3 Magic Rules You Might Be Getting Wrong

[@edhdeckbuilding]

i will clarify that obviously you can respond to your opponents casting an elesh norn, as with any spell that is cast (except split second). i gave the specific example of chord of calling because if it resolves you have no opportunity to respond to what your opponent is getting with it.

[@chrisgebben2043]

to further clarify you can respond to the Chord of Calling but there's no way to know what they are gonna get its already too late when you see what they get. like if you respone with a containment priest when chord is on the stack they just get a creature you don't need at all

[@joesmith6226]

Much like a clone. In fact clones would be a great inclusion if you chose to do another of these videos. They don't follow a lot of the common lines of creature cards. On the stack they are what they are but they resolve as something else, are hard to respond to, and are a "targeted ability" that doesn't actually target so get around hexproof and shroud. For a grouping I'd suggest Clones, Phasing, and a brief intro into either priority or moving to combat. A lot of newer players get a lot of those things wrong. if you'd like to focus on cards instead of phases perhaps you could go into the difference between flickering an Oblivion Ring with it's ability on the stack and flickering a Banisher Priest with it's ability on the stack. A lot of players don't understand why they are different.

[@randybellwood1778]

Copying spells is very confusing to many players. There are some spells that copy other spells and some spells that cast copies of other spells and storm decks can be a nightmare to resolve correctly.

[@bobbyfartz5591]

So for the tokens, you said that they "Cease to exist" once in the graveyard. Would they be seen leaving the graveyard though, like with Tormod or Quintorius?

[@RyanTraher]

@@joesmith6226 just discovered this channel and would love a video on this! It sounds ridiculously complicated and fascinating.

[@Jiiinxyyy]

Do you think you could make a video explaining the stack and priority for newer players? You have a good way of explaining things

[@BananaNationTV]

Easiest way to understand the stack is to literally stack the cards with their effects on the board. Trigger from a creature, someone responds literally put that card on top of the effected card. Build a physical stack of cards. Then start resolving from the top down

[@edhdeckbuilding]

it's an imaginary place that all spells and effects got to before they resolve, stacking on top of each other. that's the simplest way i can explain it.

[@JK-gm3ej]

@@BananaNationTV this is a really good way to work through a complex stack. Always take a pack of post-it notes and a pen to a game for when you have multiple triggered out activated abilities from the same card, though 😉

[@Fausto_4841]

Playing on Arena helped me a lot with the stack. Now when I play paper I imagine the stack like it would be done on Arena. Sometimes I'll even use tokens or the card that's putting something on the stack as a visual trying to recreate the stack to look more like Arena

[@HoundofDarkness]

@@edhdeckbuilding as someone coming from Yu-Gi-Oh this sounds wonderful.

[@NotAllWhoWanderAreLost641]

Is it weird that this might have been my favorite video of yours so far? Great brisk, clear explanation that makes me more comfortable now to play magic

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

If you enjoy videos discussing Magic rules, check out my Tough Rules & Cool Interactions series. Let me know what you think of the videos. I put a lot of effort into trying to explain complex game rules and be clear.

[@burningpapersun1]

Yeah when I came back to magic and my friend started playing for the first time, there was a lot of back and forth of how things work. He played pokemon when he was younger and some of magics rulings were hard for him to understand because of how cards were worded.

[@RebelliousTeddy]

Dude, thank you so much for explaining these interactions

[@charliemarlow647]

Great video! If you're looking to do some more of these in the future, some topics that could be good are: a detailed look at interaction points (i.e. all moments when you could/couldn't use an instant), and an explaination of layers.

[@landphil7535]

Additionally, Morph does not use the stack. So you can "Willbender" a "Krosan Grip".

[@N1ghthavvk]

The technical explanation is that turning a permanent face-up is a "special action" that results in a triggered ability being created (both of which can be done even when a Split Second card is on the stack).

[@rejected1s]

@@N1ghthavvk Took my brain a minute to figure it out the first time I learned about this, but the reason why it's considered a special action and not the usual player response is so that players can't go "Oh, I see you're paying two green mana to turn that face up. Let me go and check which possible cards that could be." Morph and the like really wouldn't work otherwise.

[@andrewp979]

@@rejected1s mainly it would REALLY suck if you pay the cost to turn a morph face up and your respondent could respond with shock and kill it.

[@steveme6664]

@@andrewp979 but I didn’t think they could respond to you tapping for mana, because mana abilities don’t go on the stack?

[@Ceracio]

@@steveme6664 True, but if it were an activated ability they could respond to the ability itself and Shock the morph before it gets turned face-up.

[@BDi321]

If you use Carrionette and your opponent pays the (2), Carrionette is not exiled because paying that mana counters the ability and exiling Carrionette is part of the ability, so you don't have to hold priority and activate it again or anything like that. You can just activate it again after the first one resolves.

[@christianarenas7839]

More videos like these please! The examples really help understanding the rulings.

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

If you're interested in videos like this one that he made, I have a series called Tough Rules & Cool Interactions which is dedicated to explaining Magic rules and detailing how certain cards interact with each other. If you do check it out, please give me some feedback on the series, let me know what you like and dislike about the videos.

[@floriankaeder]

The explanation of the differences between static, triggered and activated ability was really helpful, thx

[@awbeanzz]

Always appreciate rules vids. I consider myself an intermediate player, been playing for a few years. Newer players always need simple and easy to understand content to help explain how the game functions ☺️

[@matthewmccreight9854]

im glad to see that someone took the time to make a video for this. it is in the rules, but the rules are pretty extensive. 273 pages last time i looked for anything specific. most people im sure dont take the time to learn them or read them. i played a morph control deck for a long time, it used cards with split second so understanding a great depth of the rules was necessary to even begin adequately constructing the deck, let alone piloting it. great job here.

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

The rules of Magic are crazy. That's why I have an entire series of videos dedicated to how cards interact with each other. I've even made some videos covering some of the things you mentioned here. It's great that you're making a video like this to help bring better awareness to these deeper aspects of the game. These situations don't always come up but when they do it's nice that there are some comprehensive rules that tell us exactly how to resolve the situation.

[@digitalworldsvr7881]

Great videos, that's a lot of stuff to learn.

[@craig1287]

Just watched episode 26, that one is crazy tough. They're so similar. Going to watch more and subscribe. I love this stuff. I hope Demo does more so I can watch them as well as your videos.

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

@@craig1287 Yes, that one is surprisingly one of the more wild ones. It's crazy how close wordings can be on cards but still give different results. I do not envy the people working at WotC that are in charge of making this game work in all the languages the game is available in. That cannot be an easy task.

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

@@digitalworldsvr7881 Thanks! Glad you're liking the stuff.

[@TheDarkZoren]

another fun rule is that when Extiction Event is cast it is upon resolution the caster then declares odd or even meaning the only time the oppent can respond the spell is before knowing what mana value is declared.

[@davidchesterton4033]

Fun tidbit about the "dies" keyword is that it also applies to planeswalkers too not just creatures. Thought there is only like one card I can think of that actually cares about that. Kayas ghostform

[@OckyFlam]

It actually applies to non ceature non planeswalker permanents too. If you have a solemn simulacrum turned into a non ceature enchantment token and that token enchantment gets destroyed that counts as "dies" for the purposes of solemn simulacrum. They just don't print it on cards that don't refer to creatures cos it sounds silly.

[@crazypatchy1]

For that Elesh norn, cord of calling example theoretically you could respond to the cord of calling cast, but the issue would be you don't know what creature is being picked to know to react ? Since the caster doesn't need to reveal the creature till it's in play, so by then that static -2-2 has already killed your tribe elder

[@Karonar]

Correct.

[@Felixr2]

And if you do preemptively sacrifice all your 1/1 tokens or your tribe elder, guess what? Your opponent just doesn't choose Elesh Norn.

[@Xerxaxify]

Great Video! I had the situation last night with Cursed Mirror. My friend group thought it didn't get you a "enter the battlefield" trigger.

[@georgiihans]

One that I see tripping people up is choosing targets. The choices are made when the object (in this case a spell or ability that targets) is put on the stack. If your Sheoldred's trigger is already on the stack, it's too late to sac something and try to bring it back...

[@LucasTheDrgn]

And the other side of that, with shortcutting and such it's sometimes hard to remember what order things actually happen in, but things like using a blink spell to blink an archaeomancer, the spell goes to the graveyard *before* you even put the archaeomancer's ability on the stack, so you *can* target the blink spell that's already in your graveyard. There's also the case of spells that don't have you make choices until they resolve, and the "double gotcha" where people announce the choices as they're casting them ("Casting Cabal Therapy, naming Lightning Bolt") and then people respond ("In response I bolt your face") and then the first player chooses something else on resolution ("Then I'm naming Ponder instead"). I think Judging FTW has a video on what a ruling in such a case should look like, but I can't remember the specifics at the time, I just know it's Quite Awkward of a situation to be in, and it's good to be very aware of when exactly you have to announce choices and targets, sometimes very precisely.

[@georgiihans]

@@LucasTheDrgn, that's a good point. I guess while the blink spell is resolving, the abilities triggered by it are waiting to be put on the stack until after it finishes, at which point the target are chosen? Magic is so hard... it's easy to get lost during the game 😄

[@Felixr2]

@@georgiihans Exactly, triggered abilities don't enter the stack until a player recieves priority. The order is: - Cast a blink spell - Resolves (blink Archaeomancer, triggering its ETB as a result) - The blink spell goes to the graveyard - State based actions are checked (if your Archaeomancer dies here, the trigger still happens) - Archaeomancer's trigger goes on the stack. You choose a target for it now. - Resolves

[@georgiihans]

@@Felixr2 which also means if you have a trigger from the spell being cast, it will go on the stack before the spell resolves, because priority is passed around then. Also I guess if abilities from multiple players are triggered during resolution, they will be put on the stack in turn order and each player will chose the targets knowing what the others chose. I wonder how many time we played wrong during games and no one noticed...

[@Felixr2]

@@georgiihans Yes, on cast/copy triggers like Magecraft happen before the triggering spell or ability resolves. And as a general rule, simultaneous triggers are put on the stack in APNAP order (each player may freely choose in which order their own triggers happen). This order *must be established* before any responses can be made.

[@justinayran]

Great vid! Other things that you might want to explain: 1. Priority 2. Interacting with the stack 3. AP/NAP

[@justinayran]

Oh, and the intervening if!

[@marsrocks247]

The most common rule break in my experience is priority. Nearly every game the active player will attempt to resolve a spell only to have each other player try to politic their way out of spending their removal. The priority gets all the way around back to the active player, then the first person to pass priority will say: "actually, because nobody else did anything I *will* actually have to counter that" That is CHEATING.

[@helderboymh]

The player casting a spell will get priority first, so if the active player is attempting to cast a that player gets priority first after its put on the stack.

[@ThomasBomb45]

It's up to your playgroup if you want to allow politicking about removal, etc, but it would be good to get that passing priority rule actually being followed

[@jakeshrum1937]

Great video! Helped me clear up some misconceptions my play group had.

[@crawdaddy1234]

If clones said “When it enters the battlefield,” it would die as a state-based effect before it became a copy of the other creature.

[@okgut2033]

Or you stifle the copy effect. Same result :)

[@ZakanaHachihaCBC]

@@okgut2033 you can’t stifle the copy effect, that is a Replacement Effect and not an activated or triggered ability

[@bahamut416]

Seeing you talk about all this reminds me of so many people complaining about how Clone Shell actually worked vs how they thought it worked when it comes to bouncing it when effects are or aren't on the stack. I had an agreement with the judge at that shop where he'd basically just walk by at the start of the round and preemptively go 'Yes, his deck works the way he says it does, I don't want to have this conversation yet again.' lol Hell, I even preemptively went to one of the head judges at a regional(I believe, been a while) just to point out the same thing preemptively and try to make sure the judges were on the same page. Apparently Imprint is also one of those 'has changed in the past' rules.

[@IceSki117]

I did a fun thing with that timing mechanic you mentioned with Mangara yesterday. One of my opponents gave me a Humble Defector that I activated and then sacrificed to a Deadly Dispute. My friend who was sitting across the table wasn't very happy that he didn't get a turn with it.

[@monkaeyes]

Tokens definitely go to the graveyard, the game Magic: Duels of the plainswalkers 2013 (just the one that I played) the animation when the token dies it moves, on screen, to the graveyard. Then it disappears.

[@brianmcevoy1990]

Great video. Very informative. Especially for newer players.

[@MrMonrovis]

So great haha I literally had the Elesh Norn - sakura tribe elder situation pop up and I knew they couldn’t sacrifice it in response to it dying but everyone “wasn’t sure” so they let him lol. I knew in my mind

[@jacobstone4070]

You can't respond to elesh norn's static ability BUT you could respond to Elesh Norn being cast, right? In your Chord of calling example you wouldn't have a window during the resolution, you'd just have to know somehow that's what the player would pull out and sac your creatures, like burnished hart in response to the casting of chord of calling. That's like how one of my pet cards works, Capricious Efreet. You can respond to the trigger going on the stack, (when you see which permanents are targeted) but you can't respond to the resolution when the Efreet chooses one at random to destroy. I can target my own mind stone with him and one permanent (including enchantments) that my opponent controls, then sacrifice the mind stone to draw a card and the efreet's effect will resolve and choose among the remaining targets ( the only one left)

[@joesmith6226]

You are correct. They would have to respond to the casting of chord of calling. Once the spell has resolved there are no more changing of priorities until after the next game action. The Elesh Norn's state based effect cannot be responded to.

[@michaelturner2806]

One thing that's come up multiple times in my FLGS Commander nights is the mana cost/value of tokens. If a thing making a token doesn't specify, then a token has no mana cost, and its mana value (cmc) is 0. However, if a token is a copy of something, then it copies all characteristics of the thing it's copying, including mana cost. So a token that's a copy of a Giant Adephage still has mana cost of 5GG, which contributes to devotion to green, and is unaffected by a board wipe that affects creatures with mana value 3 or less. I've got a Ghired big tokens deck, and someone cast Austere Command to try to get rid of my dozen or so Giant Adephages, choosing enchantments and creatures mv 3 or less. I had to explain tokens can have mana cost/value, and they called a judge. Even the judge off the cuff stated of course tokens had no mana cost, and I had to request he look up the rule, which he did and confirmed. I still got my big bugs wiped, and my token doublers, but it also meant everyone else's big creatures died too, leaving the elves deck to run free with all its 1/1s. It came up again when I was playing Osgir, and seemingly out of nowhere used Bosh to chuck my Thran Dynamo at someone, used Osgir with Anointed Procession to make 4 more of them, and threw those at face for lethal. They weren't prepared for it, since they didn't know the tokens of Thran Dynamo could be thrown by Bosh for 4 damage each. Again, judge called, got asked to double check, and everyone at the table except me learned a new thing about tokens.

[@Benasouki]

Easy way to test things for me is the arena mobile or desktop game. I use that to get rulings on some cards.

[@javierpatag3609]

Constructive criticism: I'm concerned that your example for static abilities at 8:20 may make people think that you can't respond to Elesh Norn or similar itself _being cast_ or _coming into play._ That's different from trying to respond to her -2/-2 when she's already on the Battlefield. So if *she herself has just been cast and is still on the Stack* or *the effect that puts her into play itself is on the Stack,* an opponent can still respond. An opposing player's Sakura-Tribe Elder can indeed be sacrificed to get some use out of it before the -2/-2 effect kills it.

[@dapperghastmeowregard]

True, although also worth noting with stuff like Chord or Elvish Piper you basically have to do a read. You can respond to the effect, but you won't know what creature your opponent is putting onto the battlefield *and* your opponent can pick whatever creature they want when it resolves (within the relevant constraints of the card in question of course) even if they were planning on doing Elesh Norn originally.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

this is why i specifically gave the example of chord of calling, since you don't know what your opponent is going to get.

[@javierpatag3609]

@@dapperghastmeowregard It creates an opportunity for the Chord/Norn player to throw off their opponent, assuming said opponent knows Norn is in the deck and likely the target of the Chord. If the opponent decides to respond to a perceived fetched Norn by sacrificing their creatures that Norn would kill by her static abilities, the Chord player can choose a different creature instead, making the opponent's sacrifice a waste. If the opponent doesn't respond that way, then they can choose Norn. That said, it's probably best to respond to the Chord regardless of the actual creature being fetched. If the opponent knows Norn is in the deck and is legal for the Chord or whatever fetch card is used, they may as well assume it's her and respond accordingly. In particular, if the opponent has counterspells, then Chord by itself is worth countering.

[@joesmith6226]

this tricky timing issue comes up more often referring to clones. Since there is no targeting when a clone is on the stack, if you didn't want a particular creature cloned, like an elesh norn, you would have to pre-emptively respond while the clone is on the stack. Once it has resolved players can no longer respond to the clone players choice. It's then in play and the static abilities immediately take effect.

[@Shikigami6]

But what about the casting of creatures with static abilities? In the example with Elesh Norn, I would still be able to sack all my creatures in response to her being cast, right? I just wouldn't be able to create a new token and sack it before getting destroyed due to her static ability, since it does not trigger, correct?

[@thcatbob]

From my understanding, and I could be wrong I am new. I don't think you have the opportunity to, cause the ability it is automatically activated and in effect when she is on the board so anything lower than a 2 toughness is immediately destroyed.

[@OverlyCriticalAnime]

Yes. It's a replacement effect. It does not use the stack so you must sac all creatures to the cast

[@jlateralus21]

You can respond to it being cast, if you have an instant speed sac outlet. As soon as she resolves, you can't.

[@cadstar369]

@@thcatbob this is halfway correct. You wouldn’t get to sacrifice a new token if it had 0 toughness or less, but having 0 toughness or less invokes a state-based action that causes it to die immediately, and does not count as it being destroyed.

[@dalol90]

The example being given in the video talks about a card that puts Elesh into the field, meaning that if you dont sac your things at the casting of said card that brings her, you dont get the opportunity to respond to Elesh entering the battlefield. The "casting" of Elesh would be the moment the player uses the card to bring her. If you dont know she is coming, you may not sac your things, thinking they are safe. As soon as the effect of the card resolves, the priority is given to your opponent, giving you no time to sac your things when Elesh appears.

[@Kahadi]

One rule I want to add that can be confusing, specific to EDH/Commander: Your commander does enter the graveyard or exile properly, just like anything else, and you can keep it there if you want, like for its effect or the effect of another card you have. But you can return it from the graveyard or exile to the command zone whenever state-based actions are checked. So it will trigger "enters the graveyard" effects just like tokens, it can be brought back with other effects, ignoring Commander tax entirely, you can blink/flicker it or protect it from death with another temporary exile, etc. As for putting it in your hand or library, the ability to send it to the Command Zone is a replacement effect, meaning it never enters your hand or library if you put it back in the Command Zone (though I'm not sure of any triggers for that), but it too is optional, so you can put it in your hand or library to protect it or for other purposes, and casting it from your hand will also avoid Commander tax. I feel this is important to clarify because I have seen some comments on Commander deck building videos saying various effects are useless for a Commander for things like that or people not knowing it can go to other zones and thinking blink effects are effective removal against Commanders and bounce effects worthless protection.

[@BIGFRANKOL75]

8:50 would you be able to flash in a creature that has "When a creature dies" abilities into play before the creatures hit the graveyard/die?

[@bflandragon90]

Yes. If someone had cast a wrath of god or any other boardwipe, you can flash in a creature with death triggers and it'll see all the other creatures die also so you'll get to do whatever would happen when those creatures die.

[@chibichanga1849]

@@bflandragon90 If he's talking about the Elesh Norn/Sakura Tribe-elder interaction, the answer is no; when you resolve the Sakura Tribe-elder - or any creature with toughness 2 or less - the creature's toughness immediately becomes 0 or less and goes to the graveyard when you check state-based actions before anyone would get priority to flash in a creature.

[@juliosamaniego2206]

I learn so much when I see your vids. Great stuff EDH Deckbuilding! 👍

[@Demotros]

Loved this. Especially the MoC segment. Someone pulled a fast one on me when I first played it.

[@BDCMatt]

Cant they just sac tokens/creatures before elesh norn revolves and the static effect takes place?

[@ridiculous_fox]

Indeed they can if Elesh Norn is cast directy. But if something like Chord of Calling resolves, it will put the Elesh Norn directly onto the battlefield. So they wouldn't know in advance that an Elesh Norn gets tutored and put onto the battlefield in this case. They would need to respont to the Chord, in which case something else could get tutored up when it resolves.

[@Y2KNW]

The "auras that aren't cast don't target" thing is something I used to great effect in an Orvar deck. As long as you have one of those "enchanted creature is a (small/small)" auras, you can target it when someone swings with something scary and then you just block their 0/2 Frog or whatever it turns into.

[@ztustsing]

I learned last month about evergreen abilities. An R&D term they use. A common ability made into a keyword. Even though they aren’t wide spread wish they would do that with cards that lure, creatures that can’t be blocked by more than one, creatures that can block any number, attacker for those that can’t block since defender being a keyword now has some new interaction, etc. I remember (I think I remember) the distraction of effects over abilities. Example. You have a white aura on a creature. That is a continuous effect. If the creature was given later protection from white the aura would fall off. I know the rule is the same just don’t know if the terminology is. Being like keyword a subtype of static. I started in 1994 and had times I couldn’t play. So I’m one of those that get it wrong now. Two big ones for me was how lifelink Will safe your life when hitting zero. Cost me a game. And must abilities if missed are still missed unless that hurt you. I don’t like that since I played over a decade ago with two people that were death. Mail person I play with is 76, my father who started in the 90’s too. Even if it’s only if it’s a negative against you I have heard my dad talk after games how it seems to be used against him since he is mostly a chess player and getting slower in processing. I see it as a change that unless it was turns ago (I can understand that. Not in between phases) as discriminatory against the disabled and elderly. A judge gave me a link to the chat they use for rules questions but I can’t figure it out. This link I found useful but you need patience. List of all rule changes by set. yawgatog.com/resources/rules-changes/ Post 8th and may still be old but still useful.

[@scouttis]

Wow thanks! I didn't know that about static abilities. Great summary!

[@rolandgarcia7000]

Who wants more video about rulling ? Me captain ! Thx for your work

[@light-chemistry]

Thanks for the video Demo! Very helpful! But I'm just trying to understand your last Elesh Norn example. I get that you're saying you can respond to Elesh Norn in this case because it wasn't cast, so I can't sack my creatures in response to Elesh Norn. But could I not still sack my creatures in response to the Chord of Calling, which I think does use the stack no?

[@twilightwolf90]

This is correct, but you would be making the assumption that Chord for Elesh Norn is the play, and the Chord player could punish you by grabbing something else instead since the tutor choice is made during resolution of Chord.

[@javierpatag3609]

twilightwolf90's point is very enlightening. You don't know what card is going to be searched for by Chord of Calling until it resolves, and you can't respond once it's allowed to resolve. It would mean that a player can really throw off an opponent who knew Elesh Norn was in your deck. If the opponent thinks Elesh Norn is going to be searched for, they may sacrifice their creatures to get value out of them before Elesh Norn enters the battlefield- at which point the Norn player can choose a different creature to put into play, wasting their sacrifices. And if they choose not to sacrifice their creatures, Elesh Norn kills them without allowing their controller to do anything about it.

[@light-chemistry]

@@javierpatag3609 I guess you could counter the whole chord of calling which would save you the trouble

[@javierpatag3609]

@@light-chemistry Yep. If it's worth using Chord of Calling on, it's likely something big and worth countering.

[@slimeproject2868]

Nice video! I would have preffered the exact rule/source you got the ruling from.

[@jeremyobriant7266]

I love the game of Magic. It's so complex but almost all of the rules you need, outside of the basic rules, are written directly on the cards. Magic is relatively easy to get started with, but it takes years to understand all of the little details and intricacies. I think every player who has any interest beyond the most casual of interest should study the rules and interactions, etc. I don't know how many people I've seen in comment sections of videos from MTG Goldfish, etc. claiming that Seth or someone did something wrong or misplayed when they didn't, the commenters just didn't understand what was happening or how something worked. A few weeks ago, I spent so long trying to explain to people how and why (Bonecrusher Giant) Stomp was a worry for Seth in a game because they didn't seem to understand how Stomp's "damage can't be prevented" text affected the state of the game. I don't remember the details of that debate but I do remember if the opponent had Stomp, Seth would've probably lost. That comment section, though... 🙄

[@cookiecthulhu]

an important distinction with tokens: if a card cares about other cards going into graveyard, it will not count tokens dying. ie. "whenever a creature card is put into your graveyard" is not the same as "whenever a creature dies" if it's a creature token, as tokens are not cards

[@therealfriday13th]

Easy way to interpret Cursed Mirror correctly: It's an "as" effect and not a "when" effect. The "as" part is happening as the spell resolves, so when it leaves the stack but before it hits the battlefield, it becomes a copy of another creature. Then it ACTUALLY hits the battlefield and triggers the ETB effect. It's the same as if you need to stop for gas before you get to the grocery store. You buy the gas AS you go to the grocery store, not WHEN you get to the grocery store.

[@AkatPlays]

One of my favorite rules to "abuse" is that you cannot respond to mana abilities, so cards like Selvala Explorer Returned cant be responded to when using their mana ability

[@nolife874]

I had a game the other day that the auras etb not targeting came up. My opponent had a creature making all of his other stuff hexproof and a hexproof counter on it. I was playing a mono green spirits deck my removal for the deck was beast within a few fight spells and some kenrith transformation type effects. I had a 16/16 kodama of the East Tree in play and after drawing a ton off rishkar's expertise I realized I could throw kenriths transformation onto the creature making everything hexproof with kodamas effect opening up all my targeted removal in hand.

[@billbbaggins3974]

Cursed mirror explanation is also why you have to use thespian stage for dark depths combo over vesuva because vesuva will enter as a copy of dark depths and gain the ice counters as well then legend rule one away. Stage becomes a copy after it's on the field so no etb ice counters then you can assign the the triggers to sac for the marit lage before the legend rule sacrifice

[@Jerhevon]

Another thing on triggers. There are reflexive triggers that are embodied within another ability. Ancient Brass Dragon being a good example. Sure it reanimates an arbitrary set of things, but the initial action is: When this hits, roll a D20. And then the Reflexive trigger is the "When you do" part that is a trigger that puts a new clause with new targets on the stack that reference back to that D20 you rolled.

[@Jerhevon]

And also the various forms of delayed triggers created by other effects. For instance the common red: Create an X. Exile it at at the beginning of the next end step.

[@roidesizzets]

Do more videos like this ! Very helpfull bro ! Thanks again :)

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

If you're wanting to see more videos like this that cover the rules of Magic and how cards interact with each other, check out my series called Tough Rules & Cool Interactions. They are all about covering this sorts of things. If you do check it out, please give me some feedback. I'm always looking to improve the videos.

[@caseygreen]

Thanks so much! Please make it a regular

[@XoIoRouge]

Ok, this one felt a bit defensive but has a LOT of good content. I'd love to see more Comp Rules Referrals but other than that, nice vid. (By referrals, I mean saying something like, "Cursed Mirror's ETB is a replacement effect using the word "As," as stated in rule XXX. This occurs during as the creature is coming into play, before it does, causing an ETB effect as stated in rule XXX.")

[@samueljames8654]

Theres also delayed triggers where the ability is put on the stack at some later date, love them, they can get confusing

[@only1sn1not1taken]

One thing that I would like to point out about tokens dying is that tokens are not CARDS. So in the case of something like Dauthi Voidwalker, where normally it would stop any sort of die trigger due to the replacement effect, since tokens aren't cards they will still go to grave and get a die trigger.

[@ODedonlife]

I had to ask the judge community on a fun ruling recently dealing with Myrkul and Teysa Karlov where Teysa doubles death triggers. It unfortunately doesn't work with Myrkul since he exiles creatures in resolution of the ability. I.E. Teysa would copy the trigger, the copied trigger would resolve first exiling the creature and making the enchantment, then the original ability would try and exile the creature, but without a valid creature to exile, the trigger fizzles. It was unfortunate since it's not an additional cost or activated cost which would allow for double.

[@SloanWentzell]

to add onto the tokens going to the graveyard ruling. if an affect triggers “when a creature CARD goes to the graveyard” that won’t count tokens because tokens aren’t cards.

[@IXCELR8]

I’m not sure that is correct since they make cards to represent said tokens. As an example the Goat token card in this video.

[@Felixr2]

@@IXCELR8 By the rules, tokens are not considered to be cards. Comprehensive rules, 108.2b: 'Tokens aren't considered cards - even a card-sized game supplement that represents a token isn't considered a card for rules purposes.' Also Comprehensive rules, 111.1: '... A token is a marker used to represent any permanent that isn't represented by a card.'

[@jmcwherterx]

Does anyone know the result of attaching Animate Dead to Horobi, Deaths Wail? How does that stack work? I have been asking everywhere with no answer so far..

[@imaginexcreative4913]

if i need 1 more card type for delerium for my unholy heat, and it happens to be the artifact type from a treasure token, can i respond to it entering the graveyard but before it leaves to benefit from its delerium effect?

[@helderboymh]

No you can't it goes to the graveyard, but it never stays in the graveyard. As soon as it hits the graveyard it ceases to exist. The more technical explanation is: State-base action constantly check if everything is correct, before any player would get priority. One of the things they check for is If a token is in a zone other than the battlefield, of that's the case that token ceases to exist. State-base actions don't use the stack so can't be responded to.

[@bstgamer1]

If my opponent play planeswalker and play an instant to try and destroy it my opponent cant use the planeswalker ability because its a sorcy and there is already an ability on the stack i am right ??

[@underscore_5450]

I've been playing Magic since Mirrodin Besieged and even I have troubles with some of these interactions sometimes. Obeka still scares me. My brain can't fathom things on the stack that somehow half resolve and then get exiled.

[@brianflayer]

About the aura targeting. Does that apply to journey to nowhere? Can I blink that to exile a shroud creature?

[@ospero7681]

Journey to Nowhere isn't an aura and always targets (as the first sentence of its text clearly states).

[@brianflayer]

@@ospero7681 no need to be snide. It's a discussion about unclear rules.

[@ospero7681]

@@brianflayer If that came across as snide, apologies. It was meant as a statement of fact.

[@bradleyhoward9638]

These are all important and really tricky I feel smart cuz I already knew them all but that's just because I've been playing Commander for a decade. Despite that I still enjoyed the video so thanks.

[@hubaswift7640]

Regarding tokens hitting the graveyard. If they go to the graveyard before disappearing, does that mean they leave the graveyard as well? Potentially working for a "whenever a card leaves your graveyard" type triggers?

[@helderboymh]

They don't leave. They cease to exist. Leaving always involves an object going to a new zone after leaving the old zone.

[@hubaswift7640]

@@helderboymh Gotcha. Thanks!

[@ThomasBauer95]

Cant i respond to Elesh Norn hitting the battlefield? I mean, when i cast it from my hand im pretty sure i can, but when it comes into play by an effect (like Chord of Calling) why cant i react to the effect of Chord?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

the chord being cast you can respond to, but you don't know what your opponents is getting with it. once it resolves it's too late.

[@brendans1983]

Haven't seen the video yet. Elesh can be responded to on the stack, like any permanent. I think Chord of Calling needs to be responded to BEFORE resolution too, as in you don't need to choose its target as part of its cost. It's an effect that happens upon resolution.

[@dovhalpern]

How about a video about when spells fizzle because the targets have disappeared

[@Misadon92]

Further question on the token graveyard interaction, would them ceasing to exist after hitting the gy trigger effects that look for "when X leaves the graveyard"¿

[@helderboymh]

No, a card leaving a zone always involves it moving to another zone. It doesn't leave it just stops existing.

[@Misadon92]

@@helderboymh thank you

[@kongutahu]

So if a triggered ability has to start with when whenever or at, what sort of ability is if it starts with "if", like on harmonic prodigy

[@helderboymh]

A replacement effect. It falls under the umbrella of static effects. There are many words, or ways of writing a replacement effect. (Unlike triggers or activated abilities which are easily regonize able as shown in the video) A replacement effect is a type of continuous effect that watches for one event to happen, and replaces it entirely with another event. (in this case instead of trigger triggering once it gets replaced by two triggers)

[@kongutahu]

@@helderboymh that makes sense, thank you

[@katherynedarrah4245]

For those who are still having trouble with the "as X enters" vs "When X enters" think about it like this (using "trigger" here for ease of wording): As is an on-successful-cast trigger. Meaning, pay 2R, announce casting of Cursed Mirror. Check for responses/counters. If none, ability triggers. Whereas ETB is an end-of-state trigger. Meaning, Pay 1GG, announce casting of Eternal Witness. Check for responses. If none, the permanent enters the battlefield, THEN ability triggers. See the difference? If someone had an ability to stop an artifact from entering the battlefield, *technically* the AETB of Cursed Mirror is still a thing. Because it happens BEFORE it hits the battlefield.

[@Felixr2]

Calling it a trigger in any way is only going to lead to confusion later on because 'trigger' is a very rules-significant word that doesn't apply for 'as'. The very point of this video's explanation is to make people aware that 'as' isn't a trigger. 'As' is part of the spell's resolution. That's the only way of correctly understanding it. Note that creatures enter the battlefield only after the creature spell has resolved (but before checking state-based actions).

[@katherynedarrah4245]

@@Felixr2 not really. "As" vs "when" is very specific on the timing. And it is and isn't a trigger at the same time. The ability *triggers* when the spell is successfully cast without being countered. But *before* it actually hits the battlefield. Whereas a "when etb" trigger can only go off when it *actually* hits the battlefield. Meaning if you can somehow exile it before it enters--by ending the stack for example--it can't go off.

[@Felixr2]

@@katherynedarrah4245 It's still not a trigger or an ability. Those use the stack and 'as' effects don't. Granted, my prior explanation was even worse and I don't know what I was thinking. 'As' effects are replacement effects, which 'apply continuosly as events happen'. In the specific case of 'as [this permanent] enters the battlefield', this means it applies as it is about to move from another zone to the battlefield, before it has entered the battlefield. Any choices are also made in this moment. The stack is not used in any part of this process. Example: - Your opponent has an Elesh Norn on the battlefield - You cast Tinker - Responses? (let's assume it doesn't get countered) - Tinker resolves: you search and find Cursed Mirror - As part of Cursed Mirror's replacement effect, you choose to have it become a copy of Elesh Norn - Elesh Norn enters the battlefied, and her continuous effect immediately applies (- Tinker goes to your graveyard - State-based actions are checked - Priority returns to the active player) In your explanation, describing the 'as' effect as a trigger, there would be an opportunity to cast instants before making the choice to turn Cursed Mirror into a creature. In my previous explanation, since Cursed Mirror hasn't resolved as a spell here, the 'as' effect wouldn't have activated at all. (Yes, my previous explanation was that bad, I know) Both are clearly incorrect. Simplifying it with comparisons that don't hold up under scrutiny doesn't do anyone any favors.

[@katherynedarrah4245]

​@@Felixr2 you don't seem to understand what I am saying, so let me completely rephrase everything: Every ability has a trigger, by the definition of what a trigger is. In this case, the definition application is "an event that incites an action". So, let's take Syr Konrad the Grim. He has 2 abilities. The first says "whenever a creature dies, is put into a graveyard from anywhere other than the battlefield, or leaves your graveyard, each opponent loses 1 life" Simple enough. This is a sterotypical case of an *actual* triggered ability. This is what cards look for when they say triggered ability. *However* he has a second ability: 1B: Each player mills a card. This is an *activated* ability by the definition of the rules, but there's still a trigger, an inciting event, if you will: paying the mana and putting it into the ability. Yes, there's no ACTUAL trigger it looks for, but by the definition of what a trigger is, it's still a trigger. Same thing with conditional activation abilities. I.e. "3, T: Draw a card. Activate only as a Sorcery" probably not an actual ability, but it works for an example. In this case, you can trigger it off any time you want, but the ability will only activate if you can cast a Sorcery. You failed to understand where I mentioned that I was using trigger for ease of wording: by definition it can work.

[@ZioZs_Builds]

What about if elesh norn is out and your opponents play a creature with an etb and the creature is a 2/2, does there etb go off?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

yes. it needs to enter the battlefield in order to die.

[@aceundead4750]

Since you covered copying in this video would you happen to know what is created if a planeswalker is equipped with Luxior, Giada's Gift and then copied with something like Kik-Jiki? Is it a creature token created, and if so does it have a power/toughness higher than zero?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

kiki jiki can't copy legends. which all planeswalkers are. furthermore the copy would be a 0/0 and immediately die.

[@aceundead4750]

@@edhdeckbuilding kiki-jiki was just used as an example of something that could copy, first thing that i could remember the name of. Thank you though.

[@wafflesarelove5801]

The way I like to explain tokens hitting the graveyard is that they stop existing once they enter a zone other than the battlefield, be it deck, hand, graveyard, or exile.

[@helderboymh]

That's a great explanation because that's exactly what happens! :D

[@Yamaazaka]

8:22 but you do have time to respond to them attempting to cast elesh norn...?

[@robertpearce2244]

Very clear, thanks for sharing 😊👍

[@zumszum]

I would like to see some deeper explanation about triggered abilities that trigger even when the original permanent is already gone from the battlefield. Some allow it to trigger some dont and i cant fully understand when is what. And also, can i Village Rite my Zombie with decayed after it deals damage or not? It is a triggered ability so i should be able to do it in response, right?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

coming right up

[@davidkruszka8426]

I have a token question. Does a devil token count as a creature with the devil typing? Same for farie dragon, does ot count as a farie and dragons creature?

[@tonysmith9905]

Well yeah, of course. When a token generating effect says to "create a 1/1 Elf" the token's name and creature type is Elf. This applies to all the other creature types, Devil, Faerie Dragon, Goblin, etc etc.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

any token that has a creature type is a creature by default

[@davidkruszka8426]

@@tonysmith9905 thank you the clarification. I know it seems simple, I just needed to see it written out plainly and could not find a source that made it clear enough for me.

[@reaxor]

also what about Run Away Together for exampel, some people try and play it even though it has no secondary target, is this possible? i would say since it does not say "up to" you have to have 2 valid targets to play it.

[@helderboymh]

Yes, you're correct. that's exactly the whole point of the card.

[@timtauber5557]

What about continuous effects that are turned off when the artifact is tapped?

[@helderboymh]

Well, Those are in effect along as the artifact is untapped. As soon as an effect resolves that taps it, or a cost is payed where you tap it as part of the cost, the effect stops. To be clear that's no longer a standard rule for all artifacts, that used to a rule but they changed that very long ago. Some cards that were printed before the rule change had the rules text change so they stayed the same. Winter orb for example. Which now has the text "as long as winter orb is untapped..."

[@lordscrub9210]

If a card would make all cards that would go to graveyard be exiled instead then do creatures still "Die" when destroyed or no?

[@tonysmith9905]

If it says "instead" specifically then no, creatures will not die. If the card in question exiles them AFTER they hit the graveyard then yes, they still die.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

as an example, Planar Void, yes they hit the graveyard first, but a Leyline of the Void exiles instead, which means they will never hit the graveyard.

[@jaredcrawford923]

You may already have a video on this, but if not, a video breaking down all of the steps and phases on an entire turn would be helpful. Like when each player gets priority, when instants can be cast during each step, when your opponent can respond to you, etc. You could use some actual cards to make examples too.

[@helderboymh]

There are quite a few videos about that topic already

[@jaredcrawford923]

@@helderboymh by him?

[@helderboymh]

@@jaredcrawford923 not by him.

[@forloveofthepage2361]

When people make a comment that magic can't be that complicated, I explain banding.

[@dapperghastmeowregard]

Memes aside it's not that bad (although prolly more complicated than most things they'd do these days), IIRC: When attacking, you can form "bands" of any number of banding creatures and up to one nonbanding creature. If a creature blocks any creatures in a band, the entire band becomes blocked by that creature. If a creature is blocking or blocked by a creature with banding, the banding creature's controller can assign the first creature's damage however they want (ignoring the conga line rule).

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

Banding gets a lot of 'hate' because when it released there was no reminder text on the cards to explain it, so unless you went into a rules book you had no clue what the ability did. If you're wanting to get really into some complicated parts of Magic, the Stack is often brought up but I think that the Layers system (continuous effects) is up there in complexity as well as the steps to casting spells (and activating abilities) as well as the steps in dealing combat damage, it's actually a 4-part system. Oh, and State-Based Actions and Replacement Effects. All these sorts of things are pretty tricky, which is why I'm making videos on them trying to explain all sorts of scenarios.

[@ivorymantis1026]

The cursed mirror part of this video is why I run Orvar with only shape shifters (mimics) as creatures. I love stealing someone's wincon and making 10 copies of it. I love stealing ETB cards and making 10 copies of it. Best part is the copy of the mimic enters as the mimic first, so it's a low key flash when I target a mimic with a one mana instant with Orvar. Target, make copy, mimic can enter as any creature on the battlefield. If I'm doing this with say, someone else's acidic slime or eternal witness or mystic snake, things get hilarious quick.

[@michaelmorgan-ur7uv]

Does the tokens for blade of selves stay or still exile with jinnie fay?

[@helderboymh]

Yep, you still exile them at the end of combat. It's a delayed trigger that is separate from the token it self. Note sometimes the ability is modified into the Values of the token created, which Jinnie replaces. So, a changed Delina token or a Minion Reflector token, you get to keep indefinitely.

[@NStripleseven]

Do tokens hit the hand, if they’re (say) unsummoned? Inquiring Azorius Aethermages and Stormfront Riders want to know.

[@helderboymh]

They trigger both those cards yes.

[@ivoryequinox5493]

Question, wouldn't bouncing Mangara fizzle the ability due to the and? If both can't resolve will it still go through?

[@jonnyrice5263]

Mangara's ability does not target itself. It only has a single target: the other permanent. Once on the stack, so long as that target is still legal, the ability will resolve what it can regardless of what happened to Mangara.

[@ivoryequinox5493]

@@jonnyrice5263 oh awesome, thanks

[@dapperghastmeowregard]

@@jonnyrice5263 Also even if it did, a spell only fails to resolve if all of its targets become illegal. If I bounce one of my creatures in response to Hex, the other five will still be destroyed.

[@simonetozzi7912]

Although you can respond with e.g. Sakura-Tribe Elder's activated ability while Elesh Norn or the Chord of Calling is on the stack.

[@sweetmorbidbunny3366]

you can respond to the chord of calling, (you don't know the target until it goes off), but in his example the Elesh Norn is never on the stack, once the chord goes off and the Norn is put on the battlefield.

[@infamousXsniper055]

Something important to note about the Deathtouch + Trample example is that Trample only allows damage to carry over from creatures to players. Damage always works like it does with Trample, it just doesn't continue on to players without Trample. If multiple creatures block a Deathtouch creature, the Deathtouch creature will still only assign however much damage it needs to kill each blocker: one. For example, a Deathtouch creature with 3 power getting blocked by two creatures with 4 toughness will assign one damage to each creature, killing them both. If it has Trample, it'll carry over the 1 remaining damage to the defending player.

[@andrewp979]

You can assign damage in excess of lethal though. In your example, the 3 power deathtoucher could assign 2 damage and 1 damage, gaining 3 life from lifelink not 2

[@user_Leo]

I'm not sure if you'll see this since it's a comment on an old video but I have a question, if I play vizier of many faces and have it copy a legendary creature will the legendary rule apply?

[@helderboymh]

Yes. Legendary rule applies when you control two cards that have the same name and * both * are legendary. The vizier becomes a "perfect" copy meaning it also copies the name. So yes you would need to sacrifice one of the two if you copies your own legendary creature. This is the reason spark double (also a clone) says it isn't legendary if the card it's copying is legendary. So that you do can have two of the same legendary with it.

[@TheLK641]

About Elesh Norn, just to be 100% sure : let's say you clone it, there's a point where you have both on the battlefield before you have to sac one of them to the legend rule, so opponents' creature get -4/-4 for an instant right ?

[@Benasouki]

Unless U use mirror box or clone but not legendary. Or helm of the host irrc.

[@ridiculous_fox]

It's true, that for just a moment All creatures your opponents control get -4/-4, before you choose one Elesh Norn to keep as a state-based action. Since creatures dying to 0 or less toughness is also a state-based action, they will die at the same time. Just for clarification: Keep in mind that loosing a creature to the legend rule is not "sacrificing" it, so triggered abilities that look out for stuff getting sacrificed don't trigger.

[@Benasouki]

@@ridiculous_fox but dying triggers work

[@TheLK641]

@@ridiculous_fox Thank you. I have a clone deck that once made a few copies of Elesh Norn as a pseudo-boardwipe and that's how we ruled it, but I still had a bit of doubt about it ^^

[@ChrisAcoltzi]

Quick question, can I bring back (to the battlefield) a zombie token when it dies using the Mikaeus ability?

[@helderboymh]

Nope.

[@ChrisAcoltzi]

@@helderboymh thanks for the reply 👍🏼

[@reaxor]

what about cursed mirror entering copying Spark Double as a creature, will it become the copied version of spark double, or will it gain the ability to gain the Spark Double ability to copy a planeswalker?

[@sambuss7764]

If I activate an ability and someone goes to remove the creature, does the ability still happen?

[@tonysmith9905]

Depends on if the only thing the ability does is interact with the target. Some spells and abilities continue to do as much as they can even if the original target is gone. Some will fizzle.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

once a spell or ability is on the stack it remains there unless countered. doesn't matter what happens to the source.

[@ZagrasNixillis]

Does Twinning Staff work with Volo, Guide to Monsters copy triggered ability?

[@Deslider]

Would that mean that Magda, Brazen Outlaw has a static ability and you can't prevent it from searching for a dragon or artifact in any way, shape or form? Please correct me if I'm wrong, been playing a while but the seperate abilities is what I have a bit of an issue with

[@oals29]

It has a colon ("sac five treasures: search your library..."), so it's an activated ability. It uses the stack and can be responded. But the searching and putting on the field is part of the resolution, so you need to respond without knowing what specific card they are getting.

[@vicenteiiporciuncula1158]

What kind of ability is the cursed mirror's copy ability? Not static, not triggered, not activated.

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

It's a Replacement effect for how the card enters the Battlefield. The Copy effect itself is a continuous effect that applies in Layer 1 where copiable characteristics apply.

[@Carnevets]

Another rule I've seen misunderstood a bunch is replacement effects. Example: How Platinum Emperion doesn't prevent your life total from changing, it replaces the life change to 0, so damage triggers can still occur, including Commander Damage.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

this is because platinum emperion is not a replacement effect.

[@helderboymh]

Platinum Emperion doesn't prevent * damage * It does prevent your life total from changing. But I guess that's what you meant ;) This doesn't have much to do with wether this is a replacement effect or not btw. As the two function similarly 614.17. Some effects state that something can’t happen. These effects aren’t replacement effects, but follow similar rules

[@Carnevets]

I realize that now. I misinterpreted the way it was originally explained to me. Appreciate the corrections.

[@dustinkennedy8107]

I saw someone pull the Mangara blink at a timespiral draft, half the room was awe struck

[@intention21]

Sapphire medallion can pay for a buyback cost right? I went infinite and I was told that sapphire medallion could NOT pay for the buyback. Please let me know

[@helderboymh]

Yes it can reduce buy back cost. The rule about determinating what a spell costs is that you first add at its mana cost every addictional cost, then you apply every cost reduction.

[@intention21]

@@helderboymh that’s exactly what I thought. And my play group said I couldn’t do that 😠

[@Chase0313]

What category does muldrotha, the gravetide belong to?

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

What do you mean? What categories are you referring to?

[@hwooman5830]

So, since cursed mirror becomes a copy of something before it actually comes into play, does that mean you have to declare what it will become a copy of, a someone can choose to counter it?

[@stuvius]

You declare it as it enters the battlefield, meaning it has already resolved. You don't have to declare it when casting the spell, so you won't know what they would choose to copy when countering the spell.

[@cjwarden1084]

As you mention clone effects, I think an explanation of Replacement Effects would be useful -- you touch on it with "As" being different to "When" or "At", but it's a very common misunderstanding.

[@helderboymh]

There are many ways to word replacement effect. And they are not on the same "hierarchy level" as the other two, as replacement effects fall under the umbrella of static effects. Some say "as", some say"if ... Would ... Instead..." Some say just "if" Even effects that say "skip" are replacement effects.

[@cjwarden1084]

@@helderboymh Agreed, but I think they're a common cause for rules confusion. For instance, I'm a long-term player and only got a concrete answer this week about the order in which "competing" replacement effects resolve. Rather than being and "active player / passive player" distinction, it's determined by the "affected player / owner of affected permanent/effect". For EDH, this distinction is highly important (knowing how a Narset POV replacement effect interacts with other draw-replacement effects), and likely going to trip up a lot of players.