#206

Once again Matt from The Linux Cast is back on the show and of course he's here to talk about some of comments he's been making about the adoption of Wayland.
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#Linux #OpenSource #FOSS #Wayland #Xorg
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[@nellfs]

HE SAID THE CORRECT EPISODE NUMBER

[@BrodieRobertson]

I checked this time

[@nellfs]

@@BrodieRobertson Great job

[@keyboard_g]

Fedora attempting to drop X11 is part of the pressure to fill in the gaps in Wayland. We needed someone big to send a signal.

[@hammerheadcorvette4]

They've been doing it since Fedora 30 and 34 big. It's time. XWayland will continue for a while anyway to sooth things over.

[@unpotatoedsalmon]

Wayland is garbage, the orginization and the people in charge of mataining wayland are morons

[@CEOofGameDev]

The crossover of a generation...

[@Jokerlevin]

Matt talks about Linux like that guy in the class who has to present a book he didn't read.

[@mskiptr]

> wlroots is not anywhere near suckless Xorg is not anywhere near suckless.

[@KoopstaKlicca]

Xorg is antithetical to everything suckless lol

[@vendetta.02]

@@KoopstaKlicca fr

[@damianateiro]

suckless is impossible as such although it is much better x11 than wayland for that

[@Wampa842]

but dwm itself can be suckless because all it does is give out rectangles. It doesn't need to have an X server and compositor inside itself.

[@deviantsemicolon618]

​@Tanmaydeshpande-ne9gcyes but xserver is roughly 400000 lines of code, as opposed to wlroots which is more than 4 times smaller than that

[@rjawiygvozd]

i'm literally in Siberia and i had a spider living just outside my window swinging on its web in there the entire summer and i could see it as i'm using my pc There is no escape it was pretty small tho and i kinda liked it

[@conjurermast]

You won't die to a spider bite in Siberia, you just might in Australia, some of them are actually aggressive.

[@bleack8701]

The whole discussion about themeing and light vs dark mode....there are two themes for a reason. Depending on whether or not you have issues with your eyes and what issues you have, it can be impossible to use light or dark themes. For example, with my astigmatism I can't use dark themes. I develop headaches from eyestrain

[@slowjocrow6451]

Light mode is so much better in my office for some reason. Something about the lighting and the screens just makes dark mode terrible for my eyes. It's the first time I've been thankful for Light themes

[@user-xe6sm4jv8f]

THIS! And also dark themes look pretty bad on LCD screens.

[@ditchcomfort]

Light mode all the day 👌🏻

[@mahmoud1737]

Using laptop outdoors in sun i can't see a thing in dark mode and have to use light theme

[@playtester6635]

​@@slowjocrow6451 lighting matters. I used to work in a poorly lit armored bunker and most of us were using dark mode. My home office is well lit and especially in the day time light mode is king.

[@iodreamify]

This was great, felt like a conversation between two long time friends.

[@STONE69_]

It reminded me of that movie the Karate Kid.

[@tommynaugle3572]

Add Rebecca Black OS to the Brodie section of the Linux iceberg

[@tecknogyk]

I honestly don’t know what he’s talking about when it comes to gaming on Linux. I have zero issues, zero, gaming on my Linux desktop. I’m leaning towards this being a pebcak issue. If it runs well on the steam deck it runs well on the desktop.

[@ringo8410]

Oh, cool! Two of my favorite 'Linux guy' KZbinrs! I don't even particularly care about Wayland vs x11; I just think it's cool that Linxu Cast and Brodie are combining their powers.

[@ThatLinuxDude]

and there it is!

[@rightwingsafetysquad9872]

I had a spider sit on the door handle of my car once. I called in sick to work.

[@ruenoak]

I'll wait until Xfce switches to Wayland, then I know it will be ready for use ;)

[@JohnSmith-lc1ml]

Nix users sitting here clenching their fist.

[@edbeckerich3737]

My beloved XFCE is moving to support Wayland and X11, I may be able to continue gaming on X11 til 2025

[@syrefaen]

I wanted to hear Matt rants a little more at the end.. Loved the episode!

[@terminallyonline5296]

2:22 Don't forget the dropbears. Also lol the bit about Nautilus - I use it on Hyprland but as the typeahead version with the open any terminal patch.

[@pdwarnes]

My main issue with Gnome and having a "streamlined" experience with little customization, is when I have to use distros (RHEL) that only ship Gnome. I cannot choose not Gnome, so I would like Gnome to have more options. (Note: in these cases, compiling from source is not an option)

[@gljames24]

I enjoy it because I can add things I want like dash to panel rather than having a bunch of options I will never use from the get-go. I like Cinnamon's customization options over KDE. I'll probably end up moving to Cosmic tho.

[@mskiptr]

Guix supports GNU Hurd as the kernel btw Not only that, but it even builds large swaths of its repository for Hurd on i586. I'm not sure if anyone runs it on real hardware, but you can definitely spawn VM fleets with it.

[@michaelk__]

5:53 Spider Talk Skip 😖

[@BrodieRobertson]

It's always fun to scare people away

[@Burgo361]

There is also the little spiders that nest in trees and parachute down in a weird kind of spider rain, that's something I don't want to deal with again haha

[@conan_kudo]

In re: 1:46:18, this is absolutely a packaging bug if this is the case. Fedora absolutely supports multiple xdg-desktop-portal backends being installed at the same time.

[@TheLinuxCast]

Might have just been at the time too, that's been quite a while ago.

[@mckendrick7672]

​​​@@TheLinuxCastThere was a long time period where the kde portal would break the hyprland portal, so they might have packaged them as being conflicting because of that, and maybe they haven't reenabled it. The conflict should have been fixed by the introduction of the portal config which allows you to granularly control which portal is used for each interface.

[@TheLinuxCast]

The experience I had was when you installed one, it would uninstall the other or fail due to conflict. That was about two years ago.@@mckendrick7672

[@formbi]

Guix is very similar to Nix design-wise, but a lot more user-friendly (and actually has documentation), but it's good to have the nonguix repo 1:20:50 no, I say GNU and window manager

[@muhwyndham]

OMG this episode is full of relatable jokes that both painful and funny! Can't stand the Pipewire rant. Too relatable LOL

[@OraOraOra]

01:38:36 perfectly syncronized brains.

[@JessicaFEREM]

appimage is more like MacOS, where all you need is a .app file and double click to launch, and everything needed from the app is inside the one thing. in fact the .app files is a zip file that you can stick arbitrary files in, like wine bottles.

[@zsh7862]

Can definitely recommend gBar by scorpion26, it is basically only hyprland and the layout is hard to customize. But if you like the default layout of it, you can put your own colorscheme on it and you're golden.

[@conjurermast]

My problem with Sway is that it's the same as an older version of i3 (that lacks some stuff added later), but you cannot use any of the xorg specific tools to interact with clients & there are no replacement tools like on Hyprland.

[@bigpod]

that waybar versioning sounds completly normal, its basically the same as when kernel is 4.19

[@matjer2800]

Since he is using Linux for a long time now, I'm surprise he even said it a problem. In software development all version is like that. The version number is not same like decimal number.

[@matjer2800]

​@Tanmaydeshpande-ne9gcIn terms of software versions, 0.9.24 is greater than 0.9.5. The same applies to Linux kernel versions: 5.19.17 is greater than 5.8.18. Instead of viewing the numbers like normal decimal numbers, you need to see them like IPv4 numbers, where each segment of the number has its own significance. The usual standard is: the first segment is for major releases, the second segment for minor releases, and the third for patches or post fixes. So each segment can have a number from 0 to 99 or even more than 99.

[@bigpod]

@Tanmaydeshpande-ne9gc well 24 is bigger then 5, you need to look at whole number not just forst nukber

[@TheLinuxCast]

I didn't even really think about it that way. IDK why it felt so odd to me.

[@matjer2800]

​@@TheLinuxCast That's why I'm surprised when you said that in the video. Almost all packages on Linux use that versioning standard, including xmonad and the kernel itself. I can't even think of one package off the top of my head that does not use it. There are some variations using a mix of letters or words in each segment, but they still conform to the standard.

[@SilverSeleucid]

Brodie: "well I hope the snow is gone" Us: *Laughs in Midwest&Northeast.... no Brodie, the snow is never gone 😂

[@AnalyticMinded]

And here I always wondered why Matt was never invited to the podcast. Turns out this is his third time on the show! o.O

[@voidmind]

Regarding his problems running games on the Linux Desktop, I have an AMD card and every game I have played on the Steam Deck works just as fine on my Linux desktop (and I have had to change proton versions both on my desktop and the deck). I've seen some reports that Nvidia is great on Linux now, so it might be that this theory has no ground to stand on. One thing's for sure, Valve are paying people to make the whole AMD based stack as good as possible (even the AMD driver, I think). If something doesn't run as well on the proprietary Nvidia driver, it's much less of a concern to them, because the Steam Deck hardware doesn't use Nvidia hardware.

[@Mikeplus14]

I don't use NixOS but do use Nix the package manager/build system daily for work as a programmer, basically as (very) glorified Makefiles. The benefits for me are that I get the exact same development environment -- same LSP, same compiler, same deps, etc. -- no matter what system I'm on, while having no worries whatsoever if I have to develop some projects A and B which both depend on different versions of the same dependency, compiler, or a dependency plus a very specific patch, etc. For the same reasons it's great for deployment too.

[@U1TR4F0RCE]

Shouldn't Ansible be able to do something similar?

[@Mikeplus14]

@@U1TR4F0RCE Not really, no

[@U1TR4F0RCE]

@@Mikeplus14 what are some of the advantages of Nix over Ansible stuff?

[@donaldwilliams6821]

Wayfire is nice also I like that and Hyprland WM

[@bitterseeds]

Someone should tell Matt that the MacOS interface is called a compositor, It's not a new term. ;)

[@thingsiplay]

My 2 favorite Linux KZbinrs! Professor Layton vs. Phoenix Wright

[@marble_wraith]

"Dunno if any of knowledge is transferrable from college for CSS 15 years ago"... You'll be relearning about +60% So i'd just treat all the old knowledge as deprecated and relearn everything.

[@TheLinuxCast]

Yeah, that's what I'm finding out.

[@nichohells]

He's now on Wayland

[@JessicaFEREM]

the PS5 slim doesn't come with a disc drive by default and you have to purchase and slot in the proprietary disc drive. Microsoft has also patented this idea of plugging in an external optical drive, although with the latest talks going on, microsoft may be going out of the video game business

[@RadikAlice]

Even funnier yet, that same drive *requires an internet connection to work* because it connects to a server for verification

[@wertigon]

Matt does not want to hear this, but... We found a huge tarantula outside our house a few years back in Sweden. Apparently it had escaped from it's owner's aquarium. Sweden is a lot further north than MI. Sooo... Not safe anywhere mate :D

[@TheLinuxCast]

That's terrifying, I'm going to get into space tourism and just stay there.

[@owlmostdead9492]

Gnome needs auto tiling baked in, then I’d be fed and happy. Floating window management, is literally the biggest time waster in modern computing.

[@TechOverTea]

There's some stuff in progress

[@maxarendorff6521]

There's like a dozen extensions for that probably.

[@owlmostdead9492]

@@maxarendorff6521 Yeah and all of them suck, forge is the closest but there's bugs everywhere

[@Mikeplus14]

@@owlmostdead9492 Yeah that's my experience. Same for the many attempts at tiling on KWin. I think the core idea of a tiling WM working by reacting to what a floating one is doing, just can't work without jank.

[@owlmostdead9492]

@@Mikeplus14 I don't agree, people just need to start writing good code and stop trying to take jank shortcuts to achieve simple functionality. It will be done, the question is just how much longer is is going to take, since tiling is so obviously the better way to manage UI.

[@kylenorris9585]

Proton doesn't just work for games quite a few programs can be added to steam and run through proton

[@TechOverTea]

Proton is just wine with some game specific tweaks at the end of the day

[@edbeckerich3737]

I'm miffed with Qtile, I can't move floating windows with my mouse!

[@bigpod]

he changes color scheme 4 times a day, i still use default color scheme that came default with ublue bluefin

[@gor.]

Looks like MFing in PoE consumed Brodie just a bit.

[@2disbetter]

Sway is awesome!

[@jamesb2877]

Wayland I will use Wayland when hell freezes over.

[@DashieTM]

prob too late, but ironbar, pretty cool, imo easier than waybar.

[@Harb000]

Australian funnel-web spider enough said 🤣🤣🤣

[@my-dev]

I'm a simple man... if Avengers Assemble, I watch it.

[@kylenorris9585]

I hate Snaps and Flatpacks. If you have multiple users set up you have to install a flatpak for each user say the Brave browser

[@bassnfool2]

sudo flatpak install --system

[@richardlesperance8259]

Ware in Michigan!? I used to live in Marquette and Oscoda! And i am that crazy guy who goes into the woods looking for Big Foot!

[@tylerdean980]

I hope fvwm moves to wayland so i can get NsCDE on wayland

[@edbeckerich3737]

Matt needs Debian, no change!! No more grumpys!!

[@wyfyj]

I wish I could use GNU GUIX on my laptop

[@mskiptr]

Why not? With nonguix added it should work like any other distro

[@wyfyj]

@mskiptr my hardware is too new the support isn't there yet

[@mskiptr]

@@wyfyj Ah, alright. Makes sense It seems that both Nonguix and upstream Guix have 6.7 packaged, but not yet used by default. I guess you could try building the installation ISO yourself. Though at that point you could just as well do the installation on a separate computer (or in a VM, or from another distro) and put that drive in the final machine. Then only the EFI boot entry wold need to be added manually.

[@Tvirus12]

Koala's have Chlamydia?

[@kevinklement2621]

I suspect Nix is useful if you have the need for reproducible environments, or for switching between environments on the same system a lot. If you don't have those use cases, NixOS is nothing but insane overcomplication for no reason. Definitely not for me.

[@jht9242]

f*ck change. All my homies hate change.

[@grobislav]

01:02:10 -- that's not true? fedora still has old pulseaudio available, it's even going to be in fedora 40 repos, i'm pretty sure there's no distro out there that dropped OG pulse support yet, no need to go into more sophisticated distros for that. Also gtk theming for flatpaks works, and worked for years, i remember when i first tried flatpaks in fedora 32 or 31, which was 4-5(?) years ago, my custom gtk themes worked just fine without any tweaking, there's definetely something missing on his system.

[@anonytuser711]

Wayland isn't ready for production machines. -Wayland devs. 'Nuff said.

[@infinitebeast5517]

Gnome is bad lol

[@bleack8701]

The best distro is a boring distro. I want my OS to be boring. That's why I don't understand the idea of a distro hop. Do you ACTUALLY want to reinstall everything every year? Really?

[@guss77]

I don't understand people like Matt that get confused by semantic versioning - 0.9.24 is clearly larger than 0.9.5! It's not a decimal number - when did you ever see a decimal number with more than one dot? If you need to use math to understand "big number larger than small number" then it's a vector - the vector with the larger component is obviously larger than the vector with the smaller component. You can also think about it like paragraph numbering in documents: p0.9.24 is after p0.9.5. no matter how you look at it, it isn't a decimal fraction and 0.9.5 is not equal to 0.9.50.

[@atijohn8135]

I'm also confused, like I'm not sure how would that work with the standard versioning scheme that everyone uses (i.e. major . minor . bugfix), like if you're on version x.y.9 and the next version is compatible with the previous one, then the version should be named x.y.10 not x.(y+1).0

[@guss77]

@@atijohn8135 that's what we call "semantic versioning". Google "semver"

[@bigpod]

i think wayland would have been good quicker IF xorg wasnt just "good enough" so we could wait

[@thecrow3461]

two full blown nerds talking for over 2 hours about linux, doesnt get any better.

[@craneology]

BrodieCam needs a better angle.

[@BrodieRobertson]

I've been playing around with it a bit

[@BrodieRobertson]

If you have any suggestions I'm willing to hear them

[@donkey7921]

@@BrodieRobertson I think facing up the camera angle to center your face a bit more could make it better.