better emissions and or performance. This weblink showing different options and may provide a clearer answer to the camshaft fitted www.chriswitor.com/products.php?cat=254&pg=2

[@RustyBeauties]

Thanks for the link, John! I checked the specs on all of the cams there and also some in the Moss Motors web site. The earliest the inlet opens is 37 BTDC. I am starting to think that the one in the engine might not have symmetrical overlap and the valves are not equally open at TDC. So my timing might be wrong and hence the 52 BTDC is not 52..... Go figure..... It is hard to work without the spec. The engine runs and idles smooth, but it starts hard when warm . It might be from the carbs - (they are missing the air cleaners) and it was acting the exact same way before I took it apart. Too many unknown stuff I have to eliminate some of it. Maybe I will fit the carbs from the 73 TR6, I know they are good. I think I will have to collect some more data from the camshaft, especially the duration and I will try to recreate the spec. Or I will just swap the cam with one of the two that came with our 74 TR6, but I don't know anything about them either. I just hope they are stock...

[@markrobinson8539]

Thank you for all the work that you put into this. Here is what I did and I think it came out of the factory manual. As you said at TDC (non power stroke) the exhaust valve and the inlet valves are both equally open. I adjusted the clearance on each of these two valves to be say 100 thou or maybe 200 - I forget after all these years. but the gaps MUST must be equal. Adjustment is done when the valves are fully closed just as you would do on a normal service. Then when I turn the engine to TDC (non power stroke) I can measure the valve clearance (lash). You must have set a big enough gap before so that there is still a valve clearance even though the pushrod is on the start of the cam lobe. If there is an equal gap at TDC then you have got the timing correct. You can measure the gap with feeler gauges Of course when you have finished you must then reduce the valve clearances back to the factory spec. This worked for me without using a dial gauge etc. Give it a try and see if it works for you sometime. Timing is done with just a set of feeler gauges.

[@RustyBeauties]

Yes, this is how it is explained in the manual and it is much simpler too, but I have couple of issues with this method. First off the head must be on and rocker shaft installed too. I prefer to do the timing much earlier in the process of rebuilding even though there is nothing wrong with doing it at the end. But my bigger issue is that this method involves measuring twice with feeler gauges and to be honest I don't trust my feeler gauge operating skills too much. There are two very important moments in this process where you need absolutely precise measurement taken with feeler gauge and if you do a small mistake with one of them everything goes wrong. So I am not saying this method is not good, but I prefer to use dial gauge.

[@markrobinson8539]

Yes I think the dial gauge method is much more accurate and to be preferred. As an experiment did you try moving the camshaft sprocket one tooth either way to see how much of an error this produces. It may be so far out that the feeler gauge error will insignificant..

[@RustyBeauties]

You are right, the difference would be significant. I didn't try, but it is easy to calculate. The cam gear has 42 teeth, so one tooth is 360 / 42 = 8.57 degrees. This will transfer into 4.285 degrees on the crank. We already know from the video that approximately 1 degree on the crank equals 2.5 thou on the push rod, so 4.285 degrees times 2.5 thou will be more than 10 thou difference on the pushrod from one tooth to the other. So you are right, the difference would be significant. And especially if you use 2 feeler gauges at the same time and you can compare how easy they slide it wouldn't be that easy to make a mistake. Thanks for making me think!

[@markrobinson8539]

Thank you for crunching all those figures. Makes me feel better about my technique. How was the chain pulley alignment? When I did mine I could only get the straight edge to touch in 3 places and there was always a 6 thou gap in the same place. I figured that my block had not been bored straight and the camshaft and crankshaft were not exactly parallel. This lead to excessive camshaft keeper wear.

[@RustyBeauties]

The pulleys aligned perfectly without any shims. When I was taking it apart there weren't any either and I thought that whoever rebuilt the engine before just didn't bother aligning them, but obviously it didn't need shims.

[@mikegoodman4133]

I must have been watching too fast because after while you started to sound exactly like my high school math teacher. LOL. I think if I ever have to do this, I'll just send it to you! Thanks for the video.

[@RustyBeauties]

Hahaah, so it was boring :)

[@howardsmiller]

You talk about the valve being fully open halfway between the start end end degree point. But... how do you know that the cam lobe is symmetrical? The highest point *could* be almost anywhere. Or am I - quite likely - missing something? Your equally open method further assumes that the inlet and exhaust are the same shape. If either are asymmetrical I don't think this works. Although, I haven't had coffee yet and may not have properly thought it through :) An inlet cam that opens that early would be a race cam of some sort. Built for screaming high revs :-D

[@0richbike]

outstandingly useful stuff mate. I owe you a beer!

[@RustyBeauties]

Send it my way :) How was the compression?

[@0richbike]

Elin Yakov well I stuck a slightly suspect head on with the old gasket and compression went from all over the place to about 195 except 1 cylinder at 175 but that might well be the head. But I have a bad feeling the crank is out as it makes a noise on hand cranking it.

[@cheftush]

Owie...my brain hurts! Thanks for the video Elin. I know who I'm going to call when I do mine 😉

[@RustyBeauties]

It would be pleasure and honor to help you. Are you sure you can trust me?

[@cheftush]

Elin Yakov sure I'd trust you! Hey, have you checked out a channel calked Fanatik Builds ? Ontario guys building a GT6...

[@RustyBeauties]

I'd come with pleasure! As I said before any time you need a third and a fourth hand just let me know. I'd love to help. Never ran into this channel, but I will check it out. I just decided I am taking a day off tomorrow (first one in ages) and it looks like I will spend it in KZbin LOL, so thanks for the hint, I will check those guys.

[@SteveDentonClassics]

Love the videos Elin, subscribed!!!

[@RustyBeauties]

Thank you Steve! I appreciate it!

[@peterwilson2588]

Hello Elin, Many thanks for all your excellent videos. I have a 73 PI TR6 and am chasing a rough running problem. I changed out an unknown cam for a CP three ring cam and have degreed that - inlet fully open at 105deg ATDC. So far so good but as you found on your video my DTI shows opening beginning at approx 54deg BTDC.. Yet I am sure this is a standard UK PI CP cam( Inlet open 35deg). Have you any thoughts on this please?? Kind regards Peter Wilson, Whangarei, New Zealand

[@robertbrandywine]

So your only adjustment is to move the chain one or more teeth on the sprocket?

[@bullwhipjohnson8247]

I wonder what the difference would be if the chain tensioner were installed?

[@RustyBeauties]

I don't think there would be a difference, because the tensioner takes care of the slack of the chain, which I always make sure is on the left side of the gears. That is why I always approach the point I am looking for in the clockwise direction.

[@bullwhipjohnson8247]

Elin Yakov I don't fully understand why it's necessary to degree a camshaft. I only know it's better if you do. Thanks for making these videos and responding to my comments.

[@cheftush]

Is there any stamping numbers on the end of the camshaft Elin?

[@RustyBeauties]

Nothing, just the positioning mark. Real mystery... I should have re-created the spec while I had the degree wheel and the gauge on, but I didn't think of that. So stupid of me. Now I don't know what I am dealing with. Comes to show my lack of experience....

[@cosimogiordano231]

Salve ,avrei bisogno di un suo consiglio per una Triumph TR4 sport del 1963 ha una mail dove potersi scrivere?

[@RustyBeauties]

Cosimo Giordano [e-mail]