650 Grain Arrows and 50% of Bone Breaking Threshold (with Dr. Ed)

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Ranch Fairy

Ranch Fairy

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 277
@bikerbrandon1
@bikerbrandon1 4 ай бұрын
Thank you so much for putting vid3os on here that actually educate instead of talking out your ass like alot of other guys do on KZbin. Keep em coming!
@justinsalzl1517
@justinsalzl1517 4 ай бұрын
I listened to the full interview. Very insightful. Thanks for putting all this together, Troy!
@JohnBuchin
@JohnBuchin 4 ай бұрын
Been doing a Lot of arrow sciencing, with lots of help from my friend Thom and a lot of Mr Ashby's info, as well as the informative videos you have put out Troy. I have come up with a 816g average arrows, footed, 450g (including footing) up front carbon arrow using either an Abowyer Bonehead broadhead or a 3:1 head. I think they are about 27% FOC. Just shooting and tuning there is a noticable difference in quietness of the bow (61# longbow) but also how consistant they shoot, adding a forgiveness to archers release flaws as well. Funny as much push back as some fellow archers give me about the EFOC build, its only about 75 to 100g more than my typical wood arrow setup... guys are just to hell bent on speed. Ferrari vs Freight Train at a brick wall. Keep up the good work sir.
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
Might I inquire about Thom's last name? Might it be Jorgenson? You touch on some often overlooked, important (for the hunter) aspects of arrow design, such as the silence of the shot and forgiveness of arrow release (especially under the stress of a hunting shot at an animal).
@JohnBuchin
@JohnBuchin 4 ай бұрын
@@OldDerelict you are correct. Thom and I have had several convos over some foem of campfire about the bennies of of modern carbon vs current woods, or other shafting options.
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
@@JohnBuchin I killed a lot of game with hardwood and Sweetland Forgewood shafts. Modern shafting material has numerous advantages but some drawbacks. Though it can be achieved, making modern shafting as strong and damage-resistant as hardwood shafts (not including cedar or softer arrow woods) is challenging. I have worked on that for years, and it is an ongoing project ABF is currently working on.
@Glaciershark
@Glaciershark 4 ай бұрын
I like Ed’s holster. He is pretty cool.
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
It's a DeSantis Criss Cross holster.
@nickrose1778
@nickrose1778 4 ай бұрын
A good series of videos. Ed's a classic. Cheers
@tomkielbasinski5462
@tomkielbasinski5462 4 ай бұрын
Awesome stuff man! Thank you for doing this
@bogg54
@bogg54 4 ай бұрын
Appreciate ya T-roy!
@LongBowMan89
@LongBowMan89 4 ай бұрын
Dr.Ed is the man 🏹
@DETERWEBER
@DETERWEBER 4 ай бұрын
I shoot 700+ grains high foc.Its deadly,literal darts.They also tune better for me.
@F14Goose37
@F14Goose37 4 ай бұрын
Dude, I have an Arizona archery elk hunt starting tomorrow and shame on me, I allowed myself to prioritize other things and was not fully ready for the hunt. So I was doing a lot of shooting today and what should have been some fine tuning before tomorrow. Well I ended up shooting well after I was fatigued and put not one, but two broadhead tipped arrows in a tree behind my target at about 58 yards. I cut them out, put one on a new shaft and just spin tested the other one. They both spun well, sharpened up and are within seven grains of their 250 grain starting weight, and impact where they should at least out to 50yds. Still capable backup arrows. The impressive part was they were both buried up to the insert in that ponderosa pine at that range. I have no doubts my setup will do its job should something go wrong. Arrows are 250 spine FMJs(those evil FMJs) with the standard nock, AAE vanes at a 5 degree helix, 75 grain half out stainless inserts and a 250 grain Cutthroat LH single bevel two blade. They weigh 660 grains and have about 16% FOC.
@ethan....
@ethan.... 3 ай бұрын
Do you know what your FPS is?
@F14Goose37
@F14Goose37 3 ай бұрын
@@ethan.... Slow. Current combo is probably 230-240. My bow shoots my 770 grain indoor target arrows at 218fps. I shot my chronograph though with a similar combo to what I have now, just with 50 grains less in the point. Arrow blew through the steel body of the chronograph and just left behind the nock. That was shooting 243fps though.
@ArchersAnonymous-nb4ym
@ArchersAnonymous-nb4ym 4 ай бұрын
OldDerelict himself answering KZbin comments, can we all appreciate how awesome that is?
@zhickman338
@zhickman338 4 ай бұрын
I think what a lot of people are going to miss is that the bone breaching was done with an Ashby style head. Anything modern or with more cutting diameter isn’t going to get the same results. So someone has to go all in on this system.
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
Correct.
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
@@zhickman338 just so ya know. That was Dr ed replying…..”old derelict”
@sunchips11
@sunchips11 4 ай бұрын
​@@RanchFairy@OldDerelict, given that, is there any research on what the bone breaking threshold is for single bevels such as the standard Tuffheads and RF single bevels?
@jasonaud2359
@jasonaud2359 4 ай бұрын
Hey fairy you got any info on this broadhead ratio? Did i miss an episode talkin about this? i would like to understand that more
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 3 ай бұрын
@@jasonaud2359 It is in the Ashby reports. Ashby bow hunting website. 3:1 ratio 3 inches long by 1” wide. Tuffhead makes the closest thing.
@C-23_
@C-23_ 4 ай бұрын
We should just call Ed papa fairy
@hrkjcl1
@hrkjcl1 4 ай бұрын
After watching some of your videos I went from about 430 arrow and went up to about 500 grains. I wanted to make sure it went through well enough
@AliceWilson-w9m
@AliceWilson-w9m 3 ай бұрын
Good man. That'll make your shots more humane. Hunting with drinking straws is inhumane. Heavier arrows get the job done quickly.
@hrkjcl1
@hrkjcl1 3 ай бұрын
@@AliceWilson-w9m since I also like speed i shoot an APA black mamba pro so it carries the arrow very fast. So win win lol
@AliceWilson-w9m
@AliceWilson-w9m 3 ай бұрын
@@hrkjcl1 the surprising thing is that the Ranch Fairy was getting pass throughs on animals shooting about 200 FPS or lower with heavier arrows. That was very surprising. Flies in the face of what is preached about in hunting circles. An arrow with more mass blows through bone if necessary which will happen. 650+ total grains is the magic number.
@hrkjcl1
@hrkjcl1 3 ай бұрын
@@AliceWilson-w9m I get that due to how bullets work. So the ballistics make sense. Kinda like using a 223 vs a 50 bmg lol
@outdoorsman9384
@outdoorsman9384 4 ай бұрын
Let's put it this if you don't consider heavy 650 grain arrow and with all the factors matching, it's your own dam fault, I learned this from Dr Ashby in traditional bowhunting magazine many moons ago , didn't hesitate on this variable, it's been a game changer from that moment on. If you snooze you lose.
@kevinmeeske3412
@kevinmeeske3412 4 ай бұрын
Excellent Thank you
@policaroc
@policaroc Ай бұрын
The only thing left to say is “boom” 🤯 8:34
@sidogg4113
@sidogg4113 4 ай бұрын
I broke the opposite side leg bone in half with a 446 grain arrow with a magnus black hornet head out of the package. I shoot 60lbs and a 27’ draw. Broke the leg bone in half and arrow penetrated through the other side. That’s a whitetail. You don’t need 650 for whitetail unless you hit the humorous bone.
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
@@sidogg4113 Here we go again, CNN your one shot experience and it becomes the absolute FACT. TO BE CLEAR on what Ed said “there’s a lower percentage chance” NOT zero chance. But when you get to 650 it’s 100% bone breaching….. Again Ed did not say it’s a zero sum game at 650. It’s not a bone breaching light switch. 5,000 shots 113 data points per shot 30 year study. It’s not a small data set compared to 1 deer where everything “worked out”
@LtDan-bb1xr
@LtDan-bb1xr 4 ай бұрын
@@RanchFairy "5,000 shots 113 data points per shot 30 year study" That was on normal sized whitetail deer?
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
@@LtDan-bb1xr Smart ass - here’s the facts from Ed ashby HIMSELF - I asked him to do mail me the answer . Good luck with your next stupid question. 🤦 You can at least rest on the fact I was wrong 118 data points - not 113 so fillet me on that! "The database has approximately 5,000 test shot records (not including 'focal study' shots looking at a specific arrow/broadhead feature), which comprise shots on animals from Impala, whitetail, and pig size up to Cape and Asian buffalo. There is also a database of actual bow kills on similar-sized animals, which now approaches 700 shot records. We use the 'actual kills' database as a cross-reference to be sure that the testing outcomes accurately reflect the outcomes of actual hunting shots. We also have reports of hunting results sent in by multiple individuals, which number into the thousands. Antidotal information from other hunters is scoured for any useful trends that have been reported (such as the interesting fact that hunters shooting compound bows with draw weight of 70# and below report a significantly higher number of complete passthrough shots on Cape and Asian buffalo than do hunters shooting compound bows of higher draw weight). As should be evident, there are many types of 'heavy bone' hits for which we have very detailed information. My original Study database tracked 118 data points on every shot, and the new testing database (2021 and forward) tracks 250 data points per shot. The databases are searchable, so we can compare the heavy bone penetration rate on impala and whitetail-sized animals to the heavy-bone penetration rate on buffalo rib shots, which are equal when the shot angle and bone impact angle are the same."
@LtDan-bb1xr
@LtDan-bb1xr 4 ай бұрын
@@RanchFairy lol, I'd rather be a smartass than a dumbass 😉😉😉. So you should have just said "no". Don't hate the player, hate the game. SMH...
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
@@LtDan-bb1xr See pinned comment at top that I posted
@justinkelley4984
@justinkelley4984 4 ай бұрын
What animal bone was the study performed on? Pigs? The bone density is different for different animals. Wondering what the “threshold” would be for just whitetail deer?
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 3 ай бұрын
When we extract data for whitetail deer only, the Heavy Bone Threshold remains the same, 650 grains.
@gradyfuller4880
@gradyfuller4880 4 ай бұрын
Great information. I think the sliding scale of 650gr 12 factors arrow breaching heavy bone consistently. Probably has a lot to do with the variation between animals. Even though the two Cape buffalo might look or weigh the same their genetics might make one’s bones a little more dense. I think it would be a great test to with the lighter arrows that still have a higher FOC and a better broadhead.
@ryanmay8721
@ryanmay8721 4 ай бұрын
When my kids ask why my arrows are so heavy, compared to there's. I compare it to the difference in a baseball and a blitzball/wiffleball, being thrown the same pitcher... which one hits harder and goes farther???
@jeffhays1968
@jeffhays1968 4 ай бұрын
I worked so hard to get my arrows to 625 grains. You are gonna make me cry now
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 3 ай бұрын
@@jeffhays1968 At or near 650. With an adult broadhead you’ll be fine
@jeffhays1968
@jeffhays1968 3 ай бұрын
@@RanchFairy Actually using your TuffHead Sirius single bevel broadhead. Out of a crossbow.
@JohnLee-vj9lh
@JohnLee-vj9lh 3 ай бұрын
@@RanchFairyDon’t get me wrong , what do you mean by adult arrows and broadhead ?
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 3 ай бұрын
@@jeffhays1968 That will do it
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 3 ай бұрын
@@JohnLee-vj9lh I figured you had seen some of my content. My apologies An adult arrow is shooting bare shaft perfect, nock tuned, has FOC over 16% (preferred) and a one piece, machined broadhead. Single bevel hand sharpened and stropped
@garnetwaite1123
@garnetwaite1123 4 ай бұрын
I would like to offer a perspective on this topic of why I believe you can’t trade speed for mass and expect similar results. Firstly, I am pleased that this video refers to momentum and not KE. In my opinion, KE offers no real world application for arrow performance. KE is theoretical energy potential. When you’re referring to your arrow’s KE, you are simply writing a cheque that you cannot cash. Conversely, momentum refers to magnitude and direction, and this is where things get real on planet Earth. Now, I would suggest that it is the ratio of speed to mass that has critical implications to an arrow’s performance and say that speed is a negative factor on arrow performance after a certain point. Of course you need velocity in the equation, but I believe that once the practical velocity limits are exceeded, arrow performance suffers due to increased resistive forces of hide, muscle and most importantly, bone imparted on the arrow. I believe more attention needs to be given to the increased opposing force applied through increased speed and this is something a bow hunter’s may want to consider in their thought process when choosing an arrow. My thanks to Ranch Fairy for all his insights and to Dr. Ed Ashby for his invaluable research, helping us all be successful, ethical hunters!
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
@@garnetwaite1123 Thank you
@waynemorris1999
@waynemorris1999 4 ай бұрын
I wish I could shake your hand. Well said.
@franklinfx
@franklinfx 4 ай бұрын
Are we talking about whitetails or rinos? I've never had problems breaking through deer bones with just about anything from 400 to 650 gr at 140-240fps
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 2 ай бұрын
@@franklinfx and we aren’t surprised. Two things. 1. We are talking about the maximum potential lethality of an arrow system. Ed has identified 12 factors that create the highest potential lethality in all impact points. 2. Gotta be careful with the rhino comment. You’re dipping into a psychological trap of your own design. By saying rhino…..you are admitting there might be rhino arrows. Meaning, the rhino arrow is a rhino arrow. It will kill a deer. But you are saying also, that a deer arrow is not a rhino arrow. A .243 within 150 yards is an excellent deer rifle. However, your Cape buffalo hunt might go awry if you choose it for that purpose.
@davidfrette7721
@davidfrette7721 4 ай бұрын
Thanks for your work on this Troy. I am with a number of other guys and would like to know about bone breaching on whitetail deer. Can you talk with Ed about that? And give your thoughts. Thanks.
@MK9-VGI
@MK9-VGI 4 ай бұрын
It's as simple as this. What's harder to stop. Sports car going 150mph? Or 1.5 mile long train going 30mph. The faster the lighter object starts the faster the lighter object stops. I think to many people are waaaaaay overlooking the studies.
@Verticalbowoutdoors
@Verticalbowoutdoors 3 ай бұрын
Wow I just got dumber ready this comment
@KTMsoldier1988
@KTMsoldier1988 3 ай бұрын
Pretty sure if I got hit with either of those I'd be dead!
@JSJ-mn8wg
@JSJ-mn8wg 4 ай бұрын
Hey RF, the stuff you guys talk about makes a lot of sense to me and you guys answered a lot of questions I had regarding FOC and arrow weight, but there is one question that I think I already know the answer towards but might be interesting talking about and explaining to people. A lot of people describe High FOC arrows as "arrows that fall out of the sky", but I think based on the rocket man stuff there shouldn't be a drawback with higher FOC (considering the increase in flight stability). You think that these people are thinking about higher foc arrows as heavy arrows instead of seeing two arrows that are the same weight. Additional question is there ever a reason not to run high foc in hunting scenarios? Thanks in advance!
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
So my chippy RF side flares up here (not on you) but this is the last "great" argument.....trajectory curve. The "tests" I've seen, the "testers" don't adjust their sights for the trajectory curve of the heavier projectile. When you launch a 600 grain arrow with sights for a 420 grain arrow......yup. It's gonna look like it fell out of the sky. No one said they don't require different trajectory curves. I CAN EASILY set my sights for a 650 grain arrow and then shoot a 430 and watch it fly OVER the targets. Heck, I might just do that. "what a piece of garbage, those light arrows don't hit anything and fly 2 feet high, I wouldn't hunt with that!!!". In this day, with laser range finders and a lot of practice (any arrow platform), you get used to whatever trajectory curve you normally shoot on. Arrows just aren't that fast and require some level of "Kentucky windage" when you have yardage that's not exactly 20/30 etc. Thus, if the gaps are a little wider, you learn, your brain learns. The disconnect, at its core, is the difference between choosing a more lethal penetration system specific for hunting. Or an arrow "we think we are comfortable "Shooting" that will hit the target and then we hope it penetrates. You can shoot deer with ballistic tips. But man, just give the good old core lokt for consistency. If I were a 3-D guy. I'd have around a 500 grain 3-D arrow with very high FOC for stability. Then a 650 hunting arrow with all the factors. Tools for each job.
@JSJ-mn8wg
@JSJ-mn8wg 4 ай бұрын
The thing is most of the guys that shoot the arrows don't shoot that far to require a flatter shooting trajectory, its more a thing of comfort if I have to then I can, but lets be honest a little people still don't (talking about the White tail guys). Hell here in South Africa we hunt kudu with 550 grain 50 yards away. If you really want to tackle these trajectory curve guys, show them how much a light arrows move in the wind and just increase by 50 grain increment. Yeah you might get down there at far distances but doesn't help if your arrow moves two foot to the right.
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 3 ай бұрын
@@JSJ-mn8wg Or loses all its momentum. I have a whole long range playlist using a lab radar. The results were pretty amazing (done at 60 yards)
@jason_mc77
@jason_mc77 4 ай бұрын
I may be misremembering but I feel like there was discussion of "x" grain arrows were about 50% and "y" grain arrows were between 30-40%. The percentages of breaching heavy bone diminishing correlated to reducing arrow weight.
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
@@jason_mc77 at or above 650 100% Below 650 50% and it is diminishing returns as you go lower. Of note, because this could get crazy. There really is no reason to test say 550 then 500 then 450 for a percentage when we know 650 gives such high results And plus! There’s some foam fondling fellas and one GOD OF ARCHERY who can spend the time and money to find that out. Nahhh they won’t do it. They’ll just write papers and lie and never test. I don’t think you were gonna ask, but others might. So I’m not smoking ya out. Trying to manage others comments befor it gets out of hand
@nerveangel
@nerveangel 3 күн бұрын
Troy or Ed, I've been watching a lot of your videos here or on THP and definitely want to cross the 650 gr arrow threshold. My question is does it matter how high the stiffness the spine is past 250? Is there any disadvantage to shooting a 70 lbs. comp bow with a 200 spine? A 150 spine? I was thinking of just going whole hog with a 200.
@williamgaines9784
@williamgaines9784 4 ай бұрын
What I heard him say here was below 650 you may not breach bone, but above that weight it WILL breach them. Still not a bowhunter, but if Iwere, I want a 100% penetrator not a 50% or less chance.
@KTMsoldier1988
@KTMsoldier1988 3 ай бұрын
On what kind of bone and what animal?
@nathanmorkovsky2855
@nathanmorkovsky2855 4 ай бұрын
Enjoy the video info
@judefuselier
@judefuselier 4 ай бұрын
The graph really suggests that a min. 0.61 slug is what is necessary to be in the Plan B Zone, amongst other things.
@scottdebeaux78
@scottdebeaux78 4 ай бұрын
So what your saying is that if you follow the 12 factors you get the same results as ed. But if you choose only a couple of the factors you get a completely diffrent result!... seems like science to me
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
Correct. If you change any of the arrow specifications, you alter the outcome.
@johnnyandnik2204
@johnnyandnik2204 4 ай бұрын
this great info...but most of it seams to be for compound hunters...i have a longbow that i can only shoot 52# out of...and have shot a 615 gr arrow...and that slows dowm the arrow ALOT...i would love to shot 650gr arrows BUT i dont think it would work with this combintion that i have...OR WOULD IT? THANKS for the hard work and help on the videos fairy...
@austinrich3902
@austinrich3902 4 ай бұрын
Wondering the same thing… shooting a long bow as well at #47 and shooting a 605-608gr set up with a sharp 3:1 point and 26%FOC
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
@@johnnyandnik2204 Ashby reports were mostly with trad bows Ashby Bowhunting website Ashby reports
@johnnyandnik2204
@johnnyandnik2204 4 ай бұрын
@@RanchFairy thanks for the help troy...i am very interested in trying some of this...and plan on doing alot of reading...BUT most of MR.ashby work was done.. i think with a 90# longbow and i only shot 50# pound range...SO this is some thing i cant wrap my head around...just my issue NOT yours...lol..thanks for the hard work you guys do...john
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
@@johnnyandnik2204 Well you’re 100% wrong about the heavy test bows only (but the message boards are sure lively and have given you your belief!). Please do read the study!! Don’t listen to me! He went all the way down to a 40# target bow. And in between. Which means the data base is NOT a one bow test. Unfortunately You want to see the bias you see in the “modern” testing world and poke holes. Good luck! He’s a bit smarter and quite frankly curious about things. Like me. I have a whole playlist shooting a 40#\ 26” draw compound with arrows 700+ grains just to see what happens? The pigs hated it! Enjoy the reading. It’s quite comprehensive.
@ZJ_Rubicon
@ZJ_Rubicon 4 ай бұрын
Good afternoon Troy, I am a whitetail hunter in PA and I have another question about what is considered heavy bone by the study. Since the study was done in Africa and from what I have picked up over the years of watching this channel the animals were much larger than a whitetail. I know that he has talked a lot about the Asiatic Buffalo when talking about the study and they are built more like a cow (bovine) than a deer. And cow bones are at least 3x bigger than a deer. So does the study differentiate what animal needs the 650 for heavy bone? Is 650 for the large animals but say on something whitetail size 600 would be equivalent? For reference I was shooting easy button Apollos at 30 7/8 with the RF single bevel @70#. This year I switched to easy button Gemini with he same head. This took me from 675 grain down to 620 grain. And I ended up buying these a couple weeks before you put this video out. I was incredibly confident last year with the Apollos and I am now second guessing my choice to go with a lighter GPI shaft to up my FOC and get a little flatter trajectory. Do you think that the 620 grain 20% FOC arrow is still a good arrow for whitetails? And thank you for putting this info out there. I have been slowly stepping up my game for about 4 years since I started to watch you.
@lawrencefranck9417
@lawrencefranck9417 4 ай бұрын
You will be fine.
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
(COPIED FROM MY REPLY TO ANOTHER COMMENT ON THIS VIDEO) The database has approximately 5,000 test shot records (not including 'focal study' shots looking at a specific arrow/broadhead feature), which comprise shots on animals from Impala, whitetail, and pig size up to Cape and Asian buffalo. There is also a database of actual bow kills on similar-sized animals, which now approaches 700 shot records. We use the 'actual kills' database as a cross-reference to be sure that the testing outcomes accurately reflect the outcomes of actual hunting shots. We also have reports of hunting results sent in by multiple individuals, which number into the thousands. Antidotal information from other hunters is scoured for any useful trends that have been reported (such as the interesting fact that hunters shooting compound bows with draw weight of 70# and below report a significantly higher number of complete passthrough shots on Cape and Asian buffalo than do hunters shooting compound bows of higher draw weight). As should be evident, there are many types of 'heavy bone' hits for which we have very detailed information. My original Study database tracked 118 data points on every shot, and the new testing database (2021 and forward) tracks 250 data points per shot. The databases are searchable, so we can compare the heavy bone penetration rate on impala and whitetail-sized animals to the heavy-bone penetration rate on buffalo rib shots, which are equal when the shot angle and bone impact angle are the same.
@andrewchandler9197
@andrewchandler9197 4 ай бұрын
On White tailed deer my personal experience, (I shoot 622gr) I don't have any issues even on "heavy bone" I may not get pass throughs 100% in that situation but I definitely reach vitals.
@ZJ_Rubicon
@ZJ_Rubicon 4 ай бұрын
@@andrewchandler9197 thank you for your input!
@zhickman338
@zhickman338 4 ай бұрын
Worrying about this is absolutely ridiculous, that would do just fine on a giraffe.
@stephenballard3759
@stephenballard3759 4 ай бұрын
If you do a video about stupid comments, please discuss all the people who think physics doesnt apply if you go fast enough. There is this strange idea that nothing. Ed Ashby studied applies to them because all of his arrowss were going less than 240 fps.
@ThirdLawPair
@ThirdLawPair 4 ай бұрын
I could do a video on people who think that math doesn't apply if there's any variance in the numbers.
@Bobsbowshop
@Bobsbowshop 4 ай бұрын
If Ed was shooting traditional equipment, I’m not sure of his draw length, but with state of the art materials in limbs, etc., my best velocity out of any my bows is maxed out about 165fps with a 654grain arrow at 27” draw. So I would think he is far away from 240fps.
@stephenballard3759
@stephenballard3759 4 ай бұрын
@@Bobsbowshop It doesn't matter.
@stephenballard3759
@stephenballard3759 4 ай бұрын
@@Bobsbowshop It doesn't matter for one thing, and for another,, Ed shot a compound sometimes. Some people conveniently leave that out. True, it was a late eighty's compound.
@stephenballard3759
@stephenballard3759 4 ай бұрын
@@Bobsbowshop A lot of well made recurve bows are capable of one hundred and ninety, pretty easily, at ten grains per pound.
@jmc041071
@jmc041071 3 ай бұрын
So how do you figure the mechanical advantage of a broadhead?
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 3 ай бұрын
@@jmc041071 look in Ashby reports or on a mechanical engineering site
@jmc041071
@jmc041071 3 ай бұрын
@@RanchFairy found it, thank you. I watched your Playlist on ordering and arrow tuning. Will watch them several times, but I have a question on the inserts. You mention changing their size. How will I know how much to take off and what size I need? Do you have a video that I can watch on how and what to do to the inserts?
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 3 ай бұрын
@@jmc041071 so usually, we run a 100 grain half jacket insert. Then multiple field points to test. For example 125 / 150 /200 grain. Those particular weights allow you to buy multiple Broadhead platforms that are excellent like Magnus or the RF 200 if that flies. IF YOU want to shoot one particular Broadhead mass, say 150. Then you'd still use the 100 insert, multiple field points. find out what flies best. let's say that's a 200 grain point. (I'd not lock up the Broadhead weight and shoot a 200 Broadhead as noted) BUT, in this case. You'd need a 150 insert, 150 point / Broadhead. 100 insert in test arrows, 200 point flew best = 300 grains.
@jmc041071
@jmc041071 3 ай бұрын
@@RanchFairy Thank you. I'm going to email you so I'll have an easy way to go back over your info instead of going back through comments.
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 3 ай бұрын
@@jmc041071 Troy@ranchfairy.com Anyone else - feel free to do the same
@jacoblandreneau5068
@jacoblandreneau5068 4 ай бұрын
Ok I want to shoot a 650+ grain arrow but what happens if when I get the test kit & the best shooting setup is 600 grains? Which do I go with?
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
The ability of the arrow to breach a heavy bone is only important when things go wrong, and your arrow encounters a heavy bone. Perfect arrow flight is a MUST-HAVE feature ON EVERY SHOT.
@paulwestlund9705
@paulwestlund9705 4 ай бұрын
Is bone breaking amount the same for Whitetail compared to Buffalo?
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
Please see my pinned comment at the top of the comments on the previous video, "How much does FOC Really Matter?" The last sentence in the third paragraph answers your question.
@Practice2Perfection
@Practice2Perfection 4 ай бұрын
An honest question: Does increse in speed factor positively in the equation ?, Dr. Ashbys testing was performed with lower speed bows. What im trying to figure out is if a 550gn arrow fliying at 288fps would have the same, better or worst potential at breaching heavy bone than a 650gn arrow fliying at 200fps, everything else all being equal, perfect flight, mechanical advantage broadhead and everything. I am just really curious to find out if high speed with a middle of the road arrow weight can compensate for the missing weight. I would really appreciate any insight. Thank you.
@cameroncarruthers4217
@cameroncarruthers4217 4 ай бұрын
According to more recent studies using modern compounds, no. Momentum isn't the factor According to that data. The mass is the factor. He addresses it in the video linked in the description
@jasonbaker-du3de
@jasonbaker-du3de 4 ай бұрын
Think of a Prius hitting a wall at 60mph and a dump truck hitting a wall at 50mph. The truck is going to do much more damage even though it’s going slower.
@Practice2Perfection
@Practice2Perfection 4 ай бұрын
@jasonbaker-du3de I agree, but I'm not comparing a Prius and a truck. It's more like a Tacoma and a Ford F350. And the speed difference is much bigger than 10mph. I'm trying to figure out if a large increase in speed can overcome the disadvantages of about 100gn or so. I'm currently shooting a 550gn set up, 24%FOC. Single bevel, perfect arrow flight, going at 288fps. Out of a Core SR in performance mode. I can't imagine speed has no effect at all in the equation. Maybe not enough to compensate for the missing arrow mass, but maybe so. That's what I'm trying to figure out.
@whitetailhunter7202
@whitetailhunter7202 4 ай бұрын
​@@Practice2Perfection Ed talked about it in the previous video. Increasing speed increases resistance, I believe he said, X4!!! So no added Speed DOESN'T make up for it.
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
In the newer testing (2001 to date), all with modern, high-performance compound bows, the outcomes have shown no movement of the 650-grain Heavy Bone Threshold. How is that possible? This is because not all momentum 'amounts' carry the same degree of importance to the arrow's ability to penetrate the bone. Momentum is mass x velocity. As an arrow 'flies' through a dense medium, such as tissues, it sheds its velocity rapidly while its mass remains constant. Because of this, the amount of the arrow's momentum derived from arrow mass is more important than the amount of its momentum derived from velocity. Thus, the arrow's Moment of Impulse is longer; it 'pushes' on the bone longer, permitting its momentum to overcome bone movement (due to bone attachments) and bone flexion. An arrow must overcome these factors (bone movement and bone flexion) before it begins to penetrate the bone. The energy absorbed by bone movement and flexion severely degrades the arrow's velocity but does not affect its mass. The contribution of arrow mass to the arrow's momentum is not affected by bone movement or bone flex.
@285JSB
@285JSB 4 ай бұрын
All these people on here complaining that you can shoot a lighter arrow and still break bones are just too lazy and cheap to put the work into adult arrows. There are plenty of ways to kill an animal with an arrow. Ashby is simply outlining the most reliable.
@d500mag2
@d500mag2 4 ай бұрын
most of the bones they are talking about breaking are ribs
@judefuselier
@judefuselier 4 ай бұрын
Yeah discussing momentum would help a lot. Additionally, evaluate the general shear capacity of bone based on a unit thickness. Sorry, nerding out over coffee.
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
@@judefuselier You have no idea how much work that takes - the industry has the money They won’t go find out. The biggest challenge? Every bone as the arrow flies through is a different density. It likely varies animal to animal of the same species due to size. It varies widely on the absolutely finite and tiny impact point of each hit. This is why Ed put 5,000 shots into the database. You can start to see significant trends
@A_Schmidt3
@A_Schmidt3 4 ай бұрын
Is this 650 number going to change with higher poundage bows? I think I missed what the control set up was, but I would assume a 70lb bow vs a 80lb bow will require different weight arrows to break bone.
@justinsalzl1517
@justinsalzl1517 4 ай бұрын
Check out the study. You may be surprised by the results. And I believe your question will be answered.
@georgewashington1621
@georgewashington1621 4 ай бұрын
I made a bunch of 750 grain arrows but they only manage 144fps out of my 50lbs recurve. If i go below 600 grains i get 180+ fps. Which one is better - 144fps with a proper heavy arrow or 180fps with a 500 something arrow? For hunting average to above average sized hogs.
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 3 ай бұрын
The heavier arrow will ensure adequate penetration when things go wrong. The animal gets a vote on shot placement, and excrement happens!
@reidzr2s10
@reidzr2s10 4 ай бұрын
You can preach the truth/facts till the cows come home. What you got to understand is that there are people who pay TOP DOLLAR for their bows, arrows & broad heads just so they shoot over 300 FPS and be able to brag about how fast their setup is. Then Troy comes along and introduces everyone to Dr Ed Ashby’s studies, more or less telling everyone speed is not what kills. Now these same people have had their egos knocked down a notch or two and they realize bragging about how fast their bow is has become irrelevant. Not completely irrelevant but speed is not the main factor. There I said it !!!
@georgewashington1621
@georgewashington1621 4 ай бұрын
I dont get why people who care about speed dont just go to crossbows or compressed air arrow guns etc. I mean if you dont care about anything but speed, why even bother with bows to begin with?
@waynemorris1999
@waynemorris1999 4 ай бұрын
I agree, ego is the main problem. The second problem is money. They built a career and reputation on speed which equates to sponsors. Anything that challenges that cuts into their bottom line.
@codycreager4428
@codycreager4428 4 ай бұрын
How maybe bull elk and pronghorns have you killed so far this season with your stupid slow large margin of error arrows?
@codycreager4428
@codycreager4428 4 ай бұрын
​@@georgewashington1621because an elk duckinh a stupid slow arrow is the difference between a clean kill and a wounded animal. Pretty simple. But what do I know I don't kill big elk and mule deer year after year with only 418 grains
@waynemorris1999
@waynemorris1999 4 ай бұрын
@@codycreager4428 I’m humbled by your greatness. I hope everything continues to work perfectly for you, you absolute legend. And I know that if you ever wound an animal, which obviously could never happen to a Greek god such as yourself, you find it in yourself to blame someone or something else. I have seen the error of my ways and cannot believe how lucky I am to have killed elk with a 650 grain arrow. Come to think of it, I probably didn’t. The elk probably died laughing at my pathetic attempt. To atone for my sins, I will get a 418 grain lighting bolt form god and travel the world smiting every creature before me. But can a mere mortal truly wield such power?
@Willowbrook_homestead
@Willowbrook_homestead 4 ай бұрын
what is the minimum momentum needed to break bone? at 650gr how fast does it need to be going? or what KE does it need to be carrying? a 15lb kids bow wont do it. But a 70lb one will. at what point can you increase poundage and speed to "make up for" a lighter arrow? and at what ratio? (im familiar with speed degradation and why mass stays as a control) for example. would 150lb bow shooting 500fps brake bone at 100% with a 450gr arrow? i just a want to know the numbers. PS. im shooting a 550 gr arrow with a single bevel. I'm just a nerd like the rest of you haha.
@zhickman338
@zhickman338 4 ай бұрын
Watch the video, then comment.
@Willowbrook_homestead
@Willowbrook_homestead 4 ай бұрын
@zhickman338 I did... lol. Can you tell me where he answers my question?
@zhickman338
@zhickman338 4 ай бұрын
@@Willowbrook_homestead I’m not going to give you a time stamp but he said speed made no difference. Not only in this recording, but in hundreds of others.
@Willowbrook_homestead
@Willowbrook_homestead 4 ай бұрын
@zhickman338 Yes, I know he said that, but it does... 650 isn't a magic laser beam. If it's going 12fps, it won't do jack squat, and if I piece of straw gets wrapped up in a hurricane, that speed can put bit through a telephone pole... so yes, IT DOES make a difference. My question is, about energy. at what point can speed or pound age offset a lighter arrow? Idk how familiar you are with the equations for momentum. But both mass and velocity are part of the equation. So if you lower or increase velocity, it obviously makes a difference... I'm asking for the math
@zhickman338
@zhickman338 4 ай бұрын
@@Willowbrook_homestead What do you think you’re going to get? He’s been giving the same answer for at least a decade now.
@robshipley7543
@robshipley7543 4 ай бұрын
What kind of poundage you putting behind these heavy arrows my arrows are 620 and I shoot 50 lbs
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 3 ай бұрын
The bows used in the study's testing ranged from a 40# recurve to 200# crossbows.
@austink2084
@austink2084 4 ай бұрын
Was Ed shooting a compound?
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
Both compounds and traditional bows... plus crossbows.
@MichaelLakota-vc4tk
@MichaelLakota-vc4tk 4 ай бұрын
Hey Troy. What you really need to do or should I say emphasize is basically how much fps is required to. Let me restart,considering perfect arrow flight. 3-1 broadhead 650gr. What is the minimum speed (fps) with that perfect arrow and broad head set up. ? By the way I will never hunt with anyone shooting A mechanical BH out of a vertical bow. The momentum is just not there for the average person 🤷🏼‍♂️
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
The lowest velocity I tested the 650-grain, penetration maximized arrow's heavy bone breaching ability at was 125 fps from a 40#@27" Bear Formula Silver target recurve bow. The breaching rate was still at 100%.
@MichaelLakota-vc4tk
@MichaelLakota-vc4tk 4 ай бұрын
@@OldDerelict that is incredible! Thank you 👍🏻👍🏻🇺🇸
@slayer92100
@slayer92100 2 ай бұрын
Maybe there has been a test done on this but at any point does speed trump weight. Im preparing to get roasted lol. I shoot a 300 spine 350grain victory rip xv 29" @70lb @318fps with an ozzcut elite 3 blade that i sharpen. I only deer hunt and have killed 30 something deer using similar setups. Recently i shot a slick head through the femur at 32 yards and sheared it into and exited out the armpit and 6 inches into the dirt. Just wondering if speed, (at some point), trumps weight. While using a quality fixed blade with a reasonable cut diameter
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 2 ай бұрын
@@slayer92100 great question. So the fair answer is. We don’t know. At this day in time…Dr Ashby’s study is ongoing. So the best data set (5,000 shots 118 data points plus testing in 21,22,23 with an 80# compound) The higher mass and long 3:1 Broadhead is the best OVERALL performer. Do other arrows “work”. Yes they do. As you noted. No one says they don’t. One thing to be clear on. This isn’t a “mass” only discussion. Dr Ed has 12 factors identified at this time that create the highest performance arrow system. 650 grains is the 12th factor. It moves. If you hit heavy bone, it jumps to number 3. If you don’t it stays at 12. See the Ashby foundation website and look at the reports and 12 factors. BTW - this is the first question I asked Ed when I met him. I said “Is there a speed based heavy bone threshold?’ His answer I have stolen for times when we are speculating. Ed said ‘I don’t know, gotta test it!” Fair answer!
@slayer92100
@slayer92100 2 ай бұрын
@@RanchFairy interesting, thanks for the reply
@angryheathen3463
@angryheathen3463 4 ай бұрын
You got me shooting adult arrows, but I am still at around 590. How do you determine an arrows mechanical value?
@ethan....
@ethan.... 3 ай бұрын
Just go buy a grizzly 2 blade single bevel broadhead and you'll be there.
@angryheathen3463
@angryheathen3463 3 ай бұрын
@@ethan.... I kind of like Iron wills, I will check those out though
@welderoo
@welderoo 4 ай бұрын
Ok 650 grains for momentum but was he shooting compound or recurve? If shooting a faster bow the extra velocity would up the momentum bringing the number weight down. Maybe an equation showing what the momentum of his setup and can play with the numbers abit to come up with same answer. Mass times velocity equals momentum. So if we know the momentum needed the rest is adjustable?
@highcountryadventures9606
@highcountryadventures9606 4 ай бұрын
Ed said in this interview that momentum was not an adequate number to equate to penetration on game. He spoke about how resistance to impact increases as the arrow speed increases. So a faster arrow will meet more resistance going through flesh than a slower arrow. Best way to describe it is stepping into a bathtub vs jumping off a high dive. You'll meet a lot more resistance jumping off the high dive because your speed on impact increased. It's pretty interesting really. I wish there was a numerical value to give to arrows to accurately predict penetration potential, but so far there's nothing.
@hawknives
@hawknives 4 ай бұрын
The animals get a Vote! If yer luck is anything like like mine, there's a 50% chance somethings gonna go wrong. Lol! Christ bless You, Christ Bless The Hunt!
@jacobwilliams5271
@jacobwilliams5271 4 ай бұрын
So what about a 35lb recurve bow shooting a 660 grain arrow?
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
Most applicable to your question, and of which I have personal knowledge, is a young teenager shooting a 27# longbow (at his draw length, but I no longer remember his exact draw length; however, I do remember I was shorter than my 27" draw length) and a 720-grain arrow with a 3:1 ratio broadhead (the original Elburg Grizzly). His shot, on a 260# cross-boar, gave an exit wound, with several inches of off-side arrow protrusion, but was not a complete passthrough shot.
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
@@jacobwilliams5271 Straight from Dr Ed!
@bensmith2665
@bensmith2665 4 ай бұрын
So even if I switch everything and say ok I need 650 to break heavy bone and I hunt whitetails with solid 3 blade TOTA broadheads I might as well go home because the 3 blade doesn't have a mechanical advantage? I have seen many 3 blade broadheads go through scapula (not necessarily heavy bone) and it works like a maul the shape alone almost forces bone apart
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
Data for all shots, all arrows having fixed blades, show that 3-blade broadheads have the lowest rate of heavy bone penetration, well below that for all shots having 4-blade broadheads. For "all soft tissues" hits, the 3-blade broadheads outperform the 4-blade broadheads. However, it is essential to remember that using arrow mass above the Heavy Bone Threshold will still increase the PROBABILITY that your three-blade broadhead will penetrate a heavy bone, should it encounter one. Reaching a 100% heavy bone breaching rate REQUIRES using a fully penetration-maximized arrow.
@bensmith2665
@bensmith2665 4 ай бұрын
@@OldDerelict thank you for explaining that. Makes a lot of sense
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
@@bensmith2665 You are most welcome, Sir.
@zhickman338
@zhickman338 3 ай бұрын
@@bensmith2665 that’s why this system is such a hard sell. Your basically stuck with Grizzly Stick, or Tuffhead🤷‍♂️
@jacobcutter8962
@jacobcutter8962 4 ай бұрын
I think he said the broadhead has to have a 2:1 mechanical advantage. Does the Ranch Fairy broadhead have that? I’m not trying to be cheeky by asking, I’m just wondering.
@N8Stein
@N8Stein 4 ай бұрын
3:1 is ideal and I think the RFs 3 blade does at least. His single bevel has 2:1 I think. Not sure. Didn't do research just responded lol
@justinsalzl1517
@justinsalzl1517 4 ай бұрын
I don’t think it’s quite 2:1. But somewhat close. I actually shoot the gen 1 evos, and the old 265gr meatheads - which is a true 3:1. Those things are incredible. I think I could split wood with them.
@jacobcutter8962
@jacobcutter8962 4 ай бұрын
OK. Thanks for replying. I guess then what would make a broadhead have that 2:1 advantage?
@scottfrederick8299
@scottfrederick8299 4 ай бұрын
​@@jacobcutter8962 3" long by 1" wide = 3/1 ratio.
@N8Stein
@N8Stein 4 ай бұрын
@@justinsalzl1517 that sounds incredible. I've left the heavy world but I'm shooting 31" 70# modern compound so I can get away with a 480grain arrow with about any fixed head
@robertsophiea05
@robertsophiea05 4 ай бұрын
The heavy arrow argument sounds like this. Person 1: We all agree the most important aspect of a tether is that it not breaks. Therefore, we should all use anchor chains as a tether. Person 2 But I can use ropes that are very strong and weigh less and don’t make as much noise. Person 1 ropes aren’t as strong as chains. Dr. Ashby who seems very cool is talking about testing He did with a traditional bow on African game. The rest of us are using 80 pound compounds with 400 grain arrows at 320 ft./s against white tail deer. The arrows zip right through. In real life, my 400 grain arrows zip right through I see it with my own eyes.
@davehalm7362
@davehalm7362 4 ай бұрын
Until you don't hit where you're aiming Mr.Robinhood🙄 It's all about when shit goes south!!
@robertsophiea05
@robertsophiea05 4 ай бұрын
@@davehalm7362 I hear all about these really strong bones on Whitetail deer that can stop my arrow, but I have never found one. I have missed low. I have hit high. I have hit back. I have hit forward. I have taken frontal shots. I never had a problem with penetration. I could be wrong. I have been wrong before. My experience leads me to believe if you released 100 equal hunters with light arrows and mechanical heads on equal ground with 100 hunters with heavy arrows and small fixed heads the 100 hunters with lightweight arrows would bring home more deer meat than the 100 hunters with heavy arrows. Edit: I have been stopped on the off side shoulder, but those deer die right away.
@michaelcollins432
@michaelcollins432 4 ай бұрын
@@davehalm7362some people will never get it
@ChristopherA-p3c
@ChristopherA-p3c 3 ай бұрын
60 feet/300fps = .2 seconds (fast bow) 60 feet/1,125fps = .05 seconds (time for sound to reach the deer at 20 yards) Deer’s reaction time on average time = .1 seconds The time to beat sound at 20 yards is .15 seconds, which would require a bow to shoot 400 fps. So, you can’t beat a deer’s reaction time with a compound bow at more than approximately 15 yards at 300 fps (45/300)=.15 seconds. Drops to 13 yards at 250 fps. You need to limit the delta between the arrow’s travel time vs the speed of sound. Deer can drop about 1 inch for every 1/100th of a second. So, at 20 yards a deer’s maximum approximate drop or spin potential with a 300fps arrow is effectively 5 inches (.2-.15=.05 seconds). Same 20 yard shot at 250fps results in drop or spin potential of 9 inches (.24-15=.09 seconds). When you see a deer not react to the arrow at less than 13-15 yards, it’s not that they didn’t hear the shot, it’s just algebra. You beat the deer’s reaction time, is not that they didn’t hear the bow because you are shooting a heavy arrow and reduced the decibels by a point or two. These numbers only get worse at farther distances. I personally am not willing to give up 4 inches of additional potential movement on a 20 yard shot for the sake of kinetic energy far exceeding what is required to kill a whitetail. Shot placement is the number one factor in ethical kills.
@jordanpoor8006
@jordanpoor8006 2 ай бұрын
I listened to this podcast the other day with a deer biologist that said some of these jumping the string situations is the deer actually seeing the arrow coming and not so much the noise
@timothyconrad4104
@timothyconrad4104 4 ай бұрын
Wouldn’t the bone breaching threshold change according to the density of the bone you’re penetrating? Would the same 650 work on an elephant or would the arrow mass have to increase?
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
There's no such thing as overkill with an arrow. Yes, a 650-grain penetration-maximized arrow can breach the 1-inch-plus thick ribs of an elephant. However, the arrow's momentum is pretty degraded post-breaching, and post-breaching penetration will be limited, with a one-lung hit being the likely outcome. The arrow needs more mass to ensure deep and/or transthoracic arrow penetration on the pachyderms. A penetration-maximized arrow requires an arrow mass of 1100 to 1300 grains for reliable post-breaching arrow penetration on pachyderms.
@timothyconrad4104
@timothyconrad4104 4 ай бұрын
@@OldDerelict thanks for the reply. My next would be, is 650 overkill for whitetails? This is my primary game animal I hunt. My mind is thinking somewhere about 500 grains would be sufficient enough for that. Am I correct?
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
@@timothyconrad4104 A well-designed 500-grain arrow will work fine on whitetails... as long as things go right. However, the animal gets a vote. Living targets can move at any time. Donald Trump moved, and thankfully, a bullet traveling ten times faster than a very fast arrow didn't hit where intended. Should your arrow encounter one of the heavy bones in a whitetail, it's best to have a penetration-maximized arrow weighing at least 650 grains.
@joevandivner9704
@joevandivner9704 4 ай бұрын
Thanks Troy. Now when the THP guys started working with u I remember that you was saying it was a big deal to get around 550. I apologize if that’s not exactly correct. But even tho that is below the 650 you guys had a lot of great results with that so would you still recommend starting out at around that 550 arrow weight?
@sheyanderson4371
@sheyanderson4371 4 ай бұрын
Trajectory. "You should always use the heaviest arrow possible that has a trajectory that you still find acceptable." For many hunters, trajectory will trump the need to meet the bone breaking threshold.
@joevandivner9704
@joevandivner9704 4 ай бұрын
Yes but u still have to have the weight to get the momentum. I say that because there are people out here preaching running a 400 grain arrow for Elk and to me I think that is insane. I mainly shoot whitetail and I wouldn’t use a 400 grain arrow for deer lol
@sheyanderson4371
@sheyanderson4371 4 ай бұрын
​@@joevandivner9704 I understand, I was simply just answering your question of why he would still recommend less than the 650g threshold. He is taking in account trajectory preference. Everyone has preferences that are made and change with experience. Shoot what works, until it doesn't, then adjust. You can have success with a plethora of setup types, but there are just too many factors in hunting for there ever to be a one (or even few) sizes fits all approach.
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 3 ай бұрын
@@sheyanderson4371 And hunting skills trump arrow trajectory. Today, too much emphasis is placed on arrow velocity and long-range trajectory, and far too little is placed on the development of hunting skills.
@sheyanderson4371
@sheyanderson4371 3 ай бұрын
​@@OldDerelict Apples and oranges, but both are important in order to fill the basket. A lack of knowledge in your equipment and what it is capable of can hinder chances of success in even the best planned and executed hunts. As goes for the inverse.
@In-The-Wild-Outdoors
@In-The-Wild-Outdoors 3 ай бұрын
While I agree with Dr. Ed and RF on what a 650gr arrow can accomplish .... we have to maintain perspective. An arrow weighing 650gr may be required if its traveling at 200fps. Such an arrow would have 57.75lbs of KE. An arrow weighing 400gr going 280fps would have 69.65lbs of KE. The ratio of velocity to mass is greater in that example, therefore more kinetic energy exists. I understand that the heavier arrow will shed velocity at a slower rate than the lighter arrow. BUT velocity IS part of the equation for figuring out energy. Momentum is equal to Mass multiplied by Velocity. There is a point of diminishing returns. We should not blindly accept that 650gr is the "gold standard" for an arrows weight. You have to determine what your energy will be on target, and referencing the formula for momentum, you will have to utilize velocity to do so- you cannot calculate momentum without velocity. In the example I provided, the weight to velocity is a factor of 0.307 for the 650gr arrow traveling at 200fps. The arrow weighing 400gr and traveling at 280fps has a weight to velocity factor of 0.700. If the weight to velocity factors were the same, the heavier arrow would have more energy. There are so many of you who believe velocity doesn't matter, but it 100% does matter- it is one of two factors in calculating momentum. Weight is only good if you can move it at an adequate velocity. Velocity is only good if there's enough mass behind to make it accomplish the task at hand. No one thing is more important than the other.
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 3 ай бұрын
Velocity is indeed a crucial factor in our analysis. While a bullet, despite its lower mass, can break a heavy bone due to its significantly higher velocity, our data on the velocities achievable with modern bows has not yet shown a 100% success rate in breaching heavy bone with any arrow having a mass of less than 650 grains. If you have any statistically significant hard data that contradicts this, we urge you to share it, as your contributions are vital to our understanding. With arrows from modern compound bows, we are dealing with approximately 30% LESS energy than a .22 Long Rifle cartridge. The amount of that low arrow force derived from the arrow's velocity is rapidly degraded during penetration, and the higher its velocity, the greater the tissue's resistance. As velocity increases, the tissue resistance increases exponentially. Because of an arrow's low velocity (relative to bullets) and low force (relative to bullets), the ability of an arrow to penetrate tissues is far more mass-dependent than bullets. Regardless of velocity, the contribution of an object (that remains structurally intact) makes to the total momentum remain constant throughout penetration. To date, and within the range of arrow velocities attainable with modern compound bows, our testing has been unable to document any reduction in the arrow weight (of a penetration-maximized arrow) required to breach heavy bone with 100% frequency.
@In-The-Wild-Outdoors
@In-The-Wild-Outdoors 3 ай бұрын
@@OldDerelict thank you for your thoughtful reply. At the moment, I do not have hard data to provide- only anecdotal, as I am not a researcher on this matter to the degree that you and others are. What I’m trying to point out is that there is a desired ratio of velocity and mass. I don’t know what that ratio is yet- perhaps you have the resources and ability to test that? I do not. I think that discovering an ideal ratio would once and for all settle the mass vs. velocity debate. They’re both important, and capability would be maximized if we could determine that. In aviation, we refer to it as “power-to-weight-ratio”. How much power does it take a helicopter to lift a particular payload off the deck. Maybe we can determine a velocity-to-mass ratio.
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 3 ай бұрын
@@In-The-Wild-Outdoors Are you looking for a power-to-weight ratio for a specific arrow? Without a standardized arrow, the power required will differ for each arrow setup, as the work the arrow can accomplish with the available force will differ as the task the arrow is required to do changes (such as how the available force is distributed during penetration, for example, the force required to deploy the blades of a mechanical broadhead or the higher resistance to penetration of a multi-blade broadhead, etcetera). That is why we adopted a standard arrow setup, one meeting the criteria of a penetration-maximized arrow, for all Heavy Bone Threshold testing.
@lawsonhuntsSWVA
@lawsonhuntsSWVA 4 ай бұрын
Wait a minute, I can't jump to unreasonable conclusions that aren't remotely related to the topic 🤔...I only shoot between ribs on perfectly broadside shots and the animal never moves duh😂
@ThirdLawPair
@ThirdLawPair 4 ай бұрын
For those who preach the value of testing, it would make sense to use real world video evidence of deer moving to directly measure their maximum acceleration rather than just dismissing deer movement as an unknowable mystery.
@lawsonhuntsSWVA
@lawsonhuntsSWVA 4 ай бұрын
@ThirdLawPair there are thousands and thousands of examples of animals moving. And it is impossible to prediction how they will move...exactly why your arrow should be able to function as intended on impact.
@rohlfing63
@rohlfing63 4 ай бұрын
​@@ThirdLawPairif the movement was consistent, I'd agree with you.
@ThirdLawPair
@ThirdLawPair 4 ай бұрын
@@rohlfing63 That's why you measure the maximum acceleration.
@ThirdLawPair
@ThirdLawPair 4 ай бұрын
@@lawsonhuntsSWVA That's the difference between accuracy and precision. You know the difference, right?
@ThirdLawPair
@ThirdLawPair 4 ай бұрын
Specifically what bone was it that these tests were done on?
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
@@ThirdLawPair I’ll ask Ed to respond
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
The database has approximately 5,000 test shot records (not including 'focal study' shots looking at a specific arrow/broadhead feature), which comprise shots on animals from Impala, whitetail, and pig size up to Cape and Asian buffalo. There is also a database of actual bow kills on similar-sized animals, which now approaches 700 shot records. We use the 'actual kills' database as a cross-reference to be sure that the testing outcomes accurately reflect the outcomes of actual hunting shots. We also have reports of hunting results sent in by multiple individuals, which number into the thousands. Antidotal information from other hunters is scoured for any useful trends that have been reported (such as the interesting fact that hunters shooting compound bows with draw weight of 70# and below report a significantly higher number of complete passthrough shots on Cape and Asian buffalo than do hunters shooting compound bows of higher draw weight). As should be evident, there are many types of 'heavy bone' hits for which we have very detailed information. My original Study database tracked 118 data points on every shot, and the new testing database (2021 and forward) tracks 250 data points per shot. The databases are searchable, so we can compare the heavy bone penetration rate on impala and whitetail-sized animals to the heavy-bone penetration rate on buffalo rib shots, which are equal when the shot angle and bone impact angle are the same.
@ThirdLawPair
@ThirdLawPair 4 ай бұрын
​@@OldDerelictthat makes sense. What type of regressions did you use?
@ThirdLawPair
@ThirdLawPair 4 ай бұрын
​@@RanchFairyside note, can you please explain to your audience the difference between accuracy and precision so I don't have to gouge my eyes out.
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
@@ThirdLawPair What is your definition? I’d explain the difference between accuracy and reality. You can put an arrow accurately on a critter. But it may move. Or you might just not notice it took one last step toward you or away from you at the last minute and the intended POI which you did not miss Just changed by 3/5”
@bjcoveney5306
@bjcoveney5306 4 ай бұрын
Good things happen above 550 Tell them Troy…
@CryptoHuntinDad
@CryptoHuntinDad 4 ай бұрын
I wish he would do it on whitetail bone,maybe 550 might work for smaller bones
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 4 ай бұрын
Please read my pinned comment at the top for more detail on the types of animals. Of note. A white tail shoulder blade in the thickest part (thus the Hardest to penetrate) is as thick or thicker than Cape buffalo ribs. That ridge stops a lot of arrows every year. A white tail humerus (certainly the pelvis should things REALLY go wrong) is harder due to diameter and quite frankly they are round making them tough to penetrate, arrows tend to redirect. The elbow "knuckle" is quite solid too.
@ChristopherGreen-q5t
@ChristopherGreen-q5t 4 ай бұрын
Yall better get more truck stickers and a flat bill ball cap before I pay any attention to y’all.
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 3 ай бұрын
@@ChristopherGreen-q5t tattoos!!!!
@ikerapt6702
@ikerapt6702 4 ай бұрын
for those not hunting in Africa, you can kill tons of whitetail deer with 400 grain arrows. if you can get over 270 fps, you're golden. DONT go below like 370 grains thats when you start seeing penetration problems on deer. myself, family, and friends over the past 30 years have killed hundreds of deer using these methods. Hardly ever a penetration issue. excuse my punctuation 😊
@waynemorris1999
@waynemorris1999 4 ай бұрын
Can you publish your testing methodology, arrow and bow info, which broadhead you used, % of pass through, recovered vs lost animals, bones breached vs not, average travel of animal after being shot? Just your basic imperial data. Compared to what Ashby has produced, your statement is equivalent to “trust me bro”. I know I’m being an ass but all I want is data to base my decisions on and the archery world is sadly lacking.
@ikerapt6702
@ikerapt6702 4 ай бұрын
@waynemorris1999 just my life experience. I live deer hunting and I'm very meticulous that's all. My biggest objections to these super heavy arrows is the lack of range and the real world accuracy issues do to wind, trajectory, etc. If you are shooting these heavy setups just for penetration, then penetration must have to be a real issue. If you start seeing misses high and low and still are wounding deer then by all means try my setup. Bow doesn't matter and fyi I have shot easton axis arrows and spitfire broadheads exclusively for about 20 years. For 15 years before that I shot heavy arrows and made fun of the "speed geeks" . Then one day I got a bow that happened to shoot 300 fps with a 400 grain arrow (Hoyt Alpha Burner ) and have never looked back. Currently shooting a 2014 Obsession Evolution at 70 lbs. I don't mean to bash RF but he seems like his way is absolute and I see alot of hunters shooting slow arrows with $100 broadheads unnecessarily.
@waynemorris1999
@waynemorris1999 4 ай бұрын
@@ikerapt6702 I must apologize for being an ass. Life sucks right now and I’m not at my best. It sounds like you are dialed in and are having great success. Good luck this season.
@ctyank4946
@ctyank4946 4 ай бұрын
The truth....
@NathanFleming5722
@NathanFleming5722 4 ай бұрын
Is there a confidence interval or any p value stating statistical significance in this study? 650 is statistically significant? Show it in the reports as a range for what is tested. Report is full of bias
@zhickman338
@zhickman338 4 ай бұрын
@@NathanFleming5722 Of course it is. I think he did the best he could at the time it was completed though.
@FISHUNTREECOUNTRY
@FISHUNTREECOUNTRY 4 ай бұрын
Lookin lean
@beaver_creek_outdoors2010
@beaver_creek_outdoors2010 4 ай бұрын
I punch shoulder every time ,, you mentioned other bones ? Sounds like a crappy shot
@OldDerelict
@OldDerelict 4 ай бұрын
Excrement happens!
@chrismasters8884
@chrismasters8884 3 ай бұрын
649 gr = 50%; 653gr = 100%. Got it. 😅
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 3 ай бұрын
@@chrismasters8884 Are you shooting a 3:1 Tuffhead or Grizzly? If not - nope
@ethan....
@ethan.... 3 ай бұрын
@@RanchFairy How do you think the new Magnus single bevel will stack up on this chart? Plan to do any testing on it since the angle of "work" is steeper?
@xterraman04
@xterraman04 4 ай бұрын
Is he your dad. You both look the same.
@TurkeyBowMaster300
@TurkeyBowMaster300 4 ай бұрын
His studies have led to more hit and lost animals than any other study. Setting up strictly for bone penetration causes problems on more common hits.
@RanchFairy
@RanchFairy 3 ай бұрын
@@TurkeyBowMaster300 wow that’s a really broad statement with zero proof. Dr Ed doesn’t advocate for intentional bone hits. “But prepare for when things go wrong”. So here’s your challenge. Start a you tube Channel. Post proof of your statement. I’ll be your first subscriber. Until then, we can watch you tube and see thousands of rib impact hits with badly designed arrows barely penetrate on deer, that does exist. My email is Troy@ranchfairy.com. When you start the channel and post your proof, email me. I am all in to learn more about your findings.
@zhickman338
@zhickman338 3 ай бұрын
@@TurkeyBowMaster300 if you’re talking about trajectory errors than definitely
@codycreager4428
@codycreager4428 4 ай бұрын
Clown post! Lol I just smashed a big bull elk last week with 418 grains out of a 80lb PSE Mach 30 quartering away at 35 yards with a SHWACKER nonetheless and he piled up in 80 yards
@anthonyforfare7223
@anthonyforfare7223 4 ай бұрын
You better stop making sense ! You’re gonna upset all the snowflakes ❄️😱😳🤯😆🤣😂🤣😂
@mikeschieuer9754
@mikeschieuer9754 4 ай бұрын
Yeah, you can skip the responding to stupid comments video. Love watching your vids but I don't think I'd be able to watch a 3 hour one. ;)
@ScottWConvid19
@ScottWConvid19 4 ай бұрын
"The animal gets a vote" ~ Dr. Ed Ashby I'm guessing it votes as an independent Independent of whatever our inclinations might be😂
@user-rw4qd7ev8x
@user-rw4qd7ev8x 4 ай бұрын
Jesus Christ just get a sharp broadhead practice at 20yds and go hunt
@YMS12121
@YMS12121 4 ай бұрын
Bones very in size and density invalid test and data
@ZimFarm24
@ZimFarm24 4 ай бұрын
I think the data was accumulated over many years and many animals. Talks about averages
@YMS12121
@YMS12121 4 ай бұрын
@@ZimFarm24 still not accurate can’t play scientist when you don’t have a control
@rohlfing63
@rohlfing63 4 ай бұрын
Yes, bones vary in size and density, but that does not invalidate Ed's work. He's talking about probabilities of penetrating "heavy bone". None of the analysis is talking about ribcage structure, rather it's focusing on things like scapula, leg bone, etc. Still varies, but if you read the actual study you'll find they have done a lot of good analysis to draw conclusions despite the bone variability.
@YMS12121
@YMS12121 4 ай бұрын
@@rohlfing63it’s bow hunting… I’ll stick to what works for me and what’s been working the last 20 years
@davehalm7362
@davehalm7362 4 ай бұрын
Are you new to the archery game?? Gotta be! You've got a lot to learn!
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