3D Printer Design: CoreXY vs Bedslinger

[@Shayway]

This is a solid take on why Bedslingers are still needed. Love the points you brought up!

[@DiavloPL]

Counter point for the speed prints, for hobbist speed may be very important, as I don't want to leave prints alone in the house I'd like to finish print within 24h, staying at home for a longer time non stop is very difficult, you know shopping, friends, work etc.

[@KanielD]

Curious why more companies don’t use Ender 5 style printers. It seems like a solid middle ground. Easy to repair & higher printing speed

[@ozzybiker1013]

Totally agree I have a sovol sv05 :)

[@jakobhansen1396]

Ultimaker, MakerBot, Markforged? For exactly the reasons you mention

[@williamelewis464]

Because my bed slinger takes up more footprint than my XY in every dimension but one, thats why.

[@ozzybiker1013]

@@williamelewis464 ender 5 type printers are not bedslingers...

[@HairyStuntWaffle]

Tbh there's so many ender 5 core xy mods out there

[@MichaelPetito]

Both, the answer is both. Start with a bed slinger, learn with it, mod it, find its limits. Then later get a corexy printer. Enjoy higher speeds and experiment with new materials for certain prints. Have fun printing with both!

[@YouTube_Nr.1]

That sounds like get a girlfriend, learn with her…find her limits. Get a wife later … have fun with both 😂

[@tomsko863]

I've had a PrusaMini for 3ish years and the experience has been horrible so far. So I've been inclined to get a CoreXY (because they seem more issue free) just so I don't have to spend 3 hours root-causing to 1 hour printing. I rather throw money at the situation and get a working printer for 3 years and then throw it out if it breaks. I understand Nathan's points but that works for someone who can devote more time to the hobby. I want a printer to help with projects around the house and at work. I need it to work now and not fumble around for 3 days.

[@BeefIngot]

I think this is a horrible idea. You'll spend time frustrated learning skills you won't need later that could have been spent on learning things that are actually useful to you. Very little of the issues an ender 3 has will relate to the comparatively fewer issues you'll have with a nicer core xy machine.

[@MichaelPetito]

@@BeefIngot not every bed slinger is an unreliable or frustrating printer experience. I also can't think of a skill you'd learn which isn't transferable in some way, even if simply to appreciate why something is done differently on another printer.

[@BeefIngot]

@@MichaelPetito That last reason is an absolutely terrible reason to waste your money. As for non-transferables., most bed slinger use vrollers, annoying and non transferable. They often use ptfe lined hotends, which are bad for health and not transferable. They take up more room than they should for their print volume and are hard to enclose (whats the transfer?). I mean the beeter question to you, is switching from a bed slinger to a good core xy, what _is_ transferable. Someone buying a Bambulab has no reason to learn about Z offset or the awful v6 nozzle change procedure, or the need to upgrade hotends or vrollers wearing out quickly or fiddly firmware or.... the list goes on and on for things that aren't transferrable.

[@bungle6334]

This video came out at the perfect time. I'm in the market for a new printer after throwing my reprapguru i3 off a balcony. I'm actually trying to decide this exact thing (along with klipper vs marlin, sbc vs arduino, etc). Also, the youtube alg makes it difficult to find true technical evaluations of any product these days. It's usually someone showing stock footage, reading the spec sheet, and making sure you have all the links to BUY BUY BUY. Subbed!

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Oh, I have the links too. But I really hate that fake content. Susbscribe for the real shit!

[@kyle8575]

@@NathanBuildsRobots Hey man, I really like your videos. They seem fair and well balanced. However, with your sponsor it seems you're doing what OP described. With WUXN have you tried their printers? Can you actually attest the quality?

[@worldseriesofghosts3408]

yo did you actually throw the ex printer off of thd balcony? cuz if so, you're a god among us. I have dreamt of shooting my ender 5 s1 many times but I never have had the balls. seriously amazing. I will say however, my Bambu p1s came with a fried filament cutter sensor so my ams is useless right now, but the replacement lobo and flex cables is in the mail set to be here Wednesday - however, all of that being said - This printer is thd greatest printer I have ever used, it practically does not miss, it effing nails it every time, my productivity has gone up liek 3x, personally I'll buy another printer in 3 years (if it breaks down on proprietary parts), the amount of life and happiness I'll save from the lack of stress is an unsurmountable amount. seriously the 5s1 was affecting my life in negative way, the Bambu has been a huge weight off of my brain and chest.

[@bungle6334]

@NathanBuildsRobots I really wanted a Voron, but I learned it's a design, not manufactured and sold. There's kits available, but I'd rather source parts myself and customize it to my exact liking. But I need to print parts for it. So I decided to go with an Ender5-S1 with a Sonic Pad running Klipper, and also its glass enclosure kit so I can control the environment better. 1st print went off without a hitch! I'm really happy with it so far. The only thing I don't like is that it uses a Bowden tube. As you mentioned in a different video, direct drive is the way to go. But at least they aren't forcing me to use their cloud. Edit: it's not really a bowden tube though? It has a direct drive extruder on the print head, and the tube seems to just help guide the filament. Bowden setups have the drive off the print head. The difference seems to be direct drives 'pull' the filament into the head, while bowden 'pushes' the filament to the head.

[@AndrewAHayes]

Not all Core XY printers are hard to access, my Pro 3D V-King 400 has removable panels which makes maintenance a breeze, some are built as open frame printers such as the Voron and Hypercube. You give the impression that Core XY machines are proprietary and that is not the case, its just that your Core XY machines are! the Bamboo Lab proprietary printers are a very new thing in the greater picture of Core XY.

[@Hajtosek]

When it comes to cost. Once you build a comparable in terms of spec and functionality bedslinger (rails, thick bed that is relatively flat, some better electronics) you are not that far off from buying either a Trodoon (comes mostly pre-assembled) or some other cheaper machine.

[@caramelzappa]

Bedslingers definitely have their place. Since I've switched to pretty much ASA or ABS exclusively though, they feel like more trouble than they're worth for me. I just gave one away because it was sitting idle, and my other bedslinger is probably going to get dissassembled for parts. Building a chamber for them entirely seperate from the printer is a PITA, and because of the form factor the chamber needs to be significantly bigger than the printer itself, which also means it takes longer to heat up that bigger volume. The bed moving in Y and the spoolholder often being out to the side often make them take up far more desk space per print area than corexy as well. Unless the bedslinger is designed specifically with enclosing in mind, like the switchwire, they really won't work for me anymore. I do wish we talked more about other motion systems and configurations. Deltas have a lot of unique factors to them, and so do cross gantry printers. I would argue deltas are even simpler than bedslingers to work on. They are more punishing if hte build quality is bad, but if it is good they are really easy to achieve great performance and speed out of with minimal part count. And while they are not very space efficient in Z, in X and Y they are extremely efficient.

[@ulforcemegamon3094]

I would add that the accuracy issues of the deltas are also larguely reduced due to modern software, oh and not being able to have direct drive is a issue Flsun already solved with the V400

[@ilovetechnology8436]

This is a comparison of proprietary CoreXY (like BambuLabs) vs bedslingers based on the modular RepRap principle.

[@YouTube_Nr.1]

„For me it’s just a hobby“ - standing between 20 printers 😅

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

I would be in major trouble if I had to pay for these things😅

[@mattkon1808]

​@@NathanBuildsRobots Hi sorry, what about energy consumption? I wanted a p1s or an A1 but I'm afraid for the energy consumption. Which one uses more?

[@IvanJoel]

Looking majestic surrounded by these 3D printers. You need to build a game of thrones style chair made from all your throw away printers 😁.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

The Aluminum Extrusion Throne

[@KensCounselingCouch]

​@@NathanBuildsRobots@NathanBuildsRobots If you don't don't this by end of year, I'll unsub from the channel. If you do end up doing it, I'll join your KZbin membership or Patreon. _(I won't really unsub, just trying to motivate you to make a throne. It'll be a killer video. Only way it's better is if you have each side of the throne be a somewhat functional 3d printer FOR TEH LULZ)_

[@daanthill4112]

@@KensCounselingCouchI will also join the cause. We need to start a pledge

[@ProjectR3DTeam]

Awesome Video! I completely agree with most of what you said about he sub $1500 CoreXY units. Sadly solving a lot of these issues increases cost, our Daedalus is between 2500-3500 depending on the option but they are made with off-the-shelf parts and parts are easily accessible to repair or replace. Bed slingers are very much a great option for beginners.

[@apfelimkuchen9551]

You just helped me decide what printer to get which I was struggeling with for like a month or so. I think the part in which you talk about idle time of our printers really got me like "wow that is true and so obvious and I have never thought about that" :D Cheers nice video

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Yeah most companies will use the rule of thumb of using machines at 80% capacity. If you pay for a bunch of extra capacity and don't use it, most of the time that is worse than having to contract out extra capacity during periods where you need the extra production.

[@swankymanatee6968]

I started with an Ender 3 model, obsessed over 3d printers for a year, and build myself a Voron 2.4 this summer. A detail I found interesting is the space these things take up. The "footprint" of my ender 3, while less than my 350mm Voron 2.4, is still kind of huge when you compare it to the voron. 220x220 taking up nearly (still less) the same amount of space compared to a 350x350 Voron. Bedslingers are not space efficient if that is a concern.

[@markbreidenbaugh6033]

I pretty much start upgrading or breaking machines myself by upgrading them long before anything wears out. I have a delta and so far it has been my most fool proof.

[@dangerous8333]

That's not smart, but more power to you.

[@Liberty4Ever]

Great concept for a video, brilliantly executed. Thank you for the information, some of which I'd deduced on my own, but some of which should have been obvious to me but wasn't. I'm glad I slowed my roll on the enclosed coreXY machines and decided to get a Klipper bed slinger instead. I look forward to your SV07 Plus review, as well as the inevitable larger format version of the Neptune 4. Barring something better, I'll be getting one of those.

[@OldManJimmy1]

I have been 3d printing since 2016 and my CR-10 has been a rock for me. I did just buy a Bambu X1C and really enjoy the ease of use and accuracy of this printer and welcome the advancements it has brought us. Just to balance the scaled I did also just buy a Creality CR-10 Smart Pro and a CR-10 SE. I have already rooted the CR-10 SE and running Fluid and Mainsail on it as well as trying to get KAMP running but still working on errors with it and have yet to get it working properly. I agree with your assessment that moding and experimenting with the printers is a lot of the joy I get out of the hobby.

[@germanrcbashing245]

Actually the rods and bearings aren’t glued in my k1 but it’s a pressfit

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

That’s not much better. Press fits into soft materials like plastic tend to involve plastic deformation and end up not being super serviceable.

[@germanrcbashing245]

@@NathanBuildsRobots that’s correct but at least you can get it out if you need to

[@mroek]

The resin slinger at the end there, now that's a novelty... 🙂

[@oleurgast730]

On large printers one more argument: Does it fit through doors? A bed-slinger with >500by500 printbed - no problem, as you can tilt it (or maybe loose only a few screws an connectors). But on CoreXY (or any other cubic design)? The outer dimensions are as they are. Try to transport a Jennyprinter 650 (outer dimensions: 95 by 95 by 105 cm³) from one room to anoter. An aspect I did not trought about, the reason I have not assembled it jet (afer 1 1/2 jear owning it). While your comparation is basicly correct, limiting bedslinger to CoreXY is a bit short sighted. Not every cubic designed printer is a CoreXY. There are other designs also - like crossing rods (in my opinion actually the best kinematic on big printers, as you can build it staticly stable instead overconstrained). Or with x-motor on the x-axis, like the original Ender 5 or the Tronxy VEHO series. Esp. the last is as servicable as common bed-slingers. Actually, while the moving mass on an Ender 5-style kinematic is higher than on a coreXY, it's still lower than on a bedslinger, at least if you go above 200by200 bedsize. And actually its the preferable solution for cubic IDEX printers of course. Also do not forget about Deltas, including hanging printers. Actually the last type of printer of course is both hard and easy to transport. Hard, as you have to drill into the ceiling of the room you want to use it. Easy, as the comonents itself are not hard to transport (exept if you tuned your floor heating to 60°C to use it as heated print bed of course ;-) )

[@SirNoviTheChauvi]

Very insightful for a beginner, thank you

[@TMS5100]

@11:11 speed is hugely important. i'll be far more likely to do a large complex 6 hour print on a corexy vs the same print that would be 14 hours on a bedslinger. and the print quality will be better anyway. if a print is going to take too long, i often won't bother to print it at all.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

That is a great point. I try not to run prints longer than 4 hrs. And if you happen to want to print something big that takes 20 hrs, having it print in 8 hrs is a huuuuge difference. I prefer to speed things up by increasing layer thickness and line width, which makes it so even a very slow printer can make large objects super fast.

[@666nacirema666]

I have several corexy printers and a bunch of bedslingers then a couple ender 5 pros and some deltas. Ender 5 for me is the workhorse easy to fix easy to tell whats broken. The bedslingers are also on 24/7 and the corexy machines have been mostly for one offs that I want fast or if the prints are too large for anything else then high temp printing, deltas are all in need of repair other than the cheap little monoprice one. Im about to get a bunch of tiny printers though as a majority of my prints need under 120mm of build space at least the ones that people wanna buy.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Interesting!

[@666nacirema666]

@@NathanBuildsRobots I like how your sponsor made a point to let people know about their lack of data collection.

[@666nacirema666]

call me crazy but having to print through a cloud service seems like a really easy way for them to collect product designs and Ideas for free.

[@Kenword69420]

I was gifted a Creality ender 3 v2 and returned it for a FlashForge Adventure 5M I’ve been in the 3d printing space since 2017 but could never pull the trigger on one I think I made the right choice for an out of the box printer

[@BreakingElegance]

I am pretty sure I can take a K1 or K1 max and replace the control board from BTT and a raspberry pi and make it usable again if the print head gets messed up Model a new one in Fusion 360 and use a canbus break out board from BTT to replace the proprietary crap from Creality. Nothing I mentioned is easy but we can swap out parts if needed but I have built 2 vorons. If I am going to a zombie apocalypse I want to make sure i can print high temp stuff for the outdoor elements not a bunch of warping PLA stuff

[@joshuacolwell]

Very helpful overview for me as a hobbyist considering my next printer.

[@DiavloPL]

I think we are talking about different desert islands, You are talking about the one with spare parts shop :D

[@zakariakhamees]

This video covers all the important points. It is a well made vid. Thanks for your efforts.

[@johnnysun6495]

You sound like you're saying "The ender 3 is the best printer ever, with these 50 upgrades"

[@mcmaco6699]

Good video. I bought the Anet A8plus precisely for these facts. The kit was for 100 Euros. It is a great 3d printer for the next upgrade. I'm not an engineer, so when it comes to speed, I prefer quality printing to speed. Thanks for the great video.

[@Rob-vt1mz]

This has helped me a lot as someone looking for first time purchase. Looking heavily at the neptune 4 (plus) but wont be available on BF I may well have to look for something comparible.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

The most comparable sized printers is probably the sovol SV-07 Plus. It’s a very good printer, similar speed and size. Only problem is it’s kind of ugly 😂

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Aff link for good measure shareasale.com/r.cfm?b=2145980&u=3447554&m=131011&urllink=&afftrack=

[@Robert-qd8kk]

I prioritize function over form - no need for fancy aesthetics for me. I wont be watching it for hours. Just the best hardware quality for my price range matched to my purpose. My focus is on practical engineering tasks around the house and hobbies like woodturning and fish keeping. It's all about need vs want for me. The SV-07 is on my research list 100%.@@NathanBuildsRobots

[@rDigital2A]

Also, my travel printer for work is a Lulzbot Mini V2. You can't kill it, and if you find a way to, you can fix it in minutes.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

I like how those can fold up

[@emil7598]

Excellent overview! What do you think about a thing like Ender5 S1? No heavy bed, no difficult belt trailing, stiff design. Best of both worlds?

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

It'd skip it, at this point there are so many other options that are faster with better print quality. It is relatively moddable, which I appreciate, but it's far from optimal.

[@emil7598]

Thanks a lot, that helps @@NathanBuildsRobots

[@liszcgsedt]

All valid points. Started with a bedslinger (MK4 kit), now I will be looking at a Core1 upgrade. Do I need rocket speed? Not quite, albeit when I get on it and start printing iterations, I grow impatient. Silence is a factor for me too, tho, and over time I will want to try flex filaments. No rush, to, quite happy with what I have.

[@timothyreyes5392]

I assume this is the supposed to be F boi outfit? Vs the nerdy guy who just woke up outfit? 😂

[@zackrussell2244]

Bambu now offers a complete carbon rod gantry as a replacement. It isn't cheap thought at around $90 and probably a mini nightmare to swap out vs a bed slinger. I guess at least once your Bambu rods wear out, you don't have to throw the whole printer away.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

What about the bearings for the Y Axis? 💩 Even in the cases where you can fully repair a corexy printer, like on vorons, etc. It's often significantly more work to do replacements when compared to a bedslinger.

[@personwomanmancameratelevision]

@@NathanBuildsRobots I don't buy that argument. It *MIGHT* be hard so be scared to do it? wut? If there is documentation/video and parts what's the big deal? This isn't casting spells and communing with the deceased. It's screws, bolts and belts.

[@Liberty4Ever]

@@personwomanmancameratelevision - It sounds like someone is emotionally invested in their Bambu Lab. It's inherently more difficult to repair an enclosed and more mechanically complex core XY machine compared to a bed slinger. That's a fact, Jack.

[@Declopse]

​@@Liberty4Everit's really stupid if you can't win an argument and "assume" someone is "emotional invested" since when are facts suppose to make someone "emotional invested" genius?

[@Liberty4Ever]

@@Declopse - Your emotional comment definitely seems to be the result of emotional investment or at least a fervent ideology. Bambu Lab is the internet's newest religion. 🙂

[@joffa5555]

The built up anger at the End. 🤣😆🤣😆

[@R.B_B]

My next purchase wil be A SV07 PLUS. And bild an enclosure and the mods to print TPU, Nylon and CF.

[@KennethScharf]

The answer, I think, is an open frame, but enclosable open source core XY such as Voron. BTW, while you say core xy, what you should mean is non-bed slinger. The Ender 5 series, as well as the Ultimaker printers both look like core xy, but are not. They have independant x and y axis, they don't combine the two. The Ultimaker doesn't move either motor, instead the support rods rotate. I've inserted nuts into prints, instead of using heat sets. There is no reason that a bed slinger can't have as massive a frame as a core xy. It just costs more.

[@BryonGaskin]

This channel needs way more views. This is the most informative overview of the different types of 3d printers.

[@aberodriguez4149]

I am not that tech savvy so the Bed Slinger it is for me. Yiiiiikes !!! I did not see that flying resin printer added special effect. XD Great review btw.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

COREXY confuz me, bedslinger my hero!

[@BeefIngot]

I actually hard disagree. If you aren't savvy you get literally non of the benefits of a bed slinger while getting a lot of potential frustration you don't want to deal with. For you especially just buying a P1S that just prints and checks everything for you is likely the best trade in terms of your money for the worth you get back.

[@aberodriguez4149]

@@BeefIngot You made a good point you used the word " trade " it sounds like a good idea taking the Ender 3 and trading it to acquire the P1S.

[@BeefIngot]

@@aberodriguez4149 I'd take that deal anywhere from anyone offering it. I can't even imagine a way to monkeys paw that

[@PLr1c3r]

I may disagree with your conclusion but I can see the lens you're looking through. I think tinkering is much more niche in terms of the market share of people using 3D printers. For many of us it's a tool not a pet project and just want a reliable outcome which the core XY excels at. I know I can get pretty much the same results with a Mk4 Prusa for eg but would need to build an enclosure to print the materials I would like to use making it even less worthwhile investment. When you want quality and practical materials get the core XY.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

I think the Ankermake, PRUSA, and maybe WUXN series of bedslingers could be more reliable than the basic cheap bedslingers that have earned the whole concept of bedslingers a bad name. But yeah, bambu has similar levels of reliability while also being fast and enclosed. Makes a really compelling overall package

[@uploadsbytom3720]

Have you tried delta printers like the FLSUN SR? If so, what are your thoughts?

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Deltas are super tall and use spherical bearings, which I don't like. But personally, I have never used one.

[@daliasprints9798]

​​@@NathanBuildsRobotsYou can make a delta with U joints and no spherical bearings, but the spherical bearings are in some senses better. They keep pretty much all the forces as direct push/pull without lever effects. As for height, my WIP delta with build height 180-200 (edge vs center) is about the height of an Ender 3, so a little less height efficient but not bad.

[@4dspice]

So the thing about bedslingers is that the design goes all the way back to the Reprap Mendel and has become the de facto form factor for the majority of hobby 3d printing, the earliest corexy 3d printer I know of is the Hypercube released back in 2016 but was seen mostly as gimmick due to the lack of a firmware capable of leveraging the inherent speed advantage of corexy, bambulab really kicked of this new "ready to print" cube form factor, on the hobby side we got Vorons, VzBots, Ratrigs which are pretty complicated builds. What we need at the moment is an ender 3 equivalent in corexy, a simple, easy to maintain non nonsense machine (like, shameless plug, my printer design :p) generally speaking owning corexy printers benefits rapid prototyping the most

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

The flying bear ghost 6 is pretty nice. What is your printer design?

[@4dspice]

@@NathanBuildsRobots very true, that printer is very underrated, needs more shilling My printer is more or less how Rolohaun would have designed a V0 but not really a Rook derivative (tho lots of people think it looks like a Rook) I call it Caracal, my "channel" is all about it maybe I should make some more in depth content about it 🤔

[@WyvernDotRed]

Huh, my main printer used to be a self-built Hypercube, after shortly dabbling with an... Anet A6. I've started rebuilding it with new self-designed parts, but am not making much progress on that currently.

[@dangerous8333]

My SP5 has been easy to maintain. It was only $400 too.

[@librasd8087]

at the end of the day the corexy is one of many motion systems that can be used, i really like the ultimaker one, but no one provide a quality alternative to buying an ultimaker to get that motion system

[@qwertyzxaszc6323]

You make a lot of great points. I am fairly new to 3D printers. For work I started out with resin printers, thinking I always needed to get the best possible results, but because of the mess and finickiness iit was something I started dreading doing. Out of curiosity, I bought two new printers that promised to make it easier for me to get my ideas out. I bought a resin printer and the K1 Max, I quickly fell in love with the K1 Max because I could just design and send it to the printer without any hassle. I could quickly iterate without dreading using the printer., I never even opened my new resin printer and bought a second K1 Max. I read the reviews about the issues and made sure to buy the spare parts people were saying with known issues. Luckily I had bought one of the updated parts and have had no big issues so far. You make great points and if I was just printing for a hobby with the machines idle 95% of the time I would stick with a bed slinger. As it is, the K1 Max makes design and prototype fun again. I can only dream of what the future has in store with this technology in all its different forms. I now own four K1 Maxs and not having issues yet but u know it's only a matter of time.

[@Gixie-R]

I just spent £100 on a out the box but never plugged in Kingroon kp3s, Base model and runs like a dream, Both my Ender 5 plus's are sick, flashed with creality firmware they wont play anymore, Brought Makerbase boards for them but im still trying to get klipper sorted on my Pi. Being a Trucker, Im not so hot with the pc side of things and living out in the sticks theres no one to come help me out. All good fun though, This little kingroons busy printing out my next printers parts, A bigger slinger using one of the Ender 5 plus's for parts.

[@gizmofactory]

I have both a bed slinger and a core xy. Never had a resin. Why do resin printers suck?

[@Jedimjr25]

Hey Nathan! How do bedslinger and Corexy compare when printing tall skinny objects prone to tipping over?

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

That is a case where a corexy might perform better, but in any case, printing tall skinny objects is difficult. Usually the most significant forces put on a part are from toolhead collisions, which can happen on either type of machine

[@sergeantsapient]

I've been wanting to get a coreXY for a while but the more I think about it, the less incentivized I feel to do so. They do print at generally better quality and speed over a bed-slinger but at the same time I'm not wholly concerned about quality or speed. If I want clean and pretty prints I'll use my resin printer. As for speed, Klipper and a few upgrades on my bed-slinger makes it comparable to a coreXY. About the only reason I would want one now is if they're completely enclosed since that's great if I want to print with materials where that's a concern and their footprint is also pretty obvious whereas with bed-slingers I constantly forget the Y-axis needs clearance XD.

[@danijelpobi8206]

You didn't take into consideration machines like the ender 5, ender 6 and other non core xy and non bed slinger machines. Somehow I think you completely missed the comparison here. Maintenence looks like open source vs closed source. Materials is a comparison open printers vs printers with enclosure. Print speed again makes no sense, it's basically a small printer vs big printer, where you could argue that a bowden system is lighter and faster and so on. Moddability is again open source vs closed source. Belt sistem is the only part where you made sense. Structure is where again it makes no sense, just a comparison of stable with good material or not and added stiffness or not. The closed system companies will try and make it stable, but with more material in the printer, the higher the price. Assembly is again not a comparison core xy and bed slingers, just assembly and shipping, it's cheaper to send parts and the user to build them. Asymetry also makes no sense what you said, quality defects is where they don't check but just send parts to user and have the user do the QC. Beginners mostly just want a printer to work out of the box, later they will fiddle if they want to. I just don't agree with the basics of this video and it doesn't look like a simple concludion as it's made to be.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Good read, a but contrarian to my points but I’ll allow it 😁 Bedslingers are inherently easier to maintain due to how parts are spread out and don’t interact/interfere with each other. Same with modding, since you are constrained into a box, it’s harder to just throw random stuff on without having interference issues. Bowden is great for printers under 180mm, and flow rates under 20mm3/s

[@danijelpobi8206]

@NathanBuildsRobots bed slingers look easier to maintain because you don't limit yourself by an enclosure. But you can always put some things on the outside of the enclosure, you don't have to limit yourself for an upgrade to be enclosed. Again I have to bring in an ender 5 as an example, I had no clearence issues with any upgrades on a printer like that, but it's not a bed slinger, even after putting an enclosure on it. What about bowden maintenance? I converted almost all the bowden setups I had to direct drive because bowden printers just had to be maintained much more.

[@DangaRanga]

@@NathanBuildsRobots an argument that could build upon the bedslinger vs coreXY architecture, is the Cartesian vs coreXY architecture. Cartesian machines motion components move in a linear fashion, and despite what people may argue (coming from manufacturing engineering background) linear motion is more accurate and more repeatable than compound motion. It is a known fact in the CNC world, the more "axis" in the cut, the less accurate the part will be due to motion error "stack up". A coreXY machine has to use both "X" & "Y" motors to make a straight linear move (0,90,180,270 deg) vs a cartesian machine which is favored for engineering type parts. I have a highly modded/klipper ender 5+ and 12 ender 3 style machines also running klipper, despite being cheap, with just better 0.9deg steppers and single start Z lead screws and the print accuracy and consistency is much much better than one could expect off an FDM machine. bit long winded, but i see coreXY machines as the cool shiny toys, much like a lifted SEMA truck with no front driveshafts that look pretty and cool. But the reliable workhorses are the old base model pickups missing the fancy bells and whistles.

[@danijelpobi8206]

@@DangaRanga I agree

[@raymondsmith4747]

@danijelpobi8206 Good comment. I also was confused with the bed slinger vs corexy comparison. It should have been fixed bed (or z only) versus bed slinger (y motion). With a fixed bed printer it can still be cartesian or corexy. Nathan did make a valid point with the belt length on the corexy and the fixed bed printers do tend to be top heavy with the exception of the voron with the gantry moving on the z with the bed completely fixed. The big difference though is that you can tune out the top heavy resonance unlike the bed slingers. The bed slingers have a dynamic amount of mass as you print and add weight to the bed. They will never be able to be properly tuned on the y axis.

[@SeanTaffert]

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but... you should really build a Voron as they offer you the best of both worlds.

[@heatherwirgau5758]

Thank you! So helpful!

[@S.A.S.H.]

What about square framed cartesians like the Ender 5 Pro?

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

They are kind of an in-between. Easier to service than corexy, harder to service than bedslingers.

[@RobertGlazier]

Very True. Great info. Thanks.

[@eternalcheesecake]

Thank you for that, very helpful. One thing you didn't touch on that's important for me is that I see that corexy machines like the Bambu's have ringing compensation which makes the prints look cleaner. That's pretty key for me. Are there bedslingers that have this as well?

[@Mr.X3D]

My take on this is that there must be TONS of cheap bedslingers; enders or clones, just sitting in closets (or worse), collecting dust. If you’re a MAKER and not a TINKERER, the goal is not the printer itself, it’s just a tool. And you might not have the technical ability, knowledge or time to keep it running. I have a friend with an ender3 who just gave up when a 24hr print failed for the third time. I don’t think that case is unique in any way. So for a beginner TINKERER, sure, buy a cheap bedslinger and have at it. For a MAKER, get something that works, not necessarily a CoreXY, but something that is reliable. I’ve been through a range of FDM’s and all though I have the technical ability to TINKER, I rather MAKE. Bambu Lab made a massive milestone with the X1C. From a MAKERS perspective. There are of course downsides with a closed eco-system, but there are also very nice upsides. Yes, I also buy Bambu Lab filament, since the ease of use, with rfid detection is to me, just worth it. Am I a Bambu fan boy? Probably, but if so, I’m also a Apple fanboy, since I’m just content with something that works. And works really well. I will never go back to a TINKERER machine. MAKING is everything. 🤓

[@pjpaella]

Great description of tinkerers vs makers. I wish I had the time to tinker, but I don't, so I'm a maker. My CR10S has sat idle for years because print success is maybe 20%. I don't have the time to fiddle with it every time I need output. It's pretty much a paper weight now.

[@uvz6539r]

A problem i keep having is the print not sticking well to the plate on my voxelab aquila bedslinger. Is core xy better here? Or can i better never bedslinger solve this? I have replaced my magnetic sheet some times. But always feel some glue is mandatory... would love to be able to skib this part

[@robertfrazee1106]

What about the things I have heard about the fires with bedslinger cause of the wires moving so much. Or are there ways the help with that?

[@bojac3055]

With high acceleration values, it can be challenging to use bed slingers for printing tall narrow objects or objects that utilize delicate supports. Perhaps this is a subject you might consider looking into Nathan.

[@tomsko863]

Sounds like you might like a Delta instead.

[@ulforcemegamon3094]

If you want to print tall narrow objects consider getting a delta

[@aware2action]

Excellent overview and indepth comparison, prettymuch everything to know, if you have patience! Even learnt a few new tricks ❤👍👍.

[@Gryfang451]

Got a Neptune 4 Pro on the way 'soon'. Also ordered some lube for it since I saw your video on the two. Been wondering if anyone has bothered setting up and ADXL345 on one either with the built in port or via USB, and what was your experience afterwards. Also, besides AliExpress, where do you get nozzles???

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Not sure, the nozzle length is odd. You can just get a different hotend alltogether but stock is good enough imo

[@mab4110]

returned my p1p and got a Neptune 4. I'm so glad i did

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

What are you going to do with the leftover money 😊

[@JakobDam]

Thanks for another great video! I love how much in-depth analysis you deliver, and you have a pleasant voice to listen to. Regarding maintenance: Cartesians being easier to service due to more exposed parts, comes with the issue that dust, debris and plastic particles entering more easily than in more closed off systems. The glue issue however, is very annoying - but to be fair, a rod or ballbearing is not likely to fail, and you don't have to worry if a screw has loosened itself. It's also worth noting that normal 2D-printers have a lot of stuff glued together, and it's not an issue for them even after tens of thousands of printed pages. Being a delta printer owner, I'd have liked to see some love for these too :P Also, it might be worth noting that there's a lot of older H-bots that look like CoreXY, but the way their belts work are not CoreXY but more akin to cartesian, so they're much slower than CoreXY.

[@Liberty4Ever]

I bought five Qidi enclosed printers with dual extruders, several years ago for a small print farm. It was Qidi's first printer. It looked a bit like a core XY machine but it was a rectangular Cartesian machine with the X and Y stages on the top. These were very unreliable machines that used proprietary parts that were no longer available as soon as Qidi's next model released, and they were very difficult to repair.

[@RM-hn6ir]

Ender 5 / SV05, cubic cartesian I find is a good comprise.

[@justapro2730]

What about cube cartesian printers like the sv05 and ender 5 s1? It seems like they the best of both worlds. I am thinking of getting a printer like that. I am waiting for creality's new product launch they announced in hopes they release an ender 5 s1 pro. Are those type of printers still beginner friendly?

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

They have a high center of mass and heavy y gantry, so they shake a lot. But they can be good too.

[@auronotcs5440]

Amen to the resin printer part. I love my K1, but I do a lot of prototyping. I started with an ender 3 though, and it's got tons of mods now.

[@JoseAguiloworkshops]

Just depends on what the end user needs. As you show 2 videos ago, with bed slinger you can add metal or carbon fiber directly over the print. Imo the bed slinger proof to be better for that application. Do I really want to do it like that? Off course not, there are industrial machines that do that and better with precision. Again, it's good to have e choices. Keep up the good work bro!

[@Rick-p7w]

I own them both. I don't wanna choose.

[@heathcliffebird7514]

Love the video. And the reminder that everything is compromises. Thanks

[@dge4560]

I startet out with a folgertech ft-5, 7 years ago. Steep but good learning curve. Good and sturdy design, i regret that i gave it away and now have bedslingers.

[@grathado28]

Oh yeah a voron really hard to upgrade😅

[@wolfie54321]

The affiliate link in your description to WUXN isn't working.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Thank you for pointing that out. I just fixed it 🥇

[@kf4hqf2]

I'm a little concerned you may be confusing people that are new to the hobby by using this terminology. Many of your points are good, but the distinctions you mention aren't directly related to CoreXY versus "bedslinger" motion systems. They are more reflections of the price point, and whether the machine is an open upgrade-able design. As you mention late in the video, there are plenty of open corexy designs, and proprietary bedslinger designs. I think using those terms will create an association in peoples minds where non really exists.

[@BeefIngot]

I'm glad to see other people noticed. I really felt it, while in good faith, ended up being a really apple's to Applebee's comparison.

[@YourLocalRaccoon]

Id love to see you try to do a review of the tronxy veho 600. Ive yet to see a single video on it despite it being out for a long while now.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Tronxy are pretty bad to work with in my experience. They are always offering to send me printers I have no interest in, and when I ask for something interesting like their large format printers they say no.

[@YourLocalRaccoon]

@@NathanBuildsRobots that's also fair

[@dominickbrookes5103]

Great comparison. Cant say i agree with the overall tone "Slinger is the Winner", ive been "printing" for about 8 years, 6 of which was routine frustration and very little output. Then Bambu Labs and all of a sudden i print all the time and it works. I and most other people dont have time to tinker infinately and buy gobs of parts to hack a printer into working. If tinkering is what you want, tear apart a toaster and put it back together, heck do any number of a thousand other activities. But, if you want to make stuff that is cool to you and do it reliably, get a bambu lab printer, the parts, and prints you get out of it are the rule. Not the exception.

[@mariosapostolidis8165]

You said it all my friend! Started with a Creality Ender 6, heavily heavily modified it and then got a P1S and ultimately found peace :) Bed slingers in 2023? Really? If you 've got the extra money, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!

[@qwertyzxaszc6323]

Great point. I feel the same, but for me, the issue was with resin printers. I started dreading the process and they eventually just sat there. They all have their place and time but for pure enjoyment and productivity I love my K1 Max. I will probably get a Bambu Carbon next as well as a bed slinger and as the technology gets better, possibly another resin printer too,

[@tanzhonghui]

I was not ready for that TL;DR conclusion 😂

[@evilmonkey003]

How do you compare your Ankermake M5C to the Elegoo Neptune 4? #NotAShill

[@JoshUC]

Hi Nathan, great video, it was very informative, I want to add something, I saw you throwing printers as if they were just garbage, I haven't been able to purchase a resin printer or Bambulab printer, if you want to get rid of them I will make good use of those, greetings from Costa Rica! keep it up.

[@HairyStuntWaffle]

You say core xy but the issues you raise are just for closed source ones like bamboo labs

[@sUASNews]

Ohhhh what a deliciously interesting video, thanks

[@andymeenanvideos]

Bedslinger for the win...Neptune 4 is fantastic value but now iv heard about a Sovol SV07 PLUS im excited, have you seen the range of Anycubic printers being released tomorrow? looks like a Kobra Max 2 is coming

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Kobra 2 build quality was underwhelming when I bought one on Amazon.

[@bubbleman91]

What was the name of the voron 0 alternative? Rug?

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Rook by rolohaun. There is also one by @4dspice on youtube

[@abo_bandar4375]

Will we See a Nathan bed slinger soon ?

[@TheShorterboy]

not sure what you're buying but my stuff isn't disposable

[@geauxracerx]

Bed slingers are alright, but CoreXY is the superior technology. Too bad manufactures have to try and get all proprietary and fully assembled 👎 Manufactures saw Voron and thought “Ooooo let’s get on this way more expensive over built train and make all them profits” They could have just made CoreXY Ender 5’s with open frames and easily swappable parts, but that’s not the hot new thing. 😂was not prepared for the flying resin printer I love my Saturns. I don’t think resin printers suck, but resin surely does. Too brittle and the not brittle stuff is way too expensive to be justifiable for most projects/customers

[@BeefIngot]

I don't think comparing a voron to a bambu like that is fair at all because it ignores that they actually did massive innovation in ways that actually matter to real people in terms of ease of use. I love reprap and oepns source but you're kidding yourself if you pretend the voron community isn't a bit too Linux for most people's tastes if you get what I mean. Usability isn't a nice to have, it's a major part of people's purchasing decisions. Yea I would love if they were more open and they could be, but some of it, like the more computer case like frame and injection molding is simply necessary given the amount with which they undercut the price of a voron, and that's before we even think about the price of human labour that would be necessary of they actually had humans building out a voron frame. People see the similar shape and knee-jerk want to think its a copy not realizing the engineering necessary to even make such a thing viable at this price point and with these features. I feel like a lot of it is because a Chinese company did it first and so people want to hate it, but it's just legitimately a damn good job done and we should applaud them rather than critique them just because of the government they happen to live under. It's not like they choose to live there, heck they can't even choose their government.

[@mihailmihaylov8024]

what printer is eter elegoo neptune 4 or ender 3 v3

[@eaman11]

Agreed. You can get a bedslinger for as low as 63e if you can debug a refurbished Elegoo Neptune, which is very good for a print farm. Modern firmwares with Linear Advance / pressure control make even a bowden setup not that bad (2-3mm retraction), they also help a lot with vibrations ringing. That means you don't even need double Z motors / synch belts. Also for super fast speeds do considers that only few materials allows that and fast pla is more expensive than the cheap 11e you get in bulk. Even PETg can't be print faster than ~120mm/s usually so you are good with a bedslinger. You can buy 3-5 bedslinger for the prince of a coreXY so you can load up 5 beds of prints and let them roll without having to get there, remove prints and prepare new ones: that and low maintenance is the time saving I value.

[@diegovn]

Dammit! I can't agree more on the "resin 3d printing suck" argument. I used to love the idea of higher resolutions and creating an object out of a liquid. However, I got mine, struggled with cleaning the printed parts, ambient temperature, smell...I sold my resin 3d print after a single successful print and 5 months of ownership. Sold together my cr-10 mini from 2017 and got a new ender 3 v3. I couldn't be more satisfied.

[@dougfleming8327]

Good review of the designs -- I might disagree with some of your assessments -- but I think your arguments are reasonable.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

It’s really an opinion piece. A lot of this is subjective, and if I though about it some more there would be a few categories I’d add, but it’s pretty difficult to cover everything in one videos

[@Nothin2see_]

Do we know when the sv07 plus will be released?

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

No, they said some time in august, but that was a while ago.

[@NoPancakeMixLeft]

would love to hear your thoughts on 4 axis printers!

[@RBallarddesigns]

Fantastic info. Good job.

[@mrwind7556]

great insight, although i thought you were fixating a teensy bit more on the bedslinger until the sponsor was announced, at which point it made sense :P I recommend you keep the topic of the video a little bit different from the sponsor because it takes away a big chunk of authenticity, even if you are being completely unbiased.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

I use bedslingers for 90%+ of my printing. I just print PLA and PETG

[@anthonyburton9154]

What is your favorite bedslinger with a larger build volume?

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

I’m looking my cr-M4, but I got it for free. Made a video about the experience, it has its pros and cons but overall is per nice. It’s a fixer upper like my Ender 3s we’re. The dual linear rails on the Y-axis is suuuuper nice. But if I had to pay for one, I’d go with the Elegoo Neptune 3 Max. Or wait for the Neptune 4 Max. Much better bang for the buck. Slightly less print area and slightly lower build quality for the Y axis,m.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

That’s for huge printers. I’d also check out the SV-07 PLUS IF YOU WANT SOMETHING IN THE 300mm size bracket

[@dyops]

If I wasn't enticed by the AMS, I would have gotten one of the "Plus" bedslingers as my original budget allows for that. I may still get one over a CoreXY, if one of these "Pluses" produce really great prints, better than the P1S or K1 Max. For me I may be better off with a CoreXY as the printer will be in my 9-6pm home office. The enclosure would reduce the sound and smell. The most important reason why I will go with a CoreXY is because I have twin toddlers running around the apartment. At least the prints will be less interrupted by them when they can't see what I'm printing, especially the toys for them. Yes, I can always close the door to the office, but they will always find a way to go inside and touch my stuff. Good thing I have my Roomba charging inside to scare them off. 😂 Also, same reason why I need a fast printer. Kids won't have a chance to interrupt it. BTW, are you the live stream guest of Sovol when they launch the SV07 Plus? 😁 Are you going to publish your review on or before launch day next week?

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

I should publish a video on it... Sooooon

[@WhiffyStatue380]

I don’t think the serviceability aspect is an advantage of bedslingers specifically. CoreXY printers have become hard to service since bambu made their machines closed source and difficult to service, bambu was so popular that the whole industry has been moving towards that. A voron will be very easy to service since it’s all open source. A closed source bed slinger will be almost as difficult to service as a closed source coreXY

[@HP-lr3xv]

Excellent!!

[@ArneSaknussemm1]

What about new deltas like the flsun v400?

[@worshaw]

As someone who has an Ender 3 V2, it’s kinda hard to listen to plugs for the Ender 3 V3 SE and feel like this is good advise. The number of prints that I have made that turned out perfect; which were not test prints, is few. I can maybe count them on one hand. I have tuned and modded and nearly spent as much as I would have if I had bought a Prusa Mk3. While his statement of for the price of one corexy you can have an army of bedslingers, is true. Wait he forgot to mention (for Creality anyway) you might need 3 other printers to print parts to make the others work. By the time I squash one bug in my Ender 3 V2, something else is wrong and I have to take it off line. Much better printers are being made by Sovol or Elegoo, than Creality. And saying take some photos and posting it on Reddit is mixed advice as well. You might get one piece of relevant information for every six statements of “ if you don’t even know how to level a bed”. Followed by various other off topic posts and insults. As much as I’m for repairability, saying that a bedslinger is the only way to go is a poor argument. It’s like saying you should copy a page from a book with a pencil, because you can keep sharpening it. And a pen will run out of ink. And your printer/scanner comb will eventually crap out. There is something to be said for reliability and durability. But at the end of the day, I don’t want spend my time copying a book by hand, when I could just scan and print it. I think the correct conclusion is, you will eventually want both. The corexy to make fast stuff and mods for the bedslinger. And a bedslinger to handle the bigger more complicated projects. Saying one is absolutely better than the others is completely wrong.

[@dangerous8333]

I'm very sorry to tell you this, but the problem is your lack of skills in electronics and mechanics. It's like an unskilled worker blaming his tools for his bad work. It's a pet peeve of mine. You most likely didn't do enough testing before your first upgrade, and didn't do enough subsequent testing between upgrades. Or your testing methods are faulty. Proof it's not the printer is the fact that thousands of other people use that EXACT same printer successfully. Myself included. They even have them in printing farms. I have an X1c and still use my E3V2. You wasted money on upgrades, sorry. You probably listened to KZbinrs and other people that don't know what they're doing, but may seem like they do. The only upgrades you need to have an E3V2 printing just as good as a Prusa mk3 is, all metal hotend, all metal extruder, silicone bed spacers, ABL and jyers firmware. Then learning how to dial it in. I spent less than $150 on all my upgrades. I'm still using the same glass bed that I only clean with ISO and hardly ever watch a first layer. There's a phrase for you did, it's called "throwing money at the problem", when all it takes is a little practice and patience. Edit: By the way, you got some nerve telling people with far more experience than you that they're wrong, when you can't even get an Ender 3 V2 running properly even after spending hundreds of dollars. 🤦

[@worshaw]

@@dangerous8333 this is actually why I pointed out going to Reddit is a lost cause. Thank you for proving my point there. I never claimed to be an expert. But it’s silly to have to spend and extra $150 to make a product function. And it’s people that sling the toxic stuff around that cause many beginners to give up. You have no clue what I’ve done and no idea of my background, but you clearly assume a machine is without fault. I’ve managed a 38 minute benchy on my ender without Klipper and with decent quality for that speed. And no it’s not just my issues. The problem I have at the moment is the cooling fan on the tool head went out. It’s maybe had 200 hours on it, which should be just getting broke in for a fan. And yes it’s a stock fan. Creality just makes cheap stuff and you can find many guys running print farms ditching their Creality products for Prusa and Bambu. All citing poor reliability, poor quality control, and the need of constant maintenance. I’m not the only one.

[@gustavrsh]

​@@worshawWhile I agree with you, Creality is (albeit slowly) getting better. The latest Enders are pretty good from what I've heard. The K1 was their Bambu clone much like the Ender 3 was their i3 clone. They already fixed many issues with the K1 Max, hopefully they'll dial it in with the eventual K2. 3D printers are still in their infancy. Consumer machines do break, unfortunately. People are still experimenting, both hobbyists and manufacturers. Look at all the innovations that got popularized in like 3 years: CAN bus for hotends, strain gauges for leveling, CoreXY, easy to replace nozzles and hotends, CHT nozzles, auxiliary fans, input shaping, pressure advance, high flow hotends, multimaterial, so on and so fourth. These were only available on Vorons and such not too long ago. Now they're a reality. 3D printers will become an appliance eventually, but it's still soon. I give it 5-10 years.

[@worshaw]

@@gustavrsh I agree. I was a bit angry at my ender when I wrote this. It’s not been a terrible printer, but it sure has been a lot more tinkering than I expected.

[@donovan90]

Ever thought about adding a delta printer like FLSUN? And why dont we see more of that type? Seems like a good way for speed snd stability?

[@ulforcemegamon3094]

In a vídeo of tier of best printers he put both the flsun v400 and the super racer in lower tiers because he doesn't like deltas , so is safe to assume this isn't the channel you are looking for if you want to see some deltas. Regarding Deltas not being widespread is due to bad rep mostly , since early deltas struggled alot when it came to sofware since both the software and hardware of that time couldn't calculate well the things due to the kinematics of Deltas , meaning that while faster , they were innacurate , on top of that the build quality of the printer itself is the most important when it comes to deltas , as if they don't have good build quality, you are going to go trough hell and back to have a good print (build quality affects all printers , but it affects deltas the most), Deltas are the hardest printers to calibrate too . I would add that everyone jumped to the train of the coreXY (as it is both faster and precise than bed slingers) leaving Deltas not being more widespread too.