8v8 or 12v12 RANT INCOMING - MechWarrior Online

[@inky9132]

Thanks for saying, what has to be said. Especally about soup queue and groups. As an exclusive solo player I can confirm, that it can be VERY frustrating at times, to the point of asking yourself why you're still playing this game . . . loosing against the same notorious groups again and again and again, knowing the match is probably lost as soon as you see the teams is just no fun :P

[@samueljwilliamsmusic]

The most fun I had in mwo in a long time was when they did the event with 4v4, unlimited ammo, double armor. If that was the standard for quickplay, it would be so much fun. The matches were quick, but not because your mech was shot out from under you instantly the first time you make a slight mistake. Also, 8v8s should be the norm for faction play, not quickplay. It's faction play that desperately needs the help in queue times.

[@GreyHunter88]

It's a tough call, honestly. A bunch of us started the game back in December and got instantly hooked. I got to Tier 1, while the others are Tier 5, 4 and 2. When we group up now, it gets tough. My buddies are way more casual, and once we got out of Tier 5 the stomps began. Usually a 12-1 loss or a 12-0 victory. At the beginning, I would have said there's no way I would have played without a group. Now, I end up playing solo most of the time because my buddies have mostly lost interest. Maybe a compromise where groups are limited to pairs, or where it splits groups between the teams would be the best of both worlds? Other people say that every game uses soup queue, but I played against an MLG team exactly once in years of playing Halo, and if I had to do that every other game like it feels in MwO, I would have quit immediately. There's nothing wrong with groups. There just feels like something wrong with groups of top-level players who are trying their hardest being consistently matched against lower tier casuals playing after work. If I told my friends they were being matched against dudes who dump their settings and use the config file to turn off smoke, water and other bullshit like that, they'd likely never play again. Most players expect to be inoculated against "that kind" of gameplay. Alas, MwO's small population makes that more difficult.

[@junioraltamontent.7582]

I hated the event at first and was counting the hours til it was over, but it forced me to revise most of my builds and put in way more thought when choosing to flank or castle. Now that 12v12 is back i found im doing substantially better in my games. I came in mid event after being away from the game for 3 years so it really had me doing some sinking or swimming.

[@woscanl]

Great discussion, my anecdotal take...I personally felt individual actions were not just more flexible but also were able to swing flanks and counter flanks more pivotally. Were there blowouts, maybe...but most still felt like tactical battles where the ebb & flow had noticeable battles between the two teams, that when lost by one side or the other, the snowball was justified..

[@JaveyJenkins]

Mechwarrior "Nada Surf" chiming in here, 8 v 8 changed a lot of things, man. you had to murderball or die , conquest mode was off a lot with the volume of assault mechs in every rotation and hats off to you guys running lights. 12 v 12 offers higher scores because of target rich environments, and more options for strategies. ✌

[@lrq7927]

Simple mistakes were amplified in 8v8. When your team is down by 2 players (because they ran off and got burned) before you even fire a shot, you are porked. Mostly stomps. In group drops players should not be allowed to drop in the same mechs; 1 assult, 1 heavy, 1 medium, 1 light.

[@dimman77]

All my matches in 8v8 were 8-1 wins or 2-8 losses it felt like. Stompy wins, stompy losses. Not a single close match.

[@williamalvarez9563]

Yeah when a team is good or bad, it shows right away in 8v8

[@Peter2k84]

Seems like any 12v12

[@Drgunzo616]

Yeah it sucked. One team just steamrolled.

[@mushafasa]

Had this same experience, also seemed to bring out toxicity in some higher tier (or pilots who think they're higher tier) I've never heard so much whining in voip about how bad the rest of the team is lol

[@xaius4348]

Even with balanced matchmaking, this is still going to happen a lot. Mwo is a snowbally type of game inherently due to how heat and facetime works.

[@stevec8648]

I'd love if we could continue looking at the mechlab, garage, store, etc while we're queueing with our mech "locked".

[@NoGutsNoGalaxy]

Yeah, I don’t think it’ll happen w MWO but maybe future game?

[@R4V3-0N]

I missed out on the opportunity to play this event, but I played extensively back when MW:O had 8vs8 as the standard and than transitioned to 12vs12, so my opinions will be reflected by this experience. I also want to remind folks that this time in MW:O history was before the post clan war technologies, 'mechs, weapons, etc. Hell even thermal and night vision worked differently and were more effective at longer ranges (I honestly miss the days where each vision mode felt useful and important to flicker between). Over this change it definitely changed the ways for light 'mechs to harass enemy snipers or LRM boats due to there being lower player density and them less likely to have other 'mechs doing the same thing with them that could help each other if a light were to pounce on them. Pre-12vs12 it was an expected duty of a light to go bully anyone on the opfor who strays from the rest be it due to wanting additional range or being out of line of sight. Speaking of LRM boats, their position was unique, ignoring clan tech stuff they were broadly more powerful back then mechanically than they are now, AMS was less strong (and less 'mechs with more than 1 AMS, none over 2), tighter missile spreads and higher velocities, etc. But they (depending on exact update/ time. There were times they were very broken) weren't broken. This can be due to having less LRM boats due to having less 'mechs in general thus the LRM's won't blot out the sun, light mechs and some mediums could press onto LRM 'mechs that are a bit far from their team in the front, and there being less 'mechs to hold a lock or multiple locks. A lot of the current LRM changes reflect the 12 vs 12 nature and how heavy of an impact they could have. Lastly, at least from how it feels back then (unsure how the FedCom tech may effect this) there was less time of both teams just sort of moving around each other until eventually NASCAR happens or enough snipers got banged up that the teams can get into a brawl. I felt 8vs8 was a more dynamic environment and one that wasn't preceded by a good 4 minutes of poking at the other team at a kilometre distance. My only point left is I felt the objective mattered more back then. Having to be more aware of the enemy teams movements in assault, co-ordinating more in conquest and not just deathbawling at one of the central points, etc. ---- This is all I remember from those times and how I recall them. Is it just nostelgia? rose tinted glasses? a product of the pre-fedcom and even pre-clan game and won't be the same like it was back then? all possibly true.

[@stevev7760]

Phil. as the guilty party with the Marauder IIC D our WMC group just plays to the habits of the group. With 8v8 you have to murder ball. if you get a wanderer on the opposite team they just go down one after another. It isn't so much a balance issue as it is that our group has figured out what the pugs do more often than not. If someone runs into the basement they can't hurt you and their team is now down one or even two players. We just ignore them. Now it's 8v5-6. If we play top tier players we usually die a horrible death because they aren't creatures of habit and use actual tactics. Pugs, on the other hand, wander to the same old spot and we'll be there waiting for them. If you want to change it up, make random spawn points. Do something that makes people do something different. People are always looking for someone to follow, having a good leader is invaluable. valt901

[@hawkwarmunger]

What I hated about this 8v8 is no match making... I dropped with a group that had 6 assaults, 1 heavy and me in a light... we walked over the other team like they where not even there

[@TimberWulfIsHere]

Uhuh. How is that different from 8 assault and 4 heavy teams when you have heavies and mediums on your own team? It solves nothing.

[@williamalvarez9563]

Is "no matchmaking" any worse than "terrible matchmaking"? I don't know any more!

[@panzerd18]

That's not the fault of the match maker, thats the fault of the groups using all the tonnage or leaving huge amounts of tonnage behind. The match maker does not match groups with tonnage, only put groups against other groups. Without groups the matchmaker would have a much better chance balancing games.

[@Iliyena87]

...and being the slowest mech on a team that rolled them left me time and time again winning with = or arrow down due to only killing 1-2 light/mediums trying to farm/kill the slowpoke, which gets you about... 130 dmg.

[@GreyHunter88]

@@Iliyena87 Hahaha! This is SO frustrating! Getting a Pilot Tier Down in a 12-0 stomp because you don't even have time to shoot the enemy before they're dead. I got a 0 damage game once on Solaris in a slow Night Gyr. The only enemy I saw before we won 12-0 was a Viper sprinting through a gap between the buildings... I missed.

[@vrry8835]

27 vs 27. Only answer

[@Not_Hans]

My first 8v8 had 4 warlords in it and I said “Nope”. I known a lot of people have asked for respawns. I think 8v8 with respawns would be interesting but again requires time in development which I don’t think PGI will dedicate to. But like you said I do enjoy them trying and experimenting with new things to try and keep the game fun and interesting.

[@NoGutsNoGalaxy]

Yeah I'd like to know 'what' was being tested, and why?

[@drake6782]

​@@NoGutsNoGalaxythat's what I was saying too.

[@h4rdboiled695]

With the lack of armour in this game and long matchmaking times, some kind of respawn or drop deck might help. Or just more armour.

[@Manae.L]

@@NoGutsNoGalaxy And if it was a test--and not just "hey this is what comp queue is like, join a team and try it out!"--why not try adjusting a few more levers? If groups are a problem in soup queue made worse by it being 8v8, maybe adjusting tonnage limits is a simple changing of some numbers in the code. Lower it, say, 20% to stop a group from dominating the total tonnage of the team. A two man could still have two heavies, an assault and medium/low-end heavy, but not two Warlords to just delete anyone that looks at them.

[@Peter2k84]

Shrugs Could take drop decks

[@jeroenwubbels7824]

Liked it actualy, less "nascarry" if that makes sense

[@junioraltamontent.7582]

I found that too. You could actually hold or significantly delay pushes with good enough positioning. The good games felt like two squads deliberately maneuvering against each other and not just one team scrambling to get out of the way of a deathball.

[@catnium]

oh noo the turrets can MOVE

[@blakewatkiss7014]

I get it. Less assault snipers and LRM boats was my experience. Liked that. And team stuck together watching out more for enemy.

[@justincowans2677]

I noticed the change right away. 8v8 seemed like a different game. People had to play with a different style. It seemed like there was less NASCAR to me.

[@chipwitgaming]

Yah, less NASCAR and 100% Murderball. Whichever team stayed the most "together" in a murderball seemed to win.

[@Adalon-]

​@@chipwitgamingso it inspired playing with your team in a team shooter? Awesome

[@chipwitgaming]

@@Adalon- there are ways other then murderball to act as a team. of course you know that already.

[@XKS99]

@@chipwitgaming I was popping up behind murderballs and slaughtering them in my Charger. Multiple 5 kill games. It was heaven.

[@pondafarr]

Most of the people I play with, the main reason we still play, is our Clan. We LIKE playing in groups of at least 4, and we've don't it so long,it would feel like we are excluding portions of our unit when grouping to play.

[@arikcorpus5909]

Dude don’t let the solo min/maxers get you down. I roll group and solo both, more solo tbh. But groups don’t ruin the game. People seem to not remember this game almost died. I’d rather have games with groups than no games.

[@exparrow777]

​@@arikcorpus5909What do you mean solo min/maxers?

[@The-0ni]

@@exparrow777I can’t speak for this guy above me, but I have a few friends who LOVE battltech/mechwarrior. One of them doesn’t play MWO and when we play MW5, he hates it when I tinker with the mechs. He always says I am min/maxing the mechs and gags when he hears about builds like a Direwolf with 6 ER-Large Lasers. My friends love the lore,the mechs. They hate the “mmo paint jobs/cosmetic attachments” and the “min/maxing or “try hard”builds people use.

[@kennethfharkin]

I overwhelmingly play solo. When I can play with groups I do but it rarely happens. That said groups help to keep the community alive. In 12 v 12 having groups of 4 has an impact. It is notable but not insurmountable. In 8 v 8 having groups of 4 is OVERWHELMING when one side has a group and the other doesn't. 8 v 8 must be solo.

[@diogocastro9128]

What i hate most in 8v8 is the supper mega glass cannon You can push GH and vomit a mech, and he is out and don't get punished (rushed) because there's less enemy's to take advantage of that playstyle and the snowball goes harder now 8 vs 7 Having high TTK is a lot fun than getting hit 2/3 times and go to mech bay I like mechwarrior battles not mech-oneshoot duels

[@RedGreen-xf1nq]

I think this is why we see less lights in 8v8. The typical wondering light looking for a lone assaults back. . . doesn't work like it does in 12v12.

[@gravityhamster]

I have only been playing for 2 weeks, but I think you have nailed it spot on. I struggled hard this weekend the blow outs where more intense. It often seemed who ever got the first kill won the match. On the plus side it has made me a much better player I am more focused on what the team is doing. 12 v 12 is much better for new players.

[@bryanhennessy9561]

as a solo dropper i actually like the soup 12v12, fun seeing a coordinated urbie team or narc/lrm, 4 hmg creals, or whatever idea that needs a group. i always try to support thier game plan since they kind of set the tone. i think like 1 week of engineer time on matchmaker could solve half the issues, even with current player count. id love to see the actual algorithm myself if any has it.

[@AccessAccess]

Honestly just give us a "rematch" option. Like if the majority of both teams vote for a rematch, then it restarts the game with the same players and same teams, but allows for a new map choice. Many games are lopsided but around the fifth of the time, we end up with a really close or exciting game and I would love the option to repeat that. The whole point of matchmaker should be to create positive gaming experiences, not negative ones.

[@stormthrush37]

Honestly I love this idea!

[@Fattoxthegreat]

Well don't do this. If this is implemented I can no longer live in my delusional world where the matchmaker decides who wins and who loses and whether or not you won or lost, you would have done so no matter what. You didn't win or lose, matchmaker just put you on the winning or losing team.

[@woscanl]

"Continue w/ team" instead of exit match. Put you in a 'winner's bracket' for continued play against other successful teams...or just do a "Ready up" for a best of 3 rematch against the same team, but different maps...Probably harder to make the second one work with pubber's mentality.

[@Piemasta9000]

@@woscanl overwatch has that continue with team thing and nobody uses it. if this game had a lobby system like call of duty does. it think it would work well. just keep going with the same poeple and the game scrambles the teams

[@woscanl]

@@Piemasta9000 That...kind of makes sense...Warframe's coop is easier/faster to leave the team and re-queue then try to get 4 folks to re-ready for another round. [Leave team | Repeat last mission...]

[@onnadarts23]

I'm a solo player, and groups in 12v12 don't bother me. They're not all great players and don't always dictate the outcome, and in any case, sometimes the group is on my side, sometimes it's on the other side. It all balances out.

[@isaakor]

The 12v12 mode is a jungle; a solo player often doesn't have enough impact to turn the game, and the balancing has become increasingly questionable. For several months, I've noticed a significant drop in the skill level of my matches, with tier 3-4 players often being matched against "high level" tier 1 players. Then there's the wait time to find a match... In 12v12, it can take up to 10 minutes to find a game, whereas 8v8 not only allows for quicker matchmaking but also helps prevent tier 4 players from being pitted against tier 1s. It also drastically reduces the NASCAR mechanics and augment the time to kill (TTK). That's why I believe that 8v8 has a lot of benefits, even though many players are complaining (which is understandable, as such a big change can shock some). However, I think that in the long term, everyone will agree that 8v8 is more interesting.

[@h4rdboiled695]

I found it mostly the opposite. The games eneded so fast the waiting time seemed much longer, i quit playing a few times just waiting. The faster TTK is not fun and for CoD not giant mechs with no respawn. Also big nascar/murderballs just rolling around stomping 8-0.

[@ZetoBlackproject]

Yeah, you must've had a stroke of luck, what I see is the opposite.

[@Adalon-]

Agreed with everything you said

[@isaakor]

@@h4rdboiled695 So, the problem was that there was no matchmaking, just like with the events. Normally, the matchmaker exists but doesn't work well (due to the lack of players). And for events, there simply isn’t any matchmaking... Since this was a test, I strongly suspect that they didn’t implement a matchmaker at all.

[@XKS99]

100% this

[@vincevassallo5385]

Thanks for saying what needed to be said, Phil. Every problem with matchmaking in the current soup queue is magnified in the 8v8 match play. Groups define the outcome pure and simple. As a solo player you are along for the ride. Even if your team wins a solo player will not have involvement or fun because the power group generally rolls the other team so quickly. I will NOT be playing in the 8v8 events. MWO is already frustrating enough for this Tier 4 solo player who is on a break from the latest group shenanigans. Look, I can almost predict the outcome of any match I'm in based on the presence of Tier 1 players, the nature of a group either on my team or the other, the mech composition of my team up front and/or the total weight of my team. I always do a post mortem on my matches and 80 percent of the time a match's outcome follows a predictable pattern. I live for those 20 percent of matches that are truly even and balanced. Interestingly, and perhaps coincidental, I find that matches on the Oceanic server are the most fun and least biased.

[@thefactory7221]

I didn't even know there was an 8v8 thing until yesterday when i saw a highlight of matches during it.

[@ax310n]

Of note Steam charts for the 4 days. Population was less 7 day time before the " event" from 5 to 220-ish. After patch prime time pop was exactly the same before. I played 4 matches Friday, seen the stomps an oddness + no fun. Did not play again the next 4 days but watched streamers play... 1st team to lose a mech lost 90% time. comebacks were rare.

[@thegoondockswarcouncil9543]

I play exclusively solo, and I still manage to have fun. Its hard sometimes, but you adapt.

[@TheIceGryphon]

I always wanted a canyon map where all 6 lances could only run into another enemy lance before meeting up. Like a canyon that looks like a stick shift. Or more branching V shapes.

[@megarural3000]

Preach gospel. The short que times are nice, but the maps do need a spawn reset for 8v8 and the current for 12v12. As for 4 man group drops, or three from the same unit I would say 90% would win. As Phil said, the 8v8 were definitely more stompy. Maybe a separate que system for 8's and 12's.

[@SaltyPuglord]

Thanks for the rant, Phil! I always enjoy these. In a way, I kind of feel like SoupQ is a bit like Skill Tree. In that PGI got it wrong from the start, and then dragging their feet forever refusing to fix it, even when it was bleedingly obvious to everyone that it was busted, and there were plenty of good ideas out in the community as to how to fix it... 🙄

[@Karpata1]

I started playing about 3 weeks ago and I much prefer 12v12. Just feels more chill and more fun.

[@ZeroSpeaks]

One way to fix group drops is simply drop the tonnage allowment. They're still more coordinated but they won't be able to stack tonnage like they can now.

[@stormthrush37]

Honestly my core concern I'd like to see solved is how one-sided/stompy matches get usually, at least when measured by final scores. To me, anything beyond 8-12 final kill count is pretty stompy and yet it seems to be the default, but I'm sure that'll be controversial, but games just get too one sided. I'm not sure what it'll take to fix that. Maybe longer time to kill, improving matchmaker, 8v8, making Conquest the only game mode or much more common, or maybe making the tier scores reevaluate every month or three or something or breaking up tiers into more classification. Maybe all of these and more. All I know is, it's exhausting to be on the receiving end of one-sided loss after loss, and it's why I quit playing. That, and how most of the game was spent waiting in queue for a match, or in an extended walking simulator to get to a few minutes of action that end quickly and the process restarts, though maybe the new spawn points have helped with the walking simulator thing.

[@Lewis_Kilgo]

I agree that group players bear no fault for the state of things, but I have to drag a fact out of the memory hole here. When the queues were separated group players were experiencing terrible matchmaking times, solo queue was working fine. Soup queue was the very flawed solution to the problem with group queue. maybe 12 v 12 solo and 8 v 8 group would be the fix we need.

[@chipwitgaming]

That is an interesting experiment....I was focusing in the assumption that groups in 8v8 make 8v8 unplayable for solo. If the intention is to also make 12v12 solo only....interesting.

[@arikcorpus5909]

Dude it’s crazy that just cause mwo has such an older player base we’re still hung up on a solo/group queue debate. Of course groups are more competitive, but I don’t think the disparity is as bad as it’s made to believe. But every other game has mixed queues, even games that are a lot like Mwo. For the longevity of the game it should be mixed.

[@hechticgaming7193]

I think that you are on the right track. Also the game has always had a more group focus of play, and I think it actually fits the setting. Solos get hosed.

[@PraetorGix]

I loved 8v8. Faster matches, shorter wait times, more team cohesion, less nascaring, and my contribution to the team was higher and more impactful. Using the same mechs I always use I was getting 15 to 20% more damage than usual, even with 4 less enemies to shoot.

[@SaltyPuglord]

I agree with your experience of 8v8. That's how it felt to me, too. But I have to ask... what tier are you in? Because it seems like people in different tiers have different experiences of 8v8. (I'm in tier 2.)

[@PraetorGix]

@@SaltyPuglord I'm in tier 3 limbo, but remember there was no matchmaker or it was working like crap so we got mixed in with people from all over the tiers anyway.

[@foamyesque]

My observations were that matches happened quicker, that the skill in the matches seemed more even, that the skill disparities that *did* exist got highlighted much more sharply, that the snowball effect was strengthened, and that I personally had an 80% winrate :v

[@WillMoon]

I spent the entire event playing fast and hard to hit lights and mediums and had a good time.

[@xavier71a]

"If this was a fun one off event..." Based on multiple forums, this was not fun. I play solo. I don't mind dropping with groups on either side. I have good matches and bad matches. The issue I find with a lot of groups is that they don't use in-game communication and are often on discord or similar. So, while they're communicating with each other, no one else knows what they're doing. They're often just playing their own game and ignoring the rest of the team that are solos as well.

[@noanswer1864]

I hated the event. I liked the fact that I could get into a dirty brawl within a minute of dropping, but my lights and mediums were all but useless. It took a mechbay with tons of mechs, and reduced it to just a few. I'd love a separate game mode for this, but 8v8 destroys all semblance of the game I'm used to. I miss having ECM, scouting, and missile support, and I miss being able to play them when I want. If you drop in anything that isn't all weapons in 8v8, you've wasted a command couch that could have been filled with something capable of medium-to-close ranged combat.

[@flying_banana6611]

I think where the game actually needs 8 v 8 is in faction play. Waiting for a FP game can take hours to get a match if at all. I think damage requirements for getting a green or equals should be dropped a bit as well since there are fewer mechs to shoot.

[@mybuddyken436]

Played a handful of 8v8 matches over the event. Felt like the fights were a little more intense. Also burnt out in a day with how stompy it got. As a newish player who currently drops solo, I've had a ton of fun in t5/t4 and hope it stays fun in t3.

[@wuushew]

The two biggest mistakes ever in this game were both Paul related. Removal of Elo for Tier and removal of Group for Soup. If you went back to Elo not only could you easily implement a secondary sort in matchmaker but also give reason to bring game winning but not Jarl farming mechs like Raven-3Ls and cap Spiders. People are grouping up specifically to Jarl farm, its not equal across all players but more frequently by try hards. Send groups to Faction or Event Q, that is why they exist.

[@philschmidt7794]

I group to play with my friends, bur against can be with. Would it work to group for matchmaking to ensure the group gets into the same game, but the matchmaker places everyone on whatever sides? Then i can sometimes to friend hunting.

[@chipwitgaming]

First - Thank you Phil for posting this. I think people are buzzing about this and having someone who is pillar of the mwo community talk about it in a thoughtful way is extremely valuable. Secondly I am NOT seeing the 12v12 wait time issues so many are having. Granted I am Tier 3 which I think means I can play with ANYONE 1-5. So 8v8 is solving a problem I don't personally experience. I played about 20 8v8 matches. Wait times were quite short, but just about every game was 8 kills to 1 or 2 and VERY fast. The snowball builds exponentially quicker. One DC or underperforming Heavy/Assault and it makes winning nearly impossible and a quick death inevitable. I am seeing many people express the same. Finally, for a solution, maybe have a split 12v12 queue? Tiers 1-3 all go together and Tiers 4 and 5 go together. I don't think we need to limit groups in 12v12. I think 12v12 can accommodate a blend of group and solo if the mech weights are otherwise balanced. I think groups cannot exist in 8v8. I don't think you should give players a choice to either queue 8v8 or 12v12 knowing no groups in 8v8. I don't think the population numbers support that. If the identified problem with 12v12 is wait time and concern over new players getting stomped by top 2 tier players, then perhaps divide it the way i've suggested? Is that possible without "engineer time"?

[@txflood2519]

Lets be honest, a do we even need to consider new players at this point?

[@chipwitgaming]

@@txflood2519 I wish that weren't a valid point. :(

[@tuppytheducky]

The only game where I was playing like I would in a 12v12 and still had fun was the match which you were in funnily enough with my mad cat BH, I had to basically relearn how to play the game to lean into a new play style to enjoy it, I didn’t mind it by the end. The only option I can think of with groups is to have groups be something you can opt into match making with, like you can with regions. There’s times I don’t mind matching solo vs. Groups, sometimes which id prefer if there wasn’t

[@RedGreen-xf1nq]

MY experience was less snipers, less LRM boats, and less lights. . . . All good things (sometimes). However there were a few (likely group) teams, that were organized and were FAR more effective in 8v8 than in 12v12. These groups usually also manage to get the 'compliance' of solo players on their team, doesn't happen often in 12v12. From a teamy team team aspect 8v8 is better. From a casual, solo aspect. . . 8v8 would likely wreck the freedom that many enjoy. Definitely saw less 'wild' builds than usual. I think, ultimately this would drive away a segment of the player base. The "no matchmaker" honestly was better than being say tier 3-5 solo player and playing "off peak hour" getting dropped in with tier 1-3. It seemed skill was better balanced, when there was no "balancing". . . I actually like the "imbalance" of 5 vs 2 assaults. . causes the rest of the team to perform OR fail. This is just MY observations. They are essentially entirely random and not repeatable for anyone else. . . .

[@Wangmasta104]

Fantastic points, thank you!

[@BrettDalton]

I almost stopped playing. Till that stupid event was over. It was absolutely crap, esp in lower tiers it's unplayable

[@Adalon-]

Skill issue

[@kings_nemesis5995]

I did stop fought an king crab in my vapor eagle then got my shit pushed in by a 3 man group in two hatchet mans and a adder ive never died that fast before

[@BrettDalton]

@@Adalon- totally, nothing to do with any group unbalanced the match massively or different, or the match maker having different tonnage on either side being more impactful.

[@rowland.1497]

Solo players are getting hosed is so true. I always play solo, used to be tier 2 , but my rating is in free fall for half a year right now... On an average evening I loose 80% of my games, most as stomps. There are many reasons, but teams in quick play is definitely a point: You have the average LRM-Teams with a narc raven, y ou have 4 craels overrunning a flank or alternatively teams with MASK Atlases and Chargers.... But what also is annoying atm: The unrelieable damage registration. I had matches firing 1800 MRM missiles at Assaults at close range... And I get 200 points of damage out of it. Half a year ago that would have been a 1000 point damage game. - AC5s and light PPCs flying right through enemies without doing damage. Or a Scaleshot firing everything he has in the back of an cherry red Atlas and that thing just turns around and kills you with his next Alpha. I also experienced it from the other side: Timberwolf laser vomit firing everything he has at me. And it definietly looks like he hits me. But his 62 alpha does no damage at all. And that twice in a row. - In an increasing number of games winning has nothing to do with skill anymore, just with pure luck: Your damage gets registered and the other does not...

[@SquishyFletcher]

8v8 means that there's zero support mechs, each and every mech in the game needs to be a max damage build. I saw almost zero sniper or LRM mechs, it was all PPFLD, and mostly short to medium range. It was also mostly Heavy or Assault, except for the teams of MG lights built to swarm and chainsaw through mechs in short time. Very few mediums were on the field because they were too squishy, too slow, or too undergunned to compete.

[@Adalon-]

Acceptable. "Support" mechs are 9/10 absolutely horrible, a waste of tonnage and can't pull their own weight along with not providing enough "support" to matter. Even in pre-mades, they're pretty much a waste. That's PGI's fault, but it's the truth

[@UberSprite]

Did you say SOUPQUEUE was "a Paul Decision", or "an appalling decision" ?

[@NoGutsNoGalaxy]

Yes…

[@KanoWhite53]

Why not both?

[@harackmw]

@@KanoWhite53 he means both

[@drake6782]

For me the game is more fun in groups. Bring back the old Faction warfare where the map changed. Where groups are prioritized. Where fighting for something mattered invasion, it's still clan vs IS. SoupQ could be solo or as is at 4 group size 12v12.

[@kearseymorton2078]

if 8 vs 8 means that i am not facing tier 1 as a tier 3 player, then I am all for it the current player base is so small that mediocre players (like myself) are routinely in the same match as the best ones and it is absolutely zero fun it is a vicious circle at this point: player base is tiny so new people are matched with seasoned veterans, new people get discouraged, they leave and the player base become even smaller the game is very fun at tier 5 and 4 and becomes extremely frustrating at tier 3

[@chipwitgaming]

I feel this too. I am also a tier 3 player. I can certainly tell when I am in a T1-2 heavy match. Good news is at T3 your queue time is short. :)

[@panzerd18]

But if you are tier 3 you face tier 5 which is like tier 1 facing tier 3.

[@txflood2519]

I'd bet there are substantially more tier 1 than tier 5.

[@chipwitgaming]

@@panzerd18 I face both. Honestly, I face 1 more often then 5 it seems. (I think there are just more tier 1&2). And the "Cadet" rank players I face....fairly sure they are smurfs. lol

[@panzerd18]

@@txflood2519 I don't believe that's the case. Tier 1 has the hardest time matchmaking due to the low population size.

[@Rick.is.Young.]

Perfer 12v12 💯 If 8v8 solo only

[@Ilostmycactus]

Having to fight 4 assaults as a medium or light was miserable.

[@TeamKhandiKhane]

I'll just say it here, and I do not care one bit for the ramifications that's on PGI's desk. I want 12 man groups back. Was away for a while and came back to the game tried to group up and we had two groups one of 4 one of 3 and sync dropping was our only option. Then it worked about 1/5th the time if we were extremely lucky. I get why it's bad for balance. But i played this game solo and in group que, and done the same since soup. Solo is a waste of my time these days, but i'll get on if friends do. Don't know how many others out there are in this bucket but a comment for the algorithm gods i suppose.

[@1unkn0wn]

Match maker aside I prefer 8v8 Less guns on the battlefield= longer time to kill less mechs = easier to keep track of enemy locations and inturn more freedom of movement less friendly mechs = better communication and more strategy than just ball up and nascar If the match maker was fixed it should result in better match making and faster ready up times also Back in the day when 12v12 dropped it felt like a big step backwards and I had been playing since closed beta.

[@DarkerDelve]

Personally, I will stop playing MWO if they go less than 12 v 12. This weekend event was terrible to get through and I was counting the minutes for it to be over. I love the game, warts and all, but just flat out no to anything less than 12 v 12. More mechs on the battlefield means more stuff going on, which makes the game more fun. 8 v 8 was flat out boring. It felt quiet and lifeless, compared to 12 v 12. I did not have fun. But that's just me.

[@Adalon-]

Acceptable. Better game at the cost a few people like you? Sweet.

[@DarkerDelve]

@@Adalon- People like me? I love the game and support it with my money. I'm sorry, but I just found 8 v 8 boring as all hell. I'd be happier if it was 14 v 14 or 16 v 16. It won't happen and I get that, but the game would be awesome to play in, with all the craziness and mayhem that would bring. Which to me would be incredibly fun. 12 v 12 is fine in my opinion.

[@Bitterman5868]

lets see, almost tier 4 again, and the moment this event began, i knew the loss streak would be high because everyone would be full on mechsniper lrm mode builds from grimmechs and play only with top tiers, which happened and i hated every moment of it to a point i quit after the 4th match. I play brawl and it was terrible

[@johnmetzakis2910]

Ive just returned to this game after 6 year hiatus which prior lived for this game, legendary founder, gold mech etc, bedsides adjusting, to the changes and now playing solo as my unit has moved on. i still prefer 12 to 8. i enjoy both. cue times are fine but it sucks most when que times are longer than the matches. for 8 to work better besides map adjustments, i think tonnage restrictions ,mech (at least to grouped players) or even limited to stock loadouts, could provide a handicap for solo droppers. another change would be to when quing for a match not to be locked into the que, but im able to continue doing something while i wait, like tweak another mech etc.

[@marcchristian38]

I played 3 8vs8 matches and then i had enough... If you don´t play the absolut damage-monsters or you just be in a group (like you mentioned) it´s just a shit experience. And yes, i am not the best player... but in 12vs12 matches i can play mechs that are maybe not that impactful but are more fun and still have a positive impact. If pgi changes the system to 8vs8 i will stop playing this game for good. And i know i am not the only one...

[@archonwut1624]

I absolutely prefer 12v12 over 8v8. In 12v12 you could be down 3 mechs from fights in the early game and it still 100% be in a winning position, the same simply can not be said in 8v8 and feels brutally punishing as a solo player.

[@h4rdboiled695]

Mechs dont have enough armour for 8v8. Matches end in 2 minutes then wait 5 minutes for matchmaking and next game to load. Mechs generally dont have enough armour for 12v12. This is very obvious in higher tiers where assaults only survive if they hide and snipe. (or your Atlus is in a premade and has backup for a push.) Why not experiment sometime with 8v8 and double armour.

[@arikcorpus5909]

The solo/group debate has always been such a ridiculous debate. Mwo has an active voice chat for the players it’s not like a group together can talk on discord and the team can’t . Every other game has groups dropping with solo. Of course group is gonna be more competitive but for the longevity of the game groups should play with solo.

[@Adalore]

I haven't played this silly game in years, definitely felt the tonnage thing and the suffering in my not quite meta lights in what I am sure was lower tiers. I'd figure an easier "engineering" time thing would be respawns with respawn speeds related to your tonnage. At least let the smallens get back in fast if they live fast and die harder.

[@jaykay5838]

I like the focus of 8v8. The people who like to be carried by their team and hide behind others don't have that ability as much in 8v8's. You most likely WILL be a target in 8v8 and you will have to deal with it. This is why there is so much "one siddedness" in teh 8v8 atthe moment. people will learn and adjust .

[@MrTBSC]

i still consider taking out solaris a mistake all that needed was a best of 3 or best of 5 and i tell you, you would have had the most intense mechmatches there

[@UberSprite]

Are you sure 8v8 was an "event", and not a PGI bug? I smell some Comstar... help!... me...

[@NoGutsNoGalaxy]

Yeah it was done on purpose

[@zalin2000]

I really don't know how to fix this mess. I stopped playing about 5 months ago because like 95% of my games are stomps, and somehow I'm always on the team that gets destroyed. But I also don't want to play a game were 90% of the time I am playing is in a match que.... What if the game allows us to reque after a match with the current players and have them get shuffled with every match. I feel like this would make for a better experience maybe? Sure it will increase que times at first but once you get a game it will be less time in que.

[@daemonwulfe]

I haven't dropped in 3 years and it seems like the same conversation is still being had. Man, I miss this game, but it's directionless.

[@RoughKnight_WMC]

I don’t think there is any real solution to the many number of issues this game has. No matter what is done it will still have disparities in matchmaking, balance, group dynamics and play style.

[@vodkasix8924]

O7

[@johnvanmanen3149]

8vs8 made it very hard to do 2k damage! What a shame!

[@mclang5932]

Haven't played in ages because as mediocre solo player it's more often frustrating than fun :/

[@ZeroSpeaks]

TTK has been absolutely wrecked for a while now. Groups on your team take away your agency. I've had groups on my team carry or bring bad meme builds that essentially make it 12v8 on drop.

[@michaelt.3231]

Has there ever been a discussion to take this to a Pay to Play/Free to Play Hybrid? That would provide them with additional cash flow and provide the paying players with something in return. I play DDO and they have a hybrid system that I feel works. What do you think?

[@MrTBSC]

this game is easily a decade old changing the monetizationmodel with the current small playerbase would not only be super late and weird but very likely more damaging than supporting

[@glendonchan1081]

I had a mixed experience. Very lopsided games, even more so than 12v12. Matchmaking was fast, but I think it was fast because it literally jammed 16 players together without any regulation on weight. I had regular matches of being up tonnage by a few hundred and then down tonnage by the same. Group influence was even more pronounced, which was extremely predictable and borderline shocking they allowed such large groups or even groups at all. Considering the logic or rather lack there of for the implementation of this event, literally all the outcomes were predictable. Not sure what they were trying to learn off of this.

[@Tw1st3dZA]

Pardon my ignorance, but is there a reason why it has to be either 12v12 or 8v8? Is it not possible to do a 9v9 as a middle ground so you'd instead have lances of three mechs and keep the three lances, subsequently max group size would be one lance i.e: a 3 man group? Might require less map/spawn point tooling.

[@Adalon-]

Lances are groups of 4.

[@jensjensen7462]

Battletech Lore. Inner Sphere... 4 Mechs = 1 Lance, 3 Lances = Company, 3 Company = Batallion.... going up to Regiment..etc Clans is 5 Mechs = Star, 10 = Binary Star, 15 Trinary Star... going up to Cluster, Galaxy...etc. Ingame it is just Matchmaking / enough Targets / Match Time / Tier mixing whatever...

[@Tw1st3dZA]

@@jensjensen7462 so what I am gathering is that folks would rather have lore accurate drops than a possible solution or at least a middle ground. I was actually asking about any technical/programming/engine limitation reasons it might have to be strictly either 8v8 or 12v12. Considering it is meant to be a team game, lance size shouldn't really be an issue aside from aesthetics, should it?

[@jensjensen7462]

@@Tw1st3dZA Depends. Lore is a thing. I am coming from the novels and 9v9 would feel wrong for me. But I am going with Phils explanation that for, maybe a majority, of the playerbase 12v12 offers more battlefield opportunities. Another topic is balancing Tiers/Weightclasses/Groupdrops... I skipped 8v8 weekend too after some weird matches matchmaker wise.

[@MechEagle]

The balance of those group was as$!

[@keith5940]

Has there been any indication that MWO will receive more development support after the Clans launch or will it stay on life support?

[@MrTBSC]

very likely livesupport ... might just watch phil's latest podcast with russ from pgi

[@relishcakes4525]

I've actually stopped playing a long while ago. It doesn't really matter what has been changed because it always boils down to the exact same games. Even the objectives don't matter. The game has more issues than "match making"

[@igorbukovy4313]

So why PGI do not want to change the match making system for renting servers?

[@alexmcaruthur6966]

@nogutsnogalaxy i really wish they could improve on terra therma map or have an event featuring either terra crucible or terra therma. Also please bring back river city night and get rid of steiner colesium

[@solarmus923]

8 V 8 has less in game vs queue/lobby/walking from spawn time, since the game length is abysmally short, the slightly shorter queues (if at all) don't make up for that.. For a game with big stompy robots, let's spend more time playing in and with other big stompy robots, not in the lobby. As currently engineered, 8 v 8 sucks and shouldn't have been the default play mode (keep it in event queue if you like it). And since the game ain't getting the amount of re-engineering it'd need, it should stay 12 v 12.

[@alapone9996]

As founder 8v8 back in the old days was the norm and matches most of time meant more cordination and staying close to the team. After playing over the weekend and looking forward to 8v8 I was totally disappointed, 10 matches with one win. This was mostly due to the team splitting and trying to do 1v8, getting left behind, and just General lack of any basic common sense. Thumbs down for 8v8 unfortunately.

[@alpha434]

The actual fix is 16v16 or 20v20. 👍

[@demonslayer6267]

I seem to have the exact opposite experience from everyone, i loved 8v8 so SO much more than 12v12, because for once...i felt i could use ANY of the mehcs i have and, still have fun, still have an impact/carry my weight, i was able to use lights and mediums, mech classes i normally don't even go near of, and have fun, rather than die in 12 seconds, i was able to use assault mechs that normally i struggle to pull my own weight in and have fun with them, be able to actually do things with them and do good, because there was no longer as big an issue of making one wrong turn and being vaporized by the ER PPC's of god, or of being instantly assualted by the US's entire stockpile of missiles, the risk of running into a giant murder ball and dying before getting to do anything just...felt like it was not there

[@GigaPing]

I stopped play during the event. Wins came quick and one-sided.

[@Healthwise.]

Same I literally decided to play anything else than have 8v8 games

[@DarkerDelve]

I didn't stop playing, but the only thing that got me through, was knowing that it was only for a couple of days. But it was rough, and I was thinking, why don't I go play a game, for the weekend that IS fun.

[@sovietalex]

As someone who runs fun builds rather than the latest meta, 8v8 doesn't work as well for me. 11v12 is easier to win than 7v8.

[@79geargrinder]

Simple fix grp of 2 limited to Heavy/ grp of 3 limited to Medium /4 or more limited to Lights.

[@Kordain]

You think a coordinated group of 4 lights wouldn't be able to stomp solos? If going with your idea, I would say maybe as your group size increases it drastically reduces the drop tonnage of the group. Solo (drop up to 100T), group of 2 (drop up to 130T), group of 3 (drop up to 150T), group of 4 (drop up to 170T).... maybe something like that? Or maybe they are required to be different weight classes so a group of 4 would be forced to have one L, one M, one H, and one A? I would say big groups must be limited to size 4 or 6 (maybe allow groups of size 8) and only play against other such groups for 12v12. Let solos and small groups (1-3) play against each other. But this idea would require the population to support it. Maybe the 1-3 group queue could allow 8v8? My issue currently as a dad with limited time to play is if I have an hour one evening I spend ~10 minutes finding a game that lasts on average

[@pivorsc]

premades vs solos is biggest bane of mwo, faction play is bacisly dead just cause this reason

[@HHoD.Maj.KhaleMacGregor]

PGI "DOES" have the resources. The issue is they put most of it on MW5 and other products.

[@MrTBSC]

put yourself in their position and check how well MWO does financialwise these days ... you wouldn't invest much resources either

[@SaltyPuglord]

@@MrTBSC I would be completely fine with PGI not doing anything else to MWO ever again... IF THEY WOULD JUST ADMIT THAT"S WHAT THEY'RE DOING. This stuff where they occasionally do something a little bit different, only to then go radio silent for 1-2 years, is just infuriating.

[@MrTBSC]

@@SaltyPuglord eh they add a bit of content some ballancepatches here and there and the occasional new chassis or variant ... nothing really groundbreaking ... sooo ... personally not bothered by that at all ... neither do i expect more than that ..

[@carlsykessr]

I'm not blaming any body

[@CallmeTrimtab]

I had fun.

[@dmomintz]

Why can't we have both? Why not 16v16?

[@Bigbacon]

hated 8v8 so much..

[@erwinpeterat997]

I totaly agree! PGI missed in the past to split up soloque from Groups. And even when you will lower the max-tonnage for groups, it would be bad, because of the performance of the lights!

[@arikcorpus5909]

Dude groups don’t ruin this game. It’s such an antiquated mindset. As a solo player the majority of the time, who also plays in a group every now and then. That’s exactly how every other game is. Removing solo and group just splits matchmaker for no reason. This game almost died and I’d rather play the game than not.

[@panzerd18]

I agree with NGNG, 8vs8 solo would be the best for balance. I think 2 player groups is a good compromise, and the other players can always sync drop to try to get into the same game.

[@Chaos_Murakumo]

I thought this was just an event.