6 Mile Rural PTP Link

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In this video, we take a look at a possible PTP scenario that covers about 6 miles (~10Km). Will it work? Watch the video to find out!
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[@sjdtmv]

I have been down this road, and finally built 2 solar powered repeater stations, first link from the internet end is 12Km using airfiber 5 on top of a hill and the next leg being 6Km also on top of a hill using Airmax 5AC equipment, and finally a 2Km link using a Litebeam AP AC, now my neighbours and me share the link and all are happy with the result, been running now for a couple of years

[@Tntdruid]

Thanks for adding km/m 👍

[@goommer]

Here in Brazil I ran a private 5km fiber between 2 cities (home and office) for about 4 thousand dollars, all including labor, posts and permits. Rural areas in Brazil are being “flourished” with fiber through private investments. I also leased 2 pairs of fiber within the same cable to the local internet provider so it’ll amortize some of the cost.

[@lawrencemayne1906]

Mauricio I think I just got a hardon for Brazilian development...

[@jamesmandl9302]

A possible way to find existing towers that have some height to them would be to look at some aircraft charts. Many are listed for structure avoidance and most times they will list the height of the tower.

[@ulkesh78]

Man this tool would have made my life SOOO much easier if it existed a decade ago. Tried to get a PTP link going 12 miles using 100' towers. This gives headings and everything. Very sweet!

[@guytech7310]

Issue with large towers or dark fiber is getting permits. Poles\towers over 60 ft usually require a permit requiring a county approved study (ie big $$$). For Fiber its going to cost a bundle to trench & need permits, Aerial (Public utility telephone poles) would require the utility operator to approve and there will likely be a annual leasing cost. My recommendation would be to do three 60ft poles and find a local farmer that wants free internet. Put a middle pole as a relay on a property near or around the hills.

[@beech5454]

I like this idea. Do you have any idea how much maintenance, if any, needs to be done at the middle location?

[@guytech7310]

@@beech5454 Probably next to nothing for maintenance. Only issue may be power availability and reliability if its on farm property as thunderstorms can disrupt power. Ideally some sort of small UPS would work. A pair or transcievers and a small switch would probably use 20Ws or less. You maybe able to power all of the equipment via 24VDC or 48VDC if you use all PoE powered devices. You can buy long telephone poles. Much easier & cheaper than a metal tower that will need a concrete pad. I bought a 65 ft telephone pole for about $1700 a few years ago and hired a local crane guy to raise it for about $250. Rented a 24" x 6' auger to dig the hole for the pole. Bought an Hoffman outdoor electrical enclosure to hold the switch and other components (not related to network comms).

[@JeremyCulbreath]

I have a possible solution. There is a 480 AGL tower in Berlin. Coordinates put it at 40.555879, -81.783442. I can't find the tower operator in a quick search, but it probably wouldn't take a lot of footwork for a local. Given a 30ft client height, 158ft up the tower clears the Fresnel zone to the Berlin location. 120ft for 50% clearance theoretically works; but I'd certainly go higher. The Wineburg location may be further, but it's clear at 64ft. Depending on lease costs, this still may not be a viable solution. There are a few other towers in the area, but this is the best candidate I could find.

[@realifethunder]

One thing that is worth pointing out is the fresnel zone, and even though you may have clear LOS, if it is just barely getting LOS, you could still have issues.

[@rancidbeef582]

Bet a ham operator already has a repeater tower on the highest point around. Might be able to piggy-back on their tower. Then again, I don't know how many Amish ham radio operators there are :-)

[@EdwinRoux]

2x 12m towers - sure there are other similar routes, getting deployment permission, but way cheaper than 36m towers... 40.574491,-81.821104 to (660 ft) 40.574874,-81.818819

[@CrosstalkSolutions]

I love that you're doing the research on this one - nice job!

[@beech5454]

This is great information. I'm the person that has been fighting with this issue. In winesburg we are currently getting speeds of about 5 down and 2 up. Frontier would like to "improve" that by giving us a 5 by 5 dsl line for 500 a month locked in for 3 years. A local cable company is close but not too the location. They will make a special run to us for 10k install with a 5 year contract at 1k a month. It's incredibly frustrating because these ISP's are screwing us simply because they can.

[@scooterjes]

You might be able to subsidize the cost of a tower if a local business want to but a 2 way radio antenna on there as well depending on the cell coverage at the lower site i have heard of the local/national cell company might to rent space on it as a local node just options.

[@nathantaylor680]

@Matt Beechy If you could get access to put up a tower at the highest mid point you can run the equipment off of batteries and solar. No need to bring in power. I've got a wifi mesh at a lake this way. Going on 4 yrs and still working. Also you can probably find a tower much cheaper then 5k. Look in to the ham radio classified. Craiglist. Also look up clubs in your area. arrl.org is a good place to find clubs in ur area.

[@CrosstalkSolutions]

One of the guys in our Discord channel recommended checking out Horizon ISP - if you look at their fiber map, they are VERY close to your cities - it may only be a matter of time before you have fiber. It may be worth calling them up to let them know there is a good amount of interest in the area. www.horizonconnects.com/network-map

[@bearhandedheff]

Fellow Ohioan! Any idea if spectrum services Mt. Hope? You might be able to rent space on one of the taller buildings or a grain elevator around there to for a short tower / pole to get LoS to your Winesburg location and to your Berlin location as well.

[@sorensolveig599]

You should have also discussed the Fresnel Clearance Zone along the pathway, and discuss trees and man-made obstructions. Good video for Part 1. Part 2 covers these more advanced topics?

[@CaseySer]

It would also depend on how the customer calculates ROI. If it's in the same year, no $20k will not work. But within 10 years (7.2 based on $230/mo) it would start to pay for itself. These numbers obviously do not include maintenance, etc.

[@scrag_3]

Those yellow lines on the web page are what is known as a Fresnel zone. It is very important to account for.

[@Act1veSp1n]

For 30k you can probably pull in a fiber line if he asks his ISP. Or just ask your neighbour to see if they have better internet and do air internet with them.

[@TheZhriver]

One of my clients just got a qoute for 150K if he wanted a fiber.

[@madezra64]

@@TheZhriver This would be a dedicated circuit though right? Damn shame it still costs that much...

[@beech5454]

Running a line to the Winesburg location would cost 70k over 5 years when you factor in the contract that they're requiring. The ISP's around here are not playing games.

[@Act1veSp1n]

@@beech5454 I would assume it would cost less because they already have DSL lines in there. I'm not a telco engineer, but we got our fiber in Downtown Vancouver for 5K. No fiber exists in whole downtown currently. So I assume they pulled it through the same place where they got DSL from because they did not open up the road.

[@Act1veSp1n]

@@beech5454 That would be 1.16K / month for 5 years. If it is really needed and they own that location it would be an ok purchase. If NOT having good internet costs them money - they should go for it. Our company spent 3 years on bonded internet because we were getting weird quotes (10-20k). Recently we got a different company and it was only 5K. The amount of time we lost on having issues with internet was not worth it - we should have gone for it earlier.

[@rafaelbs4832]

This tool is amazing, but you need to mind that the satelite topology is not so accurate, sometimes there's a 30m margin and also those hilltops have trees. In this very same tool the best way to find a point in the middle is the ptmp mode.

[@sammoore9689]

I did this in Saudi, and it worked for 5 years, then a hotel went in, and totally blocked the signal.

[@highfidelityinc]

Wow, thanks for the video. Didn't even know that Ubiquiti had such a tool. FYI: If you want to look for towers to lease a space on, a good place to go is wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/AsrSearch/asrRegistrationSearch.jsp Key in your GPS location and it will give you all the towers in the area and their contact information. Bare in mind however to lease a spot on a tower usually starts at about $500/month and works up from there depending on where you want to be on the tower. Then there are permitting, engineering fees, installation cost, equipment cost, and etc that can easily exceed $10K. And, no, the tower operator won't let you climb on the tower. Rather you have to hire one of their RF engineers to do the installation. At least that is what I found out when I looked into it. To lease space on a cell tower, assuming they will even talk to you, is very expensive and from what I hear is usually about $1500/month. You are better off looking for an independent tower operator whose business model is to lease space on the tower to anyone.

[@Jatsotserah]

We were waiting for action, Chris. We thought you were out to fulfill this. BTW, Km/m are the metrics we like to see. Thanks

[@TheAhmedvienna]

For 30k I would just pull out a new fiber line.

[@dwaynedroid]

I used to do this sort of link routinely when I worked for a WISP. We used 3Com 900 MHz/2.4GHz gear (long obsolete, but similar to Cambium 450's) and were able to get 20km shots at 400Mb/s. I doubt all of the gear put together plus a year's tower rental cost more that $10k, and that site served hundreds of people and several other towers. This was around 2005 when even the idea of Metro area nets was new.

[@tomwhite9128]

Yeah, you're not going to go 6 miles with fiber for 30K...

[@kristopherleslie8343]

Nope more like 50k and chances are a site survey would yield some interesting facts

[@GarrettReardon]

​@@kristopherleslie8343 just went though having fiber ran in Florida. Based off of what we paid you're looking at upwards of $130k to run six miles of fiber with no obstacles in the way and clear right of way usage. If you can't access existing conduit at intersections, add another $20k per intersection. That's before you start dealing with the city or county. If both cities have public schools in them you'd save hundreds of thousands of dollars by using the fiber that's laid connecting the schools and then going from there to each location.

[@kristopherleslie8343]

Garrett Reardon sounds about right

[@crazysquirrel9425]

Ever check into 'private internet'? It is a private internet for those on it (doesn't use cable or phone lines). Only one or two need regular internet access for the normal web access. It is decentralized too.

[@sjdtmv]

I would be looking at a mid point that you can ask a local to put a repeater on there roof, i would be looking at a point somewhere like 40.56247525912166,-81.79750120762668 this point will see both places with a little as 20 feet off the ground

[@fiaziqbal3279]

Hey there great video. I've one question can we connect host unit with WiFi router, usb tethering or hotspot to share cellular internet?

[@cordinarcher1054]

If you spent the money on building those towers in each location, you could then rent space on your tower out to others. I've heard that sometimes wireless ISPs or even cellular service companies, (Verizon, T-mobile etc.) will lease space on your tower. If you could grab a couple tenants for your tower, that would help with the ROI no?

[@garygrobard4095]

Zoning may not allow for the construction of such towers as well.

[@CrosstalkSolutions]

Very good point.

[@luckynefolovhodwe3381]

Great information thanks a lot and just one question where can i get fresnel simulation software in South Africa

[@markajoseph1980]

I've used large tethered balloons to get a temporary link to a local horse show in the past

[@algheroman6476]

Good opportunity to become a WISP and justify the investment. Many have started their business this way... Even become a Ubiquiti reseller maybe...

[@amrnassef5344]

Another option would probably be a 4g lte modem if all they want is internet and voip ( I'm not sure about in the US but usually you could pay minimal extra fees to get voip optimization or something like that from your carrier )and from a quick googling would have a ~$150 monthly payments excluding the modem. (would probably just buy a quality one for around $500 )

[@CrosstalkSolutions]

This is a good suggestion.

[@gianthogweedvideo]

I deal with a number of construction sites in remote locations and often have to use 4G because of lack of services in the area. The big problem with using 4G is cost. Once you go over whatever monthly max there is, the cost per gig is pricey. Recently, I’ve ended up using satellite. There are some business options out there now with unlimited data plans and 35/5 speeds that are better than bonded DSL. I’ve done more short range PTP links but looking at a longer range one for a project we support in Florida. Great video.

[@CraigMullins1]

@@gianthogweedvideo unlimited satellite? Got a provider name? What's monthly cost?

[@gianthogweedvideo]

@@CraigMullins1 ViaSat (Exede) - I think the plan is called Unlimited 35. Cost is $175 month. Now there are a few catches. The data is unlimited, but if you exceed 75GB in a month, they have the right to "throttle" your usage during peak times, as they put it. I've honestly never had complaints from the users so I'm not sure when they actually have throttled. And I know we regularly exceed that amount. Also, it's satellite, so all YMMV as to real performance. When I've tested, generally have seen 35/4 with about 50-60 on latency. So not bad for interior Florida.

[@amrnassef5344]

@@gianthogweedvideo Yeah I have to deal with lte data caps myself so I know dearly about it, but I believe some small time regional carriers do offer truly unlimited lte and I was referencing to those.

[@madbirds]

I would recommend trying to use a cellular network att has great plan if att is good for only 35 or 40 bucks that u could use and I got great speeds I was able to use 1.6tb so business would work just fine. would only be 200 for the hotspot plus all the other networking equipment you want.

[@flyingmonkey3315]

Yeah 10k per side is a pretty good estimate. I mean, you could put sectors on the business side and provide service to some people to get some return but that a whole other business you'd be getting into.

[@jacobustaljaard5087]

If cost is a factor, consider using the PowerBeam 5AC Gen2, I did a 10km/6m P2MP and link is stable @ 300Mbps

[@toTo-oe9pd]

Rural or urban

[@jonmoore1614]

I mean this is fairly old, but Starlink is a thing now. Also you may be the only tower in the area, renting out space on your tower, you could actually make money on it after a time.

[@jtveg]

Thanks for sharing. 😉👌🏼 Although "obstacle" is not spelled with an "i" 5:45

[@biodunsalami1102]

Good day crosstalk: please how can overcome interference and obstructs using cambium as point to point for a distance of 14km in Lagos State. Nigeria.

[@gauravzerogravity]

is there any simulation to check LOS available on the internet for free

[@antimosh]

Doing a dog leg link this week. airLink is handy software.

[@kristopherleslie8343]

Chris in Alabama I thought about doing that to a client but then found out you have to pay a license fee for certain heights that your building goes past. Interested to see.how thiis install goes

[@nellermann]

Find local WISP and or go with Cellular Router (4G LTE) at that site to augment your DSL. Or build your own WISP if there are just not good provider options!

[@dtech2041]

I make link between turkey and Syria It's about 60Km and transfer about 500mbs 😑 And

[@showmequick2245]

ضرار حبار proof?

[@corerouterbgp7758]

suuuuuuuuure it is :D

[@muroojn7997]

How to make a simulation to check for example datarate, throughput, packet loss, etc. for these equipments

[@iamscoutstfu]

your discord link is down m8. I'd like to ask a few questions about ptp using mobile hotspots.

[@hayderal-amily7848]

can I use UNBT equipment for sending E1 signals? or there are other types of equipment?

[@isamaru01]

Hi I will like to know what router yo use at home for your personal use thank you for your time

[@macexpert7247]

If you find a mid point on a elevated location with fiber with a little more hardware you can offer internet service to others and get some ROI

[@looseycanon]

If they wanted to expand to Mt. Hope, everywhere south of FCBank is game for a relay. Not perfect LoS, but sufficient.

[@richardborlandhodson]

Hey Chris. Thanks for this and all your other great video demonstrations. I have almost exactly the same situation but may have access to the missing "middle tower" (actually another building). Could you make a video showing the topography for this? I am imagining two Litebeams in the middle connected "back to back" by ethernet (with POE). Is this correct? Thanks so much. Richard

[@dhyde9207]

We recently put up an 11GHz PTP link with Cambium 820C's that is a touch over 8 miles and it works great. Is that supposed to be difficult to do??

[@johnlange8729]

Is that a Yealink T-46 on your desk? Hmm?

[@leodanterustia4116]

add another tower.. as bridge to connect at point B

[@shaktipatil]

Excellent information 👍🏼

[@jamesmcintyre9985]

Well done video. Does the simulator take into account terrain height or terrain height PLUS the trees and buildings along the path?

[@vichere1431]

placing towers/obstructions do need to run and store FAA TowAir results to clear the height. If TowAir fails, you need an formal FAA study.

[@angrybatvoice]

What is your recommendation on aiming the radios when you have line of sight but the distance means you can't actually see the endpoint?

[@dwaynedroid]

Put a person at each end, give them the compass heading for the other person, have tower A point as close as possible to that heading. Have tower B do the same. Check for Signal to Noise Ratio as one tower sweeps back and forth in tiny, pausing increments. When that tower gets the best possible db reading, lock it down and have the other tower sweep in the same way. Repeat back and forth until you can't get a better signal.

[@angrybatvoice]

@@dwaynedroid Other person... yeah... gonna need to budget for one of those... ouch...

[@markdejong1984]

I would consider LTE as a possibility as well.

[@kj-47]

What is the model number of the devices being used to go point to point in this video?

[@DannyMullen]

Hey Chris, suggestion when possible can you post links in the description when possible. Helps guys like me when I can’t write them down when watching.

[@mrmotofy]

haha Pause button

[@cfisupply]

Good video. Yes, building a tower is expensive, but one thing to keep in mind is if you go to rent space on an existing tower... That can also be expensive. Tower companies near me have given me estimates of $1k a month for 3 sector antennas for a public service, not-for-profit project.

[@avlimburg]

If you calculate it back, it is an investment that earns back within 10 years and no more struggles during those years.

[@cfisupply]

@@avlimburg agreed!

[@cesarporsche]

Thank you for converting always to km!?

[@muriirageofrey8208]

Which is the best app (android or windows) to use to determine a line of sight

[@subwarpspeed]

If they managed to do PTP, could there be something in their contract for Berkin site preventing them from doing it? Like pay twice. If I'm the ISP and it's flatrate it would possible be more expensive for me with peering if the I get more data traffic from the same site. To the extreme if every business starts being their own underground ISP. Just to voice this that it could be a performance saving, not big cost saving.

[@PaulE4213]

I did a similar setup between buildings, but closer for a temporary setup until Charter/Spectrum could run new service to the location. When I ordered service I told them that I was going to do this and they had no problem. Usually it is OK as long as you are not re-selling service to others, that requires a different agreement.

[@azkaaldric3608]

i think that output power is unreal

[@kroskopf]

Eventually they'll have stable/fast internet at the current DSL location. This problem will solve itself with some time.

[@212MPH]

How come you never include your path budgets ? Outside the USA we have significant rain fall, it's also very very important when standing up multiple PTP links to avoid channel bleed over.

[@jaimeruelasreverter8344]

Excelent video. I allways learn something in the chanell.

[@frankluo230]

What about mobile broadband with external antenna? They are 10x faster than DSL and cost less

[@imperialdoggo5826]

Distance.

[@spyfun855]

Hello sir.... Can I use this bridge for 20 km

[@TheKi11erj]

How do trees affect these links

[@dwaynedroid]

It depends on the frequency of the signal. Lower the better for penetration through trees. 900Mhz tolerates some leaves in line of sight down to 600Mhz which can go through buildings. Lower frequency usually means lower bandwidth though. 900MHz can do around 500Mb/s.

[@AfifAhmad]

Getting a dark fibre circuit built will probably be a better option

[@imperialdoggo5826]

Why would the ISP do that?

[@Basshead89]

Over 150 feet and you need FAA approval too!

[@dhyde9207]

Actually, it's anything over 200 feet, not 150.

[@GotWire]

I would do it sounds really cool Haha and if you can find a mid point sounds like it would save ya some money time wise at the other location waiting on the slow dsl

[@a.hakemalsadee9897]

Hi..please help me. I want to make ptp connections over hundred km - (110) km distance.. which device should i used.. Thank you...

[@johnheller2311]

You would need suitable towers or other high spots to mount equipment at several locations along the path

[@imperialdoggo5826]

You need some serious ISP only stuff.

[@godblessmariki8832]

for me i advice to use NANOBRIGE NBM900 PTP

[@subagon]

Maybe find a third location to serve as a relay point to avoid the hills.

[@subwarpspeed]

Maybe watch the entire video :-)

[@itninja9503]

Site B already had a tower...?

[@hunseder]

What happened to your normal HD video? It's 360p max for me. Flashback day?

[@ismaelzz]

Just refresh.

[@CrosstalkSolutions]

Normally I schedule my videos which gives KZbin plenty of time to process the higher resolutions - if it's not in full HD, just wait a bit and try again.

[@yligarza]

They can now get a Starlink Internet Service for $99 a month and try a VPN from one building from another.

[@imperialdoggo5826]

Starlink is absolutely useless against PtP. PtP can rival Fiber.

[@trick0502]

Who made your into music? I heard it on another channel today.

[@CrosstalkSolutions]

My main theme came from the KZbin DRM free music library - but all of my other music comes from Epidemic Sound.

[@goommer]

Maybe run a private fiber could be cheaper, or find a place to do a triangulation.

[@andrewashby1553]

Have they looked at WISP's in the area

[@MitchFromSyd]

coming back to this in 2023... Starlink lol

[@HAL9000-B]

Or just build a small solar-powered tower on the highest visible hill and use it as Repeater/Relay. Assuming you get permission on the property, this will cost you under 1000usd :D

[@tedev]

buy two drones with large battery.... mount a Nanobeam 5AC Gen2 on them and just make them go up and look at each other.... BOOM! it might sound funny.... but that would be AN AWESOME proof of concept if it can be done for 20 minutes :) who has 2 drones and wants to play?

[@shoaibarshad39]

hahahah

[@mrmotofy]

Except aiming them would be nearly impossible. Can't we just have an internet blimp haha

[@bradleystannard3492]

Amazing video but youtube decided 1080P is not fun. 144p here we go!

[@CrosstalkSolutions]

When a video is first uploaded to KZbin, it can take a bit to process it to full HD...check back in a bit and I'm sure it'll be fine.

[@lawrencemayne1906]

Maybe use a third point. Or plant some big growing trees adjacent.

[@VacationGetaways]

6 year for ROI 300 month (maybe) $3,600 a year, times 6 years $21,600

[@geogmz8277]

Spectrum great Internet? 🤔

[@philliptanner1079]

I guess I have to be the bad news guy. Sharing of internet even if for the same business is most likely a violation of the providers TOS. Generally broadband is for a single address. As a consultant it is your duty to warn potential customers of such issues and operate in an ethical manor. If on your advice this person created a point to point like or established a multi-hop link you could be held liable. CYA....ALWAYS

[@StarWarsCosplay]

Another thumbs up from me. :-).

[@antoniomanuelfidalgo7565]

Great....tks

[@GeoFry3]

Find a little old lady nearby that can get the better internet. Offer her free internet plus $50 a month and do a much shorter bridge.

[@motofan16]

Now is 2021, they can simply get a Starlink.

[@imperialdoggo5826]

Starlink is nothing compared to PtP.

[@JoeyArnold7]

Imperial? Really?

[@marakaantony280]

Nice one. #Kenya

[@rjdp3]

200$/ month for DSL uau it's diferent. In Europe I pay 30€/ month for 200mbps 100% Fiber connection.

[@Bryan-Hensley]

That's expensive for fiber.

[@princephillips1839]

Hi

[@kc8hnz]

Wrong, so wrong. Towers are beautiful.

[@MrAlekoy]

Befrend the farmer that has this farm, goo.gl/maps/PUJpeUW3wuWM5JgH7 install two airFiber 5XHD at the top of his highest building :)

[@MrAlekoy]

link.ui.com/#p=dfdfedd6209e42908f1a680600c7c383