5 Magic Rules YOU Get Wrong

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Five Magic rules that too many Magic players, including myself, seem to get wrong.
#mtg #magicthegathering #commander #edh

[@nickjoseph77]

When someone who is the monarch dies, the next player in turn order becomes the monarch, it doesn't cease to be in the game.

[@gauwal]

actually, it's the active player who become monarch, it's only the next in turn order, if the monarch was the active player (rule 716.4 if i'm not mistaken)

[@anthonydelfino6171]

I had to go verify this because a judge once mistakenly told me that if the monarch looses the game, and didn't loose due to damage from another player, the monarchy vanishes from the game... now I have to rub that in his face :P

[@velphidrow8317]

​@@gauwal that's because that's how it used to work

[@velphidrow8317]

Note that this is a change from how monarch used to work

[@Live2Play1000]

rule 722.4 @@gauwal

[@ronaldwawak2834]

“Reveal a card from the top of your library and put it into your hand” is as much “draw” as Consuming Aberration’s ability is “mill” … that’s how I always remember that one…

[@fatpad00]

Exactly. For it to trigger "when mill" effects, it needs to go from library directly to graveyard, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

[@glenhaase6817]

@@fatpad00Except not all effects that go directly from library to graveyard are mill, including Consuming Aberration. The card must actually say “mill” (in its oracle text) to interact with things like Bruvac

[@nowhere_nothing]

Or lifelink and ‘when this creature deals damage, gain that much life’. Those are also not the same.

[@ronaldwawak2834]

@@glenhaase6817 My point is that things like Consuming Aberration have the wording that puts a step in between the library and the graveyard. You won’t find a card that has the proper wording for the mill ability spelled out that does not have mill in its oracle text. Even the examples in this video have the extra “reveal” step.

[@ronaldwawak2834]

… and don’t forget to Dredge with Bruvac out if you’re a masochist…

[@mbeining11]

Commander damage without life total changing broke my brain for a sec.

[@nagsorinaste5658]

yeah, although the thing that confused me the most was that damage would be prevented by protection and therefore I thought the commander dmg would never have been dealt. At least that's what I usually thought.

[@mbeining11]

@@nagsorinaste5658 but "life totally cannot change" and "prevent damage from a source" are different, eh? So commander damage wouldn't occur if the damage is prevented, versus life total can't change

[@thekilla1234]

@@nagsorinaste5658 You are correct. He prefaced it with "this scenario here" referring to "damage can't be prevented" at 8:39, so this only leaves the "life total can't change" and he's listing things that would get around it.

[@mbeining11]

@@thekilla1234 man I love this game

[@DarthJane]

It's one of the big differences between Teferis Protection and Everybody Lives

[@PleasantKenobi]

HEADS UP: I misspoke on Bribery. I explained it all correctly up untill I look for an example of "gain control" ending, and mention Bribery again. Bribery is not a "Gain Control" effects - and thus, doesn't end, as mentioned in the video. Point 2: you can only kill with Commander Damage through protection if you use a "Damage Can't be Prevented" effect like Questing Beast.

[@raedien]

Like how was this not put in front of a judge after you literally had to make this video because you messed up the last one...

[@graham5808]

I think the bribery explanation is off. “Gain control” and “you control” effects result in returning the card, where as “under your control” effects aren’t a change of control, as you are considered the first controller of that object. This can result in the “owner” not being the “controller”. Thassa, Deep Dwelling games bring this up, and are real fun to explain.

[@rajamicitrenti1374]

Yeah, I went back and compared the text of Bribery and Reanimate, and unless there's some rule that specifically makes it different based on what zone the card came from, those two effects function identically as far as how control of the creature works. They are worded the same in that regard.

[@PleasantKenobi]

I mispoke when I used Bribery as an example. Too used to doing it. Bribery is like Reanimate - the player doesn't get it back.

[@epochsgaming]

​@@PleasantKenobithe absolute fantastic irony of you getting this wrong in a video about things everyone gets wrong. Love you PK, never change

[@orgazmo686971]

@@PleasantKenobi The short answer I give people is, 'was it under your control to start, then stolen'?

[@MakeVarahHappen]

I always think it's useful to think about the why: when control ends it goes back to the previous controller, but if it's just put into play, there is no previous controller.

[@OnePointSafety]

Almost everyone plays sphinx of the second sun wrong. You untap upkeep and draw and then it goes directly to the end step of your turn

[@velphidrow8317]

Yesss

[@Awesomesausages]

Wait... how else would it work? I'm so curious now, what do people do wrong? Do they untap/upkeep/draw after combat, or?

[@Dnallohes]

@@Awesomesausages yeah, because it starts with "at the beginning of your postcombat main phase" it is very common to attempt taking your second untap right then.

[@ethanboyd2981]

@@Awesomesausages When people play it wrong, they think they still have a second main phase. They don't realize it's essentially been replaced by another untap/upkeep/draw.

[@beerman2000]

​@@ethanboyd2981You do have a second main phase. At the start of it an effect allowing you to have another beginning phase at the beginning of your end step is created. Then your 2nd main phase takes place as usual. You don't transition to your end step (thereby triggering another beginning phase) automatically. It happens when you choose to change phases as usual

[@alexspeedwagon3701]

The proliferate ruling has 100% changed, the original reminder text for the scars of mirrodin proliferate cards distinctly refer to you only adding one kind of counter there, whereas the newer printings do not. I wouldn't fault anybody for getting this one wrong

[@lhii616]

It was updated for War of the Spark

[@eewweeppkk]

This is certainly true, but I think many people believe they can choose any number of counters on a permanent to increase (ie, I want to add a +1/+1 and a charge counter, but not an extra lifelink counter).

[@Ashmelech]

so it went from only 1 counter on target to every counter on target?

[@eewweeppkk]

@@Ashmelech Correct.

[@alexspeedwagon3701]

@@Ashmelech Yes. If a permanent had, say, charge counters and +1/+1 counters on it, you could only choose one of them to add. Now, you get to do both

[@TheBoss4711]

I cannot thank you enough for actually specifying that protection prevents damage, instead of "can't be dealt damage." Way too many videos like this just leave it at "can't" and it leads so many people to get it wrong. I'm always having to leave a comment to explain it.

[@breadgoatx]

Thanks for the clarification on the Academy Manufactor. I run an Ognis deck with an AM in it, and was under the impression that all the tokens would enter untapped. This is really good to know!

[@PleasantKenobi]

Good stuff!

[@laytonjr6601]

Skullcrack is an instant so you should play it in response to the one ring or Teferi's protection Playing Phage *as your commander* is a big flex

[@lucasharvey855]

One rule I have seen recently forgotten, is that when you take control of a creature it does gain summoning sickness. Hence why act of treason gives haste, and mind control does not.

[@connorhamilton5707]

I'd say this is the result of summoning sickness being a misnomer that has persisted due to how flavorful it is. The rule only really cares about whether you controlled the permanent since your turn began.

[@gauwal]

I feel like what you said about bribery is wrong but maybe I just misunderstand you cause what you say contradicts what you said 30 sec before So to be clear if you bribery someones ulamog, then dies, ulamog is exiled (because it's not a change of control, like yyou said just a minute before) and not back on ulamogs owners battlefield

[@DarthCinnabon]

Yeah he definitely misspoke

[@TheThreemagi]

I mean…. “800.4a When a player leaves the game, all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the game and any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end. Then, if that player controlled any objects on the stack not represented by cards, those objects cease to exist. Then, if there are any objects still controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not a state-based action. It happens as soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the game had priority at the time they left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who’s still in the game. Example: Alex casts Mind Control, an Aura that reads, “You control enchanted creature,” on Bianca’s Assault Griffin. If Alex leaves the game, so does Mind Control, and Assault Griffin reverts to Bianca’s control. If, instead, Bianca leaves the game, so does Assault Griffin, and Mind Control is put into Alex’s graveyard. Example: Alex casts Act of Treason, which reads, in part, “Gain control of target creature until end of turn,” targeting Bianca’s Runeclaw Bears. If Alex leaves the game, Act of Treason’s change-of-control effect ends and Runeclaw Bears reverts to Bianca’s control. Example: Alex casts Bribery, which reads, “Search target opponent’s library for a creature card and put that card onto the battlefield under your control. Then that player shuffles their library,” targeting Bianca. Alex puts Serra Angel onto the battlefield from Bianca’s library. If Bianca leaves the game, Serra Angel also leaves the game. If, instead, Alex leaves the game, Serra Angel is exiled. Example: Alex controls Genesis Chamber, which reads, “Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, if Genesis Chamber is untapped, that creature’s controller creates a 1/1 colorless Myr artifact creature token.” If Alex leaves the game, all such Myr tokens that entered the battlefield under Alex’s control leave the game, and all such Myr tokens that entered the battlefield under any other player’s control remain in the game.” media.wizards.com/2024/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020240308.txt The example on the right way is in the rules. In the bright side he can just make another video like this one 😂

[@gauwal]

@@TheThreemagi damn the bribery exemple is literally in the rules haha ! Didn't know that !

[@cutoverbongo2238]

When he shifted to that specific point he said it proper, then proceeded to get it mixed up. You do not keep your ulamog that gets taken by bribery

[@aduinoch]

Just a small addendum to players having protection. It's not that they can no longer have Curses or Enchant Players put on them... ALL enchantments fall off them as well.

[@qwormuli77]

And it's not hexproof or otherwise owner dependent, meaning that if the player themselves has enchanted themselves, those also go to GY.

[@thestralspirit]

Stomp and Insult are both fantastic ways to get around teferi's protection (assuming you have commander damage or poison to inflict)

[@leverposteifantomet]

I can't find any card with the name "stomp"

[@Debatra.]

@@leverposteifantomet It's the Adventure half of a Creature called Bonecrusher Giant.

[@erebos42]

You could also Call in a Professional to deal with a Teferi's Protection if you are willing to spend 1 extra mana (compared to Skullcrack) for the meme

[@spcld2k]

"if you were Born in 1981 or something..." I feel attacked.

[@beerman2000]

What about if I was born before that? Where am I supposed to go? The library?

[@drugsdelaney2907]

@@beerman2000refer to your collection of Inquest and Duelist magazines….sorry, periodicals.

[@beerman2000]

@@drugsdelaney2907 lol. Probably only exists in PDF form

[@paulknight9181]

There is a better option than gatherer!?

[@normanicole4714]

Does Gen Z not use the gatherer? Aw man getting old sucks. I give up. I think its time I finally bought those reading glasses....

[@gauwal]

just a precision, the problem with aberation is that it doesn't do the effet of mill, it reveals then put in the graveyard instead of just putting in the grave, that's why it can't be changed to mill mostly (cause it could easily say each opponents mills cards until they mill a land card) (and yeah it seems like the same but it's important for a few replacement effects I think)

[@DarthJane]

this. that is why other older cards, like Phenax God of Deception were in fact errata'd without a new printing that actually says "mill"

[@semperignotus]

So for what it is worth, you are both right and wrong. Aberation still does technically take the same action as milling. To mill is just to move a card from the library to the grave. Revealing a card in the library still has it in the library. So technically a card was milled, the player just didn’t take an action of mill x cards. The card could have just as easily had you reveal until you hit a land and then mill the revealed cards. The intention is what PK said about wanting mill to be set/determined numbers.

[@AlienValkyrie]

Yeah; you could change it to say "mills cards until they mill a land card", or you could (probably) say "reveals cards until they reveal a land card, then mills the revealed cards". Note that those two would interact differently with Bruvac; in my understanding, the former would mean "mills cards two at a time until one of those two is a land", and the latter would mean "reveals cards until they reveal a land card, then mills the revealed cards plus that many more cards".

[@velphidrow8317]

The problem is it mills an unknown amount

[@semperignotus]

The funny thing about how these cards work is that the player still effectively takes the action of milling cards, they just don’t enact the keyword itself, as it requires a set/determined number. As Aberation uses multiple verbs that means multiple actions. They first take the action of revealing cards. Then after that action is completed, they then take the action of putting cards from the top of their library into the graveyard. It’s just that instead of specifying an amount to mill, it designates “those cards,” which is the ultimate reason it isn’t literal mill.

[@bluepomegranate]

Another thing I see a lot of players get wrong is how multiple replacement effects apply to the same object. People tend to forget that it’s the player being affected or controlling the thing that’s being affected who chooses in which order the replacement effects apply, not the controller of the thing causing the replacement effect. It usually comes up specifically in the case of replacement effects that modify damage, such as Ojer Axonil and Fiery Emancipation.

[@deejayf69]

I did not know stuff that was snatched from me via Bribery/Etali effects would get exiled if that player loses the game. I thought they'd go back into my graveyard! Very helpful video. Thanks!

[@KitsuLeif]

The replacement one is actually great. A couple of days ago I saw a Slime Against Humanity deck helmed by Chatterfang, Squirrel General. Whenever my opponent cast a SAH, they got two tokens, one Ooze with the +1/+1 counters and one Squirrel, also with +1/+1 counters. That was kinda scary x'D

[@Shikogo]

The last one surprised me a lot, so I decided to look at the rulings of Academy Manufactor, and found this gem: "If you control eighteen Academy Manufactors (I don't know, you figure it out) and would create some number of Clue, Food, or Treasure tokens, you will instead create 129,140,163 times that many Clue tokens, 129,140,163 times that many Food tokens, and 129,140,163 times that many Treasure tokens." I wonder how this happened.

[@deathsmbrace]

129,140,163 is 3 to the power of 18 (387,420,489) divided by 3. Since you have 18 copies of Academy Manufactor, the amount of permanents you make scale exponentially (due to how they layer with each other).

[@Shikogo]

@@deathsmbraceOh I get why it works that way. I just wonder how a ruling about 18 Academy Manufactors happened.

[@Debatra.]

@@Shikogo They do occasionally jsut throw in some humor because it's funny. Though it is funnier to imagine that actually came up during playtesting.

[@sWirus89]

I always laugh at ruling for void winnower

[@Kaxxaa]

As a Phage player, I am well aware of the interaction with teferis protection. Still waiting for it to come up in game though

[@PleasantKenobi]

What do you use to stop the damage being prevented in Black?

[@hatimzeineddine8723]

@@PleasantKenobi get a different player to cast skullcrack I guess

[@1999matteog]

Another weird one that came up for me in deckbuilding was token adders/doublers and slime against humanity, or other effects that make 0/0 tokens with counters on them; any effect modifying token creation applies to all tokens created in the process, so if you cast a slime against humanity with doubling season and chatterfang out, you'll get 2 slime and 2 squirrels, each entering with the 2x the number of +1/+1 counters your slime against humanity would be putting on

[@williamdrum9899]

Good to know, I wasn't sure how Parallel Lives worked with Slimes

[@lordskyline9766]

For real? I thought you would make 2 0/0 slimes and then only put counters on one of the tokens, so that the other one instantly dies

[@1999matteog]

@lordskyline9766 nope! A friend had the same thought, I went to the mtg judge chat and they pointed out the rule that says any effect applying to "that" permanent applies to ALL permanents made via replacement effects!

[@laytonjr6601]

@@lordskyline9766Think of replacement effects as literally replacing the text of the spell/ability. So, "create a 0/0 slime with X +1/+1 counters on it" becomes "create a 0/0 slime and a 1/1 squirell with 2X +1/+1 counters on -it- each". Additionally, if you have Peregrin Took and cast Slimes against Humanity or incubates, the food with have +1/+1 counters on them (useful if you want to transform them into elks)

[@flaetsbnort]

@@lordskyline9766That is how it works with Amass, because in that case the effect that places counters is separate from the effect that creates the token. But with Slime it's fine

[@HienNguyenHMN]

re: Bribery & a player losing/leaving the game A good rule of thumb is: if an object changed zones, it gets exiled as that player loses (e.g., flickering from exile, bribing from library, reanimating from graveyard). Otherwise, it returns to the most previous controller.

[@MenaceLendil]

One interesting part about replacement effects and tokens is that when a token with an abillity is created that abillity is part of the tokens identity so it gets replaced. However if the token gains the abillity then the replaced token gains that abillity.

[@Juggernautohyeah]

Another example of the last one is Chatterfang and Slime Against Humanity. You will create both the 0/0 Ooze and the 1/1 squirrel because Slime's effect of just making an ooze was *replaced* with making an Ooze and a Squirrel, but the kicker is that you still follow all the instructions of the Slime spell, so both the Ooze and the Squirrel are then given X +1/+1's where X is 2 plus your Slimes in grave or exile. The same thing would apply to Peregrine Took making a food, that food would also get +1/+1 counters.

[@kieranharwood7186]

I knew the first bit but I had never thought about how Peregrine interacts with it. That's hilarious. :D

[@markmills6411]

Except only creatures can gain +1/+1 counters, right? If it was a creature (march of the machines) when it etb, then no question

[@Juggernautohyeah]

@markmills6411 Any permanent can have +1/+1 counters put on them. The Ozolith is a good example. The counters just won't be relevant until the counters are moved elsewhere or if that permanent becomes a creature by some means (think something like a vehicle as another example)

[@b_z5571]

I am a a judge and I was so hoping you’d get something super obscure that I didn’t know and you almost did. That gains control effect ending was something I got wrong in the past and only know it now because an L2 corrected me.

[@antitheta777]

I'm also a judge, and I was fully expecting one to start with "when there is a humility in play..."

[@b_z5571]

@@antitheta777 god no I learned all of that just to prove I could and then they changed it all and I had to relearn it.

[@Fierlyt]

Questing Beast commander kills through Teferi's Protection are great. It's like you hit them with a block of text so hard that Teferi is too busy reading the card to do his job. Just because you were using protection doesn't eliminate the risk of... Whatever a Questing Beast does.

[@Vex-MTG]

The most notable (to my mind) card that shows the gain control Vs control distinction is Xantcha. When she was retemplated, it was functional errata because it changes where she goes when the player controlling her gets eliminated. Under her original wording, she's return to her owner's control (generally bad) but under her new wording, she gets exiled (and can then be recast)

[@HeWhoHungers]

There's multiple similar cases to the mill situation, the more general rule of thumb is if the oracle text doesn't use the keyword, there's a reason for it, and that reason is usually, like in the case of consuming aberration, that the effect is usually in a very small way different from the keyword. A lot of people have the same reaction to card like Vines of Vastwood that doesn't quite give hexproof to a creature, because whether or not the creature can be targeted will depend on the controller of Vines of Vastwood, rather than the creature's controller, as it would if it gave the creature hexproof. Rewording cards like that to use the keyword would pretty much always require a change to the way the keyword works and Wizards doesn't like to do that unless they have to (companion) or if the rewording doesn't impact other instances of it (cascade).

[@blakevernon3418]

When you make a tapped treasure token with Academy Manufacturer, you create a tapped treasure token and untapped food and clue tokens. Pretty counterintuitive since you’d expect all three tokens to enter tapped

[@syndicate5357]

What

[@velphidrow8317]

All 3 tokens are tapped

[@PleasantKenobi]

No. You are wrong. I am sorry.

[@underscore_5450]

The mill thing really threw me off when I was putting together my Mothman deck. I noticed some old cards had been errated to say mill but others hadn't so I decided to stick to just cards with mill printed on them. I guess that was a good choice

[@_Max_Fan]

Speaking of Bribery, note that Stranglehold prevents ALL searching of libraries, not only players from searching their own. Have definitely screwed that one up before.

[@kandjar]

Thanks for pointing out the proliferate stuff, it drives me nuts to see people only proliferate one type of counters on a permanent or player :-) Another thing about Teferi’s protection people always forget coz it rarely happens: Curses and other attached auras will fall off if they are attached to the player who casts Teferi’s Pro (or The One Ring) due to the protection from everything part.

[@ElmoTheRed]

One effect I see people try to do but cannot is double replacement effect for a token. if someone has jinnie fae out that replaces tokens with cats/dogs and an academy manufactur that replaces food clue or treasure tokens when you create one of those, you cannot stack the replacement effects. You have to choose one of them.

[@thekilla1234]

This isn't true. As long as you choose the order correctly, you can get 3 cats/dogs with Academy Manufacturer and Jinnie Fay. If you replace the token with 3 tokens using Academy Manufacturer, you can then replace those 3 tokens with cats/dogs.

[@gauwal]

I mean you can tho ? if you create a food, you can either have jinnie apply first and create a dog/cat instead, then manufactor can't apply; or have manufactor apply first, then jinnie and create 3 cat/dogs instead You can chose the order as you wish (although as mentioned above, this ordering might cause one replacement effect to no longer apply)

[@donaldsherwood630]

If you mean that you can't get the 3 artifacts and a dog/cat you are correct. If you do not, then you are incorrect. Rule 616 of the CR describes how this process works. You can stack the replacement effects in this case to make the treasure in to one of each, then turn them into either 3 cats or dogs. The controller of the object being effected by the replacement gets to determine the order they resolve.

[@ElmoTheRed]

@@gauwal I have been told by a judge you cannot have two replacement effects for the same item. You have to replace with the 3 artifacts or 1 cat/dog.

[@ElmoTheRed]

@@thekilla1234 a judge told me this is incorrect as the manufacturer is not creating the tokens it is replacing them so Jennie fae will not trigger on the academy manufactur replacement effect.

[@wildcardalbedo]

Thank you for this video, this confirms that the Bruvac mill player in my playgroup absolutely does cheat to get around Teferi's Protection and The One Ring. He's been claiming for a while now that the effects of targeted mill get around cards that give protection from everything since they don't do damage, and a lot of people have removed those two cards from their decks since they believe him to be correct.

[@PleasantKenobi]

Nope. You cannot target someone with protection from the type of targeting thing.

[@harrisonheppelmann7938]

As someone who plays skullcrack, one additional amendment on the protection from everything, specifically from teferi’s protection: They still don’t lose the life from the damage, but commander damage still kills them as a state based check similar to infect

[@frozentyphoon2049]

The worst part is trying to explain these to someone that doesn't get it. And assumes they're right when they aren't

[@Ashmelech]

Another rule that is uncommon is +1/+1 counter and -1/-1 counter negation happens after a toughness check, so undying creatures with a +1 counter on it killed with a lump of -1 counters does not come back with undying

[@Thewallace7347]

I didnt realize the templeting of mill was a problem, but the other stuff i did. I feel like everyone at one point questions one of the ways manufactur works either the the one you pointed out or how multiple copies effect each other

[@bradleyemery]

The thing that messes me up is that proliferate was changed in.. I think WAR, and I still thought it was the old version as recently as last year

[@anthonydelfino6171]

Actually this would have been the rule since the beginning. I just looked up Plaguemaw Beast's original Mirrodin Besieged printing, and the reminder text for proliferate even back then states you give the permanent or player another counter of each kind already there. The reminder text is identical to what was printed on Grateful Apparition from War of the Spark and on Atomize in Fallout.

[@bradleyemery]

Hi, Anthony. I wouldn't normally keep replying, I know no one is going to see this exchange so far down in the comments, but I want to stress that that simply isn't true. The reminder text on Plaguemaw Beast is "You choose any number of permanents and/or players with counters on the, then give each another counter of *a* kind already there." (emphasis added). The change in WAR ("Choose any number of permanents and/or players, then give each another counter of *each* kind already there" (emphasis added)) is exactly what my point was, and the reason that some people get it wrong

[@anthonydelfino6171]

@@bradleyemery you’re right and I realized after I commented. The difference is so subtle I missed it

[@Morrodin182]

@@bradleyemery You are wrong!... not about the actual rules text but about no one seeing this exchange so far down in the comments :P

[@MakeVarahHappen]

You could have it reveal and then have it say "mill that many cards" or "mill a card for each card revealed that way."

[@DorkRitualofficial]

Thanks for the head's up on Magali's kickstarter! I already have a hand-signed Liliana, Waker of the Dead playmat, and I'm hoping I can get my hands on that Narset, Parter of Veils one, too, for those EXTRA long permission games. Enjoy your content, my friend. Kudos!

[@gerrador0]

On the note of Academy Manufactor, for a similar reason it is far worse in Brenard than people expect it to be. While Manufactor's replacement effect respects conditions like "enters the battlefield tapped" or "sacrifice this permanent at the end of turn" it does not maintain the Golem creature status of the original token, instead creating one noncreature Food, Clue, and Treasure. This is because Manufactor doesn't make a Clue and Treasure in addition to any Food produced, it replaces the production of a Food Golem with a Food, Clue, and Treasure token as defined by the default characteristics of those three tokens.

[@PleasantKenobi]

Yep. Learnt this the hard and disappointing way.

[@draftmagicagain1000]

Lol

[@PinkReaper1]

The academy manufacturer ruling is also how cards like Chatterfang work. If you make a tapped treasure token with Chatterfang out you also make a tapped Squirrel token.

[@willfinan7210]

The Bribery section is wrong: "If you Bribery someone's Ulamog, and then [you lose the game], they get the Ulamog back." This is not true. The Ulamog will be exiled. From 800.4a: "Example: Alex casts Bribery, which reads, “Search target opponent’s library for a creature card and put that card onto the battlefield under your control. Then that player shuffles their library,” targeting Bianca. Alex puts Serra Angel onto the battlefield from Bianca’s library. If Bianca leaves the game, Serra Angel also leaves the game. If, instead, Alex leaves the game, Serra Angel is exiled."

[@JediMB]

"reveal cards from the top of your library until [X], then mill those cards" should work fine as a new wording for those cards, but there might be balance reasons for them to not go with that. Anyway, that's the one point on this list I suppose I wasn't aware of, since it hasn't been relevant to me personally. For Proliferate, it's worth keeping in mind that it used to be limited to one counter per game object, but got a side-grade (usually upgrade) when brought back for War of the Spark. That can certainly cause some confusion among players who are used to the old rules, or who happen to read the reminder text on the old cards.

[@velphidrow8317]

The issue is that creates an unknown number and such Bruvac wants you to mill twice an unknown amount

[@JediMB]

@@velphidrow8317 In that case, the number would be determined when you're done revealing cards. But it does create weird extra steps where you'll have to count the number of cards you've revealed and then count to that many again for the extra mill, so we might just be better off the way it is.

[@T_Peazy]

Someone woke up and chose violence today. Good video.

[@lostmarble540]

Apparently you can't use deathrite shaman's ability to pay for a propaganda effect. Learned this from a video by FishMTG about mana abilities: deathrite's ability targets a card in a graveyard, therefore it's not a mana ability and it uses the stack, and you don't get priority during the declare attackers step.

[@williamdrum9899]

This is correct, you cannot use it to pay for that since a bona fide mana ability cannot have a target

[@seandun7083]

I assume Consuming Aberration hasn't been erratad because it was worded that way to not have the same issue as Helm of Obedience which has been erratad and goes infinite with Rest in Peace.

[@Awesomesausages]

Cases where I haven't made the mentioned mistakes, are due to them not having come up, hahah. People getting murdered has definitely lead to "rules violations", that's almost impossible to get right every time. On Proliferation: note that this used to work differently, where for each targeted entity, you picked *one counter* to Proliferate instead of every counter said entity has. This change was as recent as War of the Spark! (which was... almost five years ago. We are old).

[@ObsidianG]

8:37 Cast Skullcrack targeting yourself then swing for lethal. "If you're not willing to shell your own position, you're not willing to win." Maxim 20, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

[@skourch.]

Another note on replacement effects, that rule includes if something would enter with +1/+1 counters. So a good example is Slime Against Humanity interacting with Chatterfang, where the squirrels would get +1/+1 counters. Or Jinnie Fay, which would let you make big haste cats instead.

[@kieranharwood7186]

I first got my head around the replacement effect rule with Nacatl War Pride. It makes tapped and attacking tokens that exile at end of turn. If you have doubling season, you get twice as many tokens, they're all tapped, they're all attacking and they all exile at end of turn. However, if you copy the tokens with Rhys, the Redeemed, his copies are untapped, not attacking and don't exile at end of turn.

[@felixp535]

You can just proliferate poison counters on an opponent that's under Teferi's Protection

[@toewoe]

Almost ever card that directly says "put ___ cards into graveyard" has been errataed to mill. Consuming abberation isnt doing that, its not because its old, its because it reveals and then dumps it, which isnt quite milling. Its a different effect, barely, but it is

[@Drakshl]

On the replacement effect thing, judt imagine the biy bring replaced is in brackets and you swap it out for the replacement text on the other card, non of the other text changes

[@trumpets101]

As a semi-newer player since 2018, I’ve heard the term of “grind” (much like the namesake from Mind Grind) be used to distinguish between it and mill. Consuming Abberation’s effect is a grind, whereas putting from library to grave for a set amount is mill as has been keyworded. Also, on the topic of replacement effects, depending on the type of replacement effects in play, depends on who gets to choose the order of effects. Let’s say there is a Furnace of Rath and Ojer Axonil and in play and someone decides to deal 1 damage to your face. The player doing the damage DOES NOT get to choose the optimal outcome of increasing damage to Ojer Axonil’s power (likely 4) and then doubling it via Furnace of Rath. The player receiving the damage gets to choose, in which case they would likely choose the least amount (1 doubling to 2 and then buffing to 4 since it’s still less than Axonil’s power). Wild and crazy, I know.

[@aldotrioksidi]

I got all of these correct. I find it fun to delve into the rules of the game and when I first made my saga deck, when the new Theros was new, before Kaldheim came and gave the first playable green sagas, I had fun with the deck, proliferating and removing the counters from them. The fun thing with sagas is that if you can remove lore counters from them at instant speed, like with Hex Parasite or Clockspinning, you can remove a counter when the last ability of a saga is put into the stack and you won't have to sacrifice the saga when the trigger leaves the stack.

[@liquidfiretibby]

arberation makes you reveal first, it never milled

[@jclrbjr]

People often get propaganda and ghostly prison effects wrong also. You do not have to pay for any creatures coming into play attacking. Take nactal war pride , it creates copies of itself for EVERY creature the opponent has that is being attacked by him. So if someone has a ridiculous amount of creatures on board with propaganda on his side the attacker only pays 2 for the the attack. The key words to remember are attacks and attacking. Attacks are done during declare attack phase and attacking occurs after attacking creatures have been declared and before declare blockers phase.

[@lozangekitten-gamer7626]

I had a feeling the tapped aspect would still apply to the token replacement mentioned in the video, but I didn't know to what extent

[@ich3730]

3:00 A rule of thumb to keep that in mind for me was to imagine the keyword mill as "literally just mill". If we look at aberation again, it does NOT do that. It makes you reveal cards and then put them in the yard, which is not "literally just mill".

[@aqwannos]

would need to be reworded along the lines of "Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a land, then mill X where X is the number of cards revealed this way." Which is definitely clunkier than it is now.

[@JediMB]

Honestly, this is Parallel Lives effects and the "create" action all over again, but at least it's a bit more intuitive this time around as the ruling doesn't actively contradict the original wording of the cards.

[@soleo2783]

​@@aqwannos Wouldn't "Mill cards until they mill a land" work?

[@aqwannos]

@@soleo2783 that wording has more interaction implications, just like how cascade can trigger "one or more cards exiled" effects multiple times. Trying to have the cards milled simultaneously is closer to the original effect of the card. Ps: "then mill the cards revealed this way" may also be a potential wording, but I am less sure of the rule implications of such a statement

[@soleo2783]

@@aqwannos Well yeah, but the same is true for "mill X where X is the number of cards revealed this way". Anything with the word mill would work this way. Also, isn't it having different interaction implications the point of making it mill anyway?

[@flaetsbnort]

The funniest thing about Academy Manufacturer is that it only looks for the type and it's not a 'may' ability, so if, for instance, you try to create a token copy of Gingerbrute, it's a token and it's a Food, so you have to replace it and only create a regular Food token (as well as the other ones).

[@clovergannon]

I swear, proliferate has been changed, and you used to be able to be selective with which counters you proliferated on the permanent or player, and didn't just have to do all of them.

[@TheHarmpo]

in Arena you can still pick and choose, no?

[@fisher6663]

I think it changed in war of the spark

[@ThanderTheGoblin]

​@TheHarmpo You can still pick which permanent you can proliferate, but you cant pick which counters on said permanent you proliferate. So if someone has poison and experience counters when you proliferate, they get one of each, as opposed to before when you could chose which counter to proliferate.

[@TheHarmpo]

@@ThanderTheGoblin Gotchaaa, thanks for clarifying

[@brad_soup]

Correct, you used to choose one type of counter to proliferate per chosen permanent, but that has since been changed to proliferate *every* counter on each chosen permanent.

[@hero_kage]

Makes Rules mistake in Upgrade Guide. Then makes extra Videos of Magic Rules people get wrong. Someone knows how KZbin works 😎 But hey there is so many weird Rules interactions that I know I've gotten wrong it is always interesting to see if I know or do not know these weird interactions myself.

[@Cocytus127]

If you cast Teferi’s Protection and then a Stasis is played or something else that skips your untap step, your permanents will not phase back in as phasing is part of the untap step. You will have to wait until you have an untap step again in order for your stuff to phase back in.

[@zaphodbeebs2486]

Thanks for specifying the nuka-cola machine and academy manufactor. 😊 🎉

[@shimmergloom5966]

I've got some of these wrong in the past. And I'm one of the judges that helped you confirm these rules😂

[@BrainSlug91]

Pls do a whole video on Academy Manufactor! combining that lil guy with Altar of the Brood is my new favourite way to make friends at commander night.

[@TapSangBong]

ha, i also have a fun 60card deck with those combo cards. Add Time Sieve and your opponents won't see another turn

[@iexplodonateri7378]

"You've got three days to go!" *looks at when the video was made* Three days ago. Thanks for the late recommendation, KZbin.

[@theelucidator3481]

8:12 Teferi’s protection also says life total can’t change which is not the same as preventing damage (check the platinum emperion rulings). You can kill someone with commander damage (because their life total doesn’t change) with a questing beast but not with combat damage

[@PatJamma]

Also worth noting with Teferi's Protection, while the cards in your hand do not go anywhere, all of your mana producing permanents have phased out. So unless you are packing Elvish/Simian Spirit Guide or similar, you aren't casting any spells. One I see come up often outside of Commander, is copy effects. In general, but specifically Fable of the Mirror Breaker in Pioneer. If you use the transformed side to copy an animated non-creature permanent (a creature land, a vehicle, etc) you will make a copy, but that copy will not be animated because the fact that you payed mana into a creature land or crewed a vehicle is not a copyable value

[@anthonydelfino6171]

Theoretically, your Horizon Stone and original Omnath should retain any colorless and green mana in your mana pool respectively as well to cast spells with. Though unless you're casting green or colorless instants, or you cast some spell with unspent mana from your mana pool after the protection, you won't have a way to cast spells as though they had flash.

[@seandun7083]

​@@anthonydelfino6171unfortunately they will have phased out as well meaning you will lose that mana at the end of the step or phase.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

@@seandun7083 oh I guess that's right... yeah, I was thinking since they never leave the battlefield you're safe, but they stop it from emptying every phase change, and they don't exist as object in play... though you still would have access to that mana between the time you cast protection and the next phase change

[@williamdrum9899]

Kind of like what happens when you Darksteel Mutation someone's commander and then play Copy Artifact as a clone of it. You don't get the 0/1 insect, you get the commander as it's printed. Even if it's not an artifact creature.

[@mn6334]

​​@@williamdrum9899​My favorite form of this is Imprisoned in the Moon/Song of thr Dryads and Thespian's Stage/Vesuva

[@ThePhantomphan11]

Yes! More like this please! There are so many little interactions like these that I'm sure I get wrong and never know it. That's the fun it magic, how deep it goes. Thanks I look forward to more!

[@mleet3125]

I thought if Phage's damage was prevented it dealt 0 damage, and thus the lose the game effect wouldn't happen...

[@lijahh1846]

My meta was heavy with Teferi's Protection for a while, and the Questing Beast that I slotted into my Infect deck caused SO MANY judge calls. I was about ready to print out flashcards with Comp Rules on them just to keep in my deck box. Usually by the time I pulled out Comp Rules numbers (702.16, 101.2, and 702.90b if anyone was curious), they would just concede. Anymore, I really only pull this deck out when someone needs to be humbled.

[@christianbarrett3040]

With consuming aberration because the cards are revealed first it technically isn't mill and won't be changed to mill. The existence of an extra step, in this case revealing, changes the function. They would instead have to change it to say "Whenever you cast a spell, each opponent mills the top card of their library until they mill a land card".

[@RaisingJackal]

Thank you for the update on the Kickstarter. Wouldn't have noticed only 3 days left. Lol

[@jessefriend5950]

feeling very called out for being a person born in 1981 who uses gatherer rather than scryfall lol

[@Xorthis]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but did you suggest that infect still applies poison counters through protection? To apply poison counters, the damage must be delt. The way infect works is instead of reducing the life of a player by the number of the damage delt, it applies poison counters equal to the damage delt. The important thing is, that damage must be delt. And with protection, damage cannot be delt. In essence, it's a replacement effect. There's a ruling on infect's rule (702.90) that states "If damage from a source with infect that would be dealt to a player is prevented, that player doesn't get poison counters. If damage from a source with infect that would be dealt to a creature is prevented, that creature doesn't get -1/-1 counters." Now, a player can still gain poison counters if an effect says so, (assuming it isn't a targeted ability) but not through infect dealing damage. Maybe this is what you meant...? I also thought you'd made a mistake with Phage, but then I heard you speed through 'and you've stopped damage prevention'. Well, yes. Of course phage still triggers if damage can't be prevented...

[@Mark-sz5rh]

Thanks for clarifying, especially where you make additional tokens that are tapped if the original (the token that kickstarts the effect) is tapped.

[@camfunme]

Potential Consuming Abberation errata: "Whenever you cast a spell, each opponent mills until they mill a land card."

[@redblackdg]

This will cause a few complications and may end uo with a TRUE INFINITE. Some one plays Rest in Peace. You would keep milling until you hit a land. A land would never hit your graveyard because of Rest in Peace. Helm of Obediance and Rest in Peace combo. I said true infinite above but I guess not because the Helm and Rip combo doesnt go TRUE INFINITE

[@isaiahwelch8066]

For clarification, "protection" used to read, as one of the things protection does, "reduce all damage to 0." Now, "protection" reads, "prevent all damage." I know that it might not matter, but in Commander it does, because if damage is prevented, Commander damage never happens -- and neither does Infect damage, which results in Poison Counters. Additionally, if there is a mass mill effect that doesn't target, a player protected via Teferi's Protection can still be milled out. The same reasoning is also true for Etali, Primal Storm, as a player under the effect of Teferi's Protection still reveals the top card of their library, and the Etali player can still cast that spell, since giving a player protection is not the same as a library having hexproof or shroud.

[@MysticAce39]

One of the coolest moments I’ve done is wind falling, and with that on the stack teferis protection. Got a whole brand new hand and drew into rise of the second sun for the second time to win the game when I phased back in. But knowing I could still draw cards and such event though I had protection was good knowledge.

[@thejackscraft3472]

that must have felt great, and makes me realize that you could even cast spells after, if you floated mana before your stuff phased out.

[@Cnvvj]

Mate in my pod plays Phage in his Henzi Toolbox deck. If it's not Phage or Yargle&Multani being blitzed out at you, it's Tree of Perdition.

[@dyne313]

I have a Phage Commander deck. Thanks for the respect Mr. Kenobi.

[@thejackscraft3472]

Who's the commander? since Phage doesn't do anything good if they are.

[@dyne313]

@@thejackscraft3472 Phage is the commander. Torpor Orb, Command Beacon, Netherborn Altar, Sundial of the Infinite. There are more than enough ways to get your commander into your hand or stop the trigger.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@dyne313 Fair. that's sounds like a really interesting deck.

[@dyne313]

@@thejackscraft3472 Yeah. It's a lot of mono black good stuff, with a package of cards to get your commander on the battlefield.

[@Pucknuckle]

I cant help but notice that the original Millstone says "Take the top two cards from target player's library and put them in target player's graveyard." It doesn't say anywhere that those two target players have to be the same person...

[@TobyBW]

Craziest rules interaction for when a player leaves the game I've seen is Out of Time. When the player controlling the Out of Time leaves the game, everyone gets their permanents back. But if Out of Time *itself* is phased out, then everyone's stuff is phased out forever.

[@sarahbuck2506]

Checked with an L2 on this. When a player leaves the game, Out of Time's effect will end regardless of whether it was phased out at the time.

[@TobyBW]

@@sarahbuck2506 I've checked with the rules manager and you don't actually get the stuff back.

[@uncleweirdbeard86]

There are lots of rulings like this in Magic that many players get wrong. YuGiOh players are often known for not reading the cards, Magic players are often known for not reading the rulings. So its great to have a judge to hang with to help your playgroup learn the latest ruling changes as they happen more often than most players realize. The only problem with that is if they are part of your playgroup, you have to be able to trust them not to state false rulings just so they can get the outcome they desire. Also its worth noting that just because someone is a judge doesnt mean they know all the rulings. I have known players that cheated during the test just so they can get certified and get judge stuff at locals or so they can use their certification to make rulings that favor them. This is why there are different levels for judges

[@Temzilla2]

3:47 The card that came up in my playgroup when we were like "wait is this mill?" and what was frustrating about how the Mothman is worded was See the Unwritten. It very clearly takes cards from the top of your library and puts them into your graveyard, no exiling, etc. They would count if Mothman said something more like "when one or more nonlands go into the graveyard from the library", but because mothman specifies mill, it doesn't count. I think that "becomes milled" being short for a card going to the graveyard from the library, similair to how "dies" is short for a card going from the battlefield to the graveyard could be interesting, but things like Bruvac could be very confusing. 4:50 I was incredibly surprised how basically everyone I watched playing the precons, from cedh guys to casuals all got this one wrong identically. 8:59 I was in a situation in a game where I was against a zur deck that prevented all damage against him, as well as preventing his life total from changing somehow, can't remember the exact boardstate. I got my commander up to 21+ power and cast Stomp on my own commander and killed with commander damage. 11:36 also probably something that is only relevant to exactly Marneus Calgar, you make all three tokens simultaneously, and it doesn't change *how* you make them. I.e. you make 7 treasures, 1 marneus trigger vs you investigate 7 times, 7 marneus triggers. Whether that 7 treasure ability is making 7 treasure/food/clue because of a manufactor, or 14 treasures because of an Anointed Procession, it doesn't matter, it's still 1 marneus trigger.

[@exarkun42]

I once knocked out a player in EDH through their Teferi's Protection using the ultimate from Nicol Bolas, Dragon God. I targeted their commander with a removal spell. The respond with TefProt. I allow to resolve, then activate the ultimate, because a permanent that is phased out is considered to not exist in that moment. Probably one of the gnarliest kills I have ever scored in MTG

[@josephwodarczyk977]

Good sir, you have beaten me. I was so smug going into this, but I had no idea how losing the game worked. Well done. Suggestions: when you create a token, "create" is a keyword in that situation. Volo makes tokens, but he doesn't say create. He just copies spells. So he doesn't work with doubling season. Stealing a creature resets summoning sickness. A creature has to have been continuously under a single player's control since the start of the turn for it to tap.

[@aldotrioksidi]

There's still people under the assumption that Doubling Season modifies the amount of counters you put on a planeswalker when you use its + abilities. Pir and Kaldheim Vorinclex work in that sense, but Doubling Season only affects the counters the walkers enter with, unless there's some other effect that modifies the walker's abilities, such as Lae'zel also on the battlefield at the same time.

[@mydadgaveupopcorn]

Mill has nothing to do with a set number or not. The cards showed to not be "mill" had the words "reveal" in them the cards are not hidden information. Mill doesn't reveal the cards first. It just moves them from the top of the library to the graveyard.

[@PleasantKenobi]

No shit. However all of the cards with a set number got updated. I was explaining a good short hand for understanding what got the eratta, and what didn't.

[@haxalicious]

Doubling season doesn't double the loyalty counters put on planeswalkers by loyalty abilities, only the initial counters they enter with. However, Kaldheim Vorinclex does due to different wording.

[@frankvaldivia9643]

Arena is a really good way to learn these rules as it has all of them within it. For example, the Jinnie Faye creature tokens come into play tapped off of Gala Greeters since they specifically make a tapped token.

[@krisbrooker1065]

I love phage in EDH. I started playing her in my Madness deck when rise of the dark realms was getting out of hand in my pod (mostly 1player). He would cast rise and begin laughing, I would then tap Anje, drop Phage in to my GY in response and the rest of us would start laughing. After 3 straight losses like this that guy started playing other decks more often. Since then Phage has found her way in to more than a few of my decks just to have an unexpected and versatile bomb.

[@mn6334]

First time I ever had a Phage on the battlefield in a game of commander was when playing an old Virtus/Gorm deck I had. I flipped it off an opponents Warp World 😂

[@reytal496]

Firstly you forgot fortifications when talking about protection wich is an outrageous attack on the best and most wildly known mechanic And secondly In my opinion the most interesting thing about academy manufacturer is its interaction with Brenard ginger sculpter the academy manufacturer ability will replace the food copy with just a regular food treasure and clue making it a Terrible include In the deck

[@flaetsbnort]

"Enchanted" is outdated wording anyway. A more modern way to say it would be "attached", since it covers enchantments, fortifications and equipment. But I wouldn't want to change the mnemonic to what, Dab T?

[@timbojimbo5898]

Milling is defined as an instance where a player is compelled due to the text of a card to put cards from the top of the deck into their graveyard. Any card that does this is creating a milling effect. The word shouldn't have to be directly stated if the card in question is functioning precisely in that manner. This is where semantics fail, and lawyers thrive. I'll never agree with it. It's the kind of logic used by players that just want to win no matter what, regardless if the lawyering actually makes sense or not.

[@BasisFazer]

Beside he proliferate ruling, I am sure all the other rules interactions here have been misplayed by me and my pods at some point or another. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for those cases next time I play if they come up at all.

[@waffleman2211]

I definitely got some of these wrong when I started playing years and years ago, but the person who really got me to play seriously in high school was a judge. I've never played mill, so I've never really run into that interaction before. When including a card or mechanic, I go way, easy out of my way to research them and their interactions. I trust people I play with to not fuck up their mechanics if it isn't one I'm familiar with. So the Teferi's thing, I did know, the replacement effects I knew, mill I had no idea, the Bribery interactions is one I've had to fight other people on, gaining control and what happens when someone dies. And the proliferate I definitely knew, I've never seen anyone try to proliferate only one kind of counter before, so it's never come up that I can remember, but yeah

[@TheDarkElder]

An easy fix for "Consume Aberration" would be to change the rules text (second part) to "each opponent mills cards until they would mill a land card. That player then puts that land card back on top of their library." --- with "would mill" it is the same as "would enter the battlefield" - it does not happen if the condition is not met.

[@seandun7083]

Three problem is it puts all the cards in the graveyard at once which is a relevant difference for the sake of cards like Devourer of Memory. The other problem is that it seems like using mill would give it a similar issue to Helm of Obediance which has been erratad to say mill and combos with Rest in Peace.

[@TheDarkElder]

Good point. Well, not every card can combo/work with every other card working comparable mechanics. So perhaps errata the Consume Aberration to read like Helm of Obedience: Mill a card, then repeat until a land would be milled. Put that card on top of the lib instead. Or just leave Consume Aberration as it is, so it will not trigger any mill-related abilities.

[@seandun7083]

@@TheDarkElder I think you could do it by saying "reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a land card, then mill that many cards", but at that point you aren't really saving any space by changing it.