The board game crowdfunding industry is falling apart, and it's obvious why.

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[@davidarlington1206]

The one that really fries me the most was Holy Grail Games and Rallyman Dirt, which they managed to ship to retail outlets (I can buy it right now from Amazon or Miniature Market or whatever, even Tractor Supply!) but then they went out of business before shipping to backers and shafted all the backers who funded their retail product sales. That takes real balls.

[@neilsiddons-smith1574]

Hi. I was one of the fortunate backers who did receive the game. Not sure how many if us there are. I am uk based. I know this does not help and a mate of mine in the same city did not get his. Not good for aĺ of you who did not get it.

[@Zorogundam19]

I backed Street Masters Tide of the Dragon. Look at the crap Blacklist Games pulled. I only backed for the new stuff. My game group is out collectively $1100 for 2 copies of the game and all the expansions.

[@darinlagarry3091]

I’m one of those backers. We are trying to obtain our pledges from the liquidator. A real pita.

[@JohnSugden-bm7ww]

It doesn't take balls. It takes a lack of accountability by the plaforms.

[@mikejonesnoreally]

When you have a market segment as "safe" as the idiotic concept of "backers" of COURSE you're going to screw them! The company doesn't have to give you DICK! An' you think they WON'T use that?? Are you new to the planet by chance? xD

[@davidsocha3765]

I think the biggest problem now is that companies are trying to add miniatures, deluxified components, and gimmicks to games to justify charging higher prices. It's a niche industry and competition is fierce in the space, so the drive is to get the consumer at higher price points to maximize profit off a single large sale. It's squeezing out people who can't afford that, and creating a feedback loop to push prices even higher to get more from those who can afford it with more ridiculous content. The other problem is inflation in overseas manufacturing and shipping costs are unpredictable. It's simply not as cheap as anymore to manufacture things in China, and shipping costs are constantly fluctuating significantly. So selling games at higher price points is necessary. But at some point consumers are going to realize, that while we love them, these are just board games and they are feeling squeezed by inflation in so many more important areas of their life.

[@joeferreti9442]

As far as I know Stretch Pay is just buying on credit and paying in smaller payment over several months. Most people should stay away from that. Even if Stretch Pay is offered without interest costs it still bears risks for you. At the very least it makes you buy more stuff than you could afford. What is really positive is the Stable Pledge guarantee, which at least guarantees the option of a full refund if the creator requests more money after the campaign.

[@SeanUCF]

What got me to back a lot of games early on that I shouldn't have was KZbinrs. I won't name any names, but I started to realize that there was a different tone a lot of times between a preview for a game on Kickstarter and game that has seen a full release. So I started becoming a lot more skeptical of the hype that these KZbinrs were generating and now I put more thought into what I should back before I go with their hyped opinion.

[@TheKingofAverage]

A very solid lesson learned I think. And I'm not saying I'm exempt from it either. My hype for Mythic Games prototypes I played caused me to back poorly too :(

[@awpacuda]

100% the hype machine is real. The issue that backers need to take in consideration when watching these videos, is that the content creators generally can afford to "love" everything since they are most likely not paying anything out of pocket for their pledges or even get compensation for their coverage for some. Shrug. Take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt

[@tiredguy2753]

There are some board game KZbinrs whose channel is more or less the hype man or auxiliary marketing dept for whatever new ks game. So when you are watching the “hype man” board game KZbinrs, you just have to watch with a more critical, a more careful eye.

[@NateCochrane]

A particular ‘influencer’ makes a selling point if their content that they say one thing to their Patreon subscribers and something quite different to their (free) KZbin subscribers.

[@nipzie]

@@NateCochrane what? Seriously?

[@adamV1P]

There's just too many choices that cost too much money now. The industry has jumped the shark. I ran out of shelf space and stopped buying months ago and still have 23 open campaigns worth over $5,000 in money spent. I have multiple cabinets, closets and kallaxs filled with games, expansions, play mats, and accessories. The prices are getting crazy too. I am averaging over $200 a campaign and its all for stuff that I cant possibly play enough of before the next one shows up. My backlog is only growing and playing feels forced at this point. I know its all my fault for buying that much so fast but its certainly worth reflecting on. I may pick up a small box here and there if it looks really accessible and easy to table but I have enough big box stuff to last a lifetime. I'm effectively bowing out because the hobby is getting too hard to keep up. I assume others are and will do the same.

[@Bibliophilo]

Agree with all you said. I have nearly complete stopped buying games. Too much stuff. And in the end it has damaged my enjoyment of the hobby as well.

[@CosmicTavern]

I ran out of space too.... :(

[@jhash2625]

Right there with you.

[@ortizlzitro]

Same here.

[@kaijuh]

I am selling off games as I type this

[@philliplegrand384]

As prices increase and more companies fail, the more informed backers will be less likely to fund big games. This would probably leave only big IP games in the space as it would bring people from outside the hobby space, so indies struggle. I'm very much guilty of backing these huge co op games though 😅

[@TheKingofAverage]

Oh super well put! There's something to be said of how while new backers might have the quantity, it's the oldtimers that are the "whales" of the industry (the all in buyers). If they are souring on products then companies have a big problem indeed.

[@xonerate371]

Yeah but the prices ‘increase’ because false inflation is affecting all areas of business by priniting debt bonds for endles hp, credit cards and mortgages; and who controls the value of your hard earned cash?

[@mikejonesnoreally]

If you were informed you wouldn't BE a backer in the first place! xD

[@stuck804]

Take it or leave it, here are some of my observations : 1) Increased competition in other forms of entertainment - I'm specifically looking at video games as they are cheaper, more accessible, less space, etc. 2) Lack of trust - surprised shipping costs, terrible customer service, contributions, mismanagement, etc. 3) Oversaturation - It's a lot harder now for creators to stand out 4) Inflation - Games cost more 5) Lack of incentives - With tighter household budgets, backers are pickier and need more reasons to back.

[@michaelb8111]

Great assessment and well stated on all points! Thanks

[@TheKingofAverage]

Solid list. I'll add a few more I can think of: 6) Time. With the surge of Kickstarter that started in 2019 and ended in early 2022 there was a swell of people ordering things. Those are now delivering and people are realizing the storage and time issues that come up. This makes people more picky. I see it happen all the time in new backers versus ones after a swell of deliveries. 7) Short term growth leading to long term issues. With the newer focus on IP games to bring in new backers by a much larger degree, you get the issues new backers provide, but an a more unmanageable percentage. Brand new backers don't know to read updates, didn't realize there'd be a Pledge Manager, are surprised by shipping rates and have no real sense of how big of an item they are ordering more often than not. All that combined with a different expectation to crowdfunding/board game cost. 8) Dev expectations. In regards to #6, time, I've spoken with several devs that didn't realize it was temporary and expected their future campaigns to continue to do as well or better as they were doing. That is, they felt it was their company's natural growth that would continue and not a perfect storm scenario for backer swelling before the bubble burst. When the bubble did burst, they were caught off guard financially not just for increased costs but because their company was now making less, not more.

[@CheddahSlammer]

Don't know if I agree with number 1, just because I am a vid game player and a board game player. I tend to buy both, and honestly go to get board games more so then vid games. Like its odd 85$ board game and i'm all in, but a new vid game comes out at 60$ and I won't get it. Also from others I know, vid game players already won't buy a board game. Board game players tend to not play vid games, and if they do their more board game like vid games.

[@michaelb8111]

@@CheddahSlammerI actually left the video game industry because of shady anti-consumer practices in search of something more tangible. But all good thing come to and end, I guess.

[@CheddahSlammer]

@@michaelb8111 I can see that. Personally I don't buy many AAA games, all the games I play are indie, and indie games are thriving right now. Right now I am playing Patch Quest, and Inscription and their both fire.

[@jawsvvvvv]

It is just contraction in the business of Crowdfunding. It happens in all businesses expansion then contraction. Businesses that suck at management lose money and leave the business. Backers like me learn that there are bad companies and stop backing those projects and are more picky about what they back. Nothing new just new us in the board game community....

[@PRC533]

I think the big difference is that in traditional business, investors actually have legal standing. Either through ownership of part of that business, or profit sharing. Backers assume the same risk with none of the benefits. So when companies start to fail at crowdfunding, it leaves a lot of people out money for something that was honestly sold as a preorder rather than a true investment.

[@GlitchLock]

This sucks a lot. I'm still bitter about the fact that I never received and will never receive my copy of Windward. I tried a last ditch effort to contact the shipping company and they looped in the publisher and he sent me a message saying it was their fault but didn't provide them the info requested.

[@Nautingaz]

To be very honest, I felt quite secure when I backed Village Attacks. - Was just mostly a reprint - Solid Rating on BGG (around 8 back then I guess) - Village Attacks widely available in retail (even here in Germany) Yeah.. 2nd Campaign I have been burnt completely... and I fear with my money in Petersen Games and Mythic Games as well... I will still lose more. Too bad that, making Games and making good (profitable) business are 2 complete different things: Petersen Games "Planet Apocalypse" is my N°1 Game and Mythics "Solomon Kane" is a one of a kind and reaaalllyyy good as well!

[@Nautingaz]

P.S.: And Yes, I would have prefered to pay 200$ extra to make sure I get my pledge now (after having almost 500$ in it, including shipping)

[@TheKingofAverage]

Exactly! It'd hurt less if the games were kind of meh right? :) Good point on the reprint, though I learned since then through Dragori and such that having that many SKU's makes it a nightmare to produce and ship logistically. As it stand now I'd not touch any game with that many.

[@DeadneckL]

They definitely should have consolidated all those small expansions into one.

[@mikejonesnoreally]

BBG is where shills are MADE. You deserved to lose your money. xD

[@Brannen666]

I would rather have the option of getting it by paying more or just cutting my loses. I back 6:Siege and have paid the extra to get my game. (Thankfully my pledge was a modest one)

[@sergiogentil3093]

Nooo. 😭 I knew it was coming, finally saw the writing in the wall about a year ago. I went all-in on Village Attacks figured most of it was reprint and I thought that would keep development cost low. Very frustrating, think I need to stop crowd funding until companies respect us enough to communicate with us throughout the whole process.(knowing how things went down would allow me to empathize with these companies)I earn as much as a bagger at my place of work, so at this point I've lost over 4 paychecks worth of Kickstarter in almost as many years. Makes me sad because I am ok with people trying to do something and failing just hate not knowing how my investment was mismanaged is aggravating.

[@mikejonesnoreally]

So don't buy something you don't own? Kinda' simple really. Sucker! xD

[@calvanoni5443]

Closets have filled up plus everywhere else, & money is tightening, so it was going to happen!

[@SeanUCF]

Yeah that's the boat I'm in. I've literally run out of physical space and since there is such a lag time between backing and getting the game, you can all of a sudden find 3 new huge games at your front porch with nowhere to put them and more on the way.

[@calvanoni5443]

@@SeanUCF You set them on the tables or piled to the roof in a corner! 😂

[@Sleevomat]

1.000 % nope. It‘s the companies‘ task to calculate, analyze the market and make products attractive. They simply can‘t manage a business and think, this can be driven by snowballin, being dishonest and naiv. They messed up. Whether that‘s petersen games, blacklist, grimlord, mythic or holygrail. This is my no means the customers‘ fault. Companies tried to hold the pace on more sucessful companies like CTG, Mindclash and co.. They tried this by less than mediocre gameplay, nonexisting customer support, offering ridicolous amounts of stuff and couldn‘t build retail or online shop sales or manage to reach sound second market value. Blaming the customer is like laughing about the victim.

[@alexpartenopei1021]

I stopped backing crowd-funded campaigns in 2019 and have no regrets. Looks like it has largely been an utter clown-show the last few years with higher prices, outragious shipping and worst if all, increased dishonesty.

[@TheKingofAverage]

man yeah you left at exactly the high point. Fall of 2019 was the absolute pinnacle and it's been on a general downward slop since. Still some great games of course, but as a general trend it's not been great.

[@dgeci]

EACH WEEK some new games announced on KS with price points going from 100 to 300 euros or more which will be delivered with 15 boxes... So many. While the number of players is not growing. How can it be healthy ? It was clear for me since a long time that this industry was a big bubble ready to blow out. I bought one game once on KS and I just stoped. It's not a way to publish games. It feels as abusive and predatory as monetisation for mobile games. Does somebody realise that it's completly insane that extensions (I call them DLCs) are sold and created for the release of the main game. It's not supposed to be like that. It's a perverted system. It's just sick. And big companies have nothing to do on fckg KS. Get the f out of there and go back to stores !

[@Bibliophilo]

Amen.

[@Tysto]

I don't buy anything that doesn't already exist.

[@hughroe8598]

I think companies do need to limit how much content they are developing for each release. A great example is stormsunder. While I feel stormsunder is going to be a great game and will be finished (at least wave 1) it's a game that should have been done as 3 kickstarters, not one and the scope creep has caused the project time line to derail significantly. I honestly thought there was risk it would deliver at all but the dev has since pivoted into the much more profitable and easier to produce (no rules needed) minatures to fund it's existing commitments. The smart devs have reduced the amount of game content and shifted to more accessories. For example archons new tainted grail had a much more limited scope then the original likely to keep down costs.

[@gospelofrye6881]

What are the storms under?

[@cs4mo]

Will never give my money to a kickstarter. Especially if youtubers and influencers hype it up. A company should make and develop a product to sell on their own. There's this thing called bank loans. And if you fail, you aren't robbing innocent people who bought in to your false money grabbing dream. No you'll just be in debt to a bank and try again. Don't sell me your politics, don't sell me a dream. Sell me a game or a drink or a beer whatever the product may be. This new age of "Influencers" and "reviewers" is trash. Social media hypeists.

[@Zarfin]

I feel the good kickstarter times are over and the board game industry should focus on retail again like it used to be. We all have enough multi-box miniature games anyway.

[@iansutton7416]

I've certainly made a strong effort that if I'm backing a game, I'll be very selective in what I'll include. Whilst I've never gone 'all-in' on one of the big $300-$500 campaigns, I've made a conscious effort to recognise the FOMO the campaigns encourage, and that's most noticeable in leaving a number of gameplay expansions out, not just minis / other cosmetic add-ons.

[@rcantero1]

great on you, @iansutton7416! i now wish i would've walked away from backing so many campaigns at the all-in levels. it would've deterred all the more headaches and nausea inducing moments of having to pay additional fees or simply waiting and wondering whether or not the games will even show up. what a mess!

[@ortizlzitro]

Me too. I hit the ground running in 2020 and backed everything. then found out I can late pledge, what?! I went ham. So far this year, I backed one game. I'm so much more selective and recognize FOMO much clearer these days.

[@admiralcbass1786]

Prefer the choice of paying the extra as opposed to a total lost.

[@seansmith2650]

Sunken cost fallacy at its finest

[@michaelb8111]

I don't want to throw good money after bad.

[@matthewjones1913]

I always prefer options, those that don't want to don't have too and those that are willing to give it higher value to achieve it can.

[@TheErnieforss]

Im with you. I wish i had a time machine and not back it. But if i have to pay more for the product....i have to pay more for it. Better than just giving them money for nothing

[@derekgarcia3069]

​@@seansmith2650 to an extent, but if you still want the game, why not? I'd rather spend $500 and get the thing I want vs $300 lost and $200 on something I want less. Though this is specific to Anastyr and MonPoc for me as they are both higher on my wishlist than most games I'm likely to receive! 😂

[@TheGriever66]

Danger is that mythic asks more and more money then shut down anyway

[@ironhide0575]

I saw the writing on the wall during when Endure the Stars 1.5 was having delays and they were waiting for Everrain campaign to end.

[@Nethezbet]

Honestly, I feel that Mythic's decision showed they were incompetent, not malicious. Mythic WANTS to fulfill their promises, but they could have walked away.

[@dominicmetzger3246]

It’s amazing how the gamers are so easily caught by kickstarter exclusives. As a retailer I’m getting almost every box of the new Witcher game probably before backers. The cost is so much cheaper! Players then don’t even play the kickstarter games it feels like, they just collect boxes

[@mikejonesnoreally]

i usually HAVE to buy online though because Board Games have allowed so much GARBAGE in that it's not really possible to stock *everything* and i have some......particular tastes. To some The My Little Pony Tranformers Deck Builder is utter insanity that none will buy but to me, it's proof that Mel Brooks "The Producers" will never die. xD Point is, if i walk into your store to buy something and you offer to order it for me as if i can't damn well do that *myself* i'm not walking into your store again. We don't *have* an "F"LGS anymore. xD

[@nipzie]

The biggest issue is KZbinrs feeding FOMO. It's all just LIMITED TIME promotional content now. I can't understand how people can look a camera in the lens, say how much fun the prototype is, then. Get the full game and suddenly it's "just ok" and leaving their collection. How tf is a finished product blah when the prototype was amazing? When it comes to the choice, additional money for shipping, if reasonable is ok. Better if there's promos to throw you a bone. What mythic is doing...not even producing until you pay again...they can rot in hell. They lied about 6 siege being done and deliverable in 6 months. They're continually vague in their numbers to justify needing more money. Take whatever money you have left, split it up depending on the pledge amounts, and close up shop. You'll never sell a new campaign again anyway. Good riddance from the hobby

[@TheKingofAverage]

I've spoken on this a few times. It's genius business. Get paid placement of the prototype, say it's great. Get game for free. Do unboxing of the game. Do review of the game. Include it in a top 10 and a topic video. Then a cull video. Then sell it. Suddenly you just monetized a free game like 5 times over. I'm not saying it's done maliciously mind, but it's certainly very beneficial. And very solid point about 6 Siege supposedly being "done"!

[@AnnihilateApocalypse]

Ironically it was me being poor that saved me from backing village attack

[@TheKingofAverage]

Hah! Bullet dodged then right? Kinda haha :D

[@bryanscollick8305]

Excellent points- consumers have so much more power than we know or use.

[@spike2439]

Awaken Realms, Garphill Games, and a few others are really the only companies that can be trusted to deliver their projects.

[@bmwracer67]

This modern kickstarter/gamefound culture is more about buying games than it is about playing games. Games are bloated with excessive amounts of content with mediocre game mechanics, because pretty pictures of "content" is what sells and what allows one to set a high price for a game on kickstarter. When it comes to board games, less is more in my opinion. I'd take a smaller game with excellent ideas and satisfying game mechanics over another one of those bloated video game ports riding the kickstarter wave.

[@samhowe9986]

While it's good advice about not backing a campaign with tons of expansions if the company has not delivered anything like that before, but if people had followed that advice it would also meant A:TO and Oathsworn would never have been made as both are massive games made by 1st time game studios.

[@TheKingofAverage]

I think they could have delivered, just not had EVERYTHING in one Kickstarter. Same with Village attacks. It'd just be multiple campaigns. First launch just Cycle 1. Then have another KS for 2-3 more and end it with the last few. You deliver quicker, have more opportunities for backers to join in and have much less risk to your company that way.

[@deano2099]

A:TO could easily have been a base game Act 1 and two expansions as different campaigns. Oathsworn would be trickier, but I'd actually argue that Oathsworn isn't a "huge" game at all. It just has minis at a very large scale so comes in lots of boxes and looks big. It's still a large game but not quite to the same extent.

[@darrenwoodman6656]

I am not backing anything else until the 20 odd products that I have backed arrive. Mythic Games and this information today, thank you, has totally turned me off continuing to fund anything else. So happy you're making these videos your insight and Information is so valued. Loosing almost $500 to HEL has totally burnt me. Cheers

[@TheKingofAverage]

Same here. Thankfully I'm only out about $250 in Hel, but backed Anastyr and 6:Siege as well. I'm glad I could help you make a good decision for you. I still feel there's good companies making good games out there, but I hope to feature the indies more, and to keep a closer eye out for danger as well.

[@ant6227]

I feel like you might be misrepresenting how big Grim Dynasty was, that project was an expansion. They had delivered 90% of what is on that campaign page in the past with the first village attacks Kickstarter which had fully delivered and was on store shelves at the time. The entire project was for one expansion and a reprint of existing material. If anything it should have been a safer back than most projects, that's why they didn't even have a full year for delivery because all of the design and pre-production work was completed. I think the issue with that project was our use of KS as a store and the casual acceptance of delays. To the former you could buy most of the content at retail, and should have, but why not buy it all at once and unlock a stretch goal? Now we know why not. Regarding the latter, we used to just say all KS campaigns are 6 months late don't worry about it. But for grim dynasty because there was no actual development occurring it was supposed to go immediately into production after the PM. 6 months into the campaign when production hadn't started instead of saying oh don't worry about it these are always late, it should have been a major red flag for everyone involved to back out. Unfortunately at that point it's harder to do because you're never getting 10% back. But hey 90 is better than 0.

[@thealternativeroundtable6590]

If a company, like Mythic or Petersen Games, manage to somehow deliver all their back-log of games and then launched a new project I was interested in I think I'd be more inclined to back than not because delivering through adversity shows the character of the company and the people behind them. But I'd be more wary of blindly trusting companies that build up a portfolio of in-train projects again.

[@chriskenna7414]

My preference is definitely paying extra to get my game. It really sucks, but in the end at least I have something more to show for my money than (only) remorse and anger.

[@mikejonesnoreally]

i'm wondering if maybe i've found the ONE educated person in "the room." So you don't "back" any games then? :)

[@SilverPanos]

The worst thing are the gamefound exclusive expantions. I keep buying those cause I always feel I'm gonna lose out on them, so I end up paying 2 or 3 times the original ammount but there is always the instant regret ....

[@JohnSugden-bm7ww]

"Hey, you were asking for it by showing them the dollars you'd spend on their big packages. If you let them know you'll give it all up for a bigger product, of course they'll lie to you about their bigger products and make promises they have no intention of delivering. When you put that much data out on display, of course they'll think about nothing else other than how great it'd be to take your bags of funds. It is your fault as much as theirs because you're showing them what you have to offer and what you'll do if they make promises..." No. When companies take unreasonable risks (or outright lie to their KS backers), they're in the wrong. They're creating the environments where we can't afford to trust KS, Backerkit, or Gamefound campaigns. Those platforms are also complicit as they're encouraging the behavior to optimize their profits. Backers do not have access to enough information to make truly informed decsisions because these companies lie and we have no way to hold them accountable as most investors do outside these insane realms. This is an environment that says, "Trust me" and incentivizes "Lie to them". That is the problem - not that we in fact do trust them when they make claims about what they can perform. Mythic had to know they could not deliver Monsterpocalypse for what they were offering. Given where costs were and the experiences they were facing, there was no reasonable fact story that would allow them to deliver in a one year period - and they absolutely had to know it. Yet, the collected huge sums from people and made promises that in retrospect make absolutely no sense given what has been revealed to us. If they want to make the case otherwise, I'd love to hear it - but I have looked at what has been revealed and I can't come close to a story that makes sense. They went to a large group of people and told them to give them money with no reasonable intent to deliver on the promises they were making at the time. That is incredibly different than starting a KS with every good intent and realizing you didn't know what you were doing. Anyone that worked at Mythic and knew what they were doing should be very nervous right now - taking $1.3 million from people through intentional deceit is the type of activity that puts people behind bars for a long time - and given that they destroyed the value of the MOnsterpocalypse IP name owned by Privateer Press, they should expect something will be pursued as a leveraging maneuver. If you want to help fix these problems, take the role of a journalist and hold these game companies accountable for their actions. Identify the ones that lie in their campaigns and backer updates and make sure everyone that hears you hears of their malfeasance. Ask these companies to prove that they are on track to deliver. We should have tools out there that identify which companies deliver late, which charge higher shipping costs, which make false statements in their backer posts, which fail to provide backer posts that address the core questions (do you have funds to deliver and what is the best estimate for delivery). We should ask these companies to give us the tools (information) that allows us to trust reasonably.

[@pecktec]

Havnt heard many people talking about what happens to games when China invades Taiwan. There will be massive issues on every consumer front. And odds go up every day.

[@SeanUCF]

That's not going to happen as long the U.S keeps it's commitment to Taiwan, and that has been a bipartisan issue since the 50's.

[@pecktec]

@@SeanUCF they will take it back eventually. I think right around the time Russian forces get more aggressive they will make their move. It will behove them to keep the money flowing but I think they disruption could be severe. Hopefully I’m wrong.

[@noralockley8816]

If China attacks Taiwan who cares about board games then. You will see massive spike in almost all prices especially shipping and tech. It's not just the US both Japan and Korea have interests in Taiwan not being invaded. It's prime reason why Japan has increased military spending. Trade in the Pacific will basically grind to a stop. So again board games should be the farthest from your mind to worry about

[@TheKingofAverage]

Whether it's that, or something else, the global economy is currently very weak in that it can be broken with just 1-2 bad things happening. So regardless, there's certainly the worry that at some point fairly soon things break down in a bad way. Sadly you don't see much in terms of competition for Chinese manufacturing. Not on any real level. The entire world is dependent on them. All eggs in one basket it seems. What could go wrong? :D

[@pecktec]

@@noralockley8816 You don't think its worth considering as you decide to back a crowd funded project? I never said it was the only one. In fact I pointed that out. " There will be massive issues on every consumer front. "

[@sdunn5643]

A great many of these failures are bouyed by the ignorance of new backers who refuse to read between the lines of what is being presented, swayed too much by shiney things and/or refuse to acknowledge seasoned backers/suckers who are waving off the uninitiated who have a mitt full of money and no sense. All of these were me at first until I started to hone my wants to listen to my needs and realized that no one needs to back these games but the games needs backers. Once you realize that dynamic you will see all that glitter and fomo for what it is. Just a means to seperate you from your money. Developers show no promises to follow through on their obligations. This on a platform that writes in small text that there are no promises made to follow thru and even the rules they stand by are not enforced. There was a time where companies backed their own games and people bought them. Now we are just in the world of making companies and not games. Companies that pollute the hobby I enjoy.

[@sdunn5643]

Holy crap that was long-winded. Sorry all

[@TheKingofAverage]

Yeah the problem is we were almost all like that when new, and there will always be people who are new, especially with this IP trend we're seeing so the market for it stays or even grows.

[@sdunn5643]

@@TheKingofAverage so true. Look at the Marvel license. If the games we have seen were to use a developer IP, you would not see the backer response of 4-9 million dollars. It would be lucky to see several hundred thousand. (Have a look at non marvel IPs of similar games).

[@chillionaire7114]

10:45 - I'm cracking up looking at all the yellow text thumbnails now.

[@TheKingofAverage]

:D I actually put a TON of research into my thumbnails and I came across some really neat color theories. Here's a blurb I actually saved on the subject: "Our eyes are most sensitive to yellow and green, so they're the easiest colors for us to see, even when we're not looking directly at them. And even people with red-green color blindness can still see yellow, that's why it's the most popular color for highlighters." Yellow tends to stand out to us and is one of the fastest recognized colors. Along with plenty of white space and large text heavy thumbnails I feel mind to a fair bit to stand out. I've done tests showing lots of thumbnails with mine in them and asked people which one stood out to them and very often they pick mine from the bunch (not knowing it's mine). As I said, so much of this is data driven :D

[@seansmith2650]

The board game space honestly shows some of the worst gluttony and consumerism than any other form of entertainment

[@dgeci]

Have u tried mobile games ? ....

[@seansmith2650]

@dgeci yeah and I don't engage with their practices because 90s percent of microtransactions are cosmetic

[@calvanoni5443]

Success created the conditions.

[@dgeci]

@@seansmith2650 I meant that the pricing is abusive over there and some games are pay to win also. Marvel snap right now is a good example.

[@seansmith2650]

@@dgeci marvel snap is more pay for convenience. There is no card you can't earn on your own

[@lucky6666]

Kickstarters charging me more for a game then I can get retail is for starters why I'll prefer to wait for a gem that gets reprinted or goes retail. Also running out if space in house. Doesn't seem like I need more unless it's going to replace what I have.

[@Raxxman]

Problem is how hard it is to actually pick out the good companies from the bad ones, Lets take 2 shining examples, Shadowborne Games and Into the Unknown. Both produced massive campaigns with complete product cycles, even with a global pandemic they were able to deliver and both have excellent products undergoing second runs. It's clear their one product one target system worked for the completion of products, but not nessecarily for the health of the company, it's not clear if Shadowborne are going to do anything else after Oathsworn, but Into the Unknown have a sequel/addon coming, neither match CMONs kickstarter funding prowess, and therefore the companies in more danger for survival than CMON which knocked passed a going concern fairly effortlessly. Mythic clearly fancied themselves as a CMON, but fatally got far to sidetracked with the next thing to complete the actual products under their feet. Classic management issues abound. But also you need to worry about those business men and their concept of success. My favourite example of this is the comparision of two of the oldest kickstarter games, Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen. Both promised a new space game, with the companies headed by absolute titans of the industry, the OG Elite developer and the guy who created Wing Commander. Both brought in millions in kickstarter, and both promised a completed game by end of 2014. 9 years on, Elite is probably towards the end of its life cycle, it's a game that's had a good run, is currently still under development and has brought in over 100 million in income, however they're winding down services on the consoles and the game is declining in promenance. Star Citizen, well it's still in Alpha. But it's also made over 5 times the income that Elite Dangerous has, and this is before an actual commerical launch. So which one is more successful? A business case would say Star Citizen, it's already more successful in terms of income, it doesn't even need to launch. This measurement of success is dangerous though, because like people have said, if Mythic see that asking people for more money will work, why would they not continue to dothe same? Thus KoA is right, it's up to consumers to cease consuming to starve off business practices like this from becoming the norm.

[@olchum6013]

Man I hope we get Anastyr. It looks so cool. I drove that data like a maniac 😆 That's what bums me out most about games not fulfilling, not so much the lost money or annoyance about mismanagement, but the loss of the awesome game. I'm backing Teotihuacan, and it looks great and has amazing reviews, but I know that deep down I'm also just trying to replace the dashed excitement I had about Copan before HGG folded. I was so keen for that.

[@TheKingofAverage]

haha same here man. It's what makes it hurt more I feel. The games we're losing weren't bad usually! If it was meh then we'd care far less.

[@bryanyoung9966]

@@TheKingofAverage 100% this. Sadly as bad as their business practices can be Mythic can make some solid games.

[@witchedwiz]

This over and over.. Both hel and anastyr i regret for the end results , but the games seems really really interesting :/

[@obsidiansiriusblackheart]

3:07 thank you for admitting this. I backed all in Monsterpocalypse because I trusted your opinion at the time, but I really felt burned for a while. You being open about this is why I still trust you as a creator and am still willing to support you (unlike some creators that would try distract/hide their mistakes and push the next hype train)

[@TheKingofAverage]

I actually feel really bummed about it. I *never* want to point you guys into a bad situation, even if it's you following me as I go there myself. Hindsight is of course 20/20 but after I enjoyed Solomon Kane so much and they delivered it during COVID without asking for money I figured their PM's were going strong and they'd be okay :( Sadly not. I'll try and be more cautious in the future as well. BTW Monsterpocalypse is especially true. I recall thinking it was a deal almost "too good to be true" and well I guess it was :( Really fun game though! :/

[@mikejonesnoreally]

So you got burned and then you return to the FIRE? Yep. Board gaming has seen a *massive* influx of morons! xD

[@williamfaughnan6298]

I'm a fan of larger games, but in my opinion one major downside to the crowd funding model has been market bloat with games that are larger than necessary and way too expensive. Crowdfunding was initially a way for individuals and small producers to get their product to market with limited risk because they had a gauge to assess the interest and other market factors. Now every publisher just uses it as a crutch for every game they produce and they just keep making them more experience along the way somehow. I love board/tabletop games, but frankly this new sort of culture that has manifested has honestly started to turn me off. As a family man I'd love to get my family more involved with gaming but most modern games are so complex and bloated that it's hard to justify the crazy expense for games that will likely never make it to the table. I understand the positives that crowd funding has had on the gaming industry, but for me personally the scale has tipped the other way and there's more negative in it, especially for the average consumer to have any hope of staying invested in the fun of gaming. There's part of my two cents on the matter, cuz obviously everybody values what I have to say.

[@ScytheNoire]

Every company is data driven.

[@stevekozlowski5963]

Unfortunately I backed Village Attacks Grim Dynasty, so I'm out that money. I've known it was coming, but it still hurts to see it. I'll probably never get Anastyr either, or the expansion for Street Masters. Sucks. It also sucks for us small developers because it shakes backer confidence, but it's understandable. We just have to work harder to earn trust in our name.

[@mikejonesnoreally]

Or just work harder to convince at least the under educated that paying money for nothing is STILL a good idea! If that fails bro, there's always using people's FEAR of not having something against them, but hey, i don't need to tell YOU that! xD

[@Tchousssman54]

I prefed Mythic Games way. Because I didnt backed any of their games (came to late in the hobby) and I can still probably buy them on their website or on the second hand market

[@HarleyFirestorm]

I am starting to get fed up of the companies that produce a good game core box, then proceed to chuck out a load of expansions near the end, its like the core box is the hook and the expansions are going to wade you into destroying your credit card. I would rather they get a core box out first then produce the expansion either through retail or a separate kickstarter later on. When they chuck up a ton of exclusive goals and expansions, I just KNOW that this is going to take a long time to make and will in no way be able to fulfill their estimated date of delivery and by the way things are going, may not deliver it at all. Its like they set out to sabotage their own project with far reaching expectations. As for Grimlord games, it was no surprise what so ever to me, the writing was on the walls with the Everrain, I think they knew this a lot longer than most people did.

[@eikejmeyer]

Seeing the thumbnail I was already worried this would be another crowdfunding doomsday video. Thank you for the pleasantly nuanced and constructive discussion! Also, overall crowdfunding is still a very safe space with failure rates around 2% of boardgame pledges.

[@mikejonesnoreally]

Bullshit. Prove it. You don't see THIS many "Oh gosh why are i an idiot who lost all dey monies!" vids and hear THIS many stories from real people without that failure rate being a LOT higher than 2% but then LIES are how you get people's money right? xD (Not mine, i had an education thanks.)

[@AnOldGypsyHaunt]

17:18 this is a really important topic, and probably deserves its own video. The psychology of tribalism is fascinating, and this sense of "being part of the team" is so easily weaponized. With the result typically being a group of normally discerning, critically thinking individuals now making choices to their own detriment. And in many ways, websites like kickstarter are built on (or at least promote) a tribal mentality, since they're predicated on backers feeling like they're "getting in at the ground floor". Thanks for bringing this up, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this point in future content.

[@TheKingofAverage]

very well put Larson! As you pointed out, crowdfunding inhrently promotes this. We're all in this together right? Watch the livestream of the CEO himself talk to you like a friend! You are with US! It's both an awesome thing, and a scary thing and the blurred lines make it a slippery slope I feel.

[@mikejonesnoreally]

TRANSLATION: i got taken and wasn't thinking "critically" (or at all, let's be honest) but it's not my fault! i was supporting the team guys! GET OUT OF HERE WITH THAT B.S.!! xD

[@quvadisjean]

“My mouth wasn’t in the right spot” phrasing

[@lucky6666]

ladies

[@TheKingofAverage]

Happens to the best of us man. No shame in admitting it :P

[@reasonlost]

Great video. Love the insight and analysis you put into these videos.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Glad to hear it :)

[@jarekewertowski9108]

The situation will remain the same until creators grasp that Kickstarter's ultimate measure of success can only be claimed if they profit from it. Turnovers are not profit.

[@TheKingofAverage]

well put! I can't count how many times young companies just say that the first few games never make a profit and just go about it like it's a given. They focus so much on making that revenue climb they never stop to realize they are sacrificing profit to do so. I'll email you later today if I can so we can set up a time to chat sometime. You're far more an expert on this subject than I am.

[@dilatedbeholder3865]

Would be great if you did a video on your current collection. So many games back there that I'm super curious about!

[@stevekozlowski5963]

I originally started watching KoA's channel specifically because his shelves were either lined with games I already owned, or games I wanted to own. Finding a reviewer who shares your taste in games is always cool

[@Ironhawx]

Thanks! This is the video everybody needs to see before jumping in to this hobby

[@LeeroyPorkins]

I'll be playing more Zombicide now

[@Shawne01]

Greetings KoA, as usual, thanks for your work it is appreciated, just dropped by to let you know another company going under Farside Games. The Epic Seven Arise is dead and well seems like Kickstarter continues sadly to implode. Bad decisions on inexperienced companies that sadly do not know the hard work it takes to create and ship a product will continue to sour the experience of the board game community with crowdfunding. These failures slowly drain the goodwill of the community 4,393 backers are left hanging with nothing to show for it and no word from the company in months. As always best of luck and best wishes.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Oh bummer they didn't make it? Too bad, I think over time they could have grown to be pretty good

[@SexyGandalf89]

Great video and topic! Well researched aswell. Regarding Mythic vs Grimlord: Mythic atleast gives a choice, even if its a bad one. With Grimlord games your money is just gone. That said, it still can happen with extra money thrown at Mythic...

[@TheKingofAverage]

True. A crappy situation regardless I feel. The other alternative I've not seen mentioned is to simply do away with portions of the game you can no longer afford. Some companies have done this from time to time (removed SG's, etc.) - heck Mythic did it a bit with Darkest Dungeon, doing away with some storage and using tuck boxes and such.

[@samharkin9981]

KOA, a lot of what's happening in the industry is to do with the shrinking economy and inflation. If things were different, there would be room for the inefficient and slightly incompetent companies out there. Sadly, the tighter money gets, the more unforgiving the industry becomes. None of us, nor you are to blame for that. That's on government policy raising the cost of living, energy and ultimately, trading.

[@jaimerivera2382]

I had to basically harshly limit my crowdfunding altogether - I limit myself to small projects and books nowadays. Or certain publishers that have a track record. I don't have the space or the time anymore to keep getting these huge, multi-box behemoths. I mean, it's my own fault, due to FOMO - but still.

[@bgm-1961]

And he talks about how content creators use yellow and red in their titles so to leverage the algorithm.... well, at least you're true to what you point out! Seriously, another very solid and valuable video!

[@thealternativeroundtable6590]

I'm prepared to pay extra if it means we'll get our games delivered, rather than watch companies disappear / go under where the company has a track record of delivering good games (I like the 2 games I've played by Grimlord; they're flawed but interesting). I remember commenting when we first started to get companies asking for extra money to deliver that I expected a lot of companies with projects launched before or at the start of Covid and what followed to follow suit or starting to fold. I suspect the difference here is that Grimlord had no chance of limping on without re-funding the project and understood they'd have no chance of raising the amount they'd need - whereas Mythic Games may be able to salvage their projects given the higher number of backers so they'll need a lower proportion of those backers to pay up. I am, I should add, now past the tipping point where I am really put off from backing projects because the risk/reward for most projects has turned sour, whether that be the risk of non-delivery, the lack of reward/price incentive against waiting for retail, or the lack of quality testing in the delivered project. Which is not a bad thing either. I will, of course, be backing Aeon's Odyssey: Trespass despite having said all that, because life is full of contradictions .

[@clay.moore.1984]

You're right that it is totally unnecessary and even counter-productive to make a board game and in the first launch add 5-6 expansion boxes, each of them with 30-40 miniatures and additional scenarios. Even if I put aside the storage issue, why not develop a game and polish it over time? One core game and let's say one more expansion with additional minis and a short campaign should be enough on the first launch. But most of them today is a quick money grab, otherwise they would do like Starling games with Everdell. One step at a time and having a faith in the game.

[@TheKingofAverage]

yes exactly! Lower risk to the company and backers, more opportunities for people to come into it late and much quicker turnarounds.

[@gillevistern4078]

@@TheKingofAverage This model is unsustainable and counter-productive in the long run. Maybe CMON can do it, but as it seems, not all the others. "These" games (probably underdeveloped at the phase of the campaign + lots of minis + bunch of other minis as SGs + half as dozen expansions with more minis) can be mediocre or even good games, but they are mainly "eye candies", serve as a pitch to increase sales, and function as a quick money grab. Sustainable businesses that plan to be in the business in the long run, don't work like that.

[@rodneyaudley2980]

Interesting video, i think while a lesser problem, i think too many back when they financially shouldn't and then have to get refunds, shout in the comments etc. distracting creators from working in the game. I wonder how much time macro at mythic looses to answering the same question to the same backer. Also i don't think creators help themselves by not reducing project scope, i have yet to see a project ditch say some stretch goals in order to stay on time or keep costs down - creators seem 'selfish ' in that they want the backer to bail them out by either paying more or waiting longer, so they can complete there product [to sell to retail].

[@Megaloth13]

The issue with grimlord games was the lack of communication. If they had been honest and told us about the finance issues then people would have been supportive. The last update we got was "were ready to print but can't ship due to the 100x cost for shipping due to covid". Claiming they were ready and then disappeared is just an insult to everyone that trusted them. I backed the first village attacks and enjoyed it, however when companies don't respond there's a feel that they take the money and show no change for years before asking for more.

[@gondogeek]

I no longer order boardgame on crowdfunders. I do buy STL files wich are given a timely manner.

[@garyduddell3224]

Lazy Squire games look like the next one to go and unfulfill games I would be interested in your view on them, Stormsunder and Wild Ascent are so far behind and they have almost given up posting updates apart from 1 day before fulfilment it supposed to start they say production was never done and it will be another year. I think I have to pull out of both these games the risk with them is just too much now.

[@marcnno6323]

Lazy Squire Games is in my view a postponed disaster. Interesting that no-one is rising red flags.

[@CheddahSlammer]

I don't know were your getting this info. Their latest update for Wild Asset said their basically almost done, minus some mini fixes. The last couple of updates with Stormsunder said its been delayed because of the massive story, you have so many different paths in the story and you have to balance the game out based on which path is going. All of this was in an update on to why it might be delayed to Q3 to Q4 for wave 1 of Stormsunder. Difference between Mythic and them, is when others required more funds, Mythic said nothing in any updates. Lazy squire has been saying in several updates that they are not in a bad spot compared to others in the space, and they won't require additional funds for ether of their products. Also they never said fulfillment was supposed to start in any of the updates. In fact its the opposite, they said they don't have a direct date for fulfillment until the production is complete. The only thing I agree with is that their updates are too spread apart and they should have more. Honestly think their the last to fail like Mythic. With Mythic you can see the trail of problems, DD box not being able to hold sleeves, other cuts from projects, for them trying to get every penny to pay what they owed. Besides the delays Lazy Squire has been doing fine.

[@garyduddell3224]

@@CheddahSlammer This is not based on any info and I don't posted lightly because these things can have adverse effects on company's and I don't throw around phrases like 'crooks', 'incompetence', 'scam' etc. as running a business is hard. For Wild Assent they posted in Dec 22 'We are still on schedule for May ' and then not a single update until 29th April when they said this 'Our last estimate had production finishing and fulfilment beginning in May. With but a weekend to go, we are definitely not going to achieve that'. They are still developing the game and have now asked backers to edit the rulebook for them, they said delivery is now December and after that they hope to hire a rulebook editor. What !!!!!. Stormsunder is already 14 months behind schedule and Wave 1 has not been finished yet let alone Wave 2 development, we get a few more updates but all it is is posts of endless mini's. They are still play testing and are going to sit on production for another 6 months while they do translations. Nothing this year for Stormsunder so likely 2-3 years late for wave 1 and who knows regarding Wave 2, another 1-2 years on top of that ????? I really like the look of both of these but with either no updates at all or just mini after mini after mini what am I supposed to think.

[@svenwasberg7704]

I dont know if I agree with you. Of course a smaller project is less complicated and should be easier to produce. On the other hand the base pledge / core game usually is the best deal in a campaign. Expansions tend to offer less product for more money. If a company is able to make a profit with a core game, it should bea easily able to make money with expansions, dice, playmats...

[@TheKingofAverage]

I think it's just a matter of being smart with it. Dice and playmats are both high profit, and add no real dev time for instance.

[@yotodine]

@The King of Average - The problem is using a platform that doesn't care about BGs. A publisher that creates a platform to assure that games are made. Make games, not companies.

[@lit_wick]

Yes. Havnt even watched the whole video but yes. Rio Grande has it right with the dominion model. Release a game, if it sells well, release more content every now and then. I look at my collection of $200+ KS games next to my $200+ dominion that has been loved for years and it's obvious which purchase was best.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Well put! I give that exact sort of example in video too when saying how they'd still be in business if they only released a new Grim Dynasty box in the campaign instead of everything. You can iterate more. You can scope better. You can actually deliver. Some companies can handle the workload, but obviously they couldn't.

[@RealGyouza]

I am torn on which I prefer. I guess really I prefer the offer. But on the caveat that they actually communicate with backers and own up to the mistakes and acknowledge ways they can do better going forward. Saying "We need more money, give now" Then disappearing while waiting for the money feels bad and feels like you are just going to do the same thing with the first round of contributions. If you want us to invest you should treat us as investors and not as preorder customers.

[@Ironhawx]

I prefer the Mythic Game route whenever possible. I don’t know the circumstances behind Grimlord but when they delivered Neeverain it felt a glimmer of hope. Remember folks! We are no longer a hobby, we are the minions of hyper consumerism that feed the machine and when things like this happen, we lose.

[@aerouge4492]

I think Grimlord is the better way to handle bancruptcy. Squeezing more money out of people for another chance (that can fail for reasons out of MG's control!) just feels wrong.

[@fredrikebbersten]

Playing board games, Im looking for something new. I dont really feel the need to play something that I have already seen and done. There are certainly studios that scratch that itch. Into the Unknown is most likely the first that comes to my mind. There are of course others. There are fewer of these games now but the ones that there are are usually really good. I dont believe that you will get very far otherwise since the customer base is much more discerning these days. The thing I really dont like is the "preorder" Kickstarter. Cant stand it. I did not care for Gamefound in the beginning, now I find it to be the superior platform. Stretch pay is such a plus in my opinion and would not be present without competition. The fact that everything is incorporated in the same platform is also a huge plus. How long til KS follow suit? The notion that they are not doing it for us feels sort of redundant. Of course they arent. What profit driven company does? What Mythic games does cant be easy. I appreciate, and prefer, the attempt. Hope to get a copy of Hel someday.

[@mbp21000]

This is the reason why if i back anything i do just basic pledge. Most of the time there is enough content from the basic game. And if you need more. you can back add more during the second kickstarter.

[@Zorogundam19]

I do mostly the same but with one expansion to get some extra gameplay.

[@michaelb8111]

I have started opting for the $1 pledge to give myself time to make a rational decision. I am also realizing that second printings tend to be a much better, more streamline product.

[@simonherrmann7307]

This is why I have decided not to back Aeon Trespass Odyssey or Kingdoms Forlorn. They are just way too big and way too expensive.

[@frederickcallen]

Yes it is expensive but completely worth the experience. And they deliver without asking for anything more and Into The Unknown have fantastic communication with their customers. Very pleased with their campaigns.

[@simonherrmann7307]

@@frederickcallen That might be true, I just feel a huge FOMO in their campaigns as well as going just way too big with their games way too quickly. As if Isaac Childres released both Gloomhaven, JoTL and Frosthaven at the same time. In both their campaigns, they create not only the base game and maybe one expansion, gameplay all-in sits around 400 to 500 euros. All that for a game that has yet another year to be in development. The combination just isn't for me. The huge amount of expansions is another thing. I feel like I am missing some experience if I don't get them and this feeling gets boosted by the fact that these expansions are developed, released and sold at the almost same time as the base game.

[@SamuraiSloth88]

I wish companies would be up front about the game they're making, is it a concept that you have to completely/mostly make and still workout the majority of the rules or is it pretty much all done and you need backers to make it happen. I just dont want to have to pay for just an idea that needs to be materialised and worked out from scratch after being backed wich would take year(s) and then wait and lose the excitement.

[@Rajja29]

Just remember that stretch pay is only good during the campaign, once the campaign ends there is no more stretch pay. Any Addon you add in the pledge manager and the shipping all has to be paid normally.

[@TheKingofAverage]

ah yes good point!

[@theshogunstein6475]

people keep backing these big games, people keep buying way more games then they can play, people still defend clearly SUS KS campaigns, questionable borderline payola type videos where influencer and game company have conflicts of interest are still popular....so why would anything change.

[@pcuimac]

I blame The Dice Tower for backing Grimlord Games .. and myself.

[@bluedevil3d104]

Although I agree that stretch pay can be a dangerous vehicle that can suck people into debt, to say that Gamefound is doing nothing to protect backers is a tad disingenuous as they also are offering Stable Pledge. Yes, yes, I understand that that that warm safety blanket is a goal to comfort new backers into the fold, but that is a means to staunch the bleeding of money.

[@TheKingofAverage]

True, pros and cons to it for sure. :)

[@HerVoiceRemains]

Great video Michael. I guess I’ve been fortunate so far. Still awaiting Dawn of Madness. I’m a lightweight who has only backed like 15 games and it was all fine. But, I’m not doing anymore. If the game kicks ass, they will do a 2nd printing. Meaning it’s solid. I exclude Jamie and Shadowbourne from this. He and his company are of the highest integrity and will always back thier stuff.

[@TheKingofAverage]

I hope DoM ends up great!

[@mikejonesnoreally]

If your company is of "the highest integrity" you don't involve yourself with graft like kickstarter. xD

[@angelicdespot2735]

I definitely prefer companies to ask for more money than fold. I think we got so used to investments in board games paying off that we forgot that we were investing, not pre-ordering. I'm also a bit more sympathetic to the companies who've messed up. Pre-pandemic Mythic may have been running a foolish business model, but it wasn't actually harming them OR consumers. Big, often well liked games were getting delivered, even if a bit (or very) late. It's easy now to forget that ten years ago we didn't have any big games because it was never economical for anyone to produce them. And some of the big games delivered by crowd funding have been great. So I hope Mythic are able to finish delivering, even if that means asking for more money. I'm not caught up at the moment buy I do expect to be asked to pay more for Darkest Dungeon and Hel in due course.

[@mikejonesnoreally]

So Decent, Arkham Horror, Runebound, and Marvel Heroes didn't exist? Nor Legendary, Mage Knight, or Galaxy Defenders? o.o We had big games, we just didn't have big *graft.* xD

[@angelicdespot2735]

@@mikejonesnoreally maybe I exagerated a little, but I think the point stands: Kickstarter / crowdfunding enabled a huge number of games that were much bigger than anything we had before.

[@colemiller8180]

I won't say anything 100 % because who knows if my favorite IP drops into a board game tomorrow, but as of right now I'm never backing another game until state farm starts offering Kickstarter insurance.

[@TheKingofAverage]

LOL :D

[@Spidiculous]

Yeah company simps are really a net negative on any game. You can't even have one constructive criticism about a game without someone chiming in "welll ackchually I LIKE that the miniatures are really poor quality, i think it adds to the medieval theme in that they're using old technology to craft them bla bla bla"

[@TheKingofAverage]

gahahaha

[@MaduroMan]

I’ve long since left the hobby and sold my collection except for some of my fav solo games. I’m on to other things.

[@TheKingofAverage]

What games did you keep?

[@michaelb8111]

What we are seeing is the evolution of basically everything since the beginning of time. Small hungry entrepreneurs create something new, special, and better than their predecessors (often out of necessity and for survival). A glimmer of hope, that proves to be faster, more efficient, and most importantly cheaper, then as soon as the filthy rich corporations smell the money like blood in the water, these sharks move in and they then twist and torment that original concept in order to extract every drop of blood that new industry can bare until that original idea is unrecognizable, lifeless, and dead. The lifespan last until the consumers wise up and opt out, or until something new comes along.

[@TheKingofAverage]

yep exactly. It grows because it's great but eventually it grows big enough to have the sharks take note and then they come in, splurge until they kill the market, and then move on. A favorite example of mine is Guitar Hero/Rockband. An entire genre of game was born and was a massive success. So of course the companies couldn't keep calm and spammed it into oblivion with 5 games out in a single year. Then none as they successfully killed their own money making machine. Star Wars after Disney is another good example. They just can't help themselves and spam things into the ground.

[@michaelb8111]

@@TheKingofAverage Great examples, Michael!

[@flipz101]

I don’t think you can say Mythic isn’t doing what Grinlord games are doing… the story of Mythic isn’t over yet, they could well still do that (with more of your money..)

[@TheKingofAverage]

Good point. At least for now though, they are two separate tactics for the same bad business - though I think it'd be impossible for GG to do what MG did so it makes sense.

[@Bibliophilo]

I wish Mythic Games would just p… off and shut down. A clear end of this mess would be my wish.

[@jamessullivan5168]

With Grimlord Games they only wanted a bit of shipping for us to get Everrain. Fortunately, that was the last game I had backed. With Mythic, they want us to cough up the money all over again. So uncool.

[@TheKingofAverage]

yeah pretty much doubles the price or close to it.

[@holysmoke8439]

I'm not investing n painting a core box unless there r expansions that's why I have 8 games but some of them like Conan have 6 boxes...I'm investing in a world not a one shot game that the company ignores after the corebox

[@Bibliophilo]

I hope games get smaller. No more huge campaign games. Just make a good game and if it is great come up with expansions later. And to be honest: most of my expansions I have not played. Too many games, not enough time.

[@mcstabba]

12:44 What!? But you are THE king of average!

[@TheKingofAverage]

HAH!

[@rawkyle9385]

I disagree that it’s the consumer’s fault for poor and sometimes criminal mis-management of a company. I felt like you were trying to make an argument that if a company offers to sell items that end up pushing a title over the edge that they can’t fulfill, it’s the consumers fault, which doesn’t make sense. Ultimately it is the company’s responsibility to make sound business choices and manage their company soundly, not the consumer.

[@davidjacovelli5986]

No excuse for either of them. They're both incompetently run and the individuals involved should be barred from running companies. Also, at best it's a novel argument to suggest that consumer demand is what's causing the problem for these companies. Also, a stupid argument.

[@EricWoning]

Most important video on crowdfunding out there right now IMO

[@TheKingofAverage]

I knew you'd like this one :D

[@Ironhawx]

Amen

[@Yooric90]

First time I hear someone talking about stretch pay in a negative connotation, stretch pay is not a good thing for consumers...... Part time payments are considered bad in sweden but I don't hear this from other countries.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Well happy to be the first then :) It's not all bad and it has some pros. But in general I feel it just makes spending more easier.