5 Steps to Check for Weak Arrow Spine

[@mat_in_texas]

If I’ve learned nothing else, it’s that weak arrows are hard to tune well. It’s better to be too stiff than even just a little weak. Go up a spine! You might be surprised how much better your bow shoots.

[@masonoertli4099]

Thanks! Do you think this shows the arrow is one or two spines weak with how much you had to move your adjustment as well? Would be interested to see how little you would have to adjust the bow if you shot the same arrow length with one and two spines heavier. Thanks for taking the time to make this video!

[@mat_in_texas]

@@masonoertli4099 I did another video comparing 400 to 300 spine out of this bow. I shoot 300’s out of it now. I actually just cut those down another inch to help stiffen them up too.

[@RonTruocchio]

exactly. stiff will shoot quieter and although not as fast the extra weight and stiffness will give you better penetration especially at longer distances

[@MisSorryforthespam]

as a recurve shooter everything you're saying makes perfect since to me. In the trad world there isn't much you can change about the bow its all about the arrow.

[@mat_in_texas]

I’ve had some guys try to argue with me that you shouldn’t be able to shoot just about any arrow out of the bow because the modern compounds are so adjustable. But it’s definitely easier if you get the right arrow to begin with.

[@crazywednesday]

Thanks for putting this out there. It is very informative.

[@mat_in_texas]

@@crazywednesday no problem, I enjoy sharing the things I’m learning

[@ernestroger3326]

I appreciate your detail and admire your patience .

[@mat_in_texas]

@@ernestroger3326 Thanks, I appreciate it!

[@Wackmaster69-c4p]

Great job matt and yes the spine charts all need to be updated

[@mat_in_texas]

@@Wackmaster69-c4p I’m glad I’m not off the reservation with that opinion 😂

[@slamonfpv]

thanks for this info helped me alot 🏹🏹

[@mat_in_texas]

@@slamonfpv happy to help

[@Rorza75]

Hi Mat, I came across your channel recently. I watch a lot of content on yt about bow tuning and I would like to commend you on your videos. I find your videos very well formatted, easy to understand, and I like the real world results. Please don’t change too much as you develop as a content creator; from my perspective I believe your videos are as valuable as some of our more well known content creators. You are a fast becoming on of my go to channels when it comes to archery. I appreciate the work required to publish these videos. Thanking you kindly

[@mat_in_texas]

@@Rorza75 Wow, I can’t thank you enough for this comment. I’ve just hoped that someone would be able to learn a little something. Thank you for your kind words.

[@lylemiller5016]

This is absolutly golden iformation matt. I just figured this out today as well Its unbelievable how much better a bow shoots with the right spine i spent 3 hours trying to get a 400 spine to shoot out of my lift 29.5 an it was just bonkers how much work an movement it took to get it close to a decent bt never good an definitely far from perfect tune. So i jump up to a 350 an oh wouldn't you no it things all of a sudden just started to work right seems kinda odd right🤨 not really i just finally found the right spine an it worked wonders. Great video man love how you explained it very simple an clear. Thank a lot!

[@mat_in_texas]

Happy to help. It’s frustrating when you spend a bunch of money on stuff and it doesn’t work the way you expected to. Sometimes a simple change in spine is all it takes.

[@timbow50]

Well done! Great information for the newbie archer. I don’t know how many times over the years I’ve seen people at the range that have no clue as to the information you’ve given here. They have arrows poking in every direction out of the target bail. These are mostly with hunting bow setups. What happens is they are looking for speed in a lighter shaft then stick 175-200 grain head on it and have no idea what is happening. Spine changes with added weight and they don’t know this apparently. There’s so much available information like yours it’s crazy people don’t use it.

[@mat_in_texas]

People don’t know what they don’t know. I’m just hoping these videos help someone along the way.

[@wrobo6122]

Great video Matt! Thanks for sharing!

[@mat_in_texas]

Thanks for watching!

[@wchrisnixon6]

really good video, and I am a seasoned shooter...reminds me of several things I have forgotten about weak spine and tuning...

[@mat_in_texas]

@@wchrisnixon6 glad I could help

[@kennylainhart7148]

Good video for people!!!!

[@mat_in_texas]

Thank you

[@stmgolfcarts-ocalafl8664]

Great Vid

[@mat_in_texas]

Thank you

[@warptmanbmx]

SUPER DETAILED THANK YOU

[@mat_in_texas]

You're welcome!

[@Alan_Edwards]

Interesting. Other videos I have seen has always suggested moving the rest first before going the cam lean route - although if it were that easy to adjust I might try that too. I shoot an old Mathews Conquest 2 and am having problem getting some new arrows to shoot bullet holes. The Q2 does not have split limbs and I misplaced the shim kit that came with the bow long ago. Too be fair I have made a fair amount of adjustments to the bow over time so I am going to take your advice and go back to square one then start from there. Excellent video sir !!

[@mat_in_texas]

Thanks for watching! I tend to tinker with my gear a lot and sometimes before I know it, my bow is all out of whack. I then set everything back to standard and start again.

[@Alan_Edwards]

@@mat_in_texas Yep....that's me all day long !!

[@johnnewcomb5162]

I have always shot 70 lbs and 28.5 inch draw. Used 300 arrows for ever, got a dozen of the 340 spine for free cut them to 26.5 C To C. I had those bare shaft shooting out to 70 yards and fixed blades flew like dart's. I will be messing around with different spine and length from here on out because nothing touched that 340 spine cut down to 26.5 for myself. Penetration was great also.

[@mat_in_texas]

@@johnnewcomb5162 awesome. I think it’s important to try a couple different set ups.

[@henrybright8531]

Excellent video. I have the same specs. 60lbs, 27.5inch draw. All the charts tell me to shoot 400. Had to go up to 340 to get the bow shooting broadheads without letting off draw weight. Also point weight affects spine.

[@mat_in_texas]

@@henrybright8531 yup, I’ve gone up a spine on everything.

[@chrisbowman2030]

Grear video!

[@mat_in_texas]

@@chrisbowman2030 thanks!

[@zacscott5031]

I’ve always experienced the opposite with paper tears and spines. The weaker 300 spine would always give me a tail right tear and the 250 would give me a tail left. That was out of a bowtech and my current Mathew’s. I’ve also noticed a 300 will give me a tail high tear as well compared to my 250. Good information though. Love your channel.

[@wadephillips3882]

Great video keep them coming

[@mat_in_texas]

Thanks! Will do!

[@hrkjcl1]

I'm curious about turning bow down. Turning down should always increase accuracy because bow is easier to handle

[@rolftittmann3482]

Great video. Well done. One aspect to think about. When you are reducing draw weight. The group improvement could also come from you. Lower poundage can help to keep your bow arm steadier. How to separate this from the effect on spine?

[@mat_in_texas]

@@rolftittmann3482 oh ya, there could be plenty of other things affecting this. When turning down the limb bolts, you reduce draw weight and holding weight, it changes your draw length and it changes the effective spine. It absolutely could be a combination of all those things. But by testing with each of those, you can isolate which one is having the greatest impact.

[@brycehiigel235]

All of the Mathews bows I have had seemed to shoot the stiffer spine better.

[@philipmedlin8902]

Before you adjust the poundage, you are supposed to loosen the limb pocket lock screws. Once you make your adjustments you tighten them back down.

[@mat_in_texas]

They were loosened and I left them loose during this because I knew I was going to be making more adjustments to the poundage. Once I was done, I tightened all the bolts, including the SET bolt.

[@brpnw4r94]

Informative, Matt. You may have misspoke about the BH tune. I thought you followed the fletched shaft? BH right of FPs move R Left or Cams Right to bring them together?? Thoughts?

[@mat_in_texas]

@@brpnw4r94 If you’re moving the rest to correct for broadheads landing left or right of the FP’s, you move the rest towards the broadheads. It usually doesn’t take much, a lot of times it’s just a 1/32” or a 1/16” will get you there.

[@leroyjones769]

Great video and information as always. I wonder (if I may) if it would’ve been easier to shoot the arrow with the weaker spine against another arrow with a stiffer spine (if they were very close in weight) to show how much difference there could be. I was able to find within the same manufacturer an arrow close in weight but with a stiffer spine and the gap between the two spines were significant. Just a thought.

[@mat_in_texas]

The video linked at the end compares the 400 vs 300 spine arrows. It definitely likes the 300 spine better

[@leroyjones769]

@@mat_in_texas thanks

[@bbmas1930]

Great vid. Very methodical and clear and all in one spot that new viewers don’t have to go down 20 rabbit holes and then try and piece a methodology together. I will say though that you have to be careful of the type of cam on your bow. I shoot a bow tech solution SS at 60lb, 28.5 inches. My arrows are 460 grain 350 spine with decent FOC. Anyone would think that with 200 grain total on the front that 350 spine would be ok but it’s just not the case. Opposite to you in this vid I’m all the way right with the cams and the rest is left of centre. I think the way the cam initially accelerates the arrow is huge. My bow has a long valley and what feels like 85 % letoff. There is no way it is imparting anything like the force into an arrow that a solution SR350 would with less letoff and no valley. I strongly suspect I actually need to soften my arrows for my poundage and cam type.

[@mat_in_texas]

That’s my goal, help the new guys learn this a little easier than I did. As for your set up, it’s interesting you’re almost completely opposite of what you think it should be. It might be the release you’re using, grip pressure or maybe that’s just what you bow likes. As long as it’s shooting well, that’s all that matters.

[@bbmas1930]

@@mat_in_texas Well after doing a bit of research it seems that Bowtech Solution SS's are pretty well known for needing the rest set left of centre and the cams off to the right. eg At the 'zero' position the cams actually start a bit right of centre between the limbs and can hardly be moved left. Also with the cams at zero, a 13/16th centre shot puts the arrow pointing out to the left. So it seems that my bow design will NOT appear 'down the middle' to shoot a correctly spined arrow. That was why I was starting to think I was overspined. At the end of the day you just have to be logical - it bullet holes consistently and only needed a cable guard tweak to get BH's and field points together at 50m after that, so my spine simply has to be correct. again, great channel.

[@mat_in_texas]

@@bbmas1930 that’s interesting to learn. I wonder what part of their design causes that.

[@Scaredofbees1]

Great info, did you reset your centershot after cranking the SET all the way left? Also, it would be great to see a follow up on checking for too stiff of spine.

[@mat_in_texas]

I did not. Didn’t think I needed to worry about it, but I should look. As for the stuff arrow idea, you can’t really be too stiff. Obviously if you’re 3 or 4 spines stiffer than you should be, you’ll notice it may not be a very forgiving set up, but if you’re even just a little weak, it’s easy to spot.

[@masonoertli4099]

Great video. What poundage did you end up with turning the bow down with two full cranks? Would be interesting to see to then know how far off the chart is and what the proper spine would be for the 60lb bow. Also curious what your draw length is?

[@mat_in_texas]

@@masonoertli4099 2 turns out on that bow puts it about 53-54 lbs. draw length is about 28 1/2”

[@thetintwizardsllc3128]

Good video man very good what kind of paper where you using for your paper tuning

[@mat_in_texas]

Just some craft paper my wife had left over from teaching school.

[@colingregory7464]

IF the random arrow is a random arrow and the NORMAL group is averaging a bit flat then that usually suggests that the nock point is a little bit low for the current setup !

[@mat_in_texas]

How does changing the nocking point affect the horizontal stringing at 50 yards?

[@colingregory7464]

Not sure why it is, maybe timing, maybe cam effect nock travel, maybe blade effect (if you use a blade it takes more weight at brace than at full draw so the blade bends more at brace and rises a little at full draw), maybe something shifted, maybe the brace gauge was read wrong, maybe it is just what your setup and your connection to it like for nock point. As a blade shooter I always run a slightly high nock as it seems to be more forgiving for me as a target/3d shooter (no blades ever !)

[@Joshtow167]

Good video

[@mat_in_texas]

@@Joshtow167 thank you

[@zache.1099]

Did you mention your point weight?? That would give you an obvious 340 spine according to that arrow chart, assuming you’re at 125gr +. Combine that with a dual bevel fixed blade, seems 340 minimum at 60lb. Maybe I missed it!?

[@mat_in_texas]

@@zache.1099 in this case, I was shooting 100 grain points.

[@liamboyle9199]

So this is interesting, what I have found on PSE Citations EMs is so far contradictory. Admittedly I am jumping in halfway but I will amend my comment as required. For context on two near identical Citation 40 EMs (poundage and draw length varied a lil bit but both around 52lb and 28.75 inches AMO) I was experiencing insanely right impacts with bareshafts. Now I will also say I do not believe you need bullet holes to perform well but for those familiar with 122cm Targets, at 20m I was out in the blue/red with both VAP TKO 400s (140gr point & 28.5C2C) and VAP 400s (120gr & 26.25C2C). This was so much horizontal movement I could see my arrows side-swiping back and forth down range hahaha; less noticeable on the VAPs due to less momentum and bigger vanes. So, in the end, I decided to correct this with a more inward centre shot and a small shim adjustment (slightly left of the factory from memory). All pointed towards a weak spine and this is where tuning gets a bit fiddly because there is no way in the world I was under spined I think the test of two very different arrows would support this as the standard VAP should be quite a bit stiffer than the VAP TKO I had but they impacted closely to one another. I spoke with Tim Gillingham about it and it simply boiled down to an alignment issue😀

[@mat_in_texas]

ya, sounds like something is out of alignment. When i run into funny things that don't seem to make sense, I usually stop and reset everything back to factory spec and start over.

[@rogercutting8850]

Easton arrow mag makes a great arrow spine / to bow weight chart you can find on line . Learn how to paper tune an arrow to the bow.

[@mat_in_texas]

Are you saying I didn’t paper tune correctly?

[@perrythacker2292]

Seems to me that for a good scientific test, you would have set your bow back to zero and tried a stiffer arrow. Just to test your theory. Would that have yielded the same results as making all the adjustments?

[@mat_in_texas]

@@perrythacker2292 I have another video that I do exactly that. It’s the 400 versus 300 spine video.

[@Joshtow167]

That stabilizer get any longer u wont need a bow lol

[@mat_in_texas]

@@Joshtow167 😂

[@ryan31100]

Nock left does not always mean too weak. Depends on a lot more than spine alone.

[@mat_in_texas]

Correct, there could be other things affecting it. But if you’ve corrected the other things (like torquing the bow) this could explain why your arrows don’t fly well. I know that on occasion, a bow will leave the factory with mismatched limbs, but that’s a whole different topic.

[@ryan31100]

@@mat_in_texas I’m RH and stiff was actually nock left. Shooting through paper with same arrow over and over again and only thing I would change was point weight. As I increased point weight I got a more nock right tear and as I reduced point weight I got more of a nock left tear. Also tested this by keeping point weight consistent and again using same arrow started cutting it down by a full inch at a time and it got more and more nock left. No I’m not torquing the bow to cause this…been working in multiple shops across the country for years.

[@mat_in_texas]

@@ryan31100 interesting, what bow was this? Does this happen with all your bows?

[@ryan31100]

@@mat_in_texas PSE Xpedite NXT EC cam 27.5” draw 71# w/ the FL mods @75% Same results with an Evoke 31 EC same specs

[@ryan31100]

Easton Sonics 340s started at 26” Carbon to carbon ended at around 24.75” carbon to carbon with Easton 75gn brass and 100gn FT/BH. 4 fletch Q2I fusion XII vanes. Super drive 19 pin bushings w/ bohning smooth release pin nocks

[@johnbottone4996]

Have you ever checked your arrows with a spine tester (they are all ! Over spine!!!)

[@mat_in_texas]

@@johnbottone4996 I have not. I don’t have one or know anyone with one.

[@Nitro2Nitro]

Trigger punch

[@mat_in_texas]

@@Nitro2Nitro I HAVE NEVER PUNC….did you say punch? Yes, yes I tend to punch….

[@KevinMillard68]

the problem i see with your setup is your arrow is inside your riser at full draw and that can also lead to not only very dangerous but also throw out your spine.. . also keep in mind any wind will also throw out your windage as well. i just set up a new fast eddie xl on my mathews and 20 and 30 yards for sure my windafe is perfect but once you ho out even more the windage goes to hell and that is expected at distance.. the other problem people have is to weak of poundage and i had to crank up my poundage to to get my 60 yards.but windage was still off due to wind but all my arrows no matter what always land dead straight.. bare shaft tuning by they was is an unneeded waste of timefor compound uses that are doing general target shooting and hunting unless your running .0001 straightness and most shoot .006 to .003 only anything more then that is wasting money on on arrows, i have to agree tho the charts are total BS i was running 500 spine and now run 400 spine with 340s they need alot more power then i can even pull right now and rightnow my hunting bow is at about 60 lbs .. you last results will spread out alot more once you get to 40 plus yards to and with wind even more.. thats where heavy arrows will have to start to come in at longer range to avoid drift .. my main hunting bow tho really does not like 500 spine either way, i run a mathews mission hammr its a sweet bow .. either way even at 60lbs its not going to kill anything at 60 yards no power left and most hunters hunt with in 35 yards or less less is better ..

[@josephr1198]

All the well known big name archery influencers want you to trust the industry, and rely on the proshops, but IME the industry and the average proshops will set you up to fail, on certain aspects.

[@mat_in_texas]

@@josephr1198 I think in an effort to be somewhat efficient, bow shops just throw guts into an average instead of actually getting archers set up. You’re shooting 60 lbs? here’s a 400 spine. 70 lbs? here’s a 340. Good luck.

[@ericnewman971]

So you are saying the arrow shows weakness, so you move the cam. Haha, if an arrow is weak, moving the cam is not how you correct this. You increase the arrow's spine. It has been known for years that bow-side tears are not spine-related in a compound. As you have just proven that fact.

[@mat_in_texas]

@@ericnewman971 You are correct that moving the cam doesn’t change the arrow spine, but being able to use the adjustability in the bow MAY allow you to shoot a weaker spine arrow. The purpose of the video was to highlight situations that are going to indicate you need to move up in spine. Maxing out your cam adjustability is definitely a red flag that you need a stiffer spine.

[@ericnewman971]

@@mat_in_texas, thanks for the reply.

[@ImaOkie]

Just curious...why are your arrow shafts so short ? With a broadhead on the end that would put razor blades on top of your fingers . Is that safe ? I wouldn't feel safe .

[@mat_in_texas]

@@ImaOkie it’s a target bow, only shot the Broadhead out of it just to demonstrate