2021 | Kath Deves & Holly Lawford-Smith

[@mariamcallister2464]

What about inciting violence against women. It's very graphic, grotesque language used against the most mild mannered disagreement day and day out? Can something be done about this? I found it deeply upsetting to be called a stupid ape for using sex instead of gender and to be told that I deserved to die in a fire

[@deves_katherine]

I agree entirely, it is breathtaking hypocrisy that women can receive grotesque and vicious threats with seemingly no consequence for those issuing them.

[@candisebenefer2242]

Great review of 2021. Especially the last segment, clarifying vilification and hate speech. Thank you to you both, on the work you have both done through out the year. And especially for the media representation you have both done , not only articulated our position brilliantly, but being prepared to visually be spokeswoman in the the media for us. Thank you to you both.🙏. The best of the festive season to you , and all of us . HAPPY NEW YEAR 🥳. See everyone on 2022.

[@RB-jl2qb]

The 3 comments Holly read at the end considered vilification against Clinch should definitely not be vilification unless Australian law says that biological sex doesn’t exist in law. Surely that isn’t the case unless magistrates have all been listening to ACON’s version of the Law? Has Australian law completely erased sex and replaced it with gender identity? With regard to laws against inciting violence - how is it that verbally inciting violence is considered worse than laws that actually allow violence to occur ( like putting male sexual predators who identify as women in women’s prisons). Why can’t the state be taken to court for putting in place laws and policies that allow violence to occur?

[@JH-xv3iw]

None of what you have read out here would cause a problem in the UK if it was expressed verbally or via social media. The Appeal in the Kate Scottow case in UK could be helpful too, because it set a precedent, wherein Justice Warby said: "The prosecution argument failed entirely to acknowledge the well-established proposition that free speech encompasses the right to offend, and indeed to abuse another." See also an earlier precedent: Lord Justice Sir Stephen Sedley said in a 1999 ruling [Redmond-Bate v Director of Public Prosecutions [1999] 7 BHRC 375, [20]] : “Free speech includes not only the inoffensive but the irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and the provocative provided it does not tend to provoke violence. Freedom only to speak inoffensively is not worth having”.

[@hollylawford-smith]

yes - i think the problem is that our state's vilification laws are more extensive than this. so we will be more restricted in our speech than the UK. for example, VIC's current law, which at the moment only covers race and religion (but next year will extend to gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, sex characteristics, and disability), has the wording: "conduct that incites hatred against, serious contempt for, or revulsion or severe ridicule of, that other person or class of persons."

[@Me-sv4kv]

Thanks for the conversation and your work. Could the recent UK decision regarding Harry Miller (Fair Cop) and "non crime hate crimes" have any bearing on what might happen regarding similar allegations in Australia?

[@hollylawford-smith]

i'll ask kath what she thinks!

[@deves_katherine]

Potentially. We can look to other jurisdictions for decisions to rely on, particularly in a novel area of law. We are obviously not bound to follow UK law anymore, but if it is a precedent it can certainly influence or guide judicial decisions.

[@CatherineKarena]

Interesting talk, I do hope we have a better year than last.

[@TERFTalkDownUnder]

Thanks for going over the Beth Rep case. So it's ok to call women 'bleeders' and 'people with vaginas' but TW can't be called 'penis people'!? That made me so angry... I think Woketoria needs some test cases so maybe we'll be it!

[@hollylawford-smith]

makes me angry too! it's a ludicrous double standard.

[@milobell5525]

I found you two while watching Graham Linehans site and as i'm living in Australia i was curious to see who was speaking up and doing stuff (for want of a better word) over here. You are! As you pointed out to Graham, Australia is a tad behind the UK when it comes to these serious, scary issues but the storm clouds are definitely gathering and i wish you both luck in bringing this insidious bollocks (for want of a better expression) to the attention of the wider public.

[@nickofhelmet]

Thanks for the conversation. Really enjoyed it. So much happened this year... but I feel maybe the tide is turning a little?

[@hollylawford-smith]

glad you feel that way! i'm not quite sure what to think. i worry it's going to get worse before it gets better.

[@fruitytea]

I have serious drink envy now. And you both have a great sparkle game.

[@lorygloss]

Thank you for this lovely Terfmas celebration, you both look amazing! Happy new year!

[@soniaess28]

Merry Terfmas and a Terfy New Year ❤

[@sueedwards9334]

Agree with Kath - low bar fir vilification. All just statements of fact. Women being told to be quiet again, and Hilly seems to agree? Meanwhile men continue to vilify women.

[@joydot7620]

I can’t believe how fast oz has fallen. Nz no surprise as at best it’s hyperbole & horseshit but oz!?? It’s all shockingly Canada! My earliest venture into politics was age 16 - in every country & at every level, uni incl, the dearth of talent was worrying, ease of progression astonishing… those chickens have come home to roost. Your PM is family so you can make some educated guesses as to how much I’m the extended family black sheep - it’s made me fearless. Bossy, angry determined Women have to run for office, learn to love being respected over being liked. We have to knock into the lads full on. I am currently based in uk & have concerns about the lack of female interest in taking control of our systems / narrative. (Newcomer USA is burning down the house). The written word will only take us so far so what you 2 are doing, Chandler etc matters. Keep making people nervous - anger is the only way anything changes as it forces conversation/ thought. My tip - fundraise a decent legal fund now so the idiots know it’s in place, it will reduce/ slow progression of stupidity. Loudly proclaim you will make people unreasonably targeting you homeless. In uk we always scramble/ panic after the fact which doesn’t work in business & won’t work in this either. Enjoy 2022. 😵‍💫💃🦖🦕🤩

[@katespellxx9529]

Finally watching this, thank you both so much! You are incredible warrior woman, totally inspiring, thank you for all that you do. Absolutely you are getting great with the media Kath! You speak for me! It is wonderful to be reminded of what happened last year, it all goes by so fast, one stupid thing after another, sometimes you just have to find your women supports and have a good laugh and cry to keep going. I personally find it difficult to remember so much bullshit because it hurts to know it. So very proud to stand beside you as part of the Australian Women's Movement. #RespectHer

[@jenem583]

Thank you for this. You both are amazing.