40k Stories - Legions: The Dark Angels

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

I love to hear about the 1st, dealing within the byzantine secrecy that is their history, you have done a great job. Especially with the time skips, that look to be like plot hole patches, it is really goofy how convoluted the time line gets. I might suggest that there are a couple of things that you might represent differently. In several of the books, the Lion talks about his familiarity with the Nephilim, the Watchers in the Dark, and some of the demonic powers, as well as hunting them with his wits and his bare hands. He was aware of his father's coming and welcomed him immediately. The Rangan Xenocide was a big enough invasion to threaten taking the entire Galactic North, it was a huge war that was going poorly until the 1st Legion broke the momentum of the Xenos. I am not sure that I would call that a tactical failure. On Dulan, the first fratricide was committed by the Wolves with the annihilation of the boarding party from the Sword of Neumark, a full company of 100. According to Russ, the Lion beat him in the duel. The Wolf King also said that the death of the Lion troubled him deeply and that they had a more certain fraternity after the sword thing. After all, Russ was depressed terribly by news of the Lion's death and memorialized him warmly in the story that he told the first of the new Chapter recruits. On Sagualsa, the Lion speaks several times of the Night Haunter's riddles and veiled references. The message from Kurze was certainly not clear to the Lion. He talks about that fact in the next 3 books with him in it. The short story, "The Lion", really gets some great stuff on the secretive primarch. He tricked Fate Weaver with a sneaky combat maneuver in order to defeat him in direct combat, pretty impressive to be so oblique that Fate Weaver didn't, "see this coming", to quote the Lion. He also seemed to exhibit some kind of psychic shielding techniques or ability referenced by Khyros, maybe this is what allowed him to trick Fate Weaver not only in combat, but rhetorically into divulging the condition of the Emperor. The Lion's capture of Kurze was his intention on Macragge. When he crippled the Night Haunter and had him at his mercy, the Lion bound him and brought him back to Magna Macragge Civitas for trial. The breaking of the sword was in punishment for the Lion breaking the spirit of his word to Sanguinious and Guilliman not to employ certain tactics. The breaking of the sword had nothing to do with whether the Lion wanted to kill Kurze or not. The Lion had the chance to kill him, but did not. Corswain was a B.A., I am a huge fan of Sevatar, and as he was able to match blades with him, that puts him in the top echelon of warriors in the Imperium with Sevatar, Sigismund, and the like. How can you assume that Corswain's mission was a failure when in the Epilogue of Angels of Caliban Typhon and his crippled remainder of a fleet limped to the succor of Luther of all people? Typhon was pushed to his limit; Typhon, of the Death Guard, he and his men were beat the hell out of and pursued by Corswain, the "Hound of Caliban", and resorted to just running from half of the 1st Legion fleet with their (what used to be) half of the Death Guard, including their greatest ship, the Terminus Est. They were whittled, crippled, beat around, and sounded the retreat. Typhon was beat and ran, recognized it, and gave props to Corswain. You should too. Corswain was also talked about in 40k literature by the Fallen, who admitted that they simply ran away in the face of his wrath. The Lord Cypher was against Chaos, sided with the Watchers in the Dark, true. We do not two things however for sure. We do not know for sure that Zahariel killed the Lord Cypher. Zahariel cannot be the current Lord Cypher, Zahariel is a Chaos Psyker, and the Lord Cypher has not indicated anything to do with that sort of corrupted influence or power. Astellan is dead, killed by the Lord Cypher before he met with Azrael. Interestingly however, Astellan was gifted with a certain mental wall/block by the Emperor to resist psychic compulsion and probing. This comes up in Angels of Caliban. This is my favorite legion, so I may seem overly picky. It is likely true, but I look forward to more of your well made stories and more definitive information about the shrouded 1st Legion. I still call them the 1st Legion because they don't exactly separate the chapters from one another. When it comes down to it, Supreme Grand Master Azrael is in charge of all of the Unforgiven, this is why he is one of the most powerful Chapter Masters in the Imperium. He is not simply a Chapter Master, he is the master of the 1st Legion.

[@Jatischar]

King Baldwin IV Thank you Brother for this inspired Comment!

[@LCliffhanger]

its sucks how much people misunderstand that the lion and dark angels are practically the best of them all in most ways, especially considering that both Leman Russ and Guilliman said they Admired him, Horus's main achievement in being made warmaster was the fact that he won over the lion, and i seem to recal that Magnus said Lion had the heart of a scholar or something, and Horus even knew he couldnt turn the lion as lion is essentially the most loyal primarch

[@stephenkolostyak4087]

They were also the Legion from which all other legions drew their specialisations.

[@dzelman444]

The Dark Angels skip skeletons in the closet. They built that mother out of skeletons, use ribs as hangars, and have more skulls in there then Khorne has in his throne.

[@bullroarer-took]

Fair

[@mannofdober873]

*Breaks ankle and trips* "Help! I've fallen! And I can't get up!" *Dark Angel appears*

[@jamiesmith1841]

*pulls out sword* "Let me help you up, HERETIC!!"

[@mannofdober873]

B-b-b-but... You're a heretic! Aren't you..?

[@jamiesmith1841]

EVEN MORE HERESY!! EEEEAAAARRRRGGGHH

[@stephenkolostyak4087]

Repent today for tomorrow you die... Which tomorrow that is, however, depends on a number of factors. You know how bureaucracy is.

[@moriendus]

Yours is the best of the 40k channels. You write your own material and deliver it fluidly. Thank you, Michael.

[@TacticaImperialis]

Thank you!

[@Brody_Austin]

Dark Angels were the first legion and they're still a legion to this day! Long live the Dark Angels LEGION!

[@vangyang1696]

Brody Austin Long Live the Lions!

[@NornQueenAlexis]

Lion is sleeping beauty and hes prince luther need to awake him

[@captainsatire9628]

EgoQueenAlexis I so badly want this to be cannon

[@TheCorrodedMan]

The sleeping lion,waiting for the handsome Phoenician to come wake him up

[@Matt-md5yt]

I thought Guilliman would?

[@astark5010]

Or he's Snow White, and the Watchers in the Dark are all Squats in hoods. The heresy is oh so clear now.

[@Erikjust]

Prince Luther Naahh we need Etna from Disgaea she knows how to wake people up (just watch the Disgaea anime trailer for proof of concept.

[@leopoldjenkins]

I've been waiting for this for ages and it didn't disappoint! Brilliant stuff

[@corzahazard444]

A moment of Laxity spawns a lifetime of Heresy!

[@pyrosauria7444]

I find it interesting how the two most secretive legions are the first and final legion. Makes me wonder if there was a rivalry between the Alpha Legion and Dark Angels.

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

It was mentioned that they didn't like dealing with one another but that they did not resent the other's tactics like the Ultramarines and others did.

[@IDyce88]

Lion believed secrets were sometimes necessary and i'm pretty certain Alpharius said the same thing once...but the Alpha legion's secrecy goes WAY beyond that pf the Dark Angels. ever since the Unification Wars the Alpha Legion was INTENDED to be used for secrecy...whereas the First Legion were just the elitist...who happened to be good at it. as for Horus being as good as Lion...i think that was purely because he was raised by his father...which was well...how they were all SUPPOSED to be raised. so i dread to think what would have happened if Lion had been raised by the Emperor

[@unintentionallydramatic]

I'd argue that they had a working business relationship, but Alphas are more spec ops and infiltrators so they don't overlap the way they do wih the Iron Hands,

[@ErrantPainting]

I really wish I had found this video before making my rant last week ^_^ Great job, and very entertaining and informative :D *subbed*

[@lesterramos6468]

If memory serves, the only members of the Ravenwing that know a lot about the Fallen are it's Grand Master Sammael and the Ravenwing Black Knights.

[@TacticaImperialis]

Yes pretty much, as they have been inducted into the Inner Circle.

[@datfox2844]

Allister Ramos often a few sargents are too!

[@leonchervez5969]

The Angels do hide the truth behind layers upon layers of deception, slowly lifting the veil as a marine ascends through the order. I'm pretty sure that the Ravenwing does know that they are hunting traitor marines, just not the true origins of them.

[@IDyce88]

this is just my personal opinion of course...but i feel a lot of people judge the Dark Angels very unfairly. yes they were often arrogant and proud and thought they knew best/ better. but we have to remember that in the days of the Unification Wars (when the emperor was conquering earth with the legions, before the Primarchs returned) the First Legion/ Dark Angels were indeed the pinnacle of what it meant to be Astartes...they fought alongside the Emperor himself and people like Merir Astelan...they knew what true war was. they were by far the strongest legion in that era...it wasn't until later that the Luna Wolves rose to power. so the personality of being arrogant is understandable after having a history like this...it is only natural. and Lion El Jonson...he was easily one of the first Primarchs to learn that Chaos existed (saw it as a child in the wilderness of Caliban) which is why he never shared his childhood with any of his brothers or father...but he also hardly ever QUESTIONED his father's ways...being one of the only sons who was like "you keep secret too don't you father...fine with me". let's face it 40k fans...the Imperium was built upon lies and secrets...and we all know it...and the Lion was just like "secrets can be a good thing too you know."

[@thatlonewolfguy2878]

What if Cypher's true purpose was he was tasked by the Lion himself to take his sword and disappear and only take it back to Terra when the time is right and do literally whatever it takes to survive and keep the sword out of anyone's hands but his, only surrendering it to the Emperor himself? This could explain at least some of his actions like when he came to the aid of Guilliman in the Indomitus Crusade, he's showing his true loyalist colours without giving anything away. He's also now on Terra where he could surrender the Lion's sword to the Emperor himself as idk it contains the energy necessary to keep the Golden Throne going or some plot armour like that, plus it can be used to finally bring back the Lion himself. That is more than possible in my opinion

[@mereanochheart7050]

Yes

[@mereanochheart7050]

They may bring back Leman Russ too I think

[@bassjunkie85]

I like this theory.. Maybe Lion knew it was key to reviving the emperor AND himself.. This could be what awakens him and boosts the imperium.. I can't wait to paint up the Lion

[@silvertemplar8061]

The first thing that got me into Warhammer 40k was Warhammer 40k Freeblade, and to take control of an Imperial Knight they where one of the first space marines legions I ever saw. They seem very cool.

[@KatzenjammerFuu]

21:55 Holy shit, its Lambert from the Witcher.

[@superboy4738]

The Dark Angels sound spectacularly like Arthurian Myths perhaps they were inspired from it

[@TacticaImperialis]

There are cultural influences and references littered through the Legiones Astartes, so it would not surprise me if that were the case to some extent.

[@mremppu94]

21:33 what is Lambert from Witcher 3 doing among the Dark Angels???? o.O

[@randomtemplar2011]

I know right:D!

[@avdv2911]

after a long wait the first has there honour of a vid

[@OEFarredondo]

I play Red Corsairs and use Fallen Angels a lot. Love the models and Cyrus

[@LieFieLiFi]

The book 'descent of angels' by mitchel scanlon, sheds a lot of light on caliban, its customs and more. Fantastic read imho

[@johnnyscifi]

My favourite loyalist legion. My favourite loyalist primarch being Sanguinius

[@kierancunningham377]

You'll find it was Astelan in league with Typhus using a second artefact that was causing the warp rift in 30k times as Astelan wanted to bring into the future all the fallen he had under his command back to the 41st. It was only foiled by Azrael wounding Typhus and a ravenwing pilot in a dark talon using the warp cannon to seal the rift to stop it. As for Cypher, Zahariel didn't actually kill that current cypher but ordered the other librarians (Mystai) to remove/bury him. As for Zahariel it has been hinted at that he was in fact taken to become one of the 8 founders of the Grey Knights and was then know as Epimetheus by the conflict with a greater deamon Abbadon recognising him and confrontation between Kaldor and Azrael being accused of taking the grand master which hinted at the grey knights thinking the dark angels knew of Epimetheus's roots and the knights founding. Sorry this is so long.

[@menschman1464]

“A 40k miniseries”: has more episodes than most long form anime

[@michaelbread5906]

Luthor went on 1 fight, and he got ditched on Caliban to spend the rest of his days. The men on board with Luthor were forced to do the same. For something like 75-100 years, these astartes had to sit on the sidelines twiddling their thumbs while the crusade was at its peak. The mutated animals on the death world were known as "danger beasts." It was believed that all danger beasts had been purged from the world during El'Johnsons crusade years ago. However, a new danger beast had been discovered and slain. The new danger beast had left tracks to a layer. There, the astartes who had only been deployed once since their inception were met with a conundrum. Wait for the Lion to come take care of the problem (since he just happens to be visiting at the time) or enter mortal combat for once, and spread the Imperial Truth. They decided to attack the danger beast, only it turned out to be a phsycic chaos monster that nearly killed them all. A member of Luthors team was some sort of psyker, and defeated the beast. In its death throes, it began to destabilize the planet. Just as Luthors man had killed the chaos spawn, Lion el Johnson had arrived to the chamber, where assuming Luthor was insubordinate for not waiting for him ordered his troops to open fire. The same psyker under luthors command and all the astartes following Luthor were loyal to Luthor, and were shocked at El'Johnsons betrayal. The psyker used his powers to warp everyone loyal to Luthor away from the exploding planet. This formed a warp tear, teleporting them randomly across the future. They are the group of "traitors" that the Dark Angel's are purging throughout history. At the end of the day, they were loyal to the emperor, and El'Johnson was an asshole.

[@Azphreal]

You missed the group who were physically corrupted by the warp but remained loyal to the Emperor.

[@golgarisoul]

*[EXPUNGED]*

[@pavs8211]

I thought Guilliman was the best strategist out of all the Primarchs. I mean, Horus feared him, that's why at the start of the Heresy, Horus sent Guilliman far to the East of the Galaxy because Horus feared Guilliman's strategic mind...

[@TacticaImperialis]

That's part of it yes, but Horus also wanted Guilliman out of the way due to the sheer size of the Ultramarines Legion (the largest of all perhaps at the time). So it was probably a combination of factors that influenced his decision.

[@warcrimenthusiast]

Guilliman is more of a logistician/administrator than a military strategist

[@gibbons2012]

I just got into the tabletop but have been involved with the lore since i was very young, i based my chapter as a dark angel company separated and did what they had to just to survive, and were branded renegade for their new found tactics and operations yet they still serve the Emperor loyally. Watching this video really was amazing to see deeper into the Dark Angels and i love that your videos arent just wiki rips. Thank you so much for making these videos, please keep em coming.

[@TacticaImperialis]

Glad you enjoyed the video! Any suggestions for future ideas?

[@gibbons2012]

ive watched all the videos on the chapters that went over them mainly pre heresy, and thought those were all good. I know you work with the information that is out there so theres only so much you can go over in those areas. Idk to be honest i love the direction youre going and never really see a video coming out and think man i wish hed do a video on *insert topic* instead. I just try to learn a little at a time per video coming out in all directions. Do you have your own ideas for a marine chapter or custom craft world? Like maybe stories and personal lore on some of your own 40k boys youve played with maybe? Or even ideas on some custom faction youve thought about throwing out there?

[@jacobs4545]

its kind of annoying how infallible curze seems to be for as unstable as he was

[@jerec1267]

Jacob Siegel well he was made to be the perfect judge Completely impartial and essentially flawless in his judging of any situation. His problems came from the ideas of punishment to fit the crime, he would flawlessly decide whether you were guilty or innocent but at that point it's anyone's guess what happens to you

[@ReconRookie]

Can you do a video on the successor chapters?

[@lucasbeck1391]

Ah the dark angels the -legio- chapter that makes all commanders on the planets whisper "cunts" upon their arrival

[@ZerberusKnight]

Commonly known as The Lion or the "Oh shit I died guy"

[@axelNodvon2047]

I think Lion will be royally pissed off because I think he won’t get as much respect and authority as Guilliman when he returns because he isn’t the first, so most of the power would be given to Papa Smurf first. Just like how he was angry that he wasn’t Warmaster because fate made it so that Horus was the first primarch to be discovered, not the Lion.

[@LCliffhanger]

he wouldnt really be pissed due to a lack of authority, he'd have far more to be pissed about, besides he gets along quite well with guilliman and would probably be given a role similer to the one he had in imperium secundus, if not he'd probably just do exactly what that job involves anyway as guilliman would be the only guy who could overrule him in any way

[@ukaszbiaek6641]

@@LCliffhanger resurecting a Legion perhaps?

[@LCliffhanger]

@@ukaszbiaek6641 he would need to do much in that regard aside from give azreal more direct authority over the other chapters, that and the chapter would immediately come and pledge themselves to him, the dark angel chapters are probably the most unified as they dont differ like the other chapters differ from eachother, so essentially the chapters would go back to working just like they did back in the heresy for the most part

[@ukaszbiaek6641]

@@LCliffhanger I agree and because of that i am a little triggered by the whole indominous crusade becouse now theoretically sw ord blueberries can easily have united legions of their own :p sitll looking forward to return of Lion and shashing grizlyman perfect teeth

[@johnnyscifi]

Was Luthor in communique with Horus, or any of the traitor legions? Or, was their fall completely isolated?

[@datfox2844]

they didnt get to terra because the space wolves made them stop for everything. at least according to jonson. also the emperor does know, said in the 7th codex i think

[@sjewitt22]

What's the shot used at 21:39 from? It looks like it from a game or something?

[@freakwntwatchr]

Thanks alot ya blueberry! Now I know how Nemiel dies! So much for that duel between cousins I was hoping for!... oh well.

[@ABCefgy]

HOW CAN A MERE AUGMENTED HUMAN WITH SOME BLESSINGS FROM THE CHAOS GODS DEFEAT A FUCKING PRIMARCH?

[@TacticaImperialis]

Maybe, like the Emperor with Horus supposedly, Lion was holding back? Either that or just Chaos went all in on Luther with power boosts

[@Amazing20225]

Inb4 Asmodai makes ur ass repent

[@markhartshorn3476]

If the new lore is correct the lion will probably not forgive Luther. But then again its dark angels they are mistrustful understanding given the fallen

[@javiermartinez664]

After that i only have one question left about the darks angels. WHAT HAPPPPPENS IN CALIBAN ???????

[@vasilgevezov3424]

I am a bit disappointed that you didn't mention how at first Konrad wins, then the Lion broke his back and paralyzed him in their next fight.

[@TheEthanEdge]

Is this a sneaky batman joke?

[@diegotapia2830]

the darnk angels always say the truth and nothing more that the truth

[@richardb4907]

Going to do a video on the pretorian imperial guard ?

[@TacticaImperialis]

I'll see what's available in terms of information.

[@richardb4907]

Tactica Imperialis I don't know if there will be much to be fair. Always been a faviourite unit of mine just behind the jungle fighters

[@turmunhkganba1705]

I thought it was the Emperor and the lion were winning but they couldn't deliver the final blow

[@thewoundedwarg3254]

Turmunhk Ganba That is true, but in the case of The Lion, Luther capitalized on his hesitation.

[@Memento--Mori]

The Wounded Warg Luther showed no mercy to heretics.

[@pxaxmortx7321]

My only comment here is that it’s not actually fact that the lion found out about Luther’s betrayal! Some argue that the lion sent Luther back to Caliban as he was the only one he trusted to keep the planet safe, thus honouring Luther, but Luther simply didn’t understand the honour as the lion was a social reject and couldn’t just say! This is also why the fallen are made to repent before death, they are considered misguided loyalists not heretics, even Luther!

[@HaloFTW55]

I'm going to wait for the XVth Legion.

[@johnnyscifi]

Who is more secretive? Dark Angels, or Alpha Legion?

[@terrybowman5870]

Alpha Legion, for if they did have a schism, nobody would ever know, not even the rest of their own legion!

[@edenromanov]

So about how old was Luther when he became a Space Marine?

[@TheEthanEdge]

He didn't become a marine he was too old, they just genetically enhanced him and probably put cybernetics in him. So in a lot of ways he would have been like a space marine but not quite there.

[@judowrestlerka]

I guess that its not out of the ordinary to find an 8 foot tall teenager in your jungle......no story ever says, "Then tge people of Caliban marvled over the 10 foot tall leader of their world."

[@GRBoi1993]

Johnson is my least favourite primarch Aristocratic in attitude, self important, and with a flair for excessive dramatics in the way they horde secrets. It’s almost surprising he didn’t join Horus.

[@heathenpride7931]

Chris Leonard While I hate the Dark Angels, I’m warming up to Lion when I look at his story as a tragic tale of two brothers turning against each other.

[@TearDownGenesis]

What book does this whole Dark Angels going into the past?

[@TearDownGenesis]

Yeah, no. I've not read a Dark Angels book where some time travel. I'm referring to the Casual Loop and stuff mentioned at 18:15

[@nealwithers1]

A book called "The Unforgiven" which is the last book from the Legacy of Caliban Trilogy. The first book is "Ravenwing" and the middle book is "Master of Sanctity" the trilogy is written by Gav Thorpe.

[@thewoundedwarg3254]

3:40 Jungles of Caliban?

[@sjoerddz]

13:00 you have not read the horus heresy book involving this incident i take it, from the book itself its pretty obvious that the lion was far superior in combat than his brother

[@peterquint3816]

I have Savage Weapons on audiobook and just listened to it now to be sure and Curze would have strangled the Lion if not for Corswain stabbing him in the spine. And the fight started with the Lion stabbing Curze. I kind of hate Curze but the book in no way indicates Curze is inferior in combat to the Lion.

[@sjoerddz]

curse is the better brawler yes, but what i meant with combat and thats a miswording in my part(sorry for that) but i ment formal combat as in swordplay and such.

[@baklan-in-the-neighbourhoo7665]

FOR THE LION!!!!!!!

[@heaftygorilla2165]

FOR LUTHER!!!!!!!

[@petretti3537]

Alright, I didnt like the Lion that much before, but now that I know that he killed Nemiel, I hope Lion El'Jonson dies horribly

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

How could you NOT have known that? It was in the short story, "The Lion". He killed Nemiel because when they were being overrun by warp demons, Nemiel was publicly trying to negate his command to reinstate the Librarians on the ship in order to turn back the demons. The Lion warned him that he had authority, speaking for the Emperor. Nemiel attempted to gainsay his primarch as the ship was being overrun. He got punched, once.

[@petretti3537]

I read The Descent of Angels in which I thought Nemiel was a badass chaplain. There is also the theory in which the Lion is actually chaos corruptedn I like that theory and I liked Nemiel, fuck Lion El'Jonson

[@baklan-in-the-neighbourhoo7665]

Petretti He isnt corrupted.If he was ever then the entire Imperium would be a memory.

[@Memento--Mori]

Yes, another Chaos video!

[@randomtemplar2011]

Dark Angels are loyalists m8

[@InquisitorThomas]

30:48 Don't you mean TRAITOR and Fallen?

[@Memento--Mori]

Inquisitor Thomas Dark Angels are all CSM, just like the Alpha Legion is really loyalist.

[@baklan-in-the-neighbourhoo7665]

Collin If Dank Angels were traitors the Imperium wold never exist in 40k hater.

[@michaelknuds790]

I just love how people who clearly have no love for Dark Angels find it in their time to give us lore all the dark Angel's despite their negative views on this glorious chapter. I give you two thumbs down bro

[@pavieb5376]

I still to this day do not understand how Horus or even the Lion were considered to be the top contenders for Warmaster title. I mean, how did the Emperor not clearly see that making Guiliman the Warmaster would of been the sound choice? I don't want to seem like a fanboy here but the Emperor is supposed to basically have God level intellect yet he couldn't see the potential in Guiliman? Ha, the man had the same vision as his father, in his own right created a prospers self-sufficient 2nd Imperium, his tactics and strategy saw that his legion had very minimal casualties, if none at all, which led it to being the biggest and the strongest legion numbering 250,000 legionaries. I can keep going, he achieved so much more than Horus and the Lion put together in the half the amount of time... I don't know, it's just seems like Guiliman was beyond the other Primarcis and their petty affairs, I think the Emperor saw that and left him to his own devises. Hm, but I digress, it's only a thought... Ha, incoming Ultra Smurf hate!

[@ThnderMCC]

Pavie B No Smurf hate here. Both Horus and the Lion had the biggest rolls of honours of the primarchs from what I remember. Guilliman wasn't the only primarch with a spacecapable empire, Dorn being another. While Guilliman was a fantastic logistician, he wasn't the warrior or general Lion or Horus was. He was a master of logistics and planning, rather than battlecraft and direct combat (Though again, being a primarch, he's still a godlike general compared to mortals) The Ultramarines only had the largest legion after the Dark Angels were devastated during the Rangdan Xenocides. He was by no means beyond the other primarchs. He would have been respected. But not to the level of Horus, who was beloved by so many for his charisma and achievements. Just a rough summary tbh :)

[@astark5010]

I think that the Emperor saw Guiliman more adept at the administration of the Imperium and despite being a brilliant tactician, Horus had more field experience which was probably why he was made Warmaster. He was already at the forefront of the crusade and so it probably made more sense to give that title to him.

[@ThnderMCC]

Pretty much. Guilliman lacked the pure military ability of Horus and the Lion, so he was off the cards for the Warmaster title. Coming down to Horus and the Lion, the key difference between those two is that Horus had charisma. Lion didn't, wasn't a people person. Everyone who wasn't a primarch loved Horus, and even then, most of his brothers loved him too.

[@pavieb5376]

Darkwrath121 I say again, Guiliman was so adept at military strategy and tactics that his legion suffered very minimal casualties, which in turn lead it to being the largest legion. It was also the 2nd legion to have conquered the most worlds for the Imperium, not only that but the 13th legion wouldn't move on until the planets were self-sufficient and had trade routes with other systems, and with well applied defense systems. Ha, even then, Horus had a head start compared to Guiliman. It is even mentioned that Horus had to hurry along with his plans on Terra due to the knowledge of Guiliman's fleet closing in. It's all in the books, fellas. Hm, as for Guiliman not having the same caliber to be a warrior compared to the Lion and Horus; may I remind you he took on Angaron and Lorgar, 2 vs 1 and still held his own.

[@ThnderMCC]

Pavie B He was a jack of all trades, master of none, save for administration and empire building among the primarchs. I have read the entire series multiple times. Yes, he held his own against Lorgar. But Lorgar is the weakest primarch in martial terms. As for Angron, a primarch can hold their own against another, but Guilliman was barely able to hold back Angron's greater strength. Also, with the book in front of me, it wasn't 2v1, Lorgar stood back to await Angron's transformation. The best fighters among the primarchs are known in the lore to be Russ, Angron, Sanguinius, Horus and the Lion. This is not only reflected in the lore, but also their tabletop rules (Yes, I prefer not to use that as a source, but it is another piece of evidence, so y'know). Hell, the Lion catches a blade that Guilliman is pretty sure he wouldn't have even seen coming, let alone caught, in Unremembered Empire The idea of Guilliman being the most powerful primarch is simply lore-incorrect. By the standards of his brothers he was perfectly average. He was a builder of empires, but was not the best general or fighter among the primarchs. As for the Ultramarines themselves, they were also well-respected, but again. This does not magically make them the best or most powerful legion. And of course the legion established worlds with infrastructure and government. THAT was Guilliman's role. Not frontline leadership necessarily. And the nurturing of captured planets wasn't something unique to the 13th legion either, but they became the standard for balanced conquest and administration. I love the 13th Legion of the Heresy era, but the concept of them (and their primarch) being the paragons of everything is incorrect and just goes against their very purpose and identity as a legion

[@yobo1152]

So they can be a traitor legion or a loyalist??

[@baklan-in-the-neighbourhoo7665]

YOBO115 Loyalist

[@carterdahl2178]

Before I watched this I would of guessed that the Ultra Marines were the first legion

[@UsedGames]

👐 the 🦁

[@dirt0133]

Johnson is a Tactical genius, not a Strategic one. Though i Love the Dark Angels Lionel Jonson has to be the Worst Fuckin name of not only the Primarchs, but ANY character EVER in 40k. Way Worse than Orkimedes! Fuckin Garbage. Yes, i realize it's not Lionel, but com'on! (sp)

[@EungsuLee]

30k 1st Legion : Badass Black Knights in SPAAAACE 40k Dark Angels : Muh SupA SEkrEetz HUrr dUrR ...Heresy is one helluva drug I see.

[@juanpablomontalvo4715]

Dark angels are a trash tier legion Lion L Johnson was cool tho