A Beautiful Rabbit Hole Discussion With Jehovah's Witnesses (Part 1)

[@Terrylb285]

Eventually the goal is to get you out of the Bible and into their magazine’s. Your allegiance is to be to the organization.

[@jpnoobieeiboonpj858]

It really is! So glad to hear Rob is keeping Docs YT running.l! Such a blessing. Praise The Lord!!

[@rataroto3065]

That was with out a doubt the most peculiar JW I've ever heard.

[@busfeet2080]

It’s always a good day when SA uploads

[@undevelopmentteam]

For me, if anyone is big into eschatology or versed in Biblical Greek, then I would be fascinated with what they have to say. More so to have a conversation with them. I've hit a sort of block with my study while I try to understand the psychology of certain beliefs and why some people don't accept new information.

[@firstnamelastname3280]

if youve spoken to 1 JW, youve spoken to every JW on the planet. Their positions on the bible are given to them and their positions dont change unless theyre commanded to by the elders

[@StudiesOfTheAncientNearEast]

Hey Rob, would you consider another interview with Jeffrey Rose? I find his work very interesting.

[@lilofee27772]

In general I would claim that the "theology" of the JW is void as they are Arians, not Trinitarians...

[@ПавелВойтко-п7в]

Could you provide link for Craig Keener's lecture from 40:30, please?

[@marcialawrence7512]

Since Jesus made it clear that God does not intend to reveal the day or the hour, why are some so obsessed with these calculations and predictions? It is clearly Ungodly. 'WATCH AND PRAY FOR YOU KNOW NOT THE DAY NOR THE HOUR.'

[@Jlmapologist]

3:42 I mean, grammatically we understand how 'prototokos' is being used here along with the Context usage. The argument follows the fact that the general use of the term prototokos infers the subject is part of the group they’re in. Look at the LXX and usages of the word, even when the word is used in the sense that the subject has the firstborn pre-eminence rights, that person always belongs to the group that they're firstborn of; the partitive genitive isn’t only based on the grammar but based on all the examples of the LXX and how the word is generally used. So, the question is, how is it possible Jesus has the term firstborn applied to him in relation to the group of creation unless he himself is part of creation; we must remember prototokos can’t be translated as 'preeminent' but only firstborn, it’s just that being firstborn comes carries certain positions of pre-eminence. Paul could have used the word prōteuōn as he did in Col 1:18, a term with no real baggage, instead, he used a word that always subjects its recipient as a member of the group.

[@SentinelApologetics]

I'm sure you've seen Heiser's engagement of Colossians 1:15 in his Naked Bible Podcast #227: nakedbiblepodcast.com/podcast/naked-bible-227-colossians-113-20/ Here's the NLT's dynamical translation that communicates the Greek accurately: _Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation, for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see-such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him. He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together. Christ is also the head of the church, which is his body. He is the beginning, supreme over all who rise from the dead. So he is first in everything. For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross._ There's nothing in the larger context of vv. 16-20 that requires the Son to be ex-nihilo created in v. 15, quite the contrary.

[@Jlmapologist]

@@SentinelApologetics It's certainly not Creation Ex-Nihilo whatsoever. Keep in mind that the Father emanated Christ out of himself and his own nature. Now regarding how most biased Translations render v. 15 is based on what we see afterwards yet we know that there is a fundamental difference between being the creator and being the one through whom all things were made. Passive and active is the difference. The Father possessed the power, Jesus did not. In either case, it still isn't a problem for us because we still believe Jesus can reflect all God's qualities, he is the image of the invisible God, his copy. The term ‘all things’ has exceptions most of the time and isn’t necessarily all inclusive, you can see Col 1:20 to demonstrate this (Satan is the obvious exception to what’s said in v20 despite the use of “all things”) as well as Heb 2:7,8 and its use of all things applied to mankind (God and the angels are unspoken exceptions, despite the use of strong all-incluside langauge). Jesus is the exception to Col 1:16-17 based on the immediate context, namely, that he’s mentioned as part of creation in Col 1:15. I'll take a look on Heiser's View of Col 1:15, however, if this is basically how the usage of prototokos has developed within time, it's going to be very semantical, yet we must acknowledge in what sense it's appropriate to its usage accurately. But again, the usage of firstborn and the partitive genitive aspect isn’t solely dependent on grammar but on context and how the word is typically used and the connotations it dumps on any given subject. If we look at the LXX and the way it uses the term firstborn the subjects are always part of the order their firstborn of. You will typically say the term applied to Christ in Col 1:15 is stressing his preeminence but the important point to remember is that irrespective of Paul’s thoughts and intention when using the word, the word remains as ‘firstborn’, it can mean firstborn in the sense of preeminence but the word can only be correctly translated as ‘firstborn’. The question this demands is what does it mean to be ‘firsborn’ of something, again, every biblical example shows that to be the ‘firstborn’ of something means you are either eldest member or most preeminent member of the group you are part of, there is no example in the LXX, OT, or NT where someone is called firstborn without them being part of the group.

[@Thedisciplemike]

St Paul tells us why Christ is Prototokos of Creation: because in Him all things were made. Not that Christ Himself was made, but rather that He is our Firstborn, the Greatest of Us, for all things were made in Him, on heaven and earth. He Himself can't be created if all things were created in Him.

[@Jlmapologist]

@@Thedisciplemike Well as I mentioned previously that the surrounding context of v. 15 is taken to be Passive and not meant to be Christ set as the Sole of creation. Grammatically that is incorrect! It's consistently shown that Jesus had a role in YHWH’s creative acts, we believe that Jesus was the being whom the Father created through, this is clear by 1 Cor 8:6 and Hebrew 1:1,2 which both have the Father as the source of creation, and Jesus the being whom the Father created through. The Father was alone, he then created Jesus (his firstborn of all creation Col 1:15), and then went on to create all (other) things through Jesus; 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:1,2, John 1:3, Col 1:16-17.

[@Thedisciplemike]

@Jologos Firstborn of all creation does not mean that the He is created. The surrounding context literally proves that incorrect. Grammatically speaking as well. He tells you what he means by "Firstborn of creation" in the next sentence; "for in Him all things were created." The word "other" doesn't exist in the text, and to insert it is both disingenuous, misleading, and displays a lack of knowledge of the Greek. He is Creation's Firstborn, just as He is Death's Firstborn. Not in the sense as He is the first one to die, but rather in the sense that Death owes all that it has to Christ, just as creation owes all that it has to Christ. Read the context. Tell me why St Paul starts talking about a metaphysical reality all of a sudden

[@Thedisciplemike]

Great discussion my bro. One small point of correction; 'Thanatos' in Greek is death, not 'Thanos'. But the point you make is true; death itself is sacrificed

[@FIRE0KING]

Their intro is normal cult behavior. They have work books on how to approach christians or whoever. The mother God cult I thought were JW or Mormon at first, then they started talking about Mother God. They go through your bible and show you stuff and if you arent familiar with the text, it can be very effective.

[@nowandafter3258]

💰JW💰