7... Problems with the Board Gaming Hobby

[@SoLove]

Having been in the hobby for 40 years I think the biggest problem currently in the hobby is too many board gaming KZbinrs doing paid previews to push the latest Kickstarter campaign

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

If only I could give you 500 thumbs!

[@zxccxz164]

so many SHILLS!!!!!

[@successfulgeek]

So what you are saying is the core issue is there aren't enough board game KZbinrs? Because if there were more that didn't make paid previews there would be more options to watch?

[@SoLove]

@@successfulgeek Way too many now. But the easy solution is just to ignore them. So many channels are telling you about the latest, greatest game ever but once the campaign is over that's it... no more content. Plus at Cons, it's getting more difficult to not trip over a KZbinr. with a selfie stick. But hey, I'm an old curmudgeon who prefers to play games than spend watching videos about them. I have a handful of channels (this one included) where the creators seem to enjoy the hobby rather than what they can get from it.

[@successfulgeek]

@@SoLove if we want the hobby to grow and improve it needs more exposure. The biggest board game KZbinrs have about 350k subscribers while a mediocre video game KZbinr has over a million. And there are way way more video game KZbinrs than board game KZbinrs.

[@spencerpalmer2918]

I hadn't thought about board game companies making their digital files available for purchase and printing, especially on out of print games. Good idea. Thanks for the video!

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thanks for watching!

[@mike8657]

Spot on. This was like listening to my thoughts. Kickstarter really does seem to be the cause of most of my complaints about the hobby - price hikes, delays, masses of unnecessary minis, exclusives. Much prefer wooden or standees with nice artwork over tons of plastic. I've pretty much stopped using it now except for Lacerda and a few other games.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment! Would be great if we could see a little change in the hobby!

[@elaineabreu282]

There is no reason for big established companies to be using kickstarter, and people who back those big companies are fools

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

These big companies are using it to raise profit margins, no other reason. Thanks for watching!

[@chezshirecat1872]

The kickstarter part is so true, I have several that are years behind now should have been delivered. Some creators are wonderful and I get everything quickly and several are slow and I am still waiting.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

So true, thanks for watching!

[@keithdm1313]

Great video. I agree with everything you talked about. Thanks for an honest look into the hobby. Things cannot improve unless we have an honest look at the situation, and your video brought very valid issues to the surface. Great Job!

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

thanks for taking the time to watch and comment!

[@robertthurman9866]

These issues have been discussed a lot the last year. In fact there is one channel almost exclusively dedicated to showing how one company is actively using all of these tactics on their victims, I mean customers. Basically as you stated, do not buy anything via Kickstarter. Wait for the retail version. I have done only 3 KS projects. One before the pandemic, the other two are over a year late. In both cases the companies have been giving regular updates on progress and one did ask for a nominal extra fee for delivery. The one that did ask for an extra fee went to the trouble of figuring out cost from their regional fulfillment center to my door. So no flat fee increase for shipping from them, just what was needed for me. I feel I am in good hands with both these companies.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

There are some good honest companies on Kickstarter who are just trying to be a small publisher and for them I hope they do indeed see success. thanks for watching!

[@AcevedoDMA]

I am mostly through the video and you make a lot of great points. I wanted to share two things. First is the idea of sending a file with things to print and 3-D print. Those files would be stolen so fast it sent to individuals. I believe the winning formula is to have specialty shops that print out board games for people. They would sign some type of disclosure and help to make sure files aren’t stolen. I imagine they would also be trained and ready to do a MUCH better job printing board game components then a random gamer. Secondly, you made a comment about the rule book and how the book should be fully understood without game creator participation. I wanted to share that this is exactly how writing compositions or arrangements in the music industry works. When music is received it needs easily understood by everyone to achieve the goal of the composer/arranger. In college, in our final exam for arranging, we would give our music and watch an ensemble struggle through sections and have to take notes on what things they didn’t understand. I imagine this would work perfect for rule books like your idea!

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I really considered your first point when I was pondering this video and I came to my own personal conclusion that I don't think it would be as wide spread as it could be. First of all not to pander but board gamers as a whole seem to be more willing to spend money on the hobby because they realize the profit margins are so thin (as opposed to video games for example). With scanners and the fact that a lot of board game assets are already available online (look at boards being available on neoprene sites like ... I think its called Inkscape who prints board games onto neoprene?). Then I looked at other smaller industries like RPG's and miniature wargames who all seem to have success with the PDF/print on demand services. Look at Modiphius and Osprey as examples of very digital game makers. I like your comments and would highly invite those kind of publishers to weigh in on how they handled the potential for piracy. Thanks for the well thought out comment and for watching!

[@craigdickie3130]

Been following you for a few years now and this is absolutely spot on! Thanks!

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thanks for watching and commenting!

[@notea6389]

I generally agree with you about learning new terms for traditionally accepted game lingo. But sometimes changing it works in favor of the game. Netrunner is a great example of this imo. I could not imagine calling R&D and Stack, the draw pile. It all just makes so much thematic sense.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Ah very good example! One of the few rare times it truly gels well!

[@alexstrang9823]

Awesome analysis! (I'm about to be more controversial, sorry...) I saw so much of this coming on the horizon (I'm dating myself) when I started publishing games in the late 90s. 1. Crowdfunding was a stellar concept at first (and could still be) but the phenomenon COMBINED with another issue has caused an out-of-control spiral... 2. that other issue: the REAL 'problem' is the allure of Chinese manufacturing. As more and more publishers took advantage of very cheap manufacturing, consumers became more and more accustomed to OVERPRODUCED boardgames. The expected 'standard' of bling kept rising, which in turn, raised the temptation to make glitzier and glitzier games. Don't get me wrong. I love eye-candy like Heroscape as much as many people, but I realised what cheap manufacturing would do to the hobby. It would diminish the chances of another 'Cheapass Games' success story occurring again. In a way, the increased expectations reminds me of Spielberg and Lucas (especially Lucas). After Star Wars hit the world, the expectations of audiences were for more of the same-style special FX. The previous eras of heavier science fiction (which didnt necessarily rely on FX only) gave way to Hollywood SFX laden superficial blockbusters. The rise of wholesalers also is a big factor, which did a lot to wreck the tradition distributor/retailer business model. To me, it was a 'perfect storm' of these factors

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Very well said and put. I woukd love for us to "right the ship" as the saying goes but I chat with a few indie designers and universally their biggest challenge "gaining traction without bling, while doing crowd funding" Thanks for watching!

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Forgot to add, Cheapass games, now there is a trip down memory lane.

[@AlaskaDad]

I absolutely agree! Kickstarter is very one sided. It doesn't do anything to protect (as you so aptly put) us donors. The most they do is to remind us that there is no guarantee that we will receive anything regardless of the success of the Kickstarter. This video embodies my feelings about Kickstarters very well. Now I just hope and pray that designers and publishers will see it and take notes.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thomas you are are an awesome human being! Thank you!

[@morgaknightgames]

I've also started getting the standee version of games this last year. I have so many miniatures already, it's so much easier to say no now since I have a proxy for pretty much everything.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Plus ... less pressure to paint.. lol Thanks for watching!

[@Santanilla]

Problem8: shelf space, so limited and precious space , I hate when games have unnecessary big boxes. Problem 9: Selling incomplete games in order to sell you the expansion for adding more players or “new” mechanisms that where already considered since the beginning .

[@justcallmefred]

I actually didnt get into enjoying board games until a few years ago. Lately, I have backed quite a few kicksterters. A few have been fulfilled, many are scheduled for the future. After hearing that there have been issues...I really hope I dont get burned.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Honestly, most kickstarters eventually ship. I would say 9 out of 10 are mostly fine. it's the fairly egregious 10% that really can get frustrating. Thanks for watching!

[@dandanita1692]

have you played most of top 100 bgg games? Im new to the hobby with about 20 games, all carefully selected after doing research on them, not necessarily in top 100, and they are seen as good to very good games by majority of community. Theres at least another 50-100 very good games out there i can get, before i will be looking at good and not very good options. So why you backing quite few games on KS? you played/got in your collection few hundred games and are running out of games? The problem is not the KS, is this community of brainwashed sheep, and it wont get any better, ever, i believe.

[@ingvar3072]

I agree with most of your points, except for the miniatures. I've come to board games from miniature painting, so I love to paint minis. Also I don't play every game I have every day, so most of the time my games are just boxes laying on the shelves. But I can place miniatueres on the shelves and get pleasure just looking at them. And I agree to pay more for joy of painting and looking at minis. The only downside of miniatures for me is that I buy them more than I have time to paint And it is possible to make even board games without miniatures cheaper: make meeples from plastic, not from wood, make cards from thinner cardboard, remove organizers. The box itself could be made from the packaging cardboard without colourful prints. But the feelings would be different. And I pay not only for the game mechanics, but also for feelings that the game gives

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

As someone who paints trust me I understand that feeling. I also get the I will never get all of this stuff painted in one lifetime issue as well HA! Thanks for watching!

[@willmolinar]

Great list! 100% agree on KS. Also, making your own board game is super fun and more people should try.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Most definitely! Thanks for watching!

[@jankogo]

You have got a lot of good points. I think many publishers are starting to use other platforms and their own funding campaigns.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I am interested where the hobby will go in the next few years, thanks for watching!

[@shawnvaljean9260]

I was recently having a conversation with my buddy about there being too many minis in games as well. There are many games that we have bought between us that just don't benefit from them. I personally love the charm of custom meeples (not that many games NEED these either).

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I am not sure why but custom meeples are so darn cool. Its like fancy dice, pointless but fun.

[@svachalek]

Lots of great points but I’ve been thinking about the last one lately with Oathsworn (and it ticks a few other boxes too). It would be just SO much more interesting if the theme was practically anything else. But on the other hand I can’t deny what sells, and that’s how markets work. I’ve also been thinking about how many games are built on fairly tragic aspects of human nature like war and colonialism, and mechanics like stealing from each other, lying to each other, and killing each other off. Like fantasy games there’s absolutely a place for that, a big place for that, but it would be interesting to see some more positive interaction both mechanically and thematically. There are some great examples like Pandemic where players are both thematically and mechanically working together to do something positive but I think there’s a huge unexplored space there.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

So very true. Where are the games about just space exploration, sea exploration (well I can think of 2 of those), I can think of only 1 game about genetics, 1 about oppression, and its jsut odd. I could wander a library for themes and ideas but board games are all stuck in the same section of the book store. Thanks for watching!

[@CG_Hali]

About cheaper retail: it's not just a couple dollar cheaper at retail in Canada. We're talking 35% usually for non-mini games! La Granja Deluxe Master set cost me $120 CAN, they said it would be super limited in store (which I took to mean you will barely have a chance to get it) and that it was at a reduced cost.... only to see it on pre-sale with tons of copies in Canada's biggest online store for $86 CAN (I paid $89 Euro which is 35% higher due to exchange rate and credit card exchange fees!!). 'Limited reduced price my ass'! Only one I got a good deal on is Everdell expansions, same or better than retail. But all others I've looked at on KS, didn't buy and waited for retail have been 35% cheaper to get PLUS didn't have to pay $15-25US for shipping which can make it up to 50% higher in the end! Oh and games get ship to the US first, then when they finish with US shipment they finally start shipping to Canadian backers... Now I have a bigger collection, I don't have the same FOMO :D My trick now: I sub to Oracle for alerts the minute a game I really want is on pre-order. If I don't get it, oh well. :)

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I remember getting Ares Expedition for $20 ($39 KS + $11 shipping), Sword and Sorcery $120 plus an alleged $100+ for shipping, purchased for $64. I can list many more and it is sad how this keeps happening. Thanks for watching!

[@kevinerskine3299]

Excellent video. 1) Kickstarter. Yeah, well said. I agree with everything you said. The only positive in my mind is that I believe many games that I love would never have happened without Kickstarter. For example, everything from Chip Theory games because the first game (Hoplomachus) would never have made it to retail. But yes, the all the bad are real and I've experiences almost all of them. 2/3) Yup. Fortunately, I don't suffer from being a completionist or worry that I'll miss a game. Too many others to play. Riffle will come back, but yeah I get it. 5) Yeah, I'm astounded at how many bad rulebooks there are. No argument here. 6) Given a choice, I'll always buy the standee version. And that's considering that I do paint, but I'd prefer to just play. I bought Kingdom Death and sold the minis (I have tons to proxy). The sale paid for the game. Astounding.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thanks for taking the time to comment and watch!

[@Mepper.]

I'm not a painter, so minis can be a negative for me either for the extra cost or the extra space. There can be even more problems with minis. For The Dwarves they created vastly different quality minis for the base game and the expansions even though both were manufactured at the same time. For The 7th Continent the minis are so small that you can't tell them apart from 2 feet away without painting them.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

So very true, thanks for watching!

[@carrickrichards2457]

I agree you have to accept that Kickstart is a donation system. Then it's not a concern if your game arrives in retail at 1/2 - 1/3 price you paid (with shipping); or if 'KS exclusive' or 'deluxe' is flimsy; and there are long delays. But what is alot cheaper in retail, will always feel wrong!

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

It is a sad truth and happens more often then not, another recent example was Mosaic, I enjoy the game but seeing the $79 + shipping KS Sphinx version in retail for $50 was kind of a nice kick in the teeth.....

[@thgenral]

I think you hit all seven nails on the head! Especially on the miniatures and themes. I have the money to buy games but I’m really resenting them being so high because of the minis.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

You and me both! Thanks for watching.

[@Exidos]

I am so against plastic miniatures. I have reached out to publishers to see if they can make a tier with standees and be told no. [facepalm] so I didn't back them.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Standees would save them money in the long run too. Assuming they could recycle art but I don't think anyone would be bothered by that. Thanks for watching!

[@calvanoni5443]

I mostly back small Indy games & miniature artists, I've never been disappointed. Backed over a 100.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

There are quite a few indi projects that are great but the overwhelming not indi and the problems they bring get frustrating at times. Thanks for watching!

[@fongstar]

Glad to see you bringing BGG hot topics forward and providing your thoughts. Brings amateur gamers like me in the know.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thanks for commenting and watching!

[@robertthurman9866]

I love your idea about making older games available via downloads. The only issue is that many games are retired due to licensing's issues as much as sales. Those won't be coming back even in digital form.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Very good point especially with licensed games and possibly some special contracts. I think Eagle actual writes their contracts like that for X amount of years. Hopefully a happy medium can be reached where after X years reverts to designer who has digital rights then?

[@joshhutchins6747]

Tabletop simulator has been a boon for this.

[@jeffersonwu952]

"Fifth player expansion. Kickstarter Exclusive!" That is really funny. The publishers really know your soft spot!

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

So true, you can probably hear me gnashing my teeth lol!

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Yes! You obviously designed it so this isnt a stretch goal its a carrot on a stick!

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

@Father Paolo, O.Pa. :)

[@johnpaisley4226]

Spot on about Kickstarter, regardless of the product by the way. These challenges abound whether it is Board Games, or anything else. Poor production and distribution planning seem to be challenges that also persist into companies that are born on Kickstarter and go on to sell more directly. Their customer service, generally, also woeful. I have bought tables and shelf storage systems from companies launched on Kickstarter that still treat the whole thing like the customer is .... well, definitely not King.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

So unfortunate and very true, thanks for watching!

[@Twotailedkit]

On the rule book front I was surprised by the recent die rulebook, the first 18 pages have you set up the board and explains stuff as you go. When the game is ready to start there is like 4 pages of rules at that point but you already understand a good amount of the concepts. Is it perfect…no, but it worked fairly well

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Another concept I don't see that would work is the pre-made set up walk through. Where the cards/components/etc are all packaged in a specific order and then the first few pages of the rulebook walk you through a preset dozen turns.

[@Twotailedkit]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews there are 2 or 3 games I think I would have to look at my collection to remember the names but it’s not common

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

@@Twotailedkit I think I recall one game in my collection did something similar with cards saying "DO NOT OPEN YET" but I can't recall which game it was.

[@Twotailedkit]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews Im currently getting ready to do a culling of my collection to open up space both so we can play again and to make it so that i have room for incoming games. When I come across them ill make a concerted effort to list them here for knowledge sake. I believe one of them was as you noted don't open this yet, ill figure that out as well. as a note while its not strictly board games Magic the Gathering beginner sets from portal had cards come in a strict order and guided you for 5 or 6 turns before taking off the lease.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

@@Twotailedkit I need to do a cull myself. Thanks for posting those games it would be great. I think I'll mosey through my collection and do the same, I think I might know the game, I can see it in my minds eye but I want to be sure!

[@acpudman]

I’ve decided not to back games on Kickstarter anymore. For the the reason of finding it on line cheaper and cheaper shipping cost while I’m still waiting on my copy.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I am backing a lot less projects these days. There are a few really small companies I want to support because they truly are "The little guy" but beyond that, not using KS that much either.

[@tofathi195]

Much better background than the old one, been watching you for some years now, do you have a bloodbowl 2 learn to play video?

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Not perfect but I did film this series kzbin.info/www/bejne/enmYimaffLitptE If there is enough interested I could do a full run down again! Thanks for the feedback as well and thanks for watching!

[@tofathi195]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews I have all the teams painted and i have never played, more than 20 teams i guess.

[@robbiemac13]

You can take my miniatures… out of my cold dead hands!! :)

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Lol, thanks for watching!

[@paulnolin862]

do agree with you and these are the reasons why I have never backed anything on kickstarter.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

It would be great if we could get more of a P500 system where you as a backer have guarantees, that is what I am willing to support. Thanks for watching!

[@paulnolin862]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews That I would support too. You are welcome.

[@hchb2000]

Great, thought provoking video. Made me realize how I miss the way the hobby used to be. I appreciate a lot of games KS made possible but not the way it re-shaped the hobby. As expensive as GMT shipping is, I would take P500 over KS any day. I guess I am more of a wargamer anyways.... I would add one other problem...Expansions!! How come a game that hasn't been printed/shipped/sold has a line up of expansions included for an extra price?? Like seriously, you haven't even gathered information from what will become your player base to know what things in your game need additional balance or are worth expanding upon. Some say those "modules" were part of the original design....so they are selling an incomplete version of the game for those who couldn't pay the premium...?? Some may argue that FFG and RG Dominion have been doing that for years, but I'd say there's 2 important differences: 1. There's development time from base game to expansion release,... and 2...no wonder FFG tend to have a 2nd edition, 3rd edition...etc... Oh and the minis.....to me, they clutter my view of the board and limit the game's potential..... I mean, look at Space Empires 4X, good luck creating something like that with minis.....

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

The expansion before delivery issue is becoming more common as well. Thanks for commenting and watching!

[@tablesaltgames]

I like to add that starch goals aren’t play tested throughly

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Such a very common occurence, some companies are more egregious than others! Thanks for watching!

[@barrywelling3868]

There's some good point here, but you say "I'm not gonna name names", right after you give a specific example, including the company name. There's also a bit of context missing RE Riffle Riffle was the "prize" for people solving the puzzle in an earlier CTG release. They've had them in several of their major releases, Usually free once you solve it. Does the limited availability make it frustrating for folks to get? Yes, But IMHO it's less of a short sell than it is a limited time reward.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thanks for commenting and watching!

[@blueseqperl]

The challenges you raise are solid criticisms. I don't back many games on crowdfunding, but I try to be judicious with backing. Without crowdfunding, niche games wouldn't be made. I just received Stonewall Uprising, a queer history game. I doubt a mainstream publisher would produce it.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I am not against crowd funding in its theory. Another poster made the comment that without crowd funding Gloomhaven wouldn't of happened which is a fair surmization. What I would loev to see is something much like the P500 system that GMT uses as an example. I have never had a problem with P500 such a nice system that is very pro consumer and designer at the same time.

[@blueseqperl]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews my comment wasn't in opposition of your argument. Just a statement of the benefit of the system. The challenge is the P500 system is there is little transparency of the actual status of the game development progress. There are several GMT Games that have successfully hit their P500 goals only to languish for years without any idea when the pre-order will actual deliver.

[@MrMaul80]

Totally agree with Kickstarter, I backed 4 projects and have got 2 of them with the other 2 hopefully being delivered this year.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I have a few I am not sure will ever deliver. Thanks for watching!

[@yantremblay-cote2597]

I'm not sure if CTG's Rifle is a good exemple. Because it is part of a riddle that we have to solve. Buy controlling how many people solve the riddle they can control their stock. For what I understand Rifle is a "test", it still contribute to manage stock and if the concept is valid.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

While admittedly a fair idea, solving the riddle wasn't a requirement. I don't even know what any of these riddles are, how they start, or what they require but I have Riffle shipping to me.

[@yantremblay-cote2597]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews note that Too Many Bones finally got a french translation. But they refused to translate the riddle extras. We'll see later if the extra stuff is added the futur boxes. I know that's what Lucky Duck Games did with Spirit Island

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

@yantremblay-cote2597 honestly Too many bones has so much available for it I wouldn't worry about it. Eventually it will get translated and by then you will have tons of other content. Thanks for watching!

[@cmiggiani]

I stopped cold turkey on Kickstarter after getting screwed on the Super Dungeon Explorer that never delivered. I can understand that it is a calculated risk and a donor system. But for a project that garnered close to $2m and a $300 pledge, there's no reason except for incompetent management that my investment wasn't returned. Too many of these kickstarters are managed by blue-haired kids rather than professional Sr. project and product managers. I wait for retail now as well. 100% Totally agree on feeding the scalper fleas too. That needs to go.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

That Super Dungeon Explore KS was so terrible, so much potential squandered with what really seems like mismanagement. Thanks for watching!

[@cmiggiani]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews Agreed. I was REALLY looking forward to that game. It was the biggest pledge I ever made and the most I ever lost. Anyway, Thanks for your content. I've been watching your channel for a while. Great work!!

[@stephaniegill8392]

I am waiting on a game I backed that is now over 4 YEARS over due! Yes, there was COVID, but seriously, my $80 is now worth $60. I am regularly emailed updated but I honestly think they now have an overblown beast that could have been tamed and reasonably produced by a seasoned game company.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

That truly is the struggle of these very small producers where one person wears all the hats of design, art, publishing, manufacturing etc. I really would like them to wait for further design progress before moving to crowd funding.

[@zxccxz164]

why people give money so willingly is unreal to me.......i pay 50% to taxes and the rest to inflation.....i don't have time to filter through the scam artists....hope it imploads and let the strong and ethical survive....you can only play so many games

[@roberts5647]

why are some people concerned that kickstarter is not a preorder system and other people don't like that kickstarter is essentially "just" a preorder sytem.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

While for some it does come down to semantics and as long as both sides (seller/buyer) are keeping things fair on both ends that is really all it is. The challenge is created when you have unscrupulous project creators or when you have backers who can get unreasonable about what rights they have as backers.

[@mikegrant8031]

If a manufacturer does not have a MSRP is should be dropped from distribution. No MAP policy leaves the retailer in the wind.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thats another issue worth diving into. Thanks for watching!

[@ROOKTABULA]

#1 Collections get too large for people that aren't immortal. #2 Collections get too large for people that aren't immortal. #3 Collections get too large for people that aren't immortal. #4 Collections get too large for people that aren't immortal. #5 The industry is at the mercy of Chinese manufacturing. #6 Considering the price point that some greatly appointed games turn a profit at, while other games are _insanely_ priced with similar or lesser components, gamers have to stop being lemmings: _Stop_ buying overhyped, over priced products! #7 Collections get too large for people that aren't immortal. (I have one hundred and eighty fecking seven of them).

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

LOL thanks for the good laugh and thanks for watching!

[@simpelton524]

CMON used to be an easy all-in on everything for me. Now they're an easy pass. I don't hate them, but there are some serious competitors that have overshadowed them imo.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I fully agree, thanks for watching!

[@theshogunstein6475]

Good video, great topic. Despite some "sus" campaigns, inflation, supply chain issues, shipping issues, I see no sign of people not still backing a lot of games of KS and some of those people ok with never getting those games. As long as that is the case, things are not going to change. While it is free will and nobody is forcing people to do it, there is a tremendous amount of overspending in this hobby and again despite all thing like 50$ to fill your car with gas and 5$ eggs, people still keep buying. So why would things change? If I really want a KS game, I think waiting for the retail pledge at a FLGS is the way to go. Even better, just wait until the cult of the new wears off in a month or two and get the games gently used.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Very well said, thanks for watching!

[@DJ-mz7td]

I wouldn't argue with a thing he said. I feel taken myself, not supporting much anymore.

[@Ironmaul]

It would be a nice option to be able to buy the games without the miniatures.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Especially for those of us with mountains of miniatures, Thanks for watching!

[@Edtheworst]

I don't think the number 1 game in BGG is ever happening w/o kickstarter... just saying. I agree with all your points though. Nice for someone to speak out the real problems.

[@jkadisak]

I agree with this. Kickstarter overload and abuse is real (CMON), but there are some games that would never exist without it. We the gaming community need to change our behaviors on what we back or game companies will just continue to abuse the system.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Gloomhaven couldn't have happened at its price point and its a double edged sword. On one hand no but on the other hand Jaws of the Lion could. I really enjoyed Laws but never completed Gloomhaven. Its an interesting thought to look at both halves.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

@Joe in AZ so very very true.

[@VaultBoy13]

2. Printing up your own content is its own hobby. There needs to be a company that can reliably and affordable print on demand. And, the other key part is the price to do that can't be more expensive than the secondhand market for the game. 3. The problem with exclusives isn't that they exist. It's that people are stupid enough to buy them on the secondhand market. They willing choose to pay more to make their game worse. 6. I agree that there are a lot of games with unnecessary miniatures. Great Wall is minis without reason to use minis. It'd be great to move away from that. You're right to complain about the price of Heroscape, but it's ridiculous to suggest that it should be a miniatures game. 7. I was able to think of 11 space dungeon crawlers. It's not exactly a setting the genre is lacking. Fantasy and Horror have more representation, but space is pretty well represented. But, there's a lot of settings for where dungeon crawlers that are under utilized. While I'd like more diversity with board game settings, I don't think there's a lack of variety. It's more that variety is rarer. Most publisher just crank out another board game trope. It's another one of those Euro games named after a city. It's another horror game based on Cthulhu (or zombies). Or, it's another game based on a "hot" IP.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thanks for commenting and watching!

[@kitcarpo4745]

The eBay markup doesn't have to be so much. Just be patient. It comes down before too long.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

My opinion is that most of the stuff that goes to ebay is just junky fomo and a decent amount of KS's end up reasonably priced at retail if you are patient enough. All the CMoN games I ever purchased I paid nearly half price for on Amazon, I just had to wait a little while.

[@kitcarpo4745]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews Spot on. It take a while to find the good prices, because there are plenty who charge what they can and other that try to set a benchmark without sales. However, I am boycotting Amazon. I always like a KS version over the retail. TWoM was different and I was happy with the retails.

[@jwspiker]

Stars of Akarios is unique and kinda fills that area you mentioned of space dungeon crawl i think

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I think i vaguely jeard of that one, is it any good? Sorry dungeon crawl junky here.... lol

[@jwspiker]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews just came out this summer, rule book could use some work, but I've seen some great vids, people seem to really like it if they like it. It's a campaign Dungeon crawl from what I saw, but it could be worth a try at least, but it does fail to meet your desire of supporting 5 players, it does have a solo mode that I hear is good as well.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

@@jwspiker Hmmm still temping with solo. As a 4 player only it wont get to the table on game nights but I could be tempted for solo gaming!

[@CookieOutaSight]

Excellent. I agree across the board

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thanks for watching!

[@grog3514]

I agree with all of this, but I still backed foundations of Rome.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Ya.... I am still a little hypocritical myself and backed the Mosaic expansion..... ugh I should be sucker punched.....

[@rinaldodelucca8073]

How to fix a rulebook: hire an instructional designer. If you cannot afford to hire an instructional designer to write the rulebook, don't publish the game. I do create rulebooks for almost all of my games, so we can always just sit and play games in a fast and easy way, even if we didn't play that game for months and months.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

This is exactly it. Someone with outside eyes needs to evaluate the rulebook. If you designed the game you have a natural blind spot to your own rulebook falacies! Thanks for watching!

[@rinaldodelucca8073]

Another problem with rulebooks: mediocre translations (German>English and/or French>English). Troyes translation to English is just ridiculous, the guy just decided to let some parts out of the translation (solo mode).

[@GamingRulesVideos]

I agree with so many of these!

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thank you for taking the time to watch and comment!

[@jwspiker]

be great to see some videos on 3d printing, and which one's are good ones to get, i'm wanting to get a 3d printer for inserts alone but worried about the size requirments.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I love the 3d printing hobby and it is VERY MUCH a hobby with lots of finicky things that you need to learn. I honestly think me suggesting a few key KZbin channels would do a lot more justice for you. Having said that: I prefer PVA vs resin due to ease of use and chemical simplicity. Resin is superior for speed and looks but if you are not making high end models (think CMoN and better) PVA is perfectly good. For a good PVA look for $300. Get the largest build plate you can afford, its the main bottle neck. I can answer any other Qs

[@MichelC2000]

Says the KZbin channel which pushed hard Hyperspace from Petersen Games and all its minis 😛 Sorry, couldn’t help it. That game surely hits a lot of your boxes 🤣

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I so want Hyperspace! Ugh thanks for reminding me of the $400 i have sunk into that one. The idea of a space game in 2 hours was so magical too..... blarg. lol thanks for watching.

[@MichelC2000]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews I also had the all-in pledge but jumped ship 2 years ago... There are many other games, existing already or coming 🙂

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

@@MichelC2000 I am still hoping. It is scheduled next, so maybe January 2023, we can hope!

[@zxccxz164]

#1 EXPENSIVE....ridiculously so

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

So true with some campaign projects. I have seen them go well over $400 with shipping for a single board game!

[@kitcarpo4745]

If you would not invest in junk bonds, you should not invest in Kickstarter. What a waste. Keep your money untill you can get what you pay for it when you pay for it.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I used to be a big fan of Kickstarter, not so much anymore. I "back" those that are obvious "preorders" such as 2nd print of "Oathsworn" or very indi publishers I want to support because I think they have a good idea "Rogue Angels: Legacy of the burning suns."

[@kitcarpo4745]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews Same here, I went for ISSV after the first wave was in my house (from another seller). Now I will have two copies of wave 1. AR seems like a better company than that one....Mystery or something.

[@dav1dgear]

It's ok if the game is cheaper in retail or if it's available earlier in retail as long as the one running the ks company does not promise it on the campaign. But if the campaign says you'll get it earlier then retail or you'll get it cheaper, but it turns out that is not the case, then it's a flat out lie and you should never ever backed anything from that company anymore

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thanks for watching!

[@suntzugames]

Good points, Michael. Keep it up :)

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thanks Emil and thanks for taking the time to watch and comment!

[@mikeforner7797]

same here..never have kickstarted anything

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I have taken a major step back from Kickstarter and vet things very very closely. I know there are a few games I will Kickstart in the future but those are because I feel extremely co fident in the designer. Thanks for watching.

[@JasonBrown-st5if]

I have to disagree with you re cmon kickstarters. While you can get the base game cheaper your really backing the kickstarter for the exclusives. I have several problems with them, the biggest one is the size of their kickstarters. If you want the expansions (especially here in the uk) you can't be certain they will even release them so you get hit with FOMO and that is before you can even try the game to see if you like it. Then, of course, are their business practices. I will only ever back with $1, if I do back. Mind you I have enough games and the game would have to be something special for me to back.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Valid point but the exclusives with CMoN are another major frustration for me. If I didn't Kickstart it I am not going to bother getting the game because I know they have gameplay exclusives. Thanks for watching!

[@jonahfalcon1970]

It's a donation, not a preorder.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

True. When both parties (Creator and backer) play nicely with each other its a okay system, it's when one half isn't playing nice that it all goes downhill. Thanks for watching!

[@DarthNVious]

Board Gaming is an obsolete medium. CPU gaming has better presentation, more efficient bookkeeping (just imagine playing Slay the Spire as an actual card game), less downtime, less storage space requirement, zero possibility for component loss/theft, and most of all less physical human interaction (because gamers are highly toxic and prone to violence especially when losing). The only reason I collect a few is to have something to waste time during catastrophe-induced power failures. Some games I purchased for their collectable nature (like Star Wars Rebellion).

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

For many it is the tactile and the socialness that keeps us bellying up to the table. I am also a huge tech fan married to a tech fan who is a huge fan of VR, we occasioanlly discuss where things will go in the future and I wonder where VR will take us. Thanks for watching!

[@DarthNVious]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews Glad to hear. VR will not take us far. The end of the World is near and the impending global economic crisis will result in worldwide holodomor. AI is the next step of evolution. Embrace AI.

[@brusslysb]

Great video.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thank you for commenting and watching!

[@jdtyler7]

Wood & cardboard > plastic

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

So true for a lot of games! Thanks for watching!

[@diamondmeeple]

I would have followed your channel if you had covered the good games ;-)

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

I thought I was covering good games! Humor me, define good ... ;)

[@nipzie]

I agree with you especially about miniatures. I like a few, but armies of them just make it awful to manage and store

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

Thanks for watching and commenting, such a pain to store all these mountains of plastic!

[@nipzie]

@@OffTheShelfGameReviews yeah I've learned that I really don't like stopping play to go get a miniature out of a tray from the box. Now acrylic standees...I am in love with them.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

@@nipzie I love wooden meeples, not sure why, but to me they are perfect for games!

[@WhatsDaveUpTo]

lol a fool and his money are soon parted