90 Degree Power Pocket? Nope! | Data Series Ep. 4 | Testing Deep vs Shallow Pocket

[@benjiheywood1108]

You can think about it this way - a shallow pocket means the forearm starts to come out earlier, which inevitably rotates the disc (you can't really cock the wrist MORE to compensate!). With the deep pocket, the forearm comes around much later, which means more of the rotation happens later. In both styles, the disc rotated from its cocked position to its release position, but with the deep pocket this happened later, in a shorter time. The same rotation in a shorter time is the very definition of spin rate. Job done.

[@TheTchieX]

Love DATA! Can't wait for some Forehand grip tests..

[@Footfaultmaster]

1 Finger is the best. I’ll wait for the data though…. 😂

[@NigramPecudem]

The more I learn about the forum the more I am convinced that thinking of it as a LINEAR movement is key. It keeps you more compact, allows you to hit your line easier, and is overall simpler to think of and apply the necessary forces (run up, brace, and hit)

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Agreed

[@bobbybobman3073]

I actually put on a glove (to make my hand slippery and to keep the wall clean) when I was learning and started by just dragging the back of my hand for as long a distance as possible across a wall, without moving my feet. It's certianly not perfect form, it doesn't teach nose or launch angle or keeping that wrist bend to help generate spin. But I did find it was a super easy way to guide myself on getting my pull through close ideally you never are pressing against the wall hard, just barely enough pressure to stay in contact with the wall I found was best. If you have a safe place to do this without breaking anything or hurting yourself, you can work up to a pretty high speed (I'd guess it would w about 40-45 mph throw) with the wall as your guide. Frankly I'd love to hear if this idea helps anyone else.

[@Banned920]

What do you mean with linear? What should you do?

[@NigramPecudem]

@@Banned920 Thinking of the whole motion as moving along a line, as opposed the body rotating and the disc being thrown on a tangent line to that rotation.

[@HeronMarkHero]

this is seriously the types of videos that disc golf has needed for a long time. enough with the speculation and guess work, lets get the science of it going.

[@D3clawed]

Also, favorite teaching disc golf channel. Not only because the way you communicate things clicks w me but also because of endings like this video 😂😂. Be an enabler

[@menneskeeter]

Great video, and I love the Data-series! But, in this video, it is very unclear to me what is what. I see the recent post trying to explain this, but it seems kind of oposite to what is vaguely explained in the video. I would suggest a small split screen with slow motion birds eye view of the two. You do not need to make an actual throw, just show the intended position of the disc relative to your body and your state of rotation. That would be so helpful. I myself am using what to me intuitively would be a shallow pocket, and it turns way more of my discs over. What I intuitively would think of as the deep pocket is what I normally refer to as a collapsed throwing shoulder, which tends to lead to some serious form issues. As this topic is so interesting, and tend to affect timing so much, I would love to see a deep dive. A suggestion for a later video: In your throws here, you are a bit early on. You have your reach back started when you put down your x-step, and your disc is moving forward as you plant your brace foot. Let's say you are 100ms early. What effect does it have when you hit the mark (reach back starts when the x-step is down, and peaks just as the plant foot touches the ground) and when you are 100ms late (reach back is delayed slightly after the x-step, and reach back peaks just after the plant foot is firmly planted).

[@NahhhMeannn]

Great video! Your videos and DG spin Dr are far and away the best disc golf help you can find on the internet

[@kineticchaindiscgolf7864]

This is an interesting topic! For those who may be having trouble comparing the two forms at home, try thinking of "shallow pocket" as "elbow hovers directly above knee during brace" and deep pocket as "wrist hovers above knee during brace". ultimately I think both positions will still have a 90 degree elbow. Repositioning it in comparison to the knee will help change the right thoracic angles to compare between the two.

[@khrom1000]

The deep pocket (i did not know it was called that) is what improoved my game massivly. Shallow i needed full power for a 350 hyzerflip. With the deep pocket i generate so much more spin i can get there with 80% on all (but not steep) hyzer. Accuracy is also up. I love this data series, keep it up. I wish the tech disc was avaiable in europe...

[@yaboi5654]

Crazy how just this week I was experimenting between a shallow and deep pocket and then you release this video confirming. I naturally have a shallow one but when I was messing around with the deep pocket the discs seemed to fly farther. Looking forward to my Techdisc at the end of October.

[@Jason-Moon]

Came here for a nerd calling me a nerd. Got results! Seriously: I think this might further help me recover my ankle injury on plant foot. I was "hopping" onto it. Fixed that. But I think any form of rounding puts extra stress on the pivot too.

[@AlanS_DGC]

I ordered the techdisc this morning. I can not wait for it to show up. It’s gonna be a fantastic off season.

[@lucinity4351]

Phew. My natural form is a deep pocket. Still many other things to fix but my natural flow a month into the game is a deep pocket. Yay

[@jacobbaugus6311]

I need help with how to break my shallow pocket habits. The ideas of bracing issues and random accuracy issues all make a ton of sense in light of what you stated.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Slow practice my friend

[@D3clawed]

Data series is the best! I’m saving up for one now. I’m excited to see the spin one because I’m constantly changing where I grip my disc because mid way through this season I gripped way at the top and for one day I was throwing like a god and then I just lost it lol

[@tomjenner6139]

sorry I "fanboyed" you at USWDGC on hole 17. I just wanted to tell you I appreciate you. Your player was amazing!

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Not a problem! We love meeting peeps

[@discgolfwes]

Great video as always guys!

[@AlohaVibes808]

Yes! More Data🤓

[@Iantwi_dg]

Every time you guys upload it inspires me to hit the field! Thanks for the amazing content as always, and thanks for helping me to kind of understand why I suck 🤣

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Hit the field… with discs!

[@Iantwi_dg]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf that’s the part I’m missing 🤣🤣

[@Vanbulance89]

Loving the data series.

[@dmfdynasty]

Overthrow: Spend hours practicing each of these mechanics Also Overthrow: Here's a new video every single day. Keep up!

[@rmellish3]

lmao my thoughts exactly

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Pretty much

[@NickCarroll]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf has been renamed "InformationOverloadDiscGolf" 😂

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

@@NickCarroll Buildupplaylistsforlaterviewingdiscgolf

[@NickCarroll]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf I'm here for it!

[@ThePlanetNamik]

Another great data driven video.

[@TwannGoDisc]

NEEDED this one!!!!!!!!

[@happyboyeeeee]

Josh, I like seeing the data, but I wonder how much that increase in spin translates to distance. Will you also do some of these in the field? I think McBeth has a shallow pocket throw and can still throw as far as any top pro. So, I wonder if spin falls off at some value and with the combination of high speed you can achieve a large distance. Spin could be measured as an inverse log function by itself as a function of distance, but when distance is assumed to be a multivariate log function as a function of both speed and spin, could this be a larger detail behind the data? Are you also allowing your wrist to close in the deep pocket with the elbow stop or are you resisting it? I remember reading pros mentioning they resist their wrist closing on the elbow stop, which as they say results in more tendon bounce at the hit. A lot of pros are iffy at coaching and talking about these details though, so I wonder what thoughts you might have on all of this? Anyways, it would be fun to watch how the distance changes with depth of pocket and varying speeds. How are you so good with your pocket depth!? What are you feeling or timing to do this? Keep up the good work, and looking forward to seeing more of your content!

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I think speed is the determining factor for distance and spin basically dictates disc stability. Our next episode is going to be on producing spin. I think I’m prone to being able to manipulate my form almost at will and I’m sure coaching through positions has only made it better.

[@dwmichaels]

Love the data series!

[@keyelectric91]

Grip pressure needs a video like just normal grip then add a some pressure and then full forearm power squeeze.

[@hiddenleaf414]

Can you explain more what a deep pocket means? It was hard for me to tell the difference in form between the two.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Disc on your left pec versus disc on your right pec before it starts moving away from the body. Another way of saying that is does the elbow drive past the body before the disc comes out or not.

[@brannnnnnn]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf would you confirm that the thumbnail for this video is the opposite of the stated description above?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

@@brannnnnnn the thumbnail accurately shows the difference.

[@1andonlyMiro]

This is a tough one to test but do body proportions matter here? I have a somewhat long wingspan (not a lot but a bit) and some muscle mass (been working out pretty hardcore in a bodybuilding style but I'm definately not a competitive bodybuilder. I think it's obvious that there is a middle ground sweet spot here (closer to the deep pocket than the shallow pocket) regarding that muscle mass or possible fat tissue, especially with women, but does arm length have an effect here?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I’m sure they do. You are also correct that it is tough to test

[@KGDiscGolf]

My other issue I've noticed I have is the swoosh issue. I'm getting that minor u shape, but it's an issue I can't seem to get fixed to get it straighter going through.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Addressed that on the nose angle video talking about the straight elbow

[@NickCarroll]

KG I have the answer for you. I saw your recent vlogmas video. You're doing what I do (but I'm working on). You externally rotate your upper arm at the shoulder during your backswing. What this does is the following: 1) Brings the elbow down and the disc up. The elbow is below the disc by the time you are at peak backswing. 2) The disc goes off-plane from the middle of backswing, to the peak, through the entire swing, so when you release it, the disc ends up nose up. Now, with that said, you do some correction to the disc by the time it's at the moment of release, which cuts down wobble a lot. You might consider slowly working on this, using your eyes to verify the arm doesn't rotate, the elbow and disc are on the same plane through the backswing and swing.

[@KGDiscGolf]

@@NickCarroll thank you!!! It's a pain. I'll go back and watch the videos I've posted and continue to see it. I think maybe I'll try this...nope. I'll look at that more and see what I can do. Do you have any tips that you're currently doing to help tdy and not do that?

[@andrewjohansen640]

Have you done anything to observe the objective findings of how far you can throw with the same speed but different spin rates and/or rates of wobble? I just want to know how a spin rate of 150+ affects the distance. Also, would be cool to see how much extra speed one would need to compensate for a spin rate that is 150+ lower to get the same distance

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

We have tried to figure out a way to test that but we aren’t that smart

[@drewriley1889]

Can just say you look fantastic!

[@ToddsDiscGolf]

If it’s still 9/22 Someone please if you have a minute will you check my form and tell me what ONE part of my messed up form I can fix before this weekend’s tournament, I’d REALLY appreciate it! I have one day before the tournament and I’ve somehow lost 25 feet off my max distance since last month, not to mention I all of a sudden can’t hit the broad side of a barn I’m aiming for! Edit: some of the things I’ve identified are a) bent front leg instead of straight brace, stopping me from completing rotation B) front foot landing behind my back foot instead of in front of it C) nose angle way way up D) shoulders rotating during snap instead of arm coming through first and then rotating E) left arm has a mind of its own F) early release?/grip issue? No snap. G) so many things But which can I realistically fix in a few hours of practice? So far, due to one commenters advice, tomorrow I will be working on my upshots from 100-150 feet and practicing putting. Due to another commenters tip I will be using Robbie C’s “play for par and choose a few attack holes” philosophy at the tournament. I really want to win the keychain/bag tag,

[@drkevns]

good content. anything that kills the 90 degree thing. be wide like GG.

[@dwmichaels]

Going off your comments at the end about folks buying one of the tech discs. Since you've had it for some time - there might be some videos in how can folks a) get benefits from their purchase right away and b) get benefits over the long haul. Have you (or seen others) take the disc out to tournaments or gatherings for folks to check their numbers? Like a few bucks for x throws?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Haven’t taken it out but I know the TechDisc team has taken it to big events.

[@KGDiscGolf]

I'm realizing I'm having a shallow pocket vs. deep. Welp, now it's time to work on this.

[@TheWunshot]

Bro what a great video. I love the statistical deep dive. I hope the tech disc guys make millions. Can you point me to a video that has the biggest impact on speed? I'm 6'8" and according to tech disc I'm throwing 56 mph on average. I can get my drivers out about 360' on average with a max of 430' (no wind). I'm guessing that on the max my form just happened to align properly and juiced it that extra distance. Anyway, I watched Simon's mph = distance video and I'd just like to get my speed up another 10 mph to 66. Thanks! P.S. do you do private virtual lessons?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I would have to see your form to know what is hurting your speed the most. 66mph is a good goal. Yes I do private virtual lessons. Link in description

[@4dwyn]

So what you're saying is pulling across the chest ISN'T a weak move?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Correct

[@Giggity4242]

That’s really interesting and makes a lot of sense. I went back and looked at my most recent slow mo and I’m definitely on the shallow pocket side. What’s the fix here? More arm speed? Staying in the throw longer? I watched some of your other videos about power pocket but I’m having trouble making it stick. I think about bringing the disc to the right pec but it inevitably ends up on the left.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

The key is to get the position correct no matter how slow you have to go. Then speed up little by little from there

[@Giggity4242]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf I’ve been slowing my swing down lately and getting way more distance that way. Maybe I’m getting it into that correct position on those slow swings. I’ll keep working at it. Thanks for your help!

[@HyzerFlip]

​@@OverthrowDiscGolfYou mean to tell me I can't just mash the disc over and over until I throw it 500 feet? I say boo to that. Boo!

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

@@HyzerFlip could be worth a shot

[@aztodd]

Purchased!!

[@Mojos058]

Nice post, but I wish you would’ve explained the difference between deep and shallow pocket.

[@TheMakki]

The reference is to when the forearm extends through the hit. For righthand, shallow is disc at left peck, deep is at right peck.

[@alexanderbeebe5169]

I’m sure this has been asked and answered somewhere but what is the app you use for playback and annotations on the phone/iPad?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

OnForm

[@alexanderbeebe5169]

Thanks!

[@rickfunk1355]

I'm curious how the flight distance differ between the deep vs. shallow pocket?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

With more spin the disc should hold its line longer. Should

[@natebell4764]

Im fine with a deep pocket on hyzer. But i cant seem to hit a line with it on anhyzer. Any thoughts anyone?

[@outer1m]

After my calculations, we can confirm this sir throws about 430

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

🧐

[@mattjohnson1812]

Are you using Tech Disc distance driver or fairway driver?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

We have both but this video is with the distance driver

[@heythatjusthappened]

Intro song sounds like a The Weeknd song!

[@sanderaul4420]

Could you explain the launch angle stat. I'd appreciate if someone worded it for the layman.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

That is how far up in the air you throw it

[@HyzerFlip]

The angle the actual flight of the disc took relative to the ground. Going beyond that, nose angle is the angle of the nose relative to the launch angle when you throw.

[@OutThereImages]

What were the distance differences between the two pockets?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Unsure. Mph is the biggest indicator of speed given decent nose angle.

[@OutThereImages]

@@OverthrowDiscGolfAgreed. My question is how much further did the higher spin rate drives go? Or was it negligible? Thank you for the excellent content!

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

@@OutThereImages I think the spin determines stability more than distance. Which would affect accuracy more. The spin has to be pretty different for it to matter more than shot shape I think

[@ZeeK33NKS]

Brief Case hold + Deep pocket = effortless Bombs. Enjoy!

[@french1991toast22]

Love the cheesy 80s hype music 😂

[@theargolfer2084]

Is it an optical illusion that you’re throwing downward. Looks like your releasing at belly height or even waist height?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I could be throwing low. Very easy to do on a net setup

[@NickCarroll]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf I have the same net. It's the perfect height for forehand practice. A touch low for backhand, and it does influence me to throw lower than normal.

[@theargolfer2084]

Cool thanks@@OverthrowDiscGolf

[@theargolfer2084]

I’ve been thinking of getting a net, do you have an opinion on a bh one?@@NickCarroll

[@joshdchiefman1]

Does the Tech Disc come with hardware for cpu?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

It bluetooths to the website or app

[@aspottedfriend4289]

Hey Overthrow guys. Have you guys tested the disc with a speed gun to know the accuracy?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

We have not

[@donnywalter2000]

I have a speed gun and a TechDisc. They agree for my arm speed.

[@majordude83]

Did you get the fairway or distance tech disc?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

We’ve got both

[@majordude83]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf Ha, what would you recommend?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

@@majordude83 depends on what you are working on!

[@Fantastik87z]

❤

[@rainycity4]

I wonder why does pros consistently throw from shallow pocket in all slo-mo videos I’ve seen so far?

[@deanotto1130]

Probably the same reason we do. But they are genetically gifted with faster twitch muscle fibers, the optimal arm length levers, or other body genetics and train all the time to make up for form imperfections.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Almost all of them get deep. Most evident from the above view.

[@thompson222]

Shallow pocket even looks weaker

[@OldToyoter]

I'd like to enable your family's food addiction, but theres no link!

[@ReeRuns]

Omg first