45 ACP Blowout! Tactical HST vs Classic HydraShok!

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[@paultrujillo9923]

Still sending condolences, and thoughts of comfort to you and your family, in regards to the loss of your mother. Very tough indeed, my friend. Please take care, and be safe, - Paul.

[@hrfunk]

Thank you Paul.

[@paultrujillo9923]

You're quite welcome 🙏. Its a long process, grieving for a treasured loved one. Time, reflection, prayer, expressing, ones feelings and thoughts, truly is very cathartic and calming. One never "gets over" losing a mother, but you will eventually get to the point that you no longer hate she passed away, but that she "lived".

[@gregcampwriter]

What you provide here, like Paul Harrell and a small number of others, is something that the whole community needs: a dose of reality. Thank you.

[@hrfunk]

My pleasure Greg. Thanks for watching!

[@dougreid2351]

Well said. DOUG out

[@rolexr]

As I would say...a 230grain HST+P out of a 5" 1911 is always a great defense performer, with great expansion and a nice punch!!!

[@ShaneABaker]

So, this idea to send 45 ammo came to me because I use 185 grain in my bedside tool, but I cannot find the ammo that I use anymore, so I am in the process of making the change to 230 grain. The 230 grain HST, to be exact. So, I figured, why not see if the great HR is interested in testing it? Thank you for the awesome video, HR!

[@hrfunk]

You are most welcome. Thank you so much for providing this ammo.

[@frankhinkle5772]

Thank you, Shane. This is my carry ammo.

[@patmancrowley8509]

I've kept my Commander's magazines loaded with this since the 1990's or so. I'm looking forward to this video.

[@roykiefer7713]

I am looking forward to this video. Decades ago, when my service size EDCs were 1911A1s (a full size Kimber Classic and a Springfield TRP), 230 grain HydraShok were all I carried. I’d wager - we’ll see on Saturday - that “archaic” HydraShoks are still very effective.

[@brianc9374]

I still use them. Golden sabers are great too

[@richardthomas6602]

HST never disapoints nor have I ever seen a bullet consistantly do as well or better.

[@oldcop18]

I’m sending condolences for the loss of your mom Howard, very tough time of year for this. Hope things look up for you in 2025.

[@hrfunk]

Thank you. Happy new year.

[@hod8931]

Yes HST are what I use. Still have flying ashtrays and black talons from years gone by when i carried a 4506 and 4516 😁 Then we switched to G-locks😂

[@frankhinkle5772]

Flying Ashtrays. I don't know how good they were, but I loved them.

[@rdaugherty52]

I carried the Hydra Shock for 20 years as a ATM technician guard sometimes in a busy truck stop with people everywhere I couldn’t have over penetration and would have to stop the threat immediately now that I am older and the 45 is too heavy my EDC is Glock 43X with HST .

[@guardianminifarm8005]

Many thanks. We use HST +P in our 45s. Great performance. My wife carries the 3.3" Shield 45. I think it is around 850fps. My son has a 5" 1911.

[@hrfunk]

I think you’re all well armed. Thanks for watching!

[@garyK.45ACP]

Thanks for all your efforts, HR. I have been carrying Federal HST ammo in all my carry guns in .380, 9mm and .45 ACP for many years. All my tests in gel have had the same results as yours. They are remarkably consistent. They expand virtually identically from my 1911s with 3", 4.25" and 5" barrels. In .38 Special and .357 Magnum revolvers I carry Buffalo Bore .38 Special +P, 158 gr. Lead SWC-HP Your video reinforces my decision. I just haven't seen anything better yet.

[@Stoney_AKA_James]

I have been carrying the Federal HST rounds for years because in our gel tests the penetration and expansion are very comparable to your results. Out of my G21 and G41 the typical expansion is .78" to .80" and penetration is around 13" to 13.5" And that is why I don't carry a 9mm, its expansion is not even close. So well done Howard!

[@hrfunk]

Thank you!

[@brucecook502]

I carry the federal HST 230 grain in my Smith & Wesson M&P Shield 45 because I really like common full weights for any caliber and it seemed after watching so many reviews of defensive ammunitions for the .45, the HST was the only one that performed consistently and sufficiently out of Micro Compact 45's without sacrificing weight. It's the only one I have ever seen expand when the velocities start dropping under 800 FPS. I carry Federal HST in all of my defensive calibers. Federal HST is king, Federal HST FTW!!!

[@JTEllis]

Great video. Back in the nineties I often shot sporting clays with our county medical examiner. And there were many conversations about the bullet of the week. He was of the opinion that bullet performance was not an exact science. Where that bullet hit counted more than how it it performed ballistically. Like you said, shot placement counts.

[@keithplymale2374]

Always a good video when HR puts one out. On the matter of testing JHP's 3-5 years ago Paul Harrell did an extensive test into his meat target. He used every JHP that was in common use at that time. He used firearms with barrel length from two inches on out. He found that the only JHP that would consistently open out without over penetrating was the Hornady Critical Defense with the ballistic perpetrator.

[@HalfCrazy520]

In every test I have seen, both the Critical Defense and Critical Duty in .45 caliber perform very poorly.

[@DirkDiggler6903]

Thanks for your service Marine!

[@Rem-870]

Since I retired from Law Enforcement I tote my Glock 36 or my Glock 27. Sometimes my S&W 638. Thanks for doing this test. I carry in my Glocks old Hydrashok just like you fired. that was our 40sw duty round. Before we went to the Winchester Ranger 180gr (old black talon). I have the HST you fired also I may tote them some.

[@troyspurling1910]

You do great work HR. You are creating an invaluable library of data. You seem to enjoy it and that makes your videos fun. Thank you!

[@hrfunk]

My pleasure Troy. I've done this kind of thing for years. Most of the loads you see in the video are ones that I've tested in the past. I didn't realize there would be so much interest in watching the tests.

[@theoriginalOSOK]

I carry a G23 Gen 4 loaded with 180 Fed HSTs for the very reason shown here with the 45ACP 230 grain version. Thanks for a great report!! I do have a supply of this 230 HST and so now I know I can carry it as well with confidence. I've seen other tests that confirm you findings.

[@hatchetjack1031]

Thanks HR! I've got all my SIG P-220R mags loaded w/ 230 gr. Hydroshok. Glad to see it performed to expectations! Recovered HST looks text book!

[@petesheppard1709]

Well done! Back when I CCW'd a .45, my preferred load was the CCI 200gr JHP--the 'Flying Ashtray'. Mas Ayoob tested it on cattle in a slaughterhouse, and he said it was devastating! AIUI, CCI replaced it with the Gold Dot JHP. Given how that Silvertip zipped through the jugs, I don't think an FMJ control is necessary...

[@Gumby56]

My type of video. Thanks Hank and Shane.

[@jimmybare3026]

The HST is a Surgical bleed out device! Like you said, those pedals are sticking straight out. They're also turning like a drill bit as well. Not to mention the great energy dump.

[@Quinton42]

Great video. I've been using Hydra Shok for years. Glad to see it's still a good round.

[@TheGunfighter45acp]

Outstanding! I am enjoying this AEA series. HydraShoks have always been my baseline for .45acp terminal performance.

[@henryschmidt636]

Can't wait for this one. Hydra-Shock for me always.

[@mikereinhardt4807]

Great video HR. The 45 ACP has always been my favorite cary load. What you said about shot placement was spot on. Always carry a caliber round you can afford to train with to attain the level of compatancy necessary in self defense scenarios...

[@roykiefer7713]

THANK YOU, Howard, for a truly excellent and extremely enjoyable video. I am especially grateful that you emphasized the criticality of the “no magic bullet” thesis. It’s undeniable that Federal’s HST line is excellent, but that ancient Federal HydraShok was nearly as good and obviously had outstanding efficacy (I like your name for these tests). A few weeks ago, you evaluated the even older load158 gain, .38 Special +P, LSWCHP (Saint Louis, Chicago, FBI, etc. ) load. Like the HydraShok, it remains entirely viable for lawful defense. Paul Harrell (God rest his soul) often commented “there’s not enough difference to make a difference,” and I respectfully suggest that the right dinosaur rounds - fired with reasonable accuracy - will suffice. When a .45 ACP JHP expands to roughly .7 of an inch, I am not sure that .05 greater or lesser expansion is tactically or practically meaningful in 99+ percent of legal defensive encounters.

[@hrfunk]

Agreed! I want to test a few more of the “Legacy Loads” from back in the day. It’s fun to see how they stack up against the “newest, latest, and greatest.” In the end, as you said, with good shot placement, I don’t think too many bad guys will notice a difference.

[@roykiefer7713]

@@hrfunk Here’s a suggestion, original 125 grain Remington Golden Sabers compared to current, “super-duper” .357 rounds.

[@justinjones9042]

I'll have to print that formula out and test my ammo . Thank you for posting it , much appreciated.

[@Dukelevi12]

Always refreshing seeing your presentations. Always professional and educated, which is different from most of KZbin…

[@hrfunk]

Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving.

[@joelicenhour10]

Thank you Mr Funk and Mr Chane for y’all’s time and input I do use federal hydarshock now I’ll get some of that newer stuff

[@edperitore321]

Thank you for the quick response and Semper Fi.

[@cowtipper6705]

Real world conditions are under the influence of Sargent Murphy, this was a good display of that. Thanks for putting this out.

[@GunSam]

Water is an almost perfect medium to get hollow point expansion, often times gives expansion to bullets that might not quite expand in various ballistic gels. Seeing no expansion with some of these is concerning. I have noticed from testing vintage .45 ACP loads VS modern day loadings, ammo companies now days only put in the minimum effort into .45 ACP designs and quality control. It's almost as if they test a 9mm load with a certain design, make sure it's perfect, then just make that same design for a .45 ACP and don't even test it to see if it works at lower velocity.

[@hrfunk]

Thanks Sam. I appreciate hearing your thoughts on these videos. You’re probably right about the bullet R&D. The manufacturers put the most effort into what they sell the most of. As an aside, when I was contemplating the idea of producing some of these ammo test videos, I considered using Clear Ballistic Gel as you do. The cost of the stuff dissuaded me. I can’t imagine how much you must shell out to use it as much as you do. Best of luck and thanks for the comment.

[@GunSam]

@@hrfunk With shipping they run about $100, but they are reusable to a certain point, they can be re-melted maybe 4-5 times with them remaining pretty clear, any more re-melts and they start looking cloudy. I do about 8 tests a month with 2 new ballistic gel blocks, then repeat the process of buying two more new ones at the start of my ammo buying cycle and then use the previous month's blocks as backup blocks.

[@swkohnle08]

Excellent test plan and results. Nice to see you doing this type of testing content like Paul Harrell used to do.

[@hrfunk]

Thank you. I like it too.

[@pablosuarez4592]

Our sincere Condolences brother.

[@Joe-lk6oc]

Would like to have also seen Speer 200 +P and Remington 185 Golden Sabre +P

[@ms.annthrope415]

My fav load in CCW carry is the Federal HST Premium 230 grain +P JHP. I believe it has the best balance of weight, speed, energy, and consistency. I may carry other brands, but i stay pretty much with 230 grain +P loads. In 9mm, i prefer the Federal Premium 124 grain +P JHP.

[@kdcowboy9478]

Thanks HR I'm going to watch this again I was cleaning some "items" during the premiere. All the best and keep up the great work 🙂!

[@robertkf1]

Thanks out to Shane!

[@ryanbassett4751]

Excellent video. I carry Federal HST+P in my Glock 30SF. I use Federal HST in 9mm (124gr.+P), 40 S&W (165gr.) and 45ACP (230gr.+P).

[@EDOGZ818]

Hydro Shocks are classic for a reason!

[@johnherr3579]

Good morning HR. Nice testing video, it's always fun to watch water jugs blowing up. Hope you're being "green" and recycling all those jugs. Maybe patch the holes with duct tape and reshoot them.😊 Early on I settled on 200 grain loads for 45 ACP. The Speer flying ashtray was "the" defensive bullet back then. It worked great on bowling pins too. That big cavity would bite in on marginal hits. For competition I used semiwadcutter or truncated cone bullets. All loaded at 900 fps. Good control, fairly flat shooting, and made major power factor. Same point of aim for everything. I see Mimi has taken her Nylon 66 back. I wish Remington would bring them back. Great dependable and fun guns. I bet they would sell a ton of them.

[@hrfunk]

Probably so. The new owners might do well to consider that.

[@gryphonz3]

This was my first AEA view. Nice protocol and very detailed. Interesting and well done.

[@hrfunk]

Thank you!

[@georgesheffield1580]

Either one has worked very well for me as has hand loads with Sierra 230 grain HP's

[@brandiwynter]

The one thing I've learned from watching about a million ballistic gel tests is that every ammunition manufacturer (minus maybe the high end match ammo makers), every ammo manufacturer puts out underloaded ammo. In some I would say it's poor manufacturing and QC and others I would say it's on purpose to save money by shorting each cartridge.

[@stevenlefebvre2991]

Great video thank you

[@bigracer3867]

Hydrashok. Is top notch in my opinion 🎉🎉

[@TheRealZJM377]

Bullshit. Barnes TAC-XPD are right next to the HST

[@sr-5568]

@@TheRealZJM377 Another expert self proclaimed.

[@TheRealZJM377]

@@sr-5568 o ok thanks

[@propertypreparedness6846]

As someone who has access to hand loading, I chose a 40 S&W and 10mm. Yea yea… I know 40sw the most hated pistol round for some reason. I can shoot 165gr well above expansion thresholds from even factory loads down to 3.5” barrels. When I want to rock and roll, the same projectiles can get uploaded to a 10mm and get great full frame duty performance. I only need to buy 1 diameter of bullet in different varieties. Made sense to me, but what do I know.

[@FuzzyWCTX]

I still catry the HydraShok in my Govt Model 1911

[@hrfunk]

I think you’re well armed!

[@bertbirge3617]

Very well done Sir! Thank you

[@kentalanlee]

Have to admit, I didn't expect that round exiting the last jug, especially at such a low fps.

[@milehighgimpster]

Very valuable information sir. Thanks for testing this ammo for us. HST is hard to beat.

[@Joe-lk6oc]

Excellent video yet again HR!

[@hrfunk]

Thanks Joe!

[@nomadicobserver4224]

Maybe you could redo the Slivertip, along with 230 ball, and 230 Remington Ggolden Sabre. Great video.

[@hrfunk]

I was thinking of doing that. I’ll have to source some Golden Sabers to add them to the test.

[@nomadicobserver4224]

@hrfunk Awesome.

[@gameragodzilla]

Would love to see you test Winchester Ranger T .45ACP as well, since that round has some gnarly expansion.

[@hrfunk]

If I can get hold of some I’ll give it a try. Thanks for watching!

[@gameragodzilla]

SGAmmo currently has a sale on a bulk purchase of 500 rounds, if you have the money to spend.

[@DRAGONRIDER385]

Thank you for the testing. I carried the Hydra Shock many years ago. I have been thinking of going to the HST. Instead of what I carry now. 🇺🇸

[@hrfunk]

Truthfully, I think if the Hydrashok functions well in your pistol(s) you are fine if you keep using it.

[@speedyconcretepumper]

Great video HR. I normally carry HST in my Glock 30 but I would trust Gold dot or hydro shocks.

[@jthrelf]

HST still king! great data, thanks can't believe Federal lets that syntech defense out the door...

[@danoneill2846]

Many thanks !

[@Nickrioblanco1]

Good lesson from this video is to test your ammunition. If you don't have a chronograph. Surely you can get some milk jugs with water to shoot into. I always put a board behind my last jug in case.

[@daleweller5193]

Buy a 1911 with a 3 inch barrel for concealed carry,you will love it!

[@JD1911A1]

Federal LE HST is all I carry in anything.

[@stansdds]

New subscriber here, really enjoying your videos. That Winchester 185 grain Silvertip must have truly been intended for use against werewolves. No expansion at all. Well, it is old JHP technology, so not entirely surprised. Maybe you need to add a Paul Harrell style fleece backstop to the water jug system. The Federal Syntech sounds like really lightly loaded. Your velocity recordings are far short of what Federal advertises. Not sure what's up with that, maybe the Vista Outdoors ownership of Federal, Remington, and Speer/CCI is becoming a really bad thing. Federal's Hydra-Shok was a good bullet for its era. Their HST is far better and the HST is far more consistent, even in calibers less than .40 in diameter. Another bullet that is usually a good performer is the Speer Gold Dot.

[@hrfunk]

Thanks for subscribing and welcome aboard!

[@robertboothby2069]

I have found the Hydra Shock Reduced Recoil 165 gr works fine for me. I would like to see how it compares with the 230 gr. Great job, well done. You put in a lot of work....

[@hrfunk]

Thank you!

[@darrelldunlap7249]

Just excellent relavent content! Like you, I expected a lot more fighting performance out of that Silvertip. Used to carry that on-duty in .357! I will be looking for that HST to stock up on and carry for my .45 guns.

[@hrfunk]

For what it’s worth, I think the .357 Magnum Silvertip was a pretty good load. That one might be fun to test in a future video.

[@mrgunner5351]

I’ve been carrying the 230 grain hydras in my full size 1911s and 185 grain in my short barrel 45s for decades. In addition to their nice performance, they have been very accurate I 1911s, Glocks and a Springfield XDM. Recently, I’ve been trying Sig V Crown since Hydra shocks aren’t available now. The Sig ammo works great, but I might have to check out the HST.

[@hrfunk]

I’ve done a little testing with the V-Crown ammo and so far it has performed quite well.

[@raybo34]

45 hollow points are finicky beasts when it comes to expansion. I have seen the same results for the Silver Tips in other tests.

[@hrfunk]

That’s the first time if seen that from an STHP. I might have to re-test that load.

[@dorisjohnson8857]

@@hrfunk I've usually considered 1000 fps as a reliabilty thresh hold for HP expansion Trying 5" barrel with chrono might be in order ❤DJ

[@Titan500J]

What you need is a new and improved high tech fleece bullet stop. Just jinding nice video

[@jwc00789]

Interesting and informative results! Very surprised at the lack of expansion and velocity of that Winchester Silvertip!!! Winchester Quality slipping. I have carried the Silvertip, Hydrashok, Gold Dot, and currently Gold Saber loads, but in the 185 grain Bullet weight.

[@markhankins3023]

Excellent video, well presented, easy to follow. Always fan of 1911.

[@hrfunk]

Thank you!

[@bobperrine6193]

I once knew an officer who carried a 9mm when everyone else was carrying 40 S&W. He said it wasn't the bullet, but where you put it.

[@jefferyboring4410]

I’ve heard some depts if they can’t pass with the 40 let em go to the 9 it’s possible he just couldn’t pass on a .40 ppl say all sorts of odd things

[@heyoldtime8969]

It should be noted when talking about barrel length, In a semi auto the chamber is included in the barrel length. The barrel starts where the rifling begins. Therefore one should subtract the total length of the round. Semantics I'm aware.

[@hrfunk]

If I was comparing the performance of the ammunition between semi-autos and revolvers I would point out that distinction.

[@apbiggins8mm]

I always liked the hydra shock

[@jamessmith-hq5mr]

I always thought the name Hydrashok was goofy since no bullet causes any shock whatsoever unless it's traveling at least 2,200 feet per second at impact.

[@hrfunk]

I don't know if you remember the defensive load that Federal sold before the Hydrashok, but it was called the "Hi Shok." I think Hydrashok was just an evolution of that name to keep some level of familiarity with their customers.

[@davidchampagne464]

Nice test man, thank you.

[@hrfunk]

My pleasure. Thanks for watching!

[@curtshelp6170]

I think they loaded the syntax for a 455 Webley. I didn't;t like the appearance of that projectile. Silvertips aren't like they were 20 years ago. The ball should react like the Sivertip did. I liked the hydrashock. HSTs always act right.

[@pistolpete6321]

Interesting test results, great video!

[@hrfunk]

Thank you!

[@DeanPatterson-j9q]

Good show , though I don’t care for Winchester brand shells , give it another try. The Syntec looked like a Hard Cast. Must need more to mushroom. Semper Fi

[@Cruiser777]

Some of these rounds you might as well use FMJ good video enjoyed it thanks for the insights😅

[@DanTheWolfman]

FYI it's well know the old .45 Hydrashok has many real world failures to expand through multiple layers of clothing or from short barrels so Winter or Northern states would not be great choice though even a none expanding jhp does tear 16% more tissue then FMJ fyi, the HST or punch will not have that issue so are a way better choice if feeds reliably. I've tested HST, Critical Duty, as well as 185 Golden Saber, Sierra, and Hop. .45 held it's own today in my TIMED 6 Caliber Battle! Hr was that Syntech Defense bought in 2020 or 2021 when issues... If you send me LOT number I will send the info to Federal or you could contact them. Dec 7th Modern Meat Target with the 9mm Syntech Defense Lung poppers I bought on my own & it segmented as intended from both Short and Long barrels for those interested.

[@hrfunk]

Thanks Dan, I’ve heard of “failures” from just about every handgun bullet I can think of. In the end there are just no guarantees. Avoiding the gunfight in the first place is always the best option (if possible). Thanks for the comment.

[@anthonysharp7645]

'Tools & Targets' did a test of the 40 S&W SilverTip several months ago that also got very strange results. When fired from a full size 1911 the projectiles performed just like FMJ's, no expansion at all. When fired from a Glock 30(3.8 in. barrel) the projectiles performed well with good expansion, the exact opposite of what you would expect. It would be interesting to find out why that is happening. Just goes to show ballistics can be weird.

[@hrfunk]

Yes they can. I may well test this load again in the future.

[@curly__3]

Awesome test! Thanks.

[@davidjernigan8161]

Crazy that the silvertip was able to go through four feet of water with little to zero expansion. I say little since the bullet got away.

[@truth9995]

Good to know if your ever attacked by water jugs

[@alfredb175]

Thanks

[@dougreid2351]

STOP! Don't waste those under-performing rounds, please! Please put them all over the chronograph and report each round's velocity to this eager audience. Subscribed tonight. DOUG out

[@hrfunk]

Maybe I will. I’m contemplating the purchase of a new chronograph and that might be a good way to acquaint myself with it.

[@tomhanna2714]

The Winchester Silvertip and Federal Syntec definitely need further investigation for very different reasons - the Winchester simply because it normally does so much better in other loads, and as for the Federal Syntec, it might be worth contacting Shane and/or going back to Federal one way or the other with the lot numbers as they may very well be interested in investigating that issue themselves - at the very least, I’d contact Federal before shooting any more of it. Me personally, I’ve always liked the HST .45ACP loads whether new or old no matter what pistol, and HST is also what I keep my two 9mm pistols loaded with as well.

[@hrfunk]

I think your last couple of sentences pretty much summed up my feelings. Since there are better options already on the market, I doubt that I will take too much time contacting manufacturers regarding their older/other offerings.

[@kwongyeang]

Only bright side of the terrible Federal Syntec load is now you have a dedicated batch of stoppage training load. Its even colour coded !

[@thomaspotthoff3139]

another great one.. Thank you sir!

[@18wheelsandadozen6shooters5]

Hard to beat the hst!

[@johnkirk3279]

"That bullet is gone"...My question is, where did it go?....😯

[@hrfunk]

The land of Oz?

[@ngold66]

Great video and very informative. How about the same test with Speer Gold Dot G2 +P & non +P.

[@hrfunk]

I'll see what I can come up with.

[@Ryan-xq3kl]

I like how you make acronyms for everything, if the government can do it so can we!

[@thomaswhite2802]

Excellent job but don’t give up yet on that first round of ammo it just went through 4’ of bad guys 👍

[@hrfunk]

I might have to re-test that load (after I get more jugs!).

[@thomaswhite2802]

@ a lot of hugs👍👍

[@thomaswhite2802]

@ *jugs😅

[@johnherr3579]

The hard part is getting them to line up straight.😊

[@chriss1911]

Wow, great vid.

[@hrfunk]

Thanks!

[@danbyers8462]

Great test HR!! ❤ Is that Syntec bullet "Hard cast lead" or some other type of composite? Just curious. Thanks so much for the content!!

[@hrfunk]

I don't know what alloy they use, but whatever it is it's definitely too hard.

[@johnherr3579]

​@@hrfunkYou'd think that with the synthetic coating they could use a softer alloy without leading the barrel for a defensive load.

[@wizardofahhhs759]

I've shot the Hydra Shoks into a wooden pallet and they didn't even expand, just plugged with wood. I actually dug them out and saved them, maybe I'll send them to Federal some day.😄

[@hrfunk]

I guess I’m not surprised to hear that. Hydrashoks (as the name implies) are intended to expand as a result of the hydraulic pressure exerted against the inside walls of the bullet’s hollow cavity. The post in the center of the cavity is meant to amplify that pressure. When you fire the bullet into something like wood, there’s no hydraulic pressure to facilitate expansion.

[@wizardofahhhs759]

Yeah, I kinda suspected that the reason they didn't work properly was because they weren't being used properly but didn't have proof of that.

[@algoneby]

HR can fall back on being a Hand Model.