A 4D Level Editor - 4D Golf Devlog #5

Try out Miro for free: miro.com/yt/game-sketching/
This Devlog talks about the design decisions I ended up making for the level editor of 4D Golf, which will be included with the release of the game, and how that process currently works.
Wishlist 4D Golf on Steam: store.steampowered.com/app/21...
#4dgolf
Devlog #1: • So I Guess I'm Making ...
Trailer: • 4D Golf | Release Date...
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Music (CC BY 4.0)
contreloup - Follow the Bunny
freemusicarchive.org/music/co...

[@x8c8r]

When this gets released I am going to spend DAYS designing most cruel levels possible, as well as breaking my own head from thinking in 4 dimensions.

[@NutyRiver]

4D kaizo levels

[@pneuma-studios2036]

Bet, the amount of kaizo and impossible trick shot levels will be legendary 😅😂

[@Catman_321]

Imagine the niche community stuff like this will create around this game

[@jacobpalomarez5349]

How long before someone hurts themselves by trying to turn kata from their bathroom and bumps into a wall?

[@uninable]

pixel perfect frame perfect troll level

[@matthewparker9276]

A level editor was not one of my expectations for a 4d game, but now I can't wait to build my own course.

[@thepanremastered]

bot

[@Periwinkleaccount]

@@thepanremastered It’s just a normal comment, and the user created the account five years ago. Are we not allowed to say basic things about the video?

[@thepanremastered]

@@Periwinkleaccount 55

[@Periwinkleaccount]

@@thepanremastered What?

[@mr.shplorb662]

@@thepanremastered What

[@carykh]

Oh wow, I've always LOVED rollercoaster Tycoon's track editor! I think it's always satisfying when a level can be exported as a simple text file, it makes it so easy to share between friends

[@goober4347]

oh hey, it's Cary. Hi

[@ACircleGuy2763]

WOAH CARY? I DONT KNOW HOW I FOUND YOU!

[@BuppAnims]

i was not expecting to see you here

[@ACircleGuy2763]

@@BuppAnims same

[@badpiggs]

its the bfdi guy!

[@eliewilhelm]

this is actually a gaming revolution. Remember this when we're gonna all be playing trackmania 4D.

[@flabort]

Oh, boy. A 4D racer, whether "Kart" style with powerups, or more "Trackmania", would be insane. How quickly would you turn in Ana and Kata, and if there's more than one person on the track, what happens when they colide?

[@Andromeda9009]

Bro, give me a 4D racing game

[@moonlightsonata9396]

@@flabortcolliding in 4d would be a god damn nightmare for anyone, especially speedrunners

[@jojolafrite90]

I doubt that can apply to an actually fun game like that. It's interesting, fascinating, even, these devs doing stuff with dimensions (I would love the idea of a path tracing renderer that doesn't fake dimension weirdness as much as possible, I was searching about this kind of stuff years ago, that's when I found this channel), but I doubt it can really be fun as an actual game gimmick. But who knows, if one indie dev can actually make a revolutionary game, who knows, some kind of 4D Tetris, who knows, and it's actually fun, that would be amazing.

[@moonlightsonata9396]

@@jojolafrite90 tbf, there are many games that aren’t meant to be fun, just hard

[@m_affiliates]

I can't wait for near-impossible kaizo levels in 4D golf

[@cheerosukolpat3154]

Real-time 4D change (when ball is still moving) Hole-in-one challenge stage when?

[@40watt53]

god dont give them the idea

[@litterbox019]

finally 4D golden kzbin.info/www/bejne/nmjSeJRqlJd_aZo

[@EvonixTheGreatest]

"There is no way to intuitively understand the methods needed to solve this golf course, it can only be defined mathematically"

[@MichaelDarrow-tr1mn]

@@cheerosukolpat3154 4d change doesn't affect where the ball goes

[@DevDunkStudio]

You're insane. I thought making a proper 4D game is close to impossible and here you are making a level editor for it :o

[@dryued6874]

To be fair, most of the time the devs have some form of a level editor, unless they use formats they already have third-party editors for. It's kinda hard to make a game without levels, and equally hard to build levels without editors.

[@-minushyphen1two379]

have you heard of 4d miner?

[@lolliii5477]

are we that close to future of 4d simulation

[@zzztopspin]

4D level editor? So amazing!! I'm excited for the future of movement based 4D platformers, like a cozy mario oddysey or pseudoregalia but with more dimensions

[@tirushone6446]

lol imagine the mind bending plays you could make in 4d movement shooter

[@zutaca2825]

@@tirushone6446A 4D shooter sounds so difficult, there’s a whole other dimension to worry about aiming in

[@AManChoosesASlaveObeys]

@@zutaca2825 Tht's the fun. Figuring out until it's just intuitive.

[@captaineflowchapka5535]

​@@zutaca2825 perhaps not a shooter more a tag game or something along the line or you can have map exist in 4D , but only interactable in 3D , everchanging mind bending space where the goal is more so find the enemy than killing him or you can make a game about environement manipulation , like robot in some fuck up space , with included aim bot wehre the whole point is to check mate the oponent with tool and the environement

[@zutaca2825]

@@AManChoosesASlaveObeys the bigger problem here is that the kind of fast, precision movements you need with a shooter require at least 3 axes of rotation, which means that you can’t use just a mouse or a single joystick to aim, you need to manipulate at least 2 different control methods simultaneously. The other problem is that with 4D golf’s approach to showing you a 3D slice of a 4D space, most of the time you can’t see the vast majority of things in the space, which in this case includes other players. The game would largely consist of constantly rotating your view to try and find other players, not actually shooting at them.

[@ArmanVesona]

What? 4D level editor? 😂 I was suprised, what a cool project

[@thepanremastered]

bot

[@kech-agmaio8620]

@@thepanremastered 😡

[@pneuma-studios2036]

@@thepanremastered What? But... why is he a bot?

[@ratewcropolix]

@@pneuma-studios2036 not literally, they mean that he talks like a bot

[@ArmanVesona]

@@ratewcropolix Maybe cz my english is bad?

[@TheParagade]

Imagine if releasing this to the public leads to an Arrival style ability to learn to perceive a fourth dimension :P

[@markmarketing7365]

Cool! Can the singing paths also reconverge? Having multiple routes but in 4D sounds crazy!

[@bengineer8]

^

[@vanderkarl3927]

Even if the snapping, branching linear structure didn't allow for it, I'm sure it could still be accomplished with the translation tools and such. One path could be a "dead end" that actually leads onto another path.

[@flabort]

@@vanderkarl3927 That's exactly how Code Parade said he did it in another reply. There's a 'null' piece to end tracks where they meet up with other branches.

[@Cxntrxl]

hitting a 0d point (sorta) into 1d walls (also a strech) on a 2d surface in a 3d slice of a 4d golf course has got to be one of the greatest dimensional crossovers of all time

[@vaakdemandante8772]

Many of the great games have level editors included so that the players themselves can add to the game and create a community. Awesome decision to do it for 4D golf as well and fingers crossed for the game to succeed.

[@EDoyl]

Plenty of people play Rollercoaster Tycoon JUST for the track builder. A similar tool that builds intuition for 4D as well is interesting even by itself! Sharable custom levels are a big deal for golf games and the fact that this one can use ordinary text files could make sharing extremely easy. Might be tough to include decorations but if you've got some nice level themes there's no need for decorations (plus, 4D decorations might be too unintuitive for an in-game editor anyway).

[@WackoMcGoose]

As someone whose only functional understanding of traversing 4D space is of the "layers" variety (where the W-axis can only be walked in discreet increments, and each increment fully changes the 3D-slice environment... think LittleBigPlanet, but one dimension higher), this video really freaked my bean. Looking forward to having the full game completely brain-break me!

[@SunnyKimDev]

I would advise adding the version the map was created in the metadata, so if you happen to change your save file serialization algorithm, you can redirect older save files to a legacy level loader.

[@Mastikator]

If possible please have a multiplayer option, I'd love to 4D golf with my friends!

[@muffinconsumer4431]

If it doesn’t have one the game is dead on arrival, no sane person plays minigolf solo

[@luis-sophus-8227]

@@muffinconsumer4431 let alone a 4D version of it Most people will just shrug it off because it actually involves brain

[@lev7509]

YES

[@Wulfstrex]

There will at least be Remote Play Together when it releases

[@hoveringgoat8061]

Dude its looking amazing. Take your time and polish it up. This game is definitely going to get a cult following

[@atab6555]

This is going to break my mind on release

[@Wulfstrex]

So it will break your mind on March 22nd

[@OddlingCore]

The very nature of the choice of mini golf where the greens are basically two dimensional planes allows for even better comprehension of the “slices” of the higher dimension, it logically succeeds the whole flatlands concept. Additionally I just watched a video essay on Rollercoaster Tycoon and how the physics are hardcoded into the game so it makes total sense that it’s what you were drawn to and explains a lot about your own endeavors of maths explorations turned into game creation!!!!

[@sgthometar]

This is amazing. Like, I think you should win an award for this.

[@cheeseburgermonkey7104]

KZbin is a _perfect_ platform that has absolutely _no bugs_ related to subscriptions and notifications

[@veggiet2009]

As a fan of 4D, level editors, and RCT, you have no idea how much this makes me happy!

[@KingRCT3]

Oh, the shoutout to RCT was unexpected but very welcomed (my username does refer to the third game of this franchise). Also thanks for these devlogs. I won't go as far as saying I fully understand 4D, but it's interesting to follow your progresses.

[@sonicdragon75]

I've never heard of the fourth dimension having a named axis. I like the names Ana and Kata, because it feels like two pieces of opposing polarity that fit with each other.

[@TheFoxfiend]

You mentioned Hyperbolica and I was like "wait, I know that game, is this really the same guy?" and double checked, and yeah. I recall I left a "not recommended" review on it, not because I felt it was bad, but because I felt I couldn't recommend it to people trying out VR because it is nauseating. Really cool and novel concept, and I think you did an amazing job executing it.

[@eefflie]

The thought of a 4 dimensional game is terrifying. I love it.

[@antipastamony]

fantastic work! I'd love it if instead of being locked into the depth-first linear creation you could select which unoccupied connection point wanted to extend with the mouse at will. this would let you jump between branches of the tree to work on whatever part of the level inspires you, feeling much less restrictive as a result. while it'd require a bit more UI work to get up and running, it would be fairly trivial to maintain the roller coaster tycoon style linear storage of a level's structure. when "jumping ahead" to a different branch, you'd just keep track of the incomplete branch's endpoint so you can jump back to it when its node is selected. (kind of a rough explanation, but it should be enough to at least get the idea across.)

[@CodeParade]

This is something I hopefully will do.

[@lev7509]

yep certainly a great idea for a more flexible interface to allow you to build a stage "out of order", developing branches as the ideas come.

[@alistairmathie7632]

The text file thing could be reformatted so levels could be sent by a copy paste, instead of by some level hosting thing

[@navydave5238]

I do have one question about the controls: Can you angle your shot in the 4th dimension, i.e. shooting it so it's apparent speed is slower but it moves through the 4th dimension as it travels, until it hits a wall. Also would make some really interesting puzzles where you have to use one shot for parts that have different locations in the 4d, or to make your shot hit and bounce off of a 4d wall.

[@CodeParade]

Yes, you have full control of aiming. But while aiming, your camera adjusts to be in that frame of reference (which is why the world appears to warp). So when you putt, it'll always start with the ball traveling at it's apparent speed until it bounces off of something or you rotate your camera.

[@nazunasapostle1stapostleof755]

​@@CodeParadeah shit i can imagine levels where you gotta rotate your cam to make the ball fly through the 4th dimension to avoid a wall that would be there if they didnt rotate their cam mid flight

[@lev7509]

@@nazunasapostle1stapostleof755 not how it works; it's there regardless of how you orient your 3D viewing slice

[@ansonx10]

Yeah the editor could probably collapse a lot of the similar pieces together with a clever way to choose which piece to use, but honestly I'd say not to worry about making it _too_ easy to make levels. The best levels pretty much always come from the jankiest and most difficult level creation tools.

[@arthurbodet1231]

This is really impressive, I'll consider giving the game a try. :D Also as a game designer who worked a lot with Miro, I've never agreed that much to a sponsorship before !

[@Vextrove]

Rollercoaster Tycoon is a technological marvel written in assembly

[@Skeffles]

Fascinating to see how the level editor works and that RCT inspired it! It'll be awesome to see what kind of levels the players create for the game.

[@pyro-millie5533]

This is insane!!! How freaking cool!! Also I love the little quality of life features you already have in there, such as the multiple views and the adorably styled orientation compasses that have all the possible rotations listed. When I first started workind in 3D space for CAD stuff, figuring out how to orient was immediately the most important thing. Now it comes pretty innately, but its always good to be able to see the little origin cube thingy spinning as I work to make keeping track as easy as possible. I have a feeling it will be the same with the compasses in this game

[@flowrling]

this level editor looks really cool! this is the first devlog of this ive seen and i think im already interested in it, definitely looks fun and even useful for understanding 4d space better

[@sadtwolvesfan]

"I don't want to release the game before I polished it up properly" AAA developers : I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear that

[@galaxygames3216]

Another amazing devlog, really looking forward to playing the game.

[@Wulfstrex]

It is the 22nd of March that you are looking forward to then

[@Strato5]

God I love computer games. Theres so much awesome creations that you could not get in any other medium.

[@Callie_Cosmo]

You should add a marble it up movement schema for more variety in custom levels when it comes out

[@CodeParade]

Have it already 😉

[@Callie_Cosmo]

@@CodeParade nice, never mind then

[@ZiggityZeke]

You should win an award for this brilliance

[@lesliejohnrichardson]

I fucking love how this is coming along

[@fosterturtle]

Now you’re thinking with portals! This project looks super cool!

[@Palozon]

Try to send some game keys to content creators. Games like Golf It! and Golf With Your Friends have been a staple on KZbin, so it would be worth exposing your game to that audience.

[@xcoolio]

Liked the concept as soon as you mentioned RCT2 as inspiration

[@Minihood31770]

I'll take your word that it becomes intuitive to work in 4D, because just watching it is so confusing. I can't wait to give it a try though, I suspect being able to actually interact with it will help a lot.

[@Wulfstrex]

Then try it on the 22nd of March

[@blobberberry]

The visualization of nearby track in 4D looks AMAZING.

[@felixplays4229]

I Never thought that you would be able to add a level editor! Nice job!

[@pneuma-studios2036]

So you're telling me even I can get my head around designing 4D environments?! 😳

[@HarrySarge96]

Have you considered using blue vs red tints to distinguish between the hinted features in the + vs - 4-directions

[@Hermes_Agoraeus]

Come for the level editor, stay for the music.

[@LuxurioMusic]

I'm quite hype for this, having a level editor looks quite fun too!

[@randomsomeguy156]

Truly amazing. Wish you the best!

[@LogicEu]

Absolutely mesmerizing

[@ruolbu]

that Editor might help with actually understanding things. because as of know this is all way above my head

[@DaveyL2013]

ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE!

[@tekt_real]

Can't wait for this. 4D is fascinating and having a whole game about it is just so cool.

[@Wulfstrex]

Only wait until the 22nd of March

[@TreesPlease42]

love to see it! stick with it and you'll get there

[@hydroxa4330]

I hope that, with these new concepts, we get to see 4D become a game genre just like 2D and 3D

[@theblode1337]

first time in a LONG time there has been RCT footage on my screen without Marcel Vos' delightful accent in my ears

[@MC_Kun]

this is amazing, you could easily sell the editor on its own product

[@sexy_koala_juice]

I don't know how feasible this is but this would be amazing in VR.

[@Wulfstrex]

I think the devs has post-release plans to implement VR support

[@AbelFerralla]

When I read "Level Editor" I screamed mentally "WHAT DO YOU MEAN??" but you managed to make it surprisingly simple lol

[@mikah8998]

Hey CodeParade, I would like to see 4 Dimensional convolutions, you are the only one I can see interested on the subject!

[@caldarinavyfleet]

OMG Finally another episode of the 4D game series!

[@Patashu]

Wow, this just got a lot more exciting!

[@thomaswade3072]

So excited for this game!

[@lolliii5477]

i can feel my brain expanding as the video goes on

[@lolliii5477]

DELICIOUS

[@AlanZucconi]

I feel the *urge* to ask more about the pattern of those 4D sand dunes. 👀

[@IloveRumania]

Wow, this looks exciting!

[@AlanZucconi]

This is the content I'm here for! 👏⛳

[@skeleton8817]

OHMYGOSH, YEEEEESS 🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤❤

[@familiarfan]

I really like that the levels can be saved with txt files. It brings me back to when I used to make and play custom super mario flash levels on my school computer and save them all on a doc to play them at home.

[@AlexanderQ689]

I'm so excited for this

[@SemiHypercube]

I hope there's multiplayer in this, that'd be cool

[@Wulfstrex]

Remote Play Together on release at least

[@aurorazuoris6654]

Can't wait for the Klein bottle level!

[@gonegahgah]

Think about what a Klein Bottle is to work out how this would be a problem? Can you make a 3D golf level out of a Möbius Strip? It is nice to dream though.

[@drdca8263]

@@gonegahgahYou can make a Möbius strip golf level if the gravity direction can change throughout the level Edit: and, to put it in 4D, just slightly thicken the floor in a transverse direction to make it 3D

[@gonegahgah]

@@drdca8263 That's possibly a good solution. You covered both problems nicely. Maybe the OP will pick up this idea?

[@The13thRonin]

This is so yesterday. 5D or nothing baby. If I can't contact Cthulhu through the level editor what even is the point?

[@Gorvvb]

This is an extremely cool project

[@dj_laundry_list]

Can't wait for 5D Golf. Or n+1 dimensional golf more generally

[@platurt9595]

Hell yeah, congratz on the sponsorship!

[@malbowzer3006]

Bro is a forth demential being and no one can convince me otherwise

[@flabort]

I noticed in volume view that track pieces resemble rectangular prisms or cubes. What would a volume-view cylindrical piece look like in golf/regular view? And what would a piece that resembles a bobcart track in golf-view with its U like dip towards the middle look like in volume view?

[@tomatomtom4921]

Can any big game studio offer him a position as game director or project manager? This guy can add some fresh air im the gaming industry with more resources and a team to work with. His works are so unintuitive, it really feels good to be challenged by his games!

[@ChuckSploder]

unconventional, not unintuitive

[@CaseyHofland]

You’re insane: absolutely genius!

[@gold4963]

I find the fourth dimension so fascinating. I will definitely be buying this game the moment it comes out!

[@felixplays4229]

I’m also buying the game when I see it come out

[@jimday666]

Nice! Keep up the good work!

[@diribigal]

The text editor made me imagine (very bad) LLM-designed levels.

[@flabort]

Can you elaborate what LLM stands for? My brain is at capacity for the day.

[@SomebodyHere-cm8dj]

​@@flabortLarge Language Model, I think

[@darkdwarf007]

I am eager to try out this editor of yours. I hope with experimenting I will have a more meaningful understanding about 4 spacial dimensions

[@Greywander87]

In 2D games we often use tilesets to paint maps from tiles. It's fast and easy to do, and while it does produce a distinctive "blocky" look that you wouldn't have with freehand drawn levels, you can mask that with having lots of different tiles that blend between two tile designs with diagonals or curves. Something I'd like to do at some point is expand this concept to 3D games using Minecraft-style blocks in lieu of 2D tiles. I think you could achieve a similar effect where it's quick and easy to build 3D maps with little to no experience, and certain tricks can be employed to make it look less blocky. But in theory, this concept should be extendable to an infinite number of dimensions. What you've done here probably makes more sense specifically for a golf game, but a "block" (hypercube) based map editor could be a more generalized solution for 4D games. That said, every additional dimension adds more complexity. 2D tiles are pretty simple. 3D blocks are more complex, and even Minecraft is more than just literal cubes. You can slice a cube up into different planes, including diagonal planes, in order to create slopes or stairs or other aesthetic pieces. Fences in Minecraft require a lot of slicing up of the block. You could have an outer layer with holes in it, like a metal grating, and an inner texture, such as circuit boards. Even just in 3D, there's a much larger potential to customize the look of a block compared to a 2D tile. Taking that to 4D gets exponentially more complex, though perhaps not insurmountably so. In the case of 3D blocks, you'll typically only design the top, bottom, and a single side, and then the three remaining sides will be identical to that one side. The same will often be true in 4D, since you still have a top and bottom. So a challenge to be sure, but if you're designing a 4D game then you're probably up for a challenge.

[@ThunderBlastvideo]

Duuude this is the coolest thing ever! I really want to buy this

[@Wulfstrex]

Do that on the 22nd of March then

[@dozerrrrr]

wtf.......... this guy has to be one of the smartest people on earth

[@FTUltra]

I can't wait till the speedrun community gets their hands on this game :D

[@VagabondTE]

Do you think you'll add any Putt-Putt style obstacles? Like a windmill that rotates in four directions?

[@liengandriod55]

I can't wait to make troll levels in this game.

[@o.o9709]

Imagine a level where you have to shift the dimensions mid air so that the ball can go through obstacles 💀

[@canalso5806]

unfortunetly you can only rotate the camera.

[@tonuka6257]

That's not how Golf works, the ball already shifts through dimensions when you hit it. You don't get to push it or hit it or shift it while it's moving

[@elnico5623]

I wish i had something like this when messing around with 4d blocks, best tool i had is a tool i made myself to create polyons and meshes

[@WaItasar]

Very interesting!

[@nnsnnisthegoat]

cant wait to see the recent tab

[@albertojuan4856]

So what I’m hearing is we are getting a Klein bottle level? Let’s goooo

[@mke344]

so cool brooo!!!

[@hamb0rgerrr]

Hi! This looks so cool. So hyped for this game! The level editor is such a fun feature and, if you could get it working on a server or something, a small golfing community could be formed. Though it depends on whether or not this game fits that kind of setting? (idk the right word for it)