83. Trinitarian Cultic Authority

What do cults and Trinitarianism have in common? A hermeneutical analysis, plus audio comic, and bi-personarianism. (Dale Tuggy is NOT a Unitarian Universalist, I didn't make that clear, sorry.)
RESOURCES
• Restorationist Manifesto, Restitutio (restitutio.org...)
• James White and Dale Tuggy debate: “Is Jesus YHWH?” ( • Dale Tuggy and James W... )
• 13. An Absolute Distrust of Unitarians - Kevin George (Part 1) (podcast.unitari...)
• 14. An Astounding Disappointment in Experts - Kevin George (Part 2) (podcast.unitari...)
• Jehovah’s Witnesses (www.jw.org)
• The Way International (www.theway.org)
• Inglesia Ni Christo (iglesianicrist...)
• 80. Deconstrucing to Agnostic - Josiah Wright (Part 1) (sites.libsyn.c...)
• 81. Reconstructing to Relationship - Josiah Wright (Part 2) (podcast.unitari...)
• do Theology podcast (www.dotheology...)
• 67. Why Is the Trinity Mainstream? (podcast.unitari...)
• Monte Python - Dead Parrot ( • Monty Python - Dead Pa... )
• The Forgotten Trinity (a.co/d/1AZLHYC) - James White
• Jude 1:3 - the faith once for all delivered to the saints
• Mark 9:24 - the father who asks for help with his unbelief
• Christ Before Creeds: Rediscovering the Jesus of History (a.co/d/8skH8Hp) audio book
• Workshops submissions (www.unitarianc...)
• 82. Experiencing the Tuggy/White Debate, Street Interviews, and Post-debate Roundtable (podcast.unitari...)
• Articulate Aplogetics ( / @articulateapologetics ) - KZbin Channel
THE CHALLENGE, SIX FACTS
1. No NT author ever collected the Trinitarian propositions together as a basis for any teaching.
2. No Bible author teaches us about a being that has three persons.
3. The contradictions that are self-evident from the Trinity are unnoticed and not addressed by any NT author.
4. No Biblical author teaches a dual nature theory or uses it to explain these contradictions
5. No New Testament author ever resorted to “mystery” to defend their complex and difficult explanation of God and his Christ.
6. No New Testament author ever made belief in the Trinity a requirement for being a follower of Christ.
EPISODE INDEX
• 00:00:38 - Not What a Trinitarian Expects?
• 00:04:35 - Cults
• 00:07:09 - The Comic Of Christian Branches
• 00:09:48 - A Reflection On Human Traits
• 00:11:45 - Fist Pumping
• 00:14:16 - Truth Is Formidable
• 00:17:20 - Our Prepensity To Certainty
• 00:18:14 - He Had To Be God
• 00:23:09 - Animal Brain
• 00:25:52 - But Cults Have Bibles, Right?
• 00:26:59 - The Magic Of The Cult
• 00:28:45 - New Heresy: Bi-personalism
• 00:34:44 - This Is The Way
• 00:35:30 - Trinitarian Hermeneutical Legacy
• 00:39:19 - The Challenge
• 00:40:57 - The Six Facts
• 00:46:05 - Peace Vs. Doubts
• 00:47:17 - Events
• 00:48:40 - Workshops
• 00:49:14 - Articulate Apologetics
• 00:50:31 - Disclaimer / Fine Print
FEEDBACK
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• Or call: 615-581-1158
LISTENING TIPS
Pauses and pacing are hand crafted, artisan efforts. If your podcast app lets you remove silences, please don't. You will enjoy this better with the silences left in.
ENGAGE
The UCA Podcast email list (unitarianchris...) ! Large and enjoyable episode art, additional thoughts from the host, the Audio Geek Corner, and notifications when there are delays.
The UCA events listing (www.unitarianc...) . Keep up on what's coming up.
Podcast twitter @UCApodcast (t...

[@stommper1234]

Trinitarianism is defeated by the simple fact that Jesus has a God. No more needed to be said. Argument won. Shuts them up real quick. Unless they resort to insults.

[@aaroningram9988]

Boy, if I had a nickel for every time I heard some of these arguments in real life...

[@LoveAndLiberty02]

"....watching our Messiah's mission being disgraced in the hands of self obsessed leaders..." Yes. Amen.

[@manny4fe1]

Shared it to all of my trinitarian Facebook groups

[@ken440]

good on ye mate!

[@SimplyAwesomeOriginal]

Brother, this is one of your best works. It's deeply morally good, accurate to the truth of the gospel, and totally applicable to our time I've listened to it more than once and I'm still smiling, and indeed learning. Thank you very much and stay encouraged.

[@UCAPodcastHost]

Thank you so much. I am indeed encouraged by your thoughts.

[@jamesdabrowski6436]

Nice podcast, ty😊

[@UCAPodcastHost]

You're welcome! Appreciate it.

[@DanJan09]

Thank you for this thoughtful monologue. Especially the example with the bipersonal nature of man is superb.

[@UCAPodcastHost]

Thanks!

[@larrythrasher9713]

Tuggy is a Unitarian, but not a Unitarian Universalist

[@UnitarianChristianAlliance]

Yep, Mark was describing the audiences expectations/misunderstandings about Tuggy, they thought he was a UU.

[@UCAPodcastHost]

Yeah. If people keep interpreting my words this way.... I'm going to have to try to fix it.... Bummer. The best laid plans.

[@ken440]

​@@UCAPodcastHostI heard that part and realized it needed a disclaimer reinforcement, but that mkes it didactic and clumsy. What you said was correct, but it could be misconstrued if the listener was just skimming and not engaged.

[@CalebTheHumbled]

​@UCAPodcastHost I'm your first subscriber, Mark! (To this profile) been working my way through all the pods. Yah bless.

[@UCAPodcastHost]

@@CalebTheHumbled Thanks! Welcome.

[@BreakingBreadwithBurke]

This is lol fantastic.

[@philos_theos]

Around the 3:20 mark, you called Tuggy a unitarian universalist. I thought there was a difference between "Biblical Unitarian" and "UU"?

[@socketman]

I think he meant that those folks thought Dale was a Unitarian Universalist and thus were surprised by some of the things he said. They had their assumptions challenged and had no real idea about what a Biblical Unitarian was. Listening to a lot of the post-debate discussions from the folks that were there adds this context.

[@UCAPodcastHost]

Yeah! I was listening back and realized that the way I said it _could_ be taken that way. Little late to fix it, unfortunately. Gotta love how language works. I try very hard to not do things like this.... I did a worse one, once, I actually called him a trinitarian during a back and forth interview segment and had to go back and cut up my audio bits and fix it in place (swapped out the audio). That was embarrassing. I don't know if a "fix" would apply here on the youtube version of the podcast or not. I know I can change the one that podcast players use.... But, no. He's not a UU. :)

[@larrythrasher9713]

Bingo. Tuggy is NOT a Universalist. Just a Unitarian!

[@philos_theos]

@@UCAPodcastHost Thanks for clarifying that.

[@RalphHumphries-th1ym]

I'm a biblical Unitarian and trinitarians try to say things that are false and people are unconcerned about truth and the truth becomes a lie and the lie is truth and trinitarians like other religions kick others out who don't believe like them very dangerous and biblical Unitarian are kind and don't try to control others with strange doctrine

[@UCAPodcastHost]

Thanks! To be fair, I've met some Biblical Unitarians who aren't very kind, but it's a minority, for sure. Knowing that Jesus is truly a model for us, and that he patiently endured the unwarranted curses and insults, we know we can, too. I love that aspect of recognizing Jesus was truly an obedient human, not an omniscient and omnipotent God dressed in flesh. Great thoughts! -Mark

[@hismajesty6272]

God relates within Himself. The Son submits to the Father in accordance to His humanity. Jesus is eternal (John 8:58). Jesus is God (John 10:30), and so is the Father. This means God must be multi-personal for Jesus to have a relationship with the Father, and also be God. In addition, Jesus commands us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt 28:19), and the Fr, Son, and HS are also referred to in 1 John 5:7. God has one Nature, one Divinity, one Will, and is three Persons.

[@UCAPodcastHost]

"The Son submits to the Father *in accordance to His humanity*." This is one of the things I discussed. Do you see this as a Biblical fact, or do you see it as a derived concept that you treat as fact? The difference between those two types of information was a specific point in the episode.

[@bacorbaley]

Some good points in here, and i know i will be drawing the ire of some, but, even after referencing James 3:10-11, You still had to throw in vulgar language... but then censor it? Anyway, that's where i stopped watching...

[@UnitarianChristianAlliance]

In defense of Mark, this is humor my friend, humor. 😊 “Make stuff up” doesn’t have the same meaning/impact in English as “Make s**t up”. You would really like the rest of the podcast, wouldn’t let one moment of a 50 minute talk stop you, even if you think it is in bad taste and would do it differently.

[@UCAPodcastHost]

@bacorbaley, I appreciate it! It's a mental game whether I go with my gut on something or not. My mother listens to it, too. Eeeks. But it is good to know how you felt about it. And you have an entirely valid point from James 3. I remember growing up in my conservative home (son of a pastor) and the list of words that we did not say was quite robust. Today I chuckle to myself about it (somehow the list is different and shorter now...). I've come to the conclusion that "cursing" as describe here is likely to be related to the actual content of the language, not the particular synonym for "excrement." Like, does God think "poop" is perfectly great, "dung" a fine choice, but not s#!%? If this is what God intended by James 3, then "cursing" is defined by the culture we live in and not by Scripture. Scripturally, I think the cursing in view here is what Jesus described, "if you say to your brother you fool" Matt. 5:21. It's when the words function as curses, cutting down your brother, ruining them or their reputations, being hateful... I think it's that, not the current culturally-defined preferences for "poop" synonyms. It does strike me as interesting that many Christians will call me fool and other delightful things because I don't agree with their theory. But they may not use the word s#&! because it is cursing. You got me thinking, and I appreciate that. I appreciate the honest feedback and the candor. God bless.

[@John_Six]

So Jesus had a schizophrenic episode in John 17 when He prayed to Himself? Oh wait, I remember praying to myself last night. I prayed to myself to pray for my parents. I'm going to send myself to get some food now. Peace of myself to you.

[@shibakim]

The thing you don't understand is that when you, you send yourself to buy some foods then that means you yourself must go and you yourself is no more there from the place where you went from. So according to you God send himself down to earth then that means now the heaven is empty. So stop nonsense and lay down your own corrupted reasonings and be humble and ask God to reveal the truth. "This is eternal life to know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." You must know 2 persons in order to obtain eternal life

[@John_Six]

@@shibakim What is going on here? Matthew 3: 16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

[@ProselyteofYah]

👌💯

[@charliek2557]

Sola Scriptura is false.

[@thodean]

The Orthodox Church is the Church that Christ established. Have you even read the Gospel of Matthew once? How can you say Jesus is not God when He Himself says that THE FATHER does not judge, but the Son does all the judging. Who is the final Judge, is it not God? You don't have God as your father, but you have the father of lies. Was the Church lost since the days of the Holy Apostles (reread the Holy Scriptures, it can never be lost for the Gates of Hades will not prevail against it)? Anathema to those that say that the right Judge is not God, anathema (I don't have authority to put it, it was put way before me. It is also Biblical, the Apostles anathematized since the beginning) Repent for your sins. Sola Scriptura can never be true, for the Scriptures and the canon of them come from the Church (Body of Christ, if you didn't know, cause you don't seem to know the Scriptures all that well.) You are in error for you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God. Repent, and all love to you

[@mgd2000rb]

This is it! Amem

[@UCAPodcastHost]

@thodean, thanks for the feedback! Here's specifically what I believe about judgement, and you can tell me what you think. I believe that God's intention for humanity was, from the start, to govern the affairs of the earth, to judge the earth. Psalm 8 is an example of this, and so is His command to man in Genesis, to have dominion. Man is, by God's design, to (ideally) be the ruler of earth, crowned with glory. We did not do that well, closest maybe was David and Solomon, but that's about it. So, the ultimate anointed one, the obedient and faithful one, by forgoing the kind of selfish madness that sunk every king before him, achieved what we could not. His righteousness and obedience reversed the damage done by Adam (Rom. 5), and as the ideal man, he therefore is awarded the initial purpose of man, to be the authority and judge of the world. The judgement is God's ultimately, but he intended man to judge and rule. Man could only do that correctly if he was in alignment with the Father, and while we couldn't do that right, Jesus certainly could. Thus, God acts through humans. God's wisdom and power is invested in the Messiah, and he set him at his right hand to fulfil that role. This is what I understand Paul to be preaching in Acts 17: "For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed." I believe it precisely as Paul states it. God is the judge, but he achieves it through the one He appointed, the one who merits that position because of his faithfulness. Interested in your thoughts, Thanks!

[@b.c.fields1310]

Let's make a golden calf and throw a party calling it the god that led us out of Egypt...hmmmm, wait a moment...that didn't turn out very good.

[@b.c.fields1310]

On cult, Walter Martin fails his own test on whether it's a cult.

[@UnitarianChristianAlliance]

😆

[@vincentcieluch7863]

The Trinity is Idolatry.... "Who worship and serve the " creation" rather than the Creator" JESUS the Christ is part of the creation, he is not the Creator of the heavens and earth recorded in Genesis 1:1.... He had a beginning " the BIRTH (genesis) of Jesus Christ Jesus was on this wise" Keep on spreading this truth of the true identity of our Christ!...

[@kardiognostesministries8150]

Jesus is properly worshiped (Revelation 5:9).

[@henryodera5726]

​​@@kardiognostesministries8150Your reply is not addressing any of his points. Instead, you have raised your own point. But anyway... Yes, Jesus was worshipped in Revelation 5. But the word "properly" is your own. Only you know the full meaning of the phrase "properly worshipped". I can only try to guess. Do you mean that the worship was done well? Because I wouldn't disagree with that. I didn't see any signs of improper or insulting actions or speech against Jesus or against the one who sat on the throne in their actions and words. Do you mean that Jesus was the proper recipient of that worship? Again, given what was said during the worship by the worshippers, I wouldn't disagree with that. Because if you pay attention to what is being said, the worshippers themselves explain why they are worshipping Jesus. And I find everything that they said to be both accurate and truthful. If you have other reasons other than the ones that the worshippers gave for worshipping Jesus, those reasons are your own, not theirs. Because the one who was worshipped just a few verses earlier in Revelation 4:9-11 for creating all things and causing all things to exist by His will (things which God did), was not Jesus, but the one who sat at the throne.

[@henryodera5726]

​​@@kardiognostesministries8150I have one question. Whom do you think the worshippers in Revelation 5:9-10 are referring to when they say "God" or "our God"? Is the same God whom Jesus referred to as "God" in John 8:40, and "My God and your God" in John 20:17? Or do they mean to refer to something or someone else? Because keep in mind that Jesus only worshipped the Father as God. All His prayers were to the Father alone, and when He gave thanks to God, He gave thanks to the Father alone. Even when He taught His disciples how to pray in Matthew 6, He taught them to pray to their Father in heaven. So to me it makes sense that He would refer to the Father as "My God and your God" when sending a message to His disciples in John 20:17, and "My God" when speaking to the church in Revelation 3:12. But what about you? How do you make sense of all this?

[@kardiognostesministries8150]

@@henryodera5726 Idols can be improperly worshiped because they are not God. Jesus is properly worshiped because He is God.

[@henryodera5726]

​@@kardiognostesministries8150I think that you are unaware that you are are using the phrases "properly worshipped" and "improperly worshipped" in the wrong way. For example, God can be properly worshipped (in spirit and truth), and can also be improperly worshipped (e.g in vain words and not from the heart). "Properly" and "improperly" are adverbs that describe the way an action is being done e.g "He has not sat in his seat properly". "Properly" in that example would be used to describe the manner in which the man has sat, and not used to describe whether or not it is right for that man to sit. So when you say that people improperly worship idols, this implies that there is a proper way to worship idols.

[@chrispaige8880]

The OT definitively establishes the Trinity. And I quote: "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me." Isaiah 48 16. Me is God; Lord God is God & his Spirit is God - 3 persons, 1 God, right there in plain language. Your arguments are tired & tiresome. Indeed, had you studied metaphysics, you'd realize the Trinity is logically necessary (lest God have been incapable of love prior to Creation, making Him CHANGING, thus, IMPERFECT, and thus DEPENDENT ON CREATION. To deny the Trinity is to deny the fundamental nature of God. Had you studied pre-Christian Judaism, you'd realize that they thought God was - at least - 2 divine persons. The whole "oneness" thing was a REACTION to Christianity. Sorry, but Unitarianism is a theological & philosophical joke - a way for atheists to stay in the "church," but not a serious proposal. I know I sound harsh, but this stupidity has to stop - you're spouting nonsense and someone has to point that out.

[@eddieyoung2104]

With respect, I think the one spouting nonsense is you, my friend

[@UCAPodcastHost]

@chrispaige8880 Thanks for the feedback. I am curious if you actually listened, as your "atheists staying in church" sounds like a critique of Unitarian Universalism. Am I mistaken?

[@chrispaige8880]

@@UCAPodcastHost Well, I was trying to make a bit of a joke - fell flat, obviously. Basically, I think "unitarianism" is atheism w/ a religious veneer - in reality, the only authority unitarians believe in is themselves. The "divine" or "spiritual" elements of their beliefs are pretty meaningless, basically sock puppets for themselves.

[@chrispaige8880]

@@UCAPodcastHost And I apologize if my prior answer was too harsh in tone - really just trying to be clear, not angry.

[@ken440]

what you just proved by your choice of wording is that you believe Isaiah was also previously a divine being, as you said here plainly that he "was sent from heaven." Trinitarians use "sent from heaven" as proof of Jesus divinity, so how come you dont use the same argument to prove Isaiah was another divine being?

[@adamlowe8677]

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the Word was God. Genesis 15:1 NKJV‬ [1] After these things THE WORD of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.” The Word is a person, He speaks, He is God the Son, Jesus It's the glory of God to conceal a matter, it's the glory of men to search out a matter

[@UnitarianChristianAlliance]

Jesus is a man: a man accredited to us by God, a man who died on a cross, a man God has assigned to judge the world, a man who is the mediator between God and men, a man through whom grace will overflow to many. Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man (Adam) how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

[@ken440]

when a "word" comes to a prophet, from God, then it is a message, a message in words to be spoken or written. You have stretched that meaning way beyond its credible worth.

[@ken440]

and there is not going to be much glory in it for the one who obscures what God has revealed.

[@adamlowe8677]

@@ken440 I suppose we'll find out one day when we stand before him won't we

[@adamlowe8677]

@@ken440 it's easy to spot someone that's never had an encounter with the Lord, because once you do, once you experience that profound love and power, you know he's God the Son. Not asking this in a belittling manner, but what fruit are you producing or experiencing? Are you seeing people healed, delivered, and brought to Christ. I've experienced all 3 since my encounter with the Lord since September. When we stand before Him He won't congratulate our theology, He'll want to know what we did with what we know

[@Mtnclimber]

Bro, your arguments are pathetically bad. You would not be able to survive debate/conversation with any competent Trinitarian Like David Wood, inspiring philosophy or Sam shamoun.

[@JKV84]

😂

[@UCAPodcastHost]

I appreciate the feedback. Was there a specific one that was pathetically bad? All 6 of the facts, perhaps, were not facts at all? Thanks for the dialog.

[@JKV84]

@@UCAPodcastHost imagine thinking Shamoun is competent. He just vomits words, insults, provoces. He does not have the spirit in him. Complete false teacher.

[@UCAPodcastHost]

@@JKV84 I don't _want_ to agree with that assessment, giving people the benefit of the doubt, but I've heard him say some things to people that I would be embarrassed to say. I guess he found the loophole for treating people poorly, if they don't agree on the Trinity, they are not his brothers. Jesus will judge us however we "treated the least of these, my brothers." They are not brothers, therefore his poor treatment is permitted and Jesus will be very proud on that day of how Sam treated his enemies...

[@Mtnclimber]

Well, first of all, starting with your rant on Cults, all of the arguments that you've made against trinitarian Cults could easily be turned around and used on the palethara of Unitarian Cults that are out there. Then, when it comes to your six facts at the end. let's start with the last one. You claim no author requires believing in the Trinity as a requirement for salvation. Though that is not specifically stated in the scriptures, it can be implied. Romans, 10:9 declares that you must believe Jesus is lord and God raised him from the dead. And all throughout the New Testament, Jesus is declared as God in john 20:28 Thomas calls Jesus "my lord and my God." And on top of all of that, throughout the Old Testament, God is a multiple personal being.

[@stommper1234]

It takes intelligence to understand scripture. Get some.

[@UCAPodcastHost]

That is truly the case. It is certainly easier to believe what you are told. I noted in this episode that ignorance, properly packaged with colorful ribbon, looks remarkably like faith. Appreciate you giving it some thought.

[@stommper1234]

@@UCAPodcastHost speak for yourself

[@ken440]

have you found any?

[@stommper1234]

@@ken440 A person who has a God is not the God whom he has. Are you an idiot.

[@mikeoc217]

Trinity=👹 🙏🏼😇🌅💯