The False Heritage Of The Raptors - 40K Theories

[@40KTheories]

*NOTE* : So at 7:07 I accidentally put the picture for Index Astartes volume 4 when it was supposed to be volume 2. My bad. >_

[@jimmyprince6172]

It good bb

[@40KTheories]

@@jimmyprince6172 The funny thing is that Naerina also watched this back for QC purposes, so no idea how we both missed it. Especially since this is the second instance of us missing something to do with the number 4 xD

[@darkenvader]

I asked for this a month or so ago I'm so happy you delivered my lady and I greatly appreciate it and think you did an amazing job thanks.

[@SymbioteMullet]

@@40KTheories whichever warp entity that has the sacred number 4 is watching you...

[@JcBravo8]

Your shame is immeasurable and Abaddon laughs at you.

[@cp1cupcake]

"Raptors chapter declared missing in action" They are a stealth chapter. When you consider how poor information travel is in the Imperium, how is this surprising?

[@ComradeOgilvy369]

It's like when people say we have no evidence that the shinobi were just samurai doing spec ops... Exactly

[@venerablebrothergoriate5844]

I love their olive green color scheme and simple heraldry system. Purely functional, no room for fancy bullshit. They’re brutal weapons and they embrace it.

[@bloodwolfkoji]

It's sad there's so little known about the Raptors ): They're actually a fairly cool chapter

[@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623]

They're in-game modern day special forces, that makes them very cool for players who like the setting, but not so much all the shoutey run at your enemy for melee stuff, as shooting from afar makes more sense.

[@zachjohnson8944]

@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 They are just like the Reasonable Marines but, you know, canon.

[@jagnestormskull3178]

That's why they aren't mentioned.

[@AzrealMaximus]

@L.E.B you honor us🙏

[@sethclark2802]

the idea of a bunch of nightlords nicking the raptor chapter after they all died and becoming super stealthy and sneaky to hide it is super funny to me for some reason

[@AnimeSunglasses]

"I learned this one from an Alpha Legionnaire..."

[@bbdf21]

I believe they were just lucky that their Geneseed didn’t deviate as much. Maybe their Apothecarium had learned a technique that the other Raven Guard Successors did not have. According to the current space marines Codex, this is possible, as all Apothecaries Show different levels of expertise that corresponds to their region of space.

[@40KTheories]

That is always a distinct possibility!

[@bobmilaplace3816]

It was the Emperors will for them not do deviate.

[@____________838]

All according to plan…

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

The canon Reasonable Marines.

[@mikecampos1193]

They actually prefer sniping from afar so yeah they they would be the long range specialist.

[@pirig-gal]

What I hate about the homebrew Reasonable Marines (like 1d4chan version) is that they don't make sense if you think about it. They would be only effective against renegade humans. Psychological warfare and pacification tactics won't work on Orks (who just love fightin'), Eldar (who's thoughts are way too different), Chaos (you goddamn know why) or Necrons (beep boop, we all are the troops). The only other faction who might be susceptible to these tactics is Tau, and they woud be competing with RM's long range proclivities, maybe even outgunning them in that sense. If they're THAT narrow in their target selection, might as well send Imperial Guard regiment. Maybe Elysian Drop troops?

[@izzymosley1970]

@@pirig-gal I thought that they just killed orks but it's been a while since I read the article.

[@izzymosley1970]

@@pirig-gal I also remember from that article that to give chaos cultist therapy when they captured them and actually works to make them normal again.

[@pirig-gal]

@@izzymosley1970 And they didn't get _Excomunicate Traitoris_ 'd right away? It always seemed to me that Chaos corruption isn't like an ideology. More like "sickness of the soul", that spreads among people and, once corrupted, they can never be clean again.

[@komrade223]

Rowboat Girlyman: Brothers! Sons! I have written a code for our entire lives! Space Wolves: Yah, I'mma ignore that. Ultramarines: Finally, documentation for brushing my teeth! Raptors: Well, there is some good stuff here, but I'm not chanting as I wipe my ass.

[@xdlol1177]

Ironically, the codex was in fact written as a guide line, not a rule, except for the no legion building policy. The Raptors are one of the few chapters whom actually use the book as intended by Rowbootie Girlyman.

[@elijahkelley7616]

@@xdlol1177 I wanna know what Guilliman thinks of captain Titus then.

[@WasLostButNowAmFound]

Rawbooty gridleman

[@phreakazoith2237]

@@xdlol1177 like the Ferengi's rules of aquisition that were not intended to be strict rules as well.

[@xdlol1177]

@@elijahkelley7616 Considering the fact that Rawboat Girningman, when he returned from his death coma, had inferred that the codex was never supposed to be a set of rules, merely guidelines, similar to Titus.

[@stealthephant4098]

They're a fun chapter. I've always considered them a twisted runoff from the original Raptor Project by Corax. Made up of Marines who witnessed the results and pledged to do differently. That said, their strategies and tactics give me a strong vibe of chimeric Raven Guard and Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion gene-seed is also very stable and without any notable flaws- hell, even looking like Alpharius is a deliberate surgery. It could be that the introduction of Alpha Legion stock stabilized the worst elements of Corax's sons, without leaving any outward visual sign as is its way. As a result, they became in many respects the ultimate stealth operatives. Drawn from the stock of two legions who specialized more than any other in assassination, infiltration and sabotage.

[@jonathantheslow]

I think that they’re either Chimaeric Alpha Legion/Raven Guard, modified Alpha Legion, or loyalist Night Lords (possibly with some Raven Guard thrown in, although I think that the Carcharadons are the Chimaeric Raven Guard/Night Lords or pure loyalist Night Lords chapter.)

[@Sir_Bucket]

"The Night Lords' geneseed has proven to be stable with very little defaults" You know, when I look at the average Night Lord, I'm wandering if the gene-seed might not have a default: make them (litteraly) bat-shit insane

[@homelesstvh7737]

Or maybe the Night Lords only recruit crazy people. As far as I know the original Terran legionaries were normal and sane marines. The legion became infested with lunatics once they started recruiting serial killers from the hellhole that is Kurze's home of Nostromo.

[@AnonymousAnonposter]

So Girlyman would be proud of them being smart enough to understand the Codex Astartes. I believe they use chimeric geneseed, part Raven Guard and part some other Legion. Usually I love the ideia of other chapters being loyalist sons of Konrad or others traitor Primarchs, but let's give something to Raven Guard for once, the poor guys.

[@tarektechmarine8209]

plus they favour marksmanship, so I doubt they are nightlords.

[@kelman727]

They’re RG successors.

[@PeteofHartainia]

Corax is probably Girlyman's favorite brother so he'd be totally cool with the Raptors.

[@commie4164]

unconventional warfare, stealth, fighting the enemy in such that they cant even fight back, disregarding other chapters way's of doing things, impersonating another legion's successor chapter.... all im sayin is it sure does smell a lot like hydra in here... also, their combat doctrines arent... special... enough to be nightlords

[@cypher4783]

I have been reading the book called mind hunters. It has gotten me thinking if a profiler read the warhammer books what would the profiles be. Corax is a loner, an organized personality with a high degree of sophistication. His MO is that of an assassin, detached and efficient. His signature is that of a liberator, try as he might he won't raise his hand to civilians. But, he is insecure and delusional. Insecure because in the book Corax lord of shadows he didn't handle being questioned by his officers. Delusional because in corax lord of shadows he couldn't reason with the satellite lords, for buy into the imperial truth to hard. How to beat him is frustrate his plans by obfuscation and denying propaganda. He will escalate to regain control of the situation. Alpharius is similar to Coarax but with 3 massive differences being he is a personable, secure personality, and with little delusions. His MO is to manipulate, co-OP and to blitz his targets. His signature is espionage, with a passion for obfuscation. He will descalate quickly. Beat him tactically by locking down escape routes, keep the intensity high and compartmentalize your organization.

[@Drew_Thompson]

There’s a bit of hydra in every one.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

Maybe it's Night Lords minus space Batman influence.

[@26th_Primarch]

There's my boys. My favorite canon Chapter next to the Lamenters

[@gojiradestructor]

Certainly interesting to think they may not even be the same chapter from the Second Founding anymore or one made from Traitor Legion gene seed. It does raise interesting questions of how many other chapters could potentially be of similar circumstances such as the Blood Ravens or the Minotaurs.

[@abrammilner9560]

Sons of the Phoenix (also the red scorpions) are believed to be emperors children succesors as well

[@boywithcrackers3871]

The chapter that actually use logic.

[@tarektechmarine8209]

and 7km range of a bolter shell.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

arguably marines useing camo/etc is highly illogical. even guardsmen have easy access to handheld thermals, so trying to be stealthy while running around in powerarmour with massive heat and excust vents (ie it bleeds thermal energy like there's no tomorrow) is a pointless waste of time and effort.

[@boywithcrackers3871]

@@matthiuskoenig3378 its not just that, but the tactics. Also if you're not expecting something you will not see it, its the reason why camo pattern and ghillie suits is used in our modern military.

[@hammer1349]

The raptors were founded by the first 500 "smoothes" from the raptor project. They were essentially 30k primaris, and I imagine some of the flaws running through it were rectified or reduced in prominence. The combination of this geneseed and the pure gene stock on terra could create a much more stable geneseed. Given their way of war, it is likely that loss of geneseed in battle is less than that of other chapters.

[@DoomStarRequiem]

Raptor Marine repainting armor for the warzone at hand: machine spirit forgive me for I must repaint thee. Machine spirit: f*cking finally some common sense.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

*machine spirit: you moron! we stick out like a saw thumb anyway due to the thermal energy i release. stop mucking around like a guardsman and use me properly.

[@RegalChalice]

"As long as it's not UCP, it's all good."

[@galacticbananastopmotions7292]

@@RegalChalice ah yes, grandma’s couch camo

[@RegalChalice]

@@galacticbananastopmotions7292 Knowing 40k, there's gonna be a planet of that exact color pallette

[@jeremyhearne]

@@RegalChalice SAY IT CAN'T BE SO

[@dwightclark7627]

I enjoy any upload from any content creator regarding the Raptors, who are undoubtedly GW's most openly ignored Space Marines chapter. IMHO, forward from 10:27 is the most likely explanation. Wow! Excellent researching, as usual. Thank you, Remleiz.

[@ironsightsmcgillycudy7753]

Would be to see the Raptors or at least their predecessors covered in a 30K novel. Having them be a combination of Loyalist Night Lords and Ravens Guard would be awesome.

[@vontheunknown7982]

I call them Canon reasonable marines

[@thomasalegredelasoujeole9998]

@Reimleiz… Something just struck my mind. The black legion actually has access to the Emperor’s genetic patrimony. Since the battle between Horus and the Emperor was fought on the Vengeful Spirit, and that it’s unlikely the Loyalists had the time to clean up, there must have been quite a lot of the Emperor’s blood on the deck of the Vengeful Spirit’s strategium… What do you think of it ? That should open the door to a lot of speculation, wouldn’t it ?

[@StealthNinja4577]

I always like the idea of traitor legions having loyal chapters. It could also be that the mechanicus in its primaris project experimented on chapters to fix their gene seed before ultimately developing the corrected primaris stocks

[@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623]

Not just in game Reasonable Marines, in game modern day special forces! For all those players who like the setting, but not so much all the shoutey run at your enemy for melee stuff, as shooting from afar makes more sense. And who got lots of paint from painting modern day armor model kits.

[@messageinthebottle1673]

Correct! Thats why I kinda like the tau alien faction because of their down-to-earth sci-fi concept. Raptor is very much in that concept.

[@fadelsukoco3092]

There was this one old sourcebook that states how the codex allows for the astartes to apply camouflage to their forces and units with the exception of certain identifying markers, such as the Paul from displaying the chapter’s insignia remaining unaltered. It showed a bunch of Ultramarine rhinos in different cano patterns.

[@Saidan79]

Chimeric Geneseed? Like the Minotaurs and Carcharodons, I believe (among a few others).

[@40KTheories]

Maybe. It is possible that they altered their geneseed to re-establish the deficient zygotes for the betcher's gland (although you'd have to wonder as to why they didn't fix the one for the mucranoid in the meantime)

[@andrewmcnally5013]

@@40KTheories maybe the Imperium in their infinite wisdom and laziness spliced the Night Lords and Raven Guard geneseed together to keep their traits together, but fix the flaws.

[@Saidan79]

@@40KTheories My second theory is that due to the fact that the Raptors are usually seen as the Reasonable Marines, their geneseed might have been engineered by the Adeptus Mechanicus from different sources in an effort to create a template of marines that don't wear bright orange armor in a forest, make suicide charges to save ten people at a cost of twenty or who actually wear helmets, to then modify the geneseed of other Chapters accordingly :P.

[@garysuarez9614]

That was my idea.

[@jonathantheslow]

@@Saidan79 I feel personally targeted. My homebrew chapter wears orange armor. However, they do have a black ops company and they almost all wear helmets, with the exception of minis that don’t come with helmets or times when I think a head is super cool.

[@gryphonofmight]

I always suspected they were loyalist night lords

[@PeachDragon_]

Except night lords are nothing more than terrorists and criminals, they would never be able to act as methodically as the Raptors

[@Hugme778]

@@PeachDragon_ buddy you just described like all space marine chapters.

[@logosofgame4273]

@@PeachDragon_ That statement is true if you assume that all the members of a Legion held identical views. But even within the Space Marine Legions, there were outliers who were different. E.g. There were World Eaters who were appalled by the atrocities Angron committed, Sigismund and the Black Templars are highly divergent to their Imperial Fist Brothers, etc. Also, a large part of the reason for the Night Lord's brutality was the culture of their homeworld, Night Lords who were not from there would be very different e.g. Night Lords from the original recruits from Terra would have an entirely different outlook than those who became Space Marines under Konrad.

[@PeachDragon_]

@@Hugme778 absolutely not, you're insane

[@PeachDragon_]

@@logosofgame4273 terran night lords were cool as fuck, nostromo's night lords are straight up children with superpowers, even Konrad hates them

[@keithmatthew5578]

Raven guard's. Always the. Best. Chapter

[@dwightclark7627]

And getting a Veteran Sergeant figure in the newest McFarlane 40K releases! 😍

[@kayvaanmcsharrowkyn6901]

HUZZAH MY BATTLE BROTHER! TREUER WORDS HAVE RARELY BEEN SPOKEN!

[@oldeskul]

It's plausible that they might be descended from loyalist Night Lords. I still hold to the headcanon that members of traitor legions that remained loyal to the Imperium had their gene seed blended with those from loyalists to better cover up their heritage and protect them from persecution and any serious defects or influence from the surviving traitor primarchs. Considering how utterly the Raven Guard were decimated after the Istvaan V massacre and the tragedy of the Raptor project, they may have bolstered their ranks with loyalists whom were from traitor legions

[@spookyghostwriter3110]

I think the defections might have come earlier. Night Lords from Terra (pre-Curze) were pretty different from their later counterparts and I could see a reverse Ashen Claws case.

[@joshuablake4595]

It's always the SM chapters which may have a lineage to one of the traitor legions that I find the most interesting and compelling

[@nicholassinnett2958]

Just don't fall into the trap of thinking that every interesting chapter has to be a traitor legion descendant! Some people seem to think any chapter that doesn't act like a clone of a loyalist legion has to be from a traitor/lost legion.

[@JohnTandy74]

I painted some marines in camo years ago and I got quite a lot of grief from friends saying Asartes don’t use camo but I referred them to Istavaan aftermath were a squad of space wolves used mud and foliage to blend in with there surroundings so I’m dead pleased to learn the raptors use camouflage!! Great knowledge bro thank you

[@C4bx732]

Finally a chapter with some actual military sense rather than "look at the 7 foot tall heavily armored man in bright yellow, red/gold, white (while riding a motorcycle), green (with an open flame somewhere), Ultramarine blue, or covered in fur pelts."

[@BlizzardofKnives]

7:25 Such stable gene seed, shame about the Primarch...

[@____________838]

Weird, huh?

[@Matt-md5yt]

Glad you covered these guys. I like them

[@jestinjeffries9430]

Love your work, you are by and far my favorite 40k channel

[@LAV-III]

The raptors show a lot of similarities with the Spartans from halo

[@ironreaver4589]

Heya Rem, another amazing video! I love your work but please take care of yourself, I saw your last few posts on Twitter over the weekend and please look after your health.

[@40KTheories]

Stay tuned for tomorrow's update video.

[@jimmyprince6172]

"Index Astartes II" *Shows Index Astartes IV* but, good theory video

[@40KTheories]

. . . . *FFFFFUUUUUUUU*

[@hughgedney3393]

A very extremely awesome video as always 40k Theories and you are one of my favorite warhammer content creators.

[@northumbriabushcraft1208]

Raptors are my chapter ^-^ I love how they use practical, actually effective combat tactics, being a military history buff. I also like the military green and camo colours, being primarilly a guard player who uses space marines as a allied detachments (and essentially use them as my elite shock troops) the raptors match my guardsmen well (who i have painted in camo fatigues and olive green armour, raptors rock olive drab and camo pouches, cloaks and vehicles) sometimes i'll base my painted camo on real life camo, for example my scout snipers rock Danish M84 cloaks and my guard veterans rock Italian San Marco paratrooper camo.

[@Duppyman695]

The Raptors might use Raven Guard tactics but I would say they are imposters........ im not saying Night Lords but..... *Night* *Lords*

[@Lord_Marshal_Valdar]

Novamarines: The Codex should be followed to the letter! No deviations!!! Raptors: while there are some good things in it we are going to use it as your Primarch intended, as Guidelines. Black Templars: What Codex?

[@hexwrench4433]

I blinked for a moment at 9:06 and though I was looking at the same picture. Trippy...

[@40KTheories]

That was kind of the intention x3

[@gryphonofmight]

Remleiz must be happy with a chapter of possible Loyalist Night Lords

[@georgevanderslice9720]

The Raptors and the Carcharadons

[@dominicvucic8654]

@@georgevanderslice9720 sharks are raven guard they are to connected to the ashen claws for them to not be raven guard

[@devildolphin2102]

@@dominicvucic8654 Man dude the Charcharadons are all types of Screwy. They are linked heavily to the Ashen Claws. Yet the Ashen Claws hate them. The Night Lords they Fight seem to see them as a Reflection of themselves. And the Chapter Master of the Ashen Claws calls a World Eater a Brother of the Space Sharks Reaper Prime. Soooooooo yeah. GW don’t know which one they are going with as of now I’m saying they have Genseed from loyalists from all 3 chapters with some 21st Cursed Founding Fuckery added so they get the Shark Skin and to make them Mutated so that they can’t be linked to traitor marines.

[@georgevanderslice9720]

@@dominicvucic8654 There is a whole list of things pointing to them not being Raven Guard. Such as the Night Lords noticing that the Carcharadons fight like they do (and not like any other loyalist force they have faced, including Raven Guard), similar recruitment practices to the Night Lords (hence their conflict in that book), a daemon calling the Carcharadons the "lost brothers" of the Night Lords, the Ashen Claws calling the Carcharadons "traitor born", the Ashen Claws pointing out that the Carcharadons don't use Raven Guard geneseed, the Night Lord Sevatar having a vision of the future that was a description of the Carcharadons, and don't forget that the Ashen Claws raided the Nostromo sector during the Heresy (likely encountering loyalist Night Lords).

[@djevisceration2733]

Great video! My $ is on the Raptors coming from the recruits on Deliverance and having some connection to the Raptors project in the HH.

[@dominicvucic8654]

thats what i always assumed

[@VallornDeathblade]

The Raptors are likely descended from the remaining "smooths" of the Raptor program from the Horus Heresy. Considering they were made with almost pure Primarch DNA (before the Alpha legion corrupted the sample) that could account for the Betcher's Gland being present.

[@kelman727]

Nope. They didn’t have progenoids.

[@VallornDeathblade]

@@kelman727 It's been a few years since I read Deliverance Lost, where does that get stated? I recently read Corax and I don't remember seeing it in there.

[@kleanthisxanthopoulos4697]

They sport olive and simple heraldry, they are from the Raven Guard, they use tactics and long range attacks..... FINALLY I have found the chapter that I want to have!

[@MarkoLomovic]

You might want to check out mantis warriors as well, They are tactics just brutal.

[@blacklotus5364]

*checks notes* This is definitely heresy, but it's a good video, thank you for the lore

[@jonathantheslow]

I think that the new incarnation either doesn’t have a functioning melancronic organ and is an Alpha Legion successor or is a successor of the Night Lords, although I don’t think that they fit the bill of the Night Lords very well.

[@spookyghostwriter3110]

Terran born Night Lords would fit the bill in my opinion. Marines that would do anything to get the job done. Possibly might have defected to the Raven Guard out of disgust over how bad Nostromo’s recruits tended to be.

[@trajanfidelis1532]

AL is my bet

[@jonathantheslow]

@@spookyghostwriter3110 That’s actually a super good explanation for it. Being Terran would make sense, and they would definitely tone down the terrorism parts of Night Lords warfare.

[@AlienBillybob1]

The original raptors (raven guard) were closer to primaris marines if you take deliverance lost at its words.

[@aripea1980]

I'm just re-reading the book now, definitely primaris. They would have been created around the same time as Cawl's Primaris, too. Well, within a few hundred years at most.

[@kelman727]

Despite the lack of the two extra genomes, smaller size and absence of progenoids.

[@AlienBillybob1]

@@kelman727 ah but if you read the book they're larger faster stronger than the normal space marine they have recruits battle tested and they literally wipe the floor with veteran space marines. also they are drawn directly from primach dna. So whilst they're not actual primaris marines as in made by cawl they do appear to be a similar type to them

[@1nePercentJuice]

You make great content 👌

[@jager2749]

"Spartans never die Jorge. Therey just mising in action".-Carter A259.

[@project9701]

Loyalist Night Lords or chimeric Raven Guard/Iron Warriors.

[@alexanderm8880]

I would think Raven Guard/Dark Angels would be more likely given their commitment to secrecy. Love me some IW though!

[@project9701]

@@alexanderm8880 A pure, Iron Warriors "loyalist" chapter would be interesting, especially if someone kept a firm hand on the discipline. But, chimeric gene seed makes for great combinations and a Raven Guard/Iron Warriors mix gives us the hit-and-run tactics and the pure pragmatism.

[@alexanderm8880]

@@project9701 I agree, though I've yet to hear of the Raptors using civilians to calculate enemy targeting range. 😂 I still think the Silver Skulls are IW successors from Dantioch

[@project9701]

@@alexanderm8880 True, but I can also see that kind of hard core, no-compromised pragmatism combined with the hit-and-run nature of how the Raven Guard prefers to fight. They aren't afraid of a stand-up fight or going in hard, they view their duty as being HELPFUL people. They want to help their enemy to die for THEIR cause as quickly as possible, not for the Raptors to die in the service of the Master of Mankind.

[@NetMoverSitan]

1:30 - So what Big Papa Ultrasmurf originally intended it to be? | 6:17 - Well, they'd probably be thankful for the Primaris reinforcements. | 6:48 - Fiction's 2nd most horrific version of Batman?

[@aceambling7685]

I like this, it fits with the Raptor's Black Ops aesthetic.

[@zarektheinsane6656]

So if the gene seed for the Raptors did get contaminated by that one Night Lord , wouldn't that make it one of the first chimeric gene seeds?

[@Epifairos]

It seems pretty obscure to have them revealed as Night Lords successors. There's too much evidence supporting Raven Guard. Yet I find appealing the option concerning Kasati Nuon, which might be actually plausible. I also gown fond of the guy and always wanted to know what happened to him after Yarant. He deserves his own book and he deserves at least semi-good ending (as far as 40K goes of course).

[@aylix2137]

the moment he said "there is only one other legion whose gene seeds could give a similar appearance..." I was like.... oh no.. such a cool theory.

[@YorkshirePirate]

Headcanon confirmed: Raptors = Loyalist Night Lords successor chapter.

[@apexpredator2699]

*Me sat here thinking that primaris fix all the geneseed problems and are obvious ways for fixing the adeptus astartes*

[@richmascaro5803]

Alpha Legion? Alpha Legion. Nobody does practical warfare like Alpharious. And they did infiltrate Deliverance and pose as Raven Guard. Maybe some stuck around.

[@fransaacs]

Described as a fleet based chapter engaged in the pursuit of traitor legions (c.M31) the account of their survival upon the death world of Jemadal (c.M41) a willingness to adapt arms and armor to any given campaign and their immutable resilience and consistent 'resurrections' led me to believe the Raptors to be a rather more complex chimeric blend of more than two legion seeds. Given their original livery was yellow and blue and that later they adopted a more sombre olive drab I wouldn't be surprised if, along with the Raven Guard and Night Lords their genealogy also consists in part of the Imperial Fists and Death Guard loyalists. EDIT: and how could I forget, Alpha Legion!

[@dexterello]

Rathors can use both Raven Guard and Night Lords gene-seed at the same time. In addition, after the appearance of primaris, there can be anyone's gene-seed, even a mix.

[@cp1cupcake]

2:04 has the only real picture of a Raptor. The rest are cutouts placed the Raptors to confuse their enemies.

[@Zack-tx7oz]

Wasn't there a formation of new Astartes created by Corax during the Heresy, after given secret gene technology by the Emperor of Mankind? I would think the survivors (those not affected by Alpharius's tempering of the gene seed) were folded in. Thus, similarities but having dissimilarities.

[@kelman727]

No progenoids mate.

[@trajanfidelis1532]

Hydra Dominatus

[@TK199999]

Uhhh, or the High Lords gave the Raptors incredibly pure Raven Guard geneseed from the Terran vaults and for unknown reasons. This form of Raven Guard geneseed has almost no flaws and or hasn't degraded much. Though we know Cawl was banging around already and may have used the pure geneseed he was given by Guilliman to help create new regular Space Marine Chapters in any of the Founding's say the Cursed 21st. Especially when Founding's are made due to some emergency. It may also just as likely be Cawl experimenting with his geneseed stocks to see if techniques he developed for Primis are viable, but using them in new Founding's or gifting them to established Chapters from gene lines that had flaws/deficiencies. Then seeing if his attempts at fixing/stabilizing geneseed has worked. Something to remember, any 2nd Founding Chapter that seems totally different from their supposed official parent legion. Could be made from loyalist of the traitor legions, as said legions were erased anyway from Imperial records.

[@SMScorx89]

Are they competing with the Lamenters in bad luck?

[@Shelldrakeaus]

I run my raptors as purely primaris as my personal cannon is that after the failed raptor project the project was started up again but with primaris instead of first born.

[@cp1cupcake]

Idea: they are Alpha Legion. They aren't scary enough to be Night Lords.

[@DarkApostleNoek]

I always assumed that if it is not 100% known where a chapter hails from, that they are Alpha Legion.

[@Kunori]

There were a couple of uncorrupted marines made during the preliminary stages of the raptor project. Perhaps their improved gene-seed had the organs restored, and elements of them mingled into the rest of what would be the Raptors chapter, in the same way loyalist night lords gene-seed could theoretically have influenced the stock?

[@kelman727]

They didn’t have progenoids. Standard RG back then had all the organs.

[@mohdnorhalimzainudin7740]

A: We need to replenish this chapter. Where is the genestock from Corax? B: Konrad? Err....on the table over there...

[@keithmatthew5578]

The best of best space marine chapter

[@michaelgautreaux3168]

Walks like a duck is a duck. As far as I know they're Raven Guard successors & I'm fine w/ that. Many thanx 👍👍

[@zellway]

I need to get back to my kill teams of the Baddab war. I knocked out a bunch of them but have yet to paint up raptors. I did Mantis warriors and salamanders. wanted to paint chapters of different colors to take a break from green.

[@chickenmonger123]

If I was looking to reestablish stable Raven Guard I’d go for chimeric mixing. If I had stable gene seed of Night Lords I’d consider that. I’d also consider Ultra Smurf as a great baseline of stabile stock. Easily attained. Help pad out the supply. Corvus would be unique enough in comparison to the bland ununique qualities of Ultra to show. Granted cursed and dark founding chimeric legions tend to have a great many unintended abominable qualities. Still some chimeric Chapters are just fine even compared to some ordinary successors.

[@supremetarantulasorcerer165]

Are there any known/theorized alpha legion sucessors?

[@Zakiriel]

In the modern timeline, Belasarius Cawl made the Primaris marines with fully functioning complete sets of extra organs and a couple of new ones to boot. So then if the Primaris Raptors and all the other Primaris Ravenguard are so kitted out, then none of them are missing any organs now. Is this a case of old lore intruding on present time where it no longer applies?

[@40KTheories]

Honestly? No clue. The 8th ed Raven Guard codex supplement also mentions how such organs are still missing from their geneseed, but don't state how this is just for firstborn. Same in the Imperial Fists codex supplement. So... I guess it depends on the writer? _Shrug_

[@peskifrenchi8832]

So, in regarding the Codex as a guide, they actually follow it more faithfully than the Ultramarines do; all as Guilliman wanted. That is funny.

[@keithmatthew5578]

Yeh. Games workshop should bring corvs corvax back to 40 K.

[@NetMoverSitan]

He might come back with Lemun Russ as they were both heading in the same general direction, last time they were seen.

[@voidpunkprincess]

Early tampering/testing from Cawl regarding gene-seed weaknesses and who is to say that the High Lords of Terra wouldn't be interested in being able to dole out stable gene seed that might have been "found" under convenient circumstances? I mean the raptors who were uncorrupted already had easily degenerated gene stock, were the stock was easily corrupted as well. Someone who had been given the mission to refine and perfect the gene seed of each loyalist chapter to make the Primaris, would likely see this challenge as a convenient test-run. Need better soldiers? Go to one of the more promising failed projects and "fix" any of it. It's profitable for research and the immediate war effort, even if it isn't the end result you are working for.

[@nickc9223]

I picked up Raptors going into 9th. Being that Lias is Legends now, whether or not that has anything to do with the following question, could I use my Raptors as a successor of any loyalist founding chapter, despite the iconographic paint scheme and shoulder decal?

[@galumir]

Striktly speaking you couldn't, as they fall under the category of confirmed lineage (at least officially). Though if you do not intend to use Lias as their only available unique unit, you might as well have a "Olive Eagles" Chapter descending from whomever. Or you claim that the original chapter has been destroyed and your Raptors are the newly founded reincarnation but took from xyz gene stock for whatever fluff reasons you come up with.

[@Dusteus]

The Raptors Chapter is kinda Spec ops in space.

[@antcow1239]

They use battlefield specific cammo? How reasonable!

[@TheSignOfZeta]

Heh, Tactical Marines.

[@manuelledu1267]

What if the Raptors chapter was really destroyed rather than missed in action. Maybe they are an Alpha Legion cell now.

[@nobodyman7955]

Probably my favorite chapter of space marines

[@Johnnythat1dude]

The Night Lords and the Raven Guard are so similar not even their successors can tell them apart!

[@MegaHI32]

I was always thinking that the raptors were the actual remaining raptors that weren't killed by their primarch

[@elijahkelley7616]

Now, I'm not saying that they're Alpha Legion, but...

[@Kid_illithid]

Do they ever talk about the raptors having the weird shadow powers that the ravenguard gets? That would seal the deal

[@alanmerino9440]

Ah yes, pre primaris space marines.

[@40KTheories]

I think you might be thinking of the _other_ Raven Guard Raptors ;)

[@tarektechmarine8209]

@@40KTheories could it be a possibility that these new raptors are somehow related(geneseed)to the RG raptors before the alpha legion came along, or maybe remnants of what was destroyed? The fact that they are considered marksman among space marines, the speed of the RG raptors would explain that skill.

[@chilliewhk]

Another Emperor blessed Monday 😇

[@male272]

It would seem that if all Chapters and Legions adopted the Raptor practicality regarding the purpose of war (winning, winning with little loss), rather than measuring dicks they don't have anymore, then they wouldn't have to be concerned with numbers, and could be more effective with pre-emptive efforts. I'm curious why 'practical' Guilliman isn't practical in this regard...or...just add it to the list of 40k inconsistencies...one of 40k of them.

[@willnox1]

Night Lord Geneseed was always very stable. Would be very neat if they were descended from Night Lord geneseed.

[@joseantoniosantiago1258]

What if Vulkan led to the Imperium after the War of the Beast?

[@benhayden9198]

What successor tactics would people run for the raptor chapter if they were NL successors?

[@therobotFrom94]

I think i've found my fave successor chapter of my fave legion. love me some stealthy bois (I will not accept the heresy that they are a Night Lord successor)

[@phreakazoith2237]

the eight legion stroke from the shadows but was not known for dealing out silent death, rather for scare tactics involving maiming and torturing their enemies so everybody coud hear it

[@hellbound_psyker]

Successors often deviate fairly considerably from their progenitor due to mutation, and in the real world mutations can sometimes cause a lost trait to be regained (such as snakes sprouting leg-stubs). I don't find it unlikely whatsoever that the Raptors really are Raven Guard who regained a lost organ through mutation. I never bought the Night Lords theory.

[@PrimordialAnnihilator]

Request: Ashen Claws are they Rogue Trader Astartes