40k's Grimdark Gloom is Grating, but the T'au Provide Perfect Peace | Alliterated Articulacy™ [cc]

[@ursoanonimo8398]

As for giving my personal take, yeah. I think GW has just been rewriting the game over and over for the sake of profit instead of actually improving it. Especially because as soon as a new edition comes over (9th to 10th) all the previous rulebooks become useless. 0:50 when you mention how Warhammer always has hamfisted "bad endings", it made me think of the ending of Space Marine. Captain Titus fights a bunch of orks, then fights chaos. And instead of being regarded as a war hero after all the work he's done, he gets arrested by the inquisition for "suspicion" of chaos corruption. 2:00 about Cadia, it's not just because the Imperium has millions of worlds. But also because worlds getting blown up or taken by Chaos or aliens has happened before and it will keep happening. But everyone just gives a shit about Cadia because there was a book about it and because Games Workshop wants to. Not to mention that even the Inquisition calls exterminatus on their own planet when they feel like it. 4:40 I also dislike the thing about Chaos existing just to hate on the Imperium. I feel like they don't interact enough with other factions and Chaos vs Imperium conflicts are over-represented. Besides that, I feel like a majority of lore, even when it's done on xenos, gets written from the Imperium's point of view or with the Imperium in mind, instead of letting things exist on their own and interact with the rest of the galaxy. 5:37 Ork's motivations are often simplified to wanting to fight and being comedic relief. But at least Orks are the one faction that portray 40K as being silly and remind everyone that Warhammer isn't meant to be taken seriously. 5:47 Personally, I like Tyranids for their aesthetic. But I also resent how every piece of lore about them is also written from the Imperium's point of view or someone else and the Hive Mind as a character never gets fleshed out.

[@ianbyrne465]

I really agree that the whole “all the stories are in-universe made by the imperium” doesn’t make any damn sense, because why then would there be books about and featuring chaos cultists or necrons, etc. The Imperium of Man would never let that shit last

[@TheBananamonger]

I don’t really want the hive mind to be fleshed out. I like that it’s an unknowable animal presence. It’s simply beyond the ken of mortals, a beast that lives in the realm of Gods.

[@koichidignitythief7429]

Cadia mattered because it was the watch tower against the Eye of Terror

[@eldorado6770]

@ianbyrne465 If that is the propaganda sugar 🍬 coated version, imagine how horrible the real Imperium must be 💀.

[@lizabeth529]

@@eldorado6770 plot twist: the imperium is actually a post-scarcity utopia, gw just pays them off because grimdark sells better

[@nunyabiznes7446]

The Tau were the only reason I started getting into 40k lore to begin with, and it was incredibly disappointing to find out that GW has apparently spent the last decade or two having them written by people that hate their fundamental premise. It makes the setting MORE DARK to have a perspective not accustomed to it. The Tau let throwaway lines like "this cyborg is 10,000 years old or smth" actually have impact, because we can have a Tau go up to one and experience existential horror realizing it's older than his entire civilization and only cares about trying to murder him. The Tau's job is to go out there, do the right thing, and STILL LOSE because 40k isn't a setting that allows them to win, and is a setting that lets them do it over and over again. There's narrative impact in that that I just don't find in the 100% grimdark factions, and every element of the setting is improved by having that around. It's very engaging to have the Tau just... going around interacting with stuff. With different Imperium factions, with Ork hordes, with the concept of the warp, with the ADMECH. It tells us new things about all those elements because the Tau were something new. But no, we can't have nice things or cool battlesuits. We have to make the Tau just another evil faction because everyone threw a tantrum about the setting developing any depth whatsoever. Well JOKES ON YOU games workshop, my headcanon is IMPERVIOUS to your shitty management

[@juliancalero8012]

The Tau is that new player in a Stelaris game that has gone on for *way* too long but is too invested to leave willingly. The question isn't if they'll become jaded due to realising the crazy murder zealot empire that's older than their very race by many magnitudes isn't the worse, it's when

[@lostbutfreesoul]

What saddens me is: The Tau could fill a vital role for any GrimDark Setting - The naïve Goodguy. There has to be someone who keeps trying to do good.... But in a world where everyone else is either too small or evil.

[@moltenboyo2163]

Only halfway through but your point about scale is correct. It’s why I always think of 40K not as one big narrative but more as an awesome sandbox for storytelling, since that fixes the stakes problem. It’s impossible for me to care about a guard planet, there are endless guard. But I VERY MUCH CARE about ibram gaunt and the tanith 1st. There’s only one of each of those guys, and I like those guys, and when they die I get very sad.

[@nikitrannger]

god forbid a girl refuses to die for a rotting corpse and the biggest war machine in the known universe

[@juliancalero8012]

their grimdark is the fact that they're one lone lighthouse of hope in a massive sea of darkness

[@siristhedragon]

In theory, I fucking LOVE the idea of a grim-dark universe where humanity is completely a write-off and the only good guys are alien collectivists in big anime mech suits. That's rad! If I ever got into WH40K, I'd absolutely main Tau, no question.

[@frankenwaifu8092]

This is probably why the Leagues of Votann just fascinates me and are my overall favorite faction despite their lack of lore. The kin are just people who avoid other faction's bullshit and want to improve and develop their society by mining resources and adding valuable information to their collective knowledge. They don't gun down anyone capable of reason at first sight and are even open to trade with them. Hell, I lile them more than the Imperium for simply being nice to robots and treating them as equals.

[@khaaneph7311]

As much as this makes the kin pretty 'good' as far as 40k factions go, they still have a pretty grimdark aspect to them. They are incredibly callous to non-Kin. The exact moment leaving their ally to die becomes more beneficial to them then fighting with them, they will cut their losses and leave. Hell, if its better to wipe out their civilization and steal their resources, they'll straight up do it on the spot. Treaties, alliances and friendly history be damned. The imperium, tau, eldar and even necrons will occasionally show honour in their dealings with other factions. Keeping to deals and honoring agreements. The kin will do no such thing. If the calculations determine that its a loss for the leagues, your friendship is worthless. its not even out of sneering haltered or sadistic intent. Its just cruel calculous.

[@UltraVioletKnight]

Depends on if you prefer space fascism or space neoconservatism

[@Schovelink]

I hear Leagues of Votann, I have to say: For Rock and Stone!

[@tau-5794]

Imperium: Space neofeudalism Chaos: Complete anarchic self-indulgence Eldar: Isolationist, fallen post-scarcity Drukhari: Aristocratic pirate/raider kingdom Necrons: Feuding hierarchical dynasties Tau: Oligarchical collectivist expansionist Votann: Corporate complete technocracy Tyranids: Omnicidal devourers Genestealer Cults: Useful idiot "freedom fighters" Orks: Just havin' a bit of fun

[@shovel662]

I’m gonna disagree with your take on the Imperium. They are fun to root for because we know they used to be “better” (I’ll fight anybody who says Emps’ plan for humanity was a good one), we see that they could be better, so we root for the rare individuals with admirable traits like Gaunt, Cain, or Captain Fething Titus earning a moment of peace even though we know it’s meaningless. Now the Space Marines? Yeah, they’re dumb. But the guard is where it’s at if you want to root for the imperium. The 10,000 year-old super soldier getting turned to paste by an 18 year-old with a krak grenade will never not be funny.

[@tau-5794]

I like the Imperium (and I'm sure many others do too) because it's such an intrinsically human, grounded look into the future. While something like Star Trek might be more hopeful and optimistic it doesn't really make sense: humanity isn't realistically going to be utopian enough for long enough to work together and create a post-scarcity society since it goes against what makes us human; our flaws and faults. The Imperium was designed by the Emperor to be a flawless empire where the species could be safe from the horrors of the galaxy and the warp, but it failed because he didn't bring human nature into account, didn't care about his sons as people, only engineered tools for the greater good, and didn't fulfill humanity's spiritual needs out of a foolish belief that any faith would allow chaos to survive; instead, the Imperial Truth's enforced secularism just made people look for new ways to make sense out of the nonsense that is life, and that drove them to Chaos.

[@purplemilk4453]

I was completely fine with T'au just straight up being the good guys because the horrific, grumdunk part of that is the fact that they will just, never matter at all. It's like if the entire world was on fire but like, Wyoming is still doing ok. I also think it fits the unsubtle nature of the setting to make them UNDENIABLY good. Seeing the T'au suffer nightmarish casualties which are so much more impactful on their smaller scale actually made me feel something instead of just 😂😂😂 le one zillion years of war 😦😝🤣 (which I don't mind btw, its just a cool way to expand the setting which i argue doesnt break the themes!)

[@AtticusKarpenter]

Yeah, their state is just small, and their warp drives are secure from Warp incursions and don't need light of Astronomicon to navigate but they are slow as fuck. They was not exterminated by Imperium because extermination fleet lost in the Warp, so its literally "that small amount of good that exist in Warhammer 40k - are mistake of main faction that failed to destroy it" lol But also it prevents Tau from most powerful faction, as they are only ones who not obliged to get into melee combat by stylish reasons, so they act pretty much as modern army - combined arms combat, heavy usage of drones, infantry suppress enemy from long range by most firepower-capable weapons one can produce massively (assault rifles irl, plasma rifles for Tau, while all other factions treat plasma weapons pretty much like incendiary grenade launcher with some anti-armor capabilities, specialised weapon that need skillful operator. And for Tau its most simple, standart issue weapon). And Tau can mass produce EVERYTHING including heaviest mechs while all other factions (besides Orks and bugs) are but remains of powerful empires of old, and scrape any heavy vehicles in ranks with big difficulties, and losses of some of them are irreversible (until writers pull some archimagus Cawl out of their ass that actually allowed to make and invent things and began mass production of them). But in turn Tau don't have any space magic. So while most futuristic-looking, they actually most in a way grounded faction that close to 21 century armies than to other factions and this is cool because it create interesting contrast

[@itty_224]

I actually find the idea of the Tau mind control pheromones as kind of a neat concept, as pheromones in real life are less of a mind control and more of a potent neurochemical suggestion to do whatever they're telling you. It fits the Tau into 40k without detracting from their core ideals, and could have lead to some interesting story themes such as exploring the dichotomy between freedom and ethics, or asking what it actually means to choose to do the right thing. However, this kind of storytelling is nuanced, and we can't have that in our space game now can we?

[@vurrunna]

Warhammer 40k is a fascinating setting to analyze, because it's such a unique blend of cool ideas and absolute garbage. I think it's most epitomized by tracing its history: 40k started as a satirical sci-fi setting from a small-time British gaming company, and has since then grown into a corporate behemoth meant to appeal to the masses so as to increase profit margins. It leads to such iconic moments as when GW had to tell people that the Space Marines are fascists and bad, despite virtually all of their marketing material depicting them as angelic heroes and super cool. It's especially frustrating because, honestly, there's a lot to love about 40k. Sure, its massive scale means it's hard to have real stakes, but it's not impossible-you just have to focus on the smaller scale, like making us care about a single sector, or planet, or city, or person (a piece of advice every writer should learn). It also has some incredible aesthetic that you can't find elsewhere, and while I think total Grimdark is stupid, the general vibe of Grimdark can certainly allow for some pretty metal moments. What really gets me is that 40k is a setting that teeters on the edge of brilliance, but which you know will never truly make it there. The Eldar are a fascinating faction about the withering remains of an eons dead empire, but their books aren't as profitable so they never do anything. The Tyranids are an existential threat that could truly doom the galaxy, but that would threaten the setting so they can't really endanger it. The Tau are an idealistic society that can enhance the setting by both highlighting how horrible the Imperium is in comparison and showcasing how idealism is doomed in the 41st Millenium, but that doesn't make as many sales so they need to be evil now. There are so many settings that manage to grasp 40k's scale and tone successfully (BattleTech being my favorite example, plus Halo a little bit), but 40k is stuck in a perpetual state of decay: Built up into a massive hobby empire that holds itself afloat by coasting off of old success and innovation, failing to progress itself in any meaningful way. Kind of fitting, really, compared to the Imperium they created.

[@erwinsetyo1061]

The T'au was my second favourite faction in 40K, just behind Orks (especially from Blood Axes). They tried to be different that others because in the lore they are still new faction in-universe, giving a breath of fresh air on the so-called Grimdark.

[@MrZippidydoodahh]

I really like Genestealer Cult for narrative. While the end of their story is likely being eaten or killed, that's sort of everyone in the setting. And I like that the sinister mind control aspect is put alongside the actual regular people who join the faction because they just want things to be better for their planet. A little little fun rebellion. Edit: they are definitely re-creating the game. Usually fixing some stuff and usually hyper nerfing the old strategies.

[@tau-5794]

They're the perfect useful idiots for the Tyranids. Their only real purpose for existence is to cause strife and weaken defenses to make the hive fleets' jobs easier, but the way the cult manipulates them into doing this (instead of the right thing which would be to defend the world they live on from the omnicidal extragalactic superpredator) is to make them think that they're fighting for freedom and equality, that they are the true worshippers of the Emperor and everyone else has fallen to Chaos. It's a sad but reflective look at how otherwise ordinary citizens are turned against their neighbors by controlling higher powers, without them even knowing it.

[@luketfer]

Also, another point of contention, Necrons *use* to be minecraft skeletons with no personality, now that's just your baseline troops, Now the Necron leaders all have personalities. Essentially you're using old pre-5th edition lore for the Necrons, when they got a massive overhaul...which makes sense if you're basing your lore from the Dawn of War games. In fact Necrons have THE most well regarded book in 40k, The Infinite and the Divine, which is essentially about elderly grandpa Statler and Waldorf bickering with each other whilst having adventures and includes one of my favorite bits of "You fool, you bought us box seats to a coup!" "Well the reviews were good..."

[@user-Mr-L-of-York]

Newcrons are objectively worse.

[@thomasgordon7344]

Hmmm yes I liked when GW killed Fantasy removed the Tomb Kings as a faction a well known fan favorite then not long after they did that we started getting the Egyptian styled Necrons again.... A little suspicious huh?

[@vladpw123]

TBH everything good that you said about T`au especially about their xwarriors actually having a real motivation to fight also applies to Eldar.

[@OrmylLP]

Their ALMOST equally shafted too, Eldar just get to hang out for nostalgia and funny elf jokes it seems

[@jungkinoid8706]

It applies even more to the Eldar, honestly. They are full of regret, bitterness, hatred, love, a swirling complex of emotions and motivations but generally all want to destroy Chaos and are surprisingly selfless on a personal level.

[@insanegrenuja5336]

Man I don't want to be "that guy" ... But I see some sings and slight arrows pointing at "god forbid you like to play as a bad guy in the Universe of bad guys with some questional morals"

[@JCOdrjones]

"Ummm, you play as the guys with Nazi-like imagery in a universe full of the worst types of people? Omega yikers! Am i right?!☝️🤓" I'm not even really into 40K, I see a shit ton of people are. And I know some players get really weird about 40K in how they just go "I love playing as the fascist coded guys cause I'm one too!" But to be the type of guy to go "you probably have a Nazi flag in your room because you play the Imperium" is just really lame and reminds me of "You like Darth Vader?! You're supporting evil!" type discourse from eons past.

[@kirbycooper9496]

Where

[@Calhouned]

GW 🤝 Bethesda Serving up the same basic story… forever

[@confusedcabal342]

The tau are my personal favorite faction in Warhammer- their designs are sick and their main philosophy being based around compassion is a genuine breath of fresh air!!

[@playery2684]

In my opinion, I think the appeal of some factions and why people like Warhammer, is because it's so over the top and edgy that it circles back to being charming and cool. The Devs behind Helldivers are Warhammer fans through and through (to the point that they said that they would raise the praise for the monetization if they needed money to buy new units, which simultaneously funny and scary) . Besides of the Starship Troopers inspiration, you can see some of the over the top elements of Warhammer in Helldivers with the space ship sending their troops inside big bullets, and I would be stretching too much to say that the other to factions, besides the bugs, were also inspired by 40k. And some people enjoyed Super earth, despite basically being an Fascist Dictatorship, thanks to how over the top it is, to the point that you can help but love it.

[@tau-5794]

The bugs' primary inspiration is obviously the Arachnids from SST but their naming convention, the Terminids, is obviously taken from the Tyranids. Also I'd classify Super Earth's government as more a satire on democracy, since every citizen gets a vote but the way they do it is by filling out a little quiz with mostly abstract questions, then a big central computer reads all those quizzes and comes to a "democratically chosen" consensus on what should be done. Of course there is no transparency in the system, no way to know how the computer comes to its conclusions, and even questioning the results of the process is "un-democratic" and swiftly punished by the system, because how could anyone find any fault with a decision made by a majority of people?

[@khaaneph7311]

I kinda find the whole take interesting but i find it...i dunno...reductive, and it misses the real core theme of 40k. It isnt that 'everyone is evil harharhar.' Its that the universe itself is cruel. the theme is stagnation and decay. The imperium has many worlds within its borders that are actually quite nice. No slavery or forced labour. Many political and economic freedoms. Good standards of living. The issue is that due to both scale and the issues faced from within and without, a better model cant be universally put in place. The imperium needs its ungodly amounts of grimy hive world industry to fuel its armies with men and munitions. Overlooking its cruelty out of necessity. The horrors of the mechanicus are ignored due to their critical technological and mechanical expertise. Political machinations and technological regression have hampered any kind of major reform. The imperium cant reform itself because it would disrupt the very system it needs to keep itself alive. It has a million worlds and is fighting *everywhere*. Religious dogma has corrupted its soul. The cruel acts of aliens during old night, when humanity was at its knees, has filled their hearts with hatred and scorn. There are so many good people in the setting just trying to get by without being stepped on by the sheer weight of the brutal machine that is the imperium of man. Many space marines are noble dutiful souls that defend civilians and have the best interests of humanity in their heart. But so too are there marines taught to be heartless shitbags, unpunished due to their nature as 'demigods' to the undereducated populace and uncaring administrators worried about not losing one of their precious supersoldiers...or suffering their wrath. the eldar for their part take a very active role in their survival, frequently using their scrying to identify threats to be avoided or dealt with. They are clinging desperately to survival. Orks are funny and i wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment that they dont make for interesting characters. Read any ork book. It'll change your mind. The tau...the tau are not made to be continually retconned to be more evil. No. they are written to be ever more wary and disdainful over the course of their expansion into the stars. the tau are best described as naïve optimists. With every disappointing contact with the cruelty of the 40k universe they become more and more callous. The tale of the tau is less a story of grimdark depression displayed in the imperium. It a tragedy. Its about good people becoming bad because every time they tried to do the nice thing, they are frequently punished for it.

[@mamamiazakaria7481]

completely agree with this

[@Smiley-rp1ju]

well said!

[@drchaoswaffle3624]

For every night Lord theres a salamander, and I hate that people associate Warhammer with facism when I don't feel that's what the intention is

[@hauntorthegiraffebiscuit]

⁠@@drchaoswaffle3624 I mean, the imperium uses a lot of Fascist iconography and ideals. It was there in the first few editions when the Imperium was half hyper Holy Roman Empire and half Europe at the time who were getting cozy with fascism and most of the nasty ideas the imperium exaggerates. It’s there. Thankfully framed as a bad thing, but it is there.

[@drchaoswaffle3624]

@@hauntorthegiraffebiscuit yet when you look at the writing it's well aware of how terrible it is, the best bet for a happy life in Warhammer is on an agriworld far away from the emperiums direct control, and even then it's usually those planets that get invaded or end up being a tomb world.

[@luketfer]

Yeah definitely disagree with the whole "orks don't make interesting characters" I highly suggest Da Big Dakka and Brutal Kunnin', basically any Ork novel written by Mike Brooks who is someone who 'gets' how to write interesting and fun Ork characters.

[@C.D.G.1]

Infinite and the Divine(Necrons) is one of the best Warhammer books it’s story is two old men having a grudge against each other for thousands of years. Reading the Night Lords The Omnibus(Chaos Marines) a story of a hated group of edge lords trying not to die and it has been great so far. I hear that Brutal Kunnin(orks) is also fun.

[@Hail.layla-ym3sh]

In the emporer light we shall conquer the filthy xenos

[@professorkhepri]

GOD the callout to people who arent discomforted by the imperium is SO GOOD, thank you for that it made my day hahahahaha

[@user-Mr-L-of-York]

because it's fiction, if it does make you uncomfortable you're sensitive

[@rashionalism]

For the last couple of years, I've been getting back into 40K and, if I had money, I'd buy myself some Imperial Guard and Orks, run the latter as Blood Axes, cause it's fun. The twist was that if I win the game, I'd give my opponent the chance to play a second, shorter game by taking one “half” of my army (we'd a flip coin). The guy in charge of my local store told me that that sounded cool and in-lore

[@Low_commotion]

I'm split, because while I like that there was a non-grim faction in 40k, I also like them becoming a lesson that even a naively-good ethic like "for the greater good" is more complicated then it first appears, that feels authentic to me. Collectivism isn't synonymous with good any more than individualism is. The Imperium is itself also quite collectivist (10,000 psykers a day), yet this always flies over people's heads because people don't realize fascism is as hyper-collectivist as communism, just with different aesthetic and in-group preferences.

[@tau-5794]

The Imperium is so far from fascist it's not even funny. It's pretty explicitly an extremely decentralized, un-revolutionary feudal theocratic state. "But what about the aesthetics" looks are just that, looks, basing a pretty crappy place to live in on totalitarian 20th century aesthetics is just because that's when the setting was written, it doesn't say anything about the setting itself.

[@Low_commotion]

@@tau-5794 Reactionary is both not the same as revolutionary while being the far end of right-wing (being past conservation towards reversion), and the Imperium is pretty reactionary in their aims. It's also decentralized more by the threat of chaos corruption and FTL mechanics than by principled choice. Besides that some modern-day reactionaries (like Curtis Yarvin and arguably Nick Land) are pretty close to feudalists/monarchists in their thinking!

[@tau-5794]

@Low_commotion No, the decentralization is almost entirely by choice, individual planets are given much, much more freedom in self-governance than, say, individual cities in the US, because the wider Imperium is both unable and uncaring how the people govern themselves as long as they pay their tithe in resources and aren't doing heretical chaosy stuff or outright rebelling. Inquisitors have a lot of centralized authority on paper, but in reality are mostly just detectives able to ask for aid from any of the many other decentralized organizations in the Imperium to help their investigations and fulfil their duty of ensuring the continued security and loyalty of Imperial worlds. And for further discussion, fascism itself is an explicitly revolutionary ideology, not reactionary (unless your definition of reactionary is anything outside of communism) where it intends to create a "new man" and do away with the archaic institutions of the past for the collective good. Basically, just socialism but nationalist instead of internationalist, it values the nation as an entity rather than classes as an identity.

[@MrBones-cu1vi]

7:10 Yo!, cool to see my models getting used in tts! I'm the author of the dawnhail mod. I'm adding rampagers next. Tau I still feel can be pretty 'good'. I feel their tone is more rational over purely being okay, their main point being they arnt idiots rather than saints. Like, tau having mind control auxilia, who then only serve as advisors rather than actually controlling people, who then also never betray the empire because why would they? Its an amazing point of lore because the fear of xenos is totally irrational along with another dozen or so dogma pieces the imperium practices. Its cool in the setting to have a factions super power be common sense, over psychic powers or super weapons, and with that power of rational I can have six crisis pick up angron in a single shooting phase for daring to get in my los. Also ethereal mind control got retconned back out of existence in the 9e codex, so theres no confirmed source of ethereal control and it stays a mystery, which tbh I prefer it as.

[@cassius_scrungoman]

thanks for your tabletop mod! big fan, obviously. :>

[@TheBananamonger]

@@cassius_scrungomando you want significant, non-arbitrary differences between races in a setting or not, make up your mind

[@Ignisrex]

you can actually mix imperial guard units with tyranids though genestealers

[@taru3374]

Honestly I feel like SCP is the best example of grim dark being an actually good part of its existence cuz everything that good happens in the universe feels like a flash in darkness a slight glimp of Hope. And memory of these people in the world are trying to make things better. That's why I love SCP so much it feels like a world of senseless Hope.

[@Johnaii_Steck]

I feel that you're missing the point of the setting by saying there's nobody to root for because they have no motivations. The reason why the Warhammer factions are like this is because all of them are so impossibly ancient and past their prime that they've extinguished every other option except for mindless self-perpetuation. The Eldar are over 60 million years old and their empire had collapsed, they now live only to survive another day, even the Dark Eldar seek only to stave off their souls being slowly consumed. Likewise, the Necrons are so impossibly old, lifeless and scarred by war that it's basically all they've known for millions of years. The Orks have also been around for so long they've managed to devolve from their old intelligent Krork counterparts, their story is one of a weapon without a target. The Tyranids are a hivemind that is intent on consuming everything, that's kinda all you can get from an unknowable hivemind no matter what story you're writing. The Imperium is so bloated, inefficient and dying, that it has forgotten its old purpose, it no longer protects humanity, it uses humanity to fuel itself. Even the recently re-introduced Leagues of Votann are struggling, trying to keep their lifesaving Ancestor Cores online if only to continue their survival. The point of Warhammer 40K's story is to showcase all of these bloated, horrid groups stopping at nothing to keep themselves going past reason or humanity. The exception to that rule are the Tau. They are by FAR the youngest of all these factions, they are still full of life, they are efficient, idealistic and kind. This youth is what makes them unique in the setting, should they be allowed to fester past their rightful end, they will become no better than anyone in this cursed galaxy. And this is not a bug in Warhammer's writing, it's a feature. All of these empires are meant to be unlikable, evil and stagnant, to present that as a negative is, in my opinion, missing the point of the setting as a whole. Overall, this whole video came off to me as very spiteful and dismissive of the setting, and that's disappointing to me. There was potential for good analysis here but the entire video just came down to expressing a dislike for every faction except for the Tau. You've definitely had better ones before. (Also, Leagues of Votann didn't get mentioned in the xenos section again, sad day for the Space Dwarves)

[@A.C_B.]

I enjoy Warhammer because a) some of the factions look cool and b) a lot of the lore is really funny. The entire Horus heresy can be summarised as "demi gods make a pact with space Satan because of daddy issues." And this is my reason why I don't really care about the T'au. They are just not funny enough. They are too functional, too diplomatic, too sensible in scale and technology. But I do agree that riptides and crises suits look pretty cool.

[@Turnil321]

So I take it you like the greenskins then? They are not functional, not diplomatic, not sensible in scale or technology and are funny.

[@clydemarshall8095]

The eye of terror predated Cadia. Cadia was significant because it was the guard world that was supposed to contain whatever came out of the eye. Also the Imperium of Man is not fascistic. It’s a theocratic, feudal oligarchy. Not all forms of totalitarianism are fascism.

[@Distruct10]

when the dictatorial centralized government with a popular all-encompasing figurehead and intense militarism, military economy, xenophobia, secret police (the inquisition), exclusionary racial ideals, traditionalism, nazi iconography and ultranationalism isn't fascism because uuuuuuuuuhhhh they use tithes? come on man, you can have religion and a more feudal/federalized mode of production and property rights within a fascist political framework. there is no gov like the imperium but fascism is 100% the closest analogue we have relating to modern politics.

[@user-Mr-L-of-York]

@@Distruct10 except the imperium isn't centralized the only rules for planets in the imperium are 1: pay taxes. 2: worship the emperor (this isn't even very specific there are many different versions of the emperor but so long as you pray to Big E at the end of the day you good) 3: don't worship the ruinous powers. 4 don't deal with aliens. and that's it planetary governments in the imperium are free to do as they please besides that

[@Distruct10]

@@user-Mr-L-of-York saying the imperium isnt centralized for these reasons is like saying the british monarchy wasn't centralized because it gave land to nobles and expected tithes lmao

[@user-Mr-L-of-York]

@@Distruct10 didn't explain why I'm wrong, so thanks for agreeing

[@Distruct10]

@@user-Mr-L-of-York we aren't in debate club little bro 😭

[@hateraccoon5686]

The Vermintide erasure at the begining of the video cant be tolerated.

[@raymond3384]

Yeah i can see your point, i like xenos especially Eldar and T'au, eldar in early days i just like t'au, goody people that want and willing to help out people but getting shot in the face because the other people doesn't want to, then getting retcon to hell and everyone think eldar just goth and emo elves T'au have good model, and look like gundam so that's a bonus point for me, people said they're still far backward in technology but they can down a titan if they need to cause railgun and everything they have, also using reasonable tactics, unlike one particular faction that will charge you using chainblade and yelling "for the emperor"

[@Dragonseer666]

it would be funny if the Tau actually were trying to do good, but the rest of the galaxy just said 'no'

[@andrewgallagher7690]

I don’t think there should ever be good guy factions in warhammer 40k, but I wish there were more stories about good people. Owl Cat’s Rogue Trader rpg is basically the only example I can think of where you can play as an unapologetically good person, who wants to do good in the world in spite of having absolute power to do anything you want.

[@THECHEESELORD69]

Wahhhggg? No? Daz sadz… diz iz why iz likz da orkss.

[@quixmix]

Love how the squats are so forgotten by games workshop that you also forgot them.

[@Cigerella]

Tourist

[@yarawhatever-sp8io]

Tau armor is just amazingly satifying even in heroic scale. All that cool round metal 😮😮😮

[@GenericUsername890-u3w]

I know this will sound like an advertisement but based on everything youve said about the sort of writing you focus on and such, I would highly recommend you play Roadwarden, seems to fit a lot of the criteria you look for in stories, also just a real good text based game

[@Hail.layla-ym3sh]

The weakness of the tua shall be crushed underneath the might of the emporer

[@dumpsterfriar6732]

TLDR; ''I'm the reason 40k players hate Tau players and I don't actually like 40k''

[@seanh2785]

Really good video! Idk if you have checked it out before, but the rules for warhammer netea feel really good, and are relatively easy to learn.

[@AtticusKarpenter]

Cadia important because it was main citadel between Eye of Terror (previous location of Eldar capital, where sex Cthulhu was born, made hole between Warp and material world and it become main operational base of Chaos) and Earth. And if Earth fall then Astronomicon with it, and its a thing that allow warp travel with any reasonable degree of precision. So if that happen, all gazillion of planets that Imperium have will be in deadly trouble Of course, Imperium can't actually lose because you can't sell new space marine figures if their faction is ceased to exist, but still, counteracting of scale-related factor of inimportantness of everything is done by such infrastructure of galaxy-wide importance. And planets of Imperium are incredibly diverse, locally they have all and any kinds of societal and economical orders, Imperium officials have nowhere enough time to micromanage all of this so most planets just send goods and recruits for (sometimes even not awfully late) protection (but mostly to not be burned by revenge Imperial fleet) and thats it. There wastness of setting play good role, as it allow to write any kind of places for your Warhammer 40k stories and they all have place in big big galactic Imperium, and degree of Imperial official services being involved in local things are regulated by how important this planet or how close to important places. If it far enough Imperium could tolerate any bullshit as long as it isn't Chaos worship or direct prolonged collaboration with alien factions. And bulk of Warhammer 40k stories is how every faction is bad but people is not. People are fighting for each other, not out of being proud citizens of faschist galactic spanning shithole that, nonetheless, secure existence of humankind much better than divided, if better managed, planet-states. And many big shots also geniunely good people that look to improve imperium, its just very hard in the state of constant paranoia because of all magical and biotechnological means that enemies use to corrupt destruct Imperium from within. Motto "in the grim future there is only war" is incredibly stupid as its obscures most precious and interesting part of the setting - everything BUT war. Cultural and social differences between planets and how people work around them, everyday struggle of common people, intrigues between branches of overcomplicated imperial society, this is all much interesting than just wargame plot of "dudes blasting each other". Thats why i consider TTRPG Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader (Chaos Crusade too, as it allows to play same guys but fallen to the Chaos, while two other games of the series centered around space marines and imperial guard so they also much more fight-centered) best thing that ever happened with Warhammer 40k, highlighting all of its strong points. But be wary that it needs some homebrew tweaking, because as it happens with percent-dice systems, chances of success are just too small, even for experts in given task. (or you could just ask dice rolls more sparingly and auto-success simple, non dramatic things)

[@darkagerush3098]

Deadly Kunnin is a novel that made me really fall in love with the orks.

[@Numinon]

I find the nids very relatable because I too have an insatiable hunger. The only difference is that they're into biomass while I'm into lays.

[@RhiannaAtriedes]

The eldar are super cool in my lack of lore knowledge head cannon with their helmets off 🔥

[@Hail.layla-ym3sh]

The tua are still bugs and shall be crushed underneath the might of the grandfather nurgle

[@GenuineGuitar56]

A splint fleet of my armies gave ya hell

[@andresmarrero8666]

At this point I am just waiting for 40k to implode and splinter into a bunch of different directions. At least the Exodite Eldar hasn't been turned into something stupid yet.

[@waterbears9874]

Tau have always been my favorite since I really got into the setting like maybe 8 years ago. I always loved their out of place futuristic look and relative “good guy” standard (though the fact the faction that is basically a slightly better covenant are the closest to a big good guy faction we have besides maybe squats I think is interesting for the setting as well) I will say Thai video is way too harsh on 40k but eh I get it

[@15-HM-A1-L]

I say this in the most respectful way possible when I say I think you miss “the point” of 40k so much it comes off like someone who opened a ketchup packet and got mad when it didn’t taste like mustard. Your expectations are all out of wack for a setting like this. As well it does come off that a lot of your knowledge of the setting is either outdated or is just a very blanket idea of what the factions are. Everything in this world requires a deep dive to truly encapsulate what they are. Above all a faction like the necrons, you say they are just a faction of robots that want to kill anything and everything but that could not be further from the truth as well necrons like the flayed ones are seen in as a tragedy by other necrons and the dynamic of the flayer virus that turns them into flayed ones is genuinely horrifying and entire families and dynasties of Necron watching their friends and family descend into senility and madness is just fucking sad. There are destroyer cults sure but they are just a small group compared to the wider dynasties with none of those being the same either. Some will indeed just kill everything to conquer a planet but others will just seize a planet and may just claim its alien populous as their serfs, not great but it could be worse. Necrons like Trazyn the infinite have human servants that genuinely like him because he treats them well and are loyal to him. He shows care for other races and despite his shenanigans even bothered to ally himself to assist the imperium in the fall of cadia. I’d recommend the necron book series Twice Dead King if you would like a great understanding of their tragedy and what it is they exist with in just their everyday. Also with the imperium thing people can just like the bad guys. Nobody thinks that the wider imperium is “the good guy” but people like them for their aesthetic and the characters within it rather than the faction as a whole. The same reason that people like the clones in Star Wars. Not all of them are good and many of them did horrible things in the name of a republic that forced them into existence for nothing more than the sake of self sacrifice for a entity that doesn’t care about them in the slightest. We like the characters even though we know it won’t change anything. No amount of good clone characters could ever truly change anything but we see their humanity with an inhumane galaxy with little reprieve. People often forget the separatist alliance had many planets that pretty good reason to be pissed at the republic and the republic was not above committing war crimes on par with the separatists, even enabling terrorism within separatist worlds. But 40k is that stagnant ever flowing disdain incarnate. It is the absence of progress on a scale purposefully made to crush anything that challenges the status quo. People don’t like 40k for the sake of the story on a grand scale. People like 40k to see how individuals find the strength to power through it, even if not of it matters. And so like I said I feel you at best miss the point of 40k, at worst it’s just not for you and what you personally like and value out of a setting. But it is for us and we like this over the top edgy broken piece of shit for what it is. It’s 40k and for me at least thats enough.

[@TheRealOfficialAmazingAdam]

In my lore crafting cast for what if I was idfa man the tau go through really dark stuff , and start eating people after getting decimated by the mechanicus from finding dark age of technology tech.

[@teecee1827]

I think the definitely-not-dwarf (Leagues of Votahn) kinda fill the "I can root for them" spot.

[@izauraschmidt2756]

Except for the fact that they strip-mine inhabited worlds for resources lmao😂

[@teecee1827]

@@izauraschmidt2756 that's quite tame in comparison to others.

[@wingnoot048]

​​@@teecee1827There's also the straight up slaughtering of potential allies if it's easier for them to deal with. The sub-faction being at each others throats in the name of profit. Cloning rather than having families because their A.I gods deem it "unnecessary" to progress. Also the robot kin being chaos-corrupted at the drop of a hat against Vashtorr and his minions. The Votann are quickly catching up to the rest of the galaxy in terms of "yeesh, that's grim" potential.

[@tau-5794]

At least they give the worlds a heads-up before hand, and hey if they don't evacuate then that's their own fault, shoulda read the notice.

[@benjamincuevas9627]

I'm a ork fan but I'll admit the idea of orks joining the Tau just to MacGyver new weapons out of Tau tech sounds like a fun concept.😂

[@eldorado6770]

08:32 Yeah, collectevism was tried many times before and it always sucked (🇨🇳 🇻🇳🇨🇺🇰🇵).

[@LtPulsar]

Honestly, in my opinion, the great part of 40K is that whilst on the surface all factions seem terrible, they do actually all have the capability for good, bar the 'nids. Nids are hungry. The most altruistic they get is eating something that was going to kill you. But every faction has wiggle room to not be complete asshats. The imperium has occasionally had truces with the Necrons, they've worked with the Eldar and vice-versa, and fringe planets often engage in open commerce with the T'au. The Greenskins can occasionally be told that "hey, that guy over there said your big mek sucks, go knock his teeth out" and it sometimes works. And even Chaos as a force, whilst often a boring reactionary anti-imperial edge-fest, can also be practiced as a religion that doesn't kill everyone and ruin everything. It frequently does, but it doesn't have to, because Chaos isn't inherently evil, it's evil because the psychic gestalt of the masses is full of negative emotion. Ultimately, GW is allergic to improving the state of the 40K Universe, but I would actually like to see some stories about the better parts of factions actually making a difference in the universe.

[@tau-5794]

My favorite bit of non-evil chaos is when Ka'bandha comes in with a massive incursion of Khorne daemons and just wipes out the entire Leviathan hive fleet attacking the Blood Angels, because Khorne still has a vested interest in turning the vampire marines into worshipping him and won't allow an upstart faction to kill them before that can happen.

[@memento_mori_dori]

I see somebody missed the 1st of april mark by 19 days

[@spartanwar1185]

2:35 i mean this in only the most lighthearted way but _Okay psychopath_ Lmao Also...Am i the only one who notices how interesting of a situation the WH40K fandom is with the Tau? Instead of all factions aiming for a moral good and chastising those who choose evil It's the reverse Imagine if somebody wrote a universe with that premise...

[@crodolog4134]

While tau are my favourite faction, Necrons I think have the most character (thought still not enough) with books like the infinite and the Devine making showing how lovably self defeating they are. Also previous editions allowed for allying in 7th it was basically completely free form

[@alexcrellin4555]

Excellent video! Personally I love the 'nids for the same reason that I think the White Walkers in asoiaf are (were?) cool - I fuck with factions that are forces of nature, especially when the other factions are too focused on their own short term gains/goals/squabbling to face the real existential threat

[@nitesy381]

Nothing shouts grimdark more than something good being beaten to the ground. Case in point Lamenters and T'au.

[@The_Remembering_Person]

7:51 so true

[@eldorado6770]

05:10 💀 Depends on which Overlord you want to talk about. Not all Necrons are slow in combat. The Nephrekh Dynasty Necrons can literally turn to energy and fight at light speed ⚡️. The Silent King 🤫👑 and Trazyn ❤️ are definitely open minded to the idea of coexisting and collaborating with other species (even though they see themselves as superior). Vitokh simply wants to enslave other species and not exterminatus them.

[@tau-5794]

Trazyn if it means he can expand his collection, Silent King definitely not. He's the one building the relay that's supposed to wipe out all sentient life in the galaxy after all, he's not a good person in the slightest and he is the one who damned his entire race to become soulless robotic corpses.

[@TheAirborneKite]

As a definite tourist, I think what appeals to me about the 40k setting is that it's a moral universe different from our own. It straight up tells you that your moral instincts don't work here: the universe wants to kill you, so you had better kill it first. The T'au (though I think they're the most interesting faction) kind of undermine that. I don't think they need to be more evil, but maybe they should be portrayed more as naïve youths. If they're going to survive in this universe, they need to learn to strike first.

[@blabbobabboo5218]

sorry to busy attacking the local denim factory (we werent mentioned in yet another 40k summary). Genestealer cults are BASED and have the POTENTIAL for some COOL ASF stories AROUND them and *even* about them. most SLEPT on faction.

[@wastucar8127]

The T’au racism has definitely been turned down at least in recent books where the enemy in Shadowsun was Surestrike, the racist fourth sphere expansion commander.

[@Thready_Carnival]

You should check out battletech tech, the setting can be quite grimdark but in a much more realistic way with an actually usable scale. Plus giant robots are cool af

[@nicolasgomez6637]

Can you make a video exploring Warframe after getting to helldivers?

[@greatmess32]

Opinions really are like assholes

[@user-Mr-L-of-York]

Why the hell would you play a grimdark game if ya hate the grimdark.

[@tau-5794]

Tourism, why else? It's new and popular and if he can't find a way to enjoy it then it's the setting's fault and it should be changed for him specifically.

[@user-Mr-L-of-York]

@@tau-5794 that’s less tourists mentally and more people who believe their personal preferences are objective rather than subjective. (Which this guy undeniably is) I would recommend the dude who made this video to look into another setting, not only for people who actually enjoy grimdark like me, but also for him as he’s clearly dissatisfied with 40k and would enjoy something else far better.

[@tau-5794]

@Kingedwardiii2003 Suppose so. But we stayed because we liked what we found and wanted more of it, he's trying to stay because he doesn't like what is there now and wants it to be different.

[@Ultrox007]

I too enjoy Tau, but not because I hate grimdark. I just like advanced technology and ranged warfare.

[@manu987nc7]

If it wasn't for the salamander I'll choose the T'au

[@Chonkulease]

Grimdark is exhausting... Well maybe the setting with the tagline "In the Grimdark future of the 41st Millennium there is only war" isn't for you. Or at least you could ask the community to point you to less grim media from the grimdark futre? Like; Brutal Kunnin, The Infinite and the Divine, Bloodlines, Double Eagle, Blackstone fortress, gorkamorka or tts. Probably a better approach than dipping your toe in then making a 10 minute video about why you don't like the setting. Although b***hing about how GW F Bombed your faction's lore does make you an official member of the 40k fandom. P.S. Also people hated Tau because they didn't like being tabled turn 1 if they didn't go first, not because they were the good guys.

[@henryheavy8044]

Have you tried Battletech? You know, a much better written setting and affordable game system than GW’s usual Grimderp shenanigans that you edgy lots that’ll just buy every damn plastic crack with increasing price tags from Gw ?

[@Chonkulease]

@@henryheavy8044 Battle-tech post wiz kids is pretty sic.

[@iliahgranovsky3400]

I supppose its a matter of how you view 40k. Personally i genuinely think the lore is the least important bit. Far behind the minis and game. Best treated as a place with a lot of warbuilding to do your own thing in. And bring in the occasional mamed charachter who there are too many off. So things like charachters. Motivations. Etc. Just cease being very important. Which is the best way to.enjoy 40k imo

[@tau-5794]

Imo the importance (and my personal interest) goes from: 1. Lore 2. Miniatures 3. Game The game itself is bloated, expensive, rules-dense, takes eons to play, and just looks unfun. It's also the least concrete and most constantly changing, with new editions every few years, new codexes every few months, slight rebalances every few weeks. At least with models the same feel of them mostly stays the same with some updates here and there to kits that are old enough to drink, and outside of blatant retcons (which are rare) the lore of the setting is consistent for decent stretches of time, everything makes internally consistent sense, though it is obvious when a book release is tied to a new model or range release.

[@stangerr0267]

I feel like saying the imperium has nazi flags is a bit much because lots of nations throughout history have used eagles and birds in iconography

[@tau-5794]

I quite like the Imperial Aquila because of its details and the explanation behind them. The two heads represent the past and future, the right looking to the past is blind and the left looking to the future is open. The wings are spread out to encompass all of humanity no matter how spread out it is among the galaxy. And the talons are different, one more angular and blocky symbolizing the Imperium's alliance with the Mechanicus and the mutually self-sustaining relationship that allows them to continue existing. The red background is just a generally common vibrant color representing a myriad of things from blood, to action, to the collective, and many more, while the golden eagle is regal and glorious, shining and untainted by the darkness of the universe.

[@jungkinoid8706]

The Imperium is obviously based far more off the Roman empire than any other and the aquila is no exception

[@TheGamegurusChannel]

It finally happened, I don't agree with you on something. Space Marines do look awesome and I'm sorry you have bad taste. Dreadnoughts look badass, Terminators are fantastic. Gravis plate looks baller, my beloved beetle boys, jump packs are snazzy. Good video regardless though

[@richardmcgowan1651]

Thinking Tau are not grimdark.... lol.

[@rhyan0186]

I like the Orks cause they don’t care if it’s grim dark they are having the time of their lives

[@jaydentaylor7242]

bro you're just a weeb calm down That's why you like the Tau it doesn't even sound like you like 40K

[@patriotleprecon4857]

what's the game in the background? apart from DOW

[@devnull1200]

I love the T'au precisely due to how they contrast with most of the setting. With that said: dude, why are you calling everyone a nazi? Let people enjoy their WW1 inspired minis and space marines

[@merica6502]

FIGHTIN IS ONLY HALF OF WHAT WE DO, WE ALSO WIN

[@AquaticIdealist]

The 6th edition allies matrix was a neat way to spice up the game lore wise. Each faction started seeing others as potentially friendly at times; even if they were labeled as Desperate Allies, at least there was the acknowledgement along the lines of "your kind are horrific abominations but at least you understand the concept of not shooting me when we have a mutual threat!" Not to mention the Allies of Convenience and Tau/Eldar Battle Brothers rating Yes people abused that on tabletop and from a gameplay perspective I do think a hard point cap was required for the Allies thing to work, but lore wise it was a sign that the setting wasn't just pure hatred all the time. But nope GW didn't allow for any change whatsoever and the status quo of only war won out. Oh no.... Change... Well the Great Enemy can't be reasoned with and any sane Craftworlder would deal with Tzeentchian scum!... But I thought Eldar finally having people skills with humans and Tau was a step in the right direction. Alas

[@cantinhodocafe4087]

Man, it sure is refreshing to see some well though out opposition! Your points really bring in a different perspective that I (Long time fan of the franchise) have never though of and actually agree on many fronts! Even if I believe many of your gripes come from the general view of a faction that has been poisoned by the public perception and not the actually interesting fragments that make the whole, the many exceptions (And actually good media representation) are often the more likable aspects of the setting that tend to be overlooked. My favorite moments of the setting have always been the smaller ones, about the characters, about minor events that in the grand scale are so meaningless but hold such singular depth to it's characters that it's just completely endearing. I hope you don't get bummed out by the totally expected backlash, because it genuinely is such a good video, cheers luv

[@patchpatch4008]

They really are just rewriting the rules every time. As much as I loved Stellaris, I loved it because of the narrative in my brain rather than what was being played out.

[@kamiwriterleonardo6345]

While I get the argument of why the Imperium is the way it is, I still prefer the T'au... And the Tyranids. The T'au themselves have plenty of stakes, since their empire is tiny and has just a couple hundred worlds. I think they should have a bit more Chinese-looking details on them, but otherwise I love their SciFi aesthetic. I even liked the old Broadsides (except the Missile launcher fists. Those were kinda dumb). The Tyranids... I'm just a sucker for SciFi Hivemind Bug monsters. I love the Zerg, I love the Flood, I love the Necromorphs, and I love the Tyranids. On the other hand... I HATE CHAOS. CHAOS IS JUST EDGY FOR THE SAKE OF EDGY. Except Tzeentch. He's just an asshole and I love that.

[@MinecraftKarol2005]

Bro has the Xcom sweater

[@TheBrickMasterB]

I mean, if we expect subtlety from every work of media we'd likely just end up with works that just pretend to be what they're not. Warhammer's entire gimmick is being over-the-top and miserable. Nothing in this franchise is meant to be subtle. It's not even meant to have *that* much in the way of high-concept artsiness. All you need to do is look at how many joke names there are and it becomes pretty obvious.

[@CT--ox2iu]

This, read my first warhammer novel (Steel Tread) and really enjoyed it, standalone story about a guard tanker crew. Perhaps the battle they fought in is pointless but the story was well told and thats all that matters to me

[@cassius_scrungoman]

i didn't say I want it to be more subtle, just less hamfisted. the cramming of edginess into everything is the exhausting part, not the over the top nature.

[@starcraft2own]

Having subtlety isn't the same as not saying anything about anything. You can have a story with a very clear main theme but have subtle underthemes. This is something Warhammer doesn't have in the slightest. Subtlety is the act of telling two stories in one. And saying the gimmick is bad storytelling doesn't quite resonate with me. Warhammer has the level of hamfisted nature where i'm honestly surprised the characters don't scream out their attacks, it would fit right into the setting.

[@cassius_scrungoman]

@@thekrampuselbananoquevivee9947 what the fuck is this horseshit take im allowed to call writing shitty i like Warhammer a lot and enjoy media from it I don't give a rats ass about the people who came into the hobby before me don't be a gatekeeping elitist

[@KerncBurns]

⁠@@cassius_scrungomanit’s not hamfisted. It logic extrapolation of their society. They’re Confucian space communists with all the flaws that come with that. It feels like you just don’t like what makes 40k special. That’s fine, but fined a franchise that fits your wants instead of complaining about what makes 40k special

[@Nightmare704RY]

idc man, any society with a cast system can't be 100% good, the Tau always had that in their lore, the five cast system was always a thing. Also, I'm not alone has a fan of the 40K setting in believing that it's not ment to be taken seriusly, the imperium is not meant to be look has an heroic faction, eldar believe so much on thier own importance than hare willing to let thousands of other sentient being die so a couple of them would live without thinking for a second on the moral ramification of this choice... AND read the infinite and the divine and tell me again, while looking me in the eyes the necrons don't have character!

[@SuperBoyboys]

To me, the Imperium reflects ancient and historic human behaviours, and so their situation is sympathetic and tragic. It is a civilization falling victim to historical cycles and crumbling asabiyyah. It is easy to judge the authoritarian state of the Imperium as we are 21st Century enlightened liberal people, just like it is easy for us to criticize ancient Rome or China. What I think is far more interesting and saddening is recognizing that their situation could not feasibly be improved given their historical conditions. Authoritarianism is a necessity for the Imperium because it is fighting corruptive and subversive forces, and anything less would mean destruction. That doesn't justify it, but it contextualizes it as something that isn't done simply as cruelty. As it comes to the general thematics of grimdarkness and what it contributes to a narrative, I find that a grimdark backdrop serves to accentuate the power of virtue. That is, because victory is either impossible or pointless, the focus can be left on the heroism and virtue of the individual characters. The Fall of Cadia is emotionally moving, not because Cadia is an "important planet", but because the Imperial Guardsmen who fought on that planet demonstrated extraordinary courage. Or when a Kaskrin draws a combat knife to fight a daemonhost, when you and I both know that course of action is surely suicide, the point is that he is brave enough to confront evil no matter how disadvantaged he is, and the price he will pay. That is where I find meaning in the meaningless world, where there is only war. The T'au have exceptional potential to contribute to the setting in their own way. Many others have mentioned that their good guy thematic fills them precisely in the role of being the naive optimists. The good guys who lose, because they don't get how much the world sucks. I would prefer this role for them, than for them just to be secretly mind controllers. I also just love their designs. And that's why Imperial Guard is my favourite faction. Well, that, and I am always rooting for regular army dudes to defeat the supersoldiers, aliens or demons. Because they deserve it.

[@fumarc4501]

I like Tau. The old Broadside is superior to the current model. I’m hoping to kitbash one someday. I don’t play the tabletop, but I collect and like to create what I like or there isn’t a model for anymore/yet.

[@Kyroro97]

Chaos not having motivations or compelling characters is just flat-out not true. We have primarcs with complex motivations and even those who don't even allege themselves to a chaos god (like the alpha legion) and just defy the emperor's vision. Chaos space marines are arguably more interesting than loyalist ones.

[@silver1340]

Just remember: Everything is canon, but not everything is true! If you don't wish for Tau to be grimdork, then just write your own headcanon story. I know this doesn't work when some official writer puts their boot down, saying "my story is 100% canon" with GW enforcing it, but otherwise you should be good to go.

[@TheZamaron]

For me as a new fan what’s great about 40K Is that it IS grimdark. But the enemies are mostly so fucked up that even as bad as the Imperium is and evil, it’s a necessity for Humanity’s survival, this is a galaxy so fucked up that Liberalism would get Humanity killed, so a Nazi like regime makes perfect sense for Humanity’s survival. Yet we still do get moments of good honest people, heroic last stands, and belief in a better future if the grim darkness can be beaten, the Ultramarine’s Primarch Gill wants to drastically change the Imperium to be better, but he knows that will have to wait till the current threats are crushed or diminished. You do also still get comedic ridiculous stuff like the Orks with how over the top the setting is.

[@midnightflare9879]

I started playing sisters, because I liked the gothic style, and they were the ones who went the hardest with it (my second pick will be Grey Knights, as soon as they update the models). But I had the exact same issues with the narrative. So I just said screw it, and make my little faction occupy a corner of the galaxy, where they have to rely on their own. No more unlimited resources coming from other parts of the galaxy. This means every loss counts, which means they need to be careful not to waste human lives, which means they are open to diplomacy, new ideas, use tactics that involve less meat grinders, and actively try and make their society a better place, because happier lives means less people turning to chaos. They are still grimdark though. Grimdark in a sense that they feel the pain much harder when they lose, and their enemies are still the same as everyone else's. I also put them right next to the T'au, because it's an interesting rivalry between their faction and the Greater Good spreading blueberries.

[@little_isalina]

To be fair even the retconned more sinister T'au empire doesn't feel particularly more evil than any modern neoliberal state in the real world.

[@Jleot]

Like a few people here. I got into 40k because of tau. And just over the years they've become worse and more imperium of man like and i just cant stand to see it. They dont need to be all goody goody but they can be better than they are

[@dorianlain1372]

Does this secondary even paint miniatures? And you should know that one of the main reasons they were hated on release was due to their playstyle.