4+ Hour Marathoners Racing in Super Shoes? Are Kinvaras SAFE? HR Monitors for Runners? | Buy or Sell

[@abirdie4me]

I think super shoes for slow runners (like me) are misunderstood. I don't use them because they make me faster, I use them because of comfort and the ability to run every day instead of just 3 times a week. I used plated shoes 100% of my runs last year, and it was the first time in 30+ years of running that I didn't get injured. Also, I have weird feet and most shoes cause a massive burning sensation under the balls of my feet. I tried over 20 pair of shoes last year, and only vaporfly, alphafly, Attreyu Race Model, and Boston 12 don't burn my feet. If they happen to make me faster, great...but that's not why I buy them.

[@chalequin]

Right on

[@Bolt21LA24]

Just curious what is your marathon PR since you consider yourself a slower runner? Just asking to learn myself since I am barely going to attempt my 2nd marathon soon. I use Vaporfly 2s but considering the new version eventually

[@JustinOsmerIV]

I am similar. I am not fast but I have the Endorphin Pros and not for speed as much as I use them to help my form. End of long runs my form looks better than when I use a non-plated shoes. Downside is it took time to get used to. Had a lot of calf and Achillies pain when started wearing but I am also new to running so that may play a part as well.

[@Jazon2901]

Finally someone actually talking about the benifits of these for normal people

[@tonys6237]

I run everyday in Vivobarefoot and my legs feel fresher than in super shoes

[@andrewh7599]

Superblast for me. I'm too slow to benefit from a plated shoe, but the super blast is amazingly light, cushioned, and balanced.

[@Ginguredrunner]

This is a great video. Matt you are by far the most detailed shoe guy/therapist on the web. Keep on keepin man.

[@benstevens1718]

Perfectly happy with a HR monitor on my wrist to help guide me with how my body feels. It doesn't take long to realise when you are running a bit too hard for an easy run.

[@kurtpershing1669]

I really enjoy the “Buy or Sell” podcasts! Please continue doing them!

[@JohnBirtchetSharpe]

fantastic post you guys .very interesting and informative. Thanks

[@giannaguerino1924]

As far as using current non super shoes, it sounds like Andrea and I might have similar mechanics. I love and would definitely use the Hyperion Max and Hyperion Tempo. I also used to love and race in the old Kinvara (the one with the triangles in the outsole). The more current Kinvaras have not worked as well for me because of the width and midsole. Great episode!

[@nortonowitz]

Takumi Sen is so good for me in a 5k. I'd love to try the Cyclone 2 also. My wife has a pair and they seem great.

[@jameswestmoreland9717]

Good decision Andrea on the treadmill. I ran in in windy 20's a few weeks ago and still feeling it in the fingertips but still no dime size black spots on fingers. The Fuel cell TC might work for 4 hrs + marathoners. I ran 15 mile trail race in Kinvara 5.

[@jules5833]

I have the fuel cells tc and I like them a lot and I’m a slow runner…way better than kayano for me! I just wonder if the plate is helping or hurting me? My max distance is 12km but working on longer :/

[@runningguy98]

I think super shoes increase speed in 10k and shorter distances. Over the longer distances, I think comfort is more important. I'll probably run my next marathon in the Propel v4. But frankly I care more about averting chafing, staying cool and carrying gels. I actually think that matters more than the shoes.

[@aravaluska954]

I would race a Marathon in Triumph 21 💯

[@drumrunner72]

Interesting video, thanks for covering it. I was considering running London marathon in my carbon Saucony Endorphin Pro 3’s BUT… only because I’ve heard that carbon plated shoes help with leg fatigue. My actual pace with be 9:15 - 9:30mm looking for a 4:00-4:30 finish. I am concerned that I won’t be moving fast enough for those shoes…

[@LyJoyRuns]

As a runner for over 18 years I’ve ran in hundreds of shoes and the Alpha Fly 1 are the GOAT. Havnt bought the AF 3 yet.

[@jameswestmoreland9717]

Tokyo Olympic marathon moved 500 miles to Sa 32:54 Sapporo. But they had beer.

[@xtamhor]

Andrea had my full confidence once she mentioned Beacon! That was a great shoe by NB.

[@Ben-yw8be]

Superblast for 21/42k. 5k/10k: Hyperspeed 3s. Non-Peba 21/42k: hyperion max

[@viCoN24]

Loved the episode! Regarding Kinvara's review - I believe that the author flexed the shoe in hands only after he had issues after the runs and tried to find a possible root cause. I remember other reviews from that site and there are photos with very loaded midsoles by (assuming) bigger/heavier runner. It might be a situation where a shoe is not able to carry the load, starts to flex in the midfoot and eventually breaks down when it becomes permanently unable to retain its properties in that region. In this situation, I think that both sides might be right. Kinvara might be good shoe but only up to a specific weight/other factor that breaks the shoe. Up to that point, it might be a good shoe for lightweight, neutral runner. I have to agree that the most recent Kinvara is very narrow. I have a normal width feet. As a reference, I tried Endorphin Pro 3 but insole was digging into my feet. In Kinvara it was even narrower and it might have lower volume as it felt like my feet were squeezed from all sides all the time. I didn't have the same issue with previous model. Weird iteration of that shoe family.

[@Runstrong_Chris]

I felt the same thing when trying on the Speed 3. Couldn’t understand it, the insole was digging into the arch on my left foot , so I had to pass up on a really good deal.

[@silvermandavid]

I don't think the question is asked right. My marathon goal time is 4:30. I am running my next marathon in the New Balance SC Elite V3 not because I hope to get a sub-3 hour marathon, but because it is going to help my running economy and save my legs. I wouldn't get an Alpha Fly or a Saucony Endorphin Elite because they would force me to run in an unnaturally way. The 1 - 2% that the NBs will get me over 26.2 miles is significant enough.

[@macfin4862]

Apparently this is almost exactly what the kinvara pro was made for

[@toddboucher3302]

Well, I was thinking something like the rebel three maybe even the Mach 5. I always go back to what could’ve Ryan Holle done in like a vapor fly or something like today’s shoe who knows maybe maybe not much more because his boss marathon is pathetically fast, so who knows fun to talk about but he was the man. No, I don’t race many marathons and mostly a trail runner but still my fastest marathon is in a kinvara 6. And I did a half marathon in the endorphin pro 1, and I had a Achilles pain in the back of my heel and I feel it in the Achilles on doing any run in that shoe which I still have over 10 miles now I know that’s not a top of the end one but truthfully my next goal is just a run, a marathon and five fingers to see how to feels good video and really enjoying the talk

[@runnin3216]

I only started racing in super shoes a couple years ago, but the shoes I wore previously (Razor 3 for marathons, Saucony Type A or Reebok Run Fast Pro for half and under) no longer exist. There really aren't many options that have neither plates nor pebax. I'd probably try the Puma Liberate as I don't like the Brooks Hyperion. I'm in near complete agreement with Andrea on the Alphafly 1 as a forefoot striker. It is definitely the fastest shoe for me at any distance, including the marathon.

[@MatthewAtkinson]

I did a lot of testing with the chest strap vs Apple Watch and it was pretty damn close in all kinds of conditions.

[@gudboyngdisyerto]

i had polar h10 and it was so frustrating. heart rate reading was all over the place. i'm satisfied now with the accuracy of my arm strap hr monitor though i only wear it during hard workouts. easy runs i just use the watch hrm. reason is that the arm band causes chaffing at the side of my chest just under my underarm if i wear it every other day alternating left and right arm.

[@pentachronic]

What kind of distance race ? ASIC Nimbus or Cumulus for Half marathon+.

[@imkeerdni9346]

Is the hoka cielo road the best non-plated shoe for track workouts?

[@stevenshorten6184]

You won't destroy the shoe simply by bending it in the middle. The more flexible your shoe is overall, the better. The less flexible it is lends you to run in a more rigid, casted way.

[@backyard1015]

Bingo. The shoe flexes is good. Your foot needs to control the run/ walk not the shoe. Stiff shoes with plates ruin the mechanics of the foot!

[@backyard1015]

Running without a super shoe. I don't believe in spending $225+ for one shoe! My rotation is the Pegasus 40, NovaBlast 4 and the Mach 4. Nothing over $150. If I had to pick one shoe to race in I would go back to the Pegasus series! Nike has always been great in providing a wider toe box and even wide options for the Pegasus. My first Marathon was in the Nike Pegasus 32. My 5K PR (21:23) was in the Pegasus, My 10K (45:23) was in the Pegasus. It has always been a great trainer that I have used for races. Would I race in it again, sure! Also, running in plated shoes everyday kills the arch and Achilles. Great Job with this topic!!!!

[@sahacking]

"There's a sweet spot for stiffness," she said. 😆

[@jameswestmoreland9717]

Andrea: remember the guy building his. Racing bike out of washing machine parts.

[@fastrax1949]

I've been selling running shoes since 1975 and still at it! I've run 26 marathons. Won 2. 6 under 2.30 (best 2: 25.35) Back in the '80s a racng shoe had to be VERY flexible, fairly low drop and of course VERY light! Many runnerS clocking over 3.30 are buying plated, rocker shoes as they feel they will have a "marginal gain" as faster do. But IMHO it is likely that the slower heel planting runner meets resistance when the forefoot meets the rocker and stffness and it inpacts particularly on the quads,just above the knee;leading to injury. A runner who has aid over $200 on a "supershoe" is not going to shout out that they have injured him/her. BTW certainly in the Uk you cannot walk into a running store and buy a Vaporfly! Nike closed all the accounts of independent stores. So many runners whatever their pace are buying Nike online riskig suitability and hoping they have bought the correct size. How about Topo Cyclone for a shoe that hints of the past?

[@ourchannelofthisandthat]

Hi interesting reply and alot of knowledge - what lightweight, bouncy, cushioned shoe would you recommend to someone running 4:30 marathon? I love the saucony speed but feel it doesn't have enough foam under the forefoot after a long run. Thanks!

[@davidshumway9639]

Do you ever sell running shoes to obese people that will use them for comfortable walking? I'm 400 lbs and an 11.5 4e (subject to brand and style). What shoes might you recommend for me? I want max comfort but they can't unpredictably crush under my weight. Need to be safe. But tired of wearing stiff bricks. I have had Asics gel venture 8 for the last 14 months. I also tried the contend 8 with their amplifoam midsole material and they were safe. Didn't crush.

[@backyard1015]

Check out the Asics NovaBlast 4. I have it in my rotation. I'm using it for a half marathon in 4 weeks. Nice cushioned shoe that can even pick up the pace.

[@backyard1015]

Go to a running store like Fleet Feet. It doesn't matter your weight. You are a human being! Brooks and Asics have great shoes for walking or running. Try on a few pair. Walk around the store. It's about comfort otherwise they will sit in the closet.

[@PeterdeRooij]

I have a skinny wrist, and optical HRM typically turns out to be pretty good at measuring my cadence:-] Don't really look at it, BTW. My coach does.

[@drexydelavega5516]

Training for 2 years in kinvara 13, when I tried Takumi sen 9 I took instant pain under the foot. Runners need to be careful to shoes change

[@SirThomas1212]

"I didn't die, is that a 10?" 😂😂😂

[@alanorcharton8855]

I’ve used polar chest HR for years and recently got the coros arm strap and have to say so far the coros arm strap seem as accurate as the chest strap

[@ShamirDasgupta]

What's with all the hate on wrist-based heart rate measurement? Numerous reviewers including @dcrainmaker regularly tests heart rate accuracy often comparing with chest strap with a very little or no variation in measurement. Do you have any other sources of data?

[@backyard1015]

They don't! I have run in hundreds of races and when I go past a mileage marker, my Garmin beeps just like everyone else's! Plus, heart rate training is only a guide! If you have a cup of coffee, your heart rate goes up 20 beats. If you run by feel, you know how much effort you are putting out!

[@silvermandavid]

I have a Coros arm heart rate monitor. I use it mostly to keep my running below a certain level. Some days running feels effortless, but my bpms are rising above a level I want it to. Other days I feel like I'm making a greater effort, but my heart rate according to my device is still low. The difference in accuracy between the arm strap (optical) and the chest strap is so minimal as not to be significant. I just need to make sure I'm going low and easy on my non-speed runs.

[@crazyjds]

Super shoes = faster recovery for me. I used the adidas AP3 and it work with me. But for none super probably the novablast or heck more v4

[@willwilling4728]

If you wear a HR monitor how do you determine the actual max HR? If i use the typical formula the max HR is way too low.

[@lukepaulson3428]

I guarantee if you use the 220-age formula you will get pretty darn close. If you are some sort of outlier than unfortunately you are gonna have to do some real world pain cave testing (vo2 max) stuff to find out. 😂

[@brettfettbeargaming]

I actually DO race 5K's in the Hyperion Max lol

[@Irv0218]

Adios 8 🙌🏼💯

[@neil1974uk]

I think you can find wrist based that are almost as accurate as a chest strap. I started out with an Apple Watch series 5 and I found that is virtually identical to a chest strap. I also found the same with the a Coros pace 2, I think that it helps that it's a very light watch with a snug fit. My current watch is a Garmin Epix Gen 2 and for that I do need a chest strap as when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong and bad heart rate data will screw up the training and recovery stats.

[@alanshrimpton6787]

I think I agree with decreasing new version shoe frequency. That way we can do away with stupid (sorry guys but your guilty) of 100mile reviews. Seriously, who cares how it's wearing at 100 miles. Most if not all will be still in good nick. I won't reviews if they got to 400 miles or not. I like a shoe that will last and may be get a deal on an older model.

[@johnvore]

Modern Shoe would be: Asics try 15s.

[@fergusdenoon1255]

I think when it comes to carbon plates are faster, it comes down to carbon is the lightest of all the resin cloths, lighter equates to faster for running economy, the foam is what gives the greatest amount of benifit, but take the plate away from some foams and you'll have a sloppy mess of a shoe that wont produce any good results, which equates to the carbon plate makes the shoe faster. If you took the carbon rods and plate out of a primeX, the only metric you could use to imply theres no degridation in speed and performance by removing the carbon fibre plates, would be that it is faster in terms of the time it took to snap an ankle.

[@steveh8758]

Borg scale sounds like a good way to assimilate the data 😉

[@frankjaucot6846]

Adizero Adios pro 3

[@charlyvicencio9020]

Spira shoe

[@hufemeve]

30:18 I'm still in shock on how the Marathon race for both men & women in Tokyo were done under such infernal conditions of 98 degreed F (36.6 degrees Celsius) with 100% humidity.... 🥵🥵

[@John-qv7in]

The clickbait! 😂

[@fayecooper4277]

Superblast

[@ramikhatib6088]

I will be racing with barefoot shoes Xero shoes.

[@TadeuszCantwell]

Which model, I was thinking of the Speedforce since it is the lightest model.

[@lukepaulson3428]

How ridiculous to “sell” on the use of a heartrate monitor for most people. The use of a chest strap, with a dab of conductive gel is the most accurate and useful metric available to every runner. The key should be to inform people on how to interpret the metrics, not telling people don’t bother.

[@JRJapaneserunnerinUK]

Yes they move from Tokyo to Hokkaido where north and cooler place. ( but it was still hot) en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_2020_Summer_Olympics_-_Men%27s_marathon