A Christian says Suffering is Good Actually, A Heathen Responds

[@otterheart3844]

This was wonderful as always. As a former christian I remember feeling horrible guilt that I wasn't suffering enough. No matter if I was having a hard time I'd know there were people who had it worse and feel like I should be suffering more. To add I can't tell you the number of women in clearly abusive marriages I've heard told that they must stay and take it and by their love "save" their husbands.

[@WolfTheRed]

Even as a kid I HATED that. So much. I'm sorry you were made to feel that way. Im glad you're here now though.

[@animicat6688]

I've had this same rhetoric used against me as well when I was achild and even now about my emotionally manipulative and abusive father. It's so horrible and confusing I'm just glad that was able to be stubborn for the most part. I hope youre in a better place now

[@Aliakai]

I've always taken issue with this same rhetoric. As someone who has suffered immensely through my life, suffering is never a gift. You might rationalize it later with the things you learn from it, especially if the suffering is due to a mistake you made rather than something that simply happened to you. The idea of suffering as a gift hurts EVERYONE. Nothing that happened to me growing up should EVER happen to anyone. Most of the "lessons" I've learned from it messed me up more than the events themselves. Trauma bonding often can cause even more pain for both parties than simply caring for each other through normal channels would. No one should ever be forced to keep an abusive person in their lives, period. Ever. Great work Wolf. Tackling these topics is essential so the community can move forward from the toxic parts of many of our former faiths.

[@WolfTheRed]

Thank you Ali. I had you in mind when I was writing this.

[@nosmoke247]

It's not the suffering part. It's the trust in CHRIST period. An how you look back when HE alone was there with you. Hence JOB from the Bible. Don't attempt to twist words you don't comprehend. Every sheeple claims wolf now eh?

[@natasham1684]

@@nosmoke247 I think Christs’ suffering just gave Christians the message that they are entitled to have others suffer on their behalf. You’re not talking to the ignorant here, guy.

[@nosmoke247]

@@natasham1684 actually your ignorance is obvious miss. The obvious point... Can tell you've never even read a Bible, yet utter hate.👏💯😲🙌📜

[@mgtmoviemaker]

When I was still a member of the church people used to either tell me that my neurological injuries were "Gods plan", "a test" or that I had brought it on myself somehow by upsetting God or not believing enough. It was painful and awful and did a number on my self esteem. I have 24/7 pain and when you're learning to deal with that hearing "this is a good thing" or "God wants this" or "you deserve this" is the worst thing to say/do. Suffering happens but it's not some great lesson or some God's plan or some way to bring us blessings. This type of thinking leads to a lot of harmful behavior, actions and thoughts. I'm glad you spoke out against it and gave solid arguments and reasoning for your thoughts.

[@WolfTheRed]

The "gods plan" BS made me Sooo mad as a kid. I'm sorry you dealt with that.

[@quasi8180]

I hate that argument. Christians care more about the afterlife and suffering for jesus instead of making life better for all of us. Its insane. I feel like the gods understand us and habe been through more humanlike struggles than the christian god could ever know they want us to learn from their mistakes which could be the reason the mythology is so dark. Suffering is not the answer to our problems. The gods love a good party and love to laugh. I think they are trying to teach me to laugh more instead of being so depressed all the time especially Odin suprisingly but with christianity its like you could never be sad or anxious but with the gods they get it.

[@Threetails]

Some disconnected thoughts: *I heard an anecdote that Mother Theresa once told a man dying in great pain that his suffering was Jesus kissing him. To which the man, having none of that bullshit, said "Then tell your god to stop kissing me!" *I am reminded of a Friedrich Nietszche quote (Nietszche being well-known for his opposition to Christianity on a philosophical level): "Friends are made through shared joys, not through shared sufferings. *In Buddhism there is a doctrine that says that while suffering is inevitable, it is not good and it is something we have a moral duty to stop. *I think where Christianity got it twisted was during the early development of Christian stoicism under the persecutions of Nero. The sentiment that "we must endure suffering in the short term so that we can attain a long-term victory" became baked into Christianity when they believed they would live to see the return of the Christ. When that did not transpire, the attitude remained because it at least allowed them to last long enough to become a state religion. The attitude allowed them to become powerful by giving the bishops a blanket excuse to do whatever they had to do to keep Christianity alive and in absolute supremacy, but in preserving it all these thousands of years it just corrupted the moral fiber of Christianity.

[@WolfTheRed]

Those are good thoughts.

[@utardaheidinn9048]

BEHOLD! An offering to the algorithm! May this video reap a good harvest!

[@WolfTheRed]

Thank you!

[@katscott2217]

I’ve always disagreed with that,”All part of Gods plan.” Someone told me that my friends death in a freak accident was God’s plan. It left her 10 year old motherless. No it isn’t. My personal suffering wasn’t meant to happen either. Thank you for making this video, Red.

[@ChoKiba]

This was really well-put-together. That video was just... terrible. It hurt in a way that I haven't hurt in a while. I felt offended and neglected like I haven't since I was a Christian. So knowing that there are people like you and like the Hold who know this is all bullshit and who stand up for those who have experienced this. Thank you, sincerely and from the bottom of my heart.

[@WolfTheRed]

I got your back.

[@irelegion9766]

"Maybe the pastors..." *Hard riff ensues* *Grabs spear and shield* We're going to ... Oh, music relaxed. I'll just hold these here then. In all seriousness though, I very much agree. My mother loves to say everything happens for a reason. I've told her several times that's BS. We find a reason why things happen. We give meaning to our past, and hopefully learn from it. Hopefully it makes us, and our lives better. But that doesn't mean it had to be there for us to grow. We could have learned so many less traumatic ways than pain and suffering. Thank you for putting this out there. I'm glad to have watched it and hope little think a little more critically of what they say. *Clambers up in armor and trudges back to the hold*

[@WolfTheRed]

I had a lot of fun with the music. And yeah I hated that BS growing up as well. One of the many things that never sat right with me as a kid.

[@Readrose8]

I have explained this too to my Christian friends. They are just silent and start praying tearfully for their God to help me “see” I am both frustrated and sad for them. I love them dearly but they just can’t see.

[@Svartalf42]

Gorgeously put Wolf. This disgusting sentiment is one heard too often, and I always appreciate a well worded explanation of why it is such a problem.

[@WolfTheRed]

Thanks a lot Wom. That means so much.

[@lexy5661]

Yeah no....the suffering that comes with depression is not a gift. And definitely doesn't make me feel like a part of a community 😅 I'll fight anyone on that. Ableist narrative bs. Great video Wolf 🐺

[@WolfTheRed]

Thanks Alexa!

[@LadyMoonKittie]

When I was still active Christian, my first ex husband was mentally, verbally, and emotionally abusive, and any time I tried to talk to clergy, or seek help, even to the point of calling 911 because the ex had threatened to shoot himself and he was put into a mental hospital, I was told to go back to him by aforementioned clergy. It wasn't until he raised his clenched fist at me, that I told him to get out, and I wanted a divorce.

[@WolfTheRed]

I'm so so sorry you dealt with that.

[@qiae]

Having grown up in a progressive christian church that didnt use this kind of rhetoric and didnt speak of hell, i am consistently horrified when i see the ways that other groups use the religion to inflict and perpetuate incredible amounts of harm

[@ragingwitch8875]

Wolf bringing the spice

[@percyj2463]

*SaltBae enters* No SaltBae, I want spice, and no salt is not a spice!

[@WolfTheRed]

AWOOOO!

[@Sakuraclone99k]

It was always aggravating to be told I was being tested by god. That my resilience was measured by a deity that always seemed to want more proof of my strength. The more things that happened, the worse off the trauma was, as I felt I wasn't being enough. "God's Plan" was apparently shit for a lot of us. People who have survived terrible events, who have to battle their pain daily whether physical or mental, and/or have situations that cause them terrible pain do not OWE shit to a deity that sees that as good. No one deserves to serve a god that causes suffering "out of love". No one deserves abuse. Love you Wolf for standing up for us. AAWWOOOO!

[@WolfTheRed]

It never made sense and it never has.

[@leadslinger49]

When I was a child my mom talked of Brownies and Elves. I was lucky. I'm 72 now and I still (secretly) make offerings to the Spirits daily. My son is the only one who knows.

[@WarriorWitchNike]

Ugh that slow spin up to the sky was beautiful

[@WolfTheRed]

I love my camera so much.

[@VatnUlfr]

I feel like this weird suffering is a good thing partially comes from the world-denying ideas found in (some forms of) Christianity. Like what happens here (on earth) isn't even considered important so long as you get to heaven. So, we are all just gaslit into trying to celebrate suffering. I do believe suffering has to be accepted as a part of life (of course if we can stop it we absolutely should). It's just we don't have to look at it like a gift or something positive. It's something that simply exists and we need to do our best to lessen (for ourselves and others) and overcome. It's also really hard to grapple with the problem of suffering if you believe in one all-powerful completely good god. Suffering then has to become something inflicted by this god which leads to it be celebrated and situations where suffering is perpetuated because stopping it is then unimportant (or even going against God's will).

[@WolfTheRed]

I agree mate

[@VincentDeMontmirel]

Alright. So, I guess all of us who heard your call are invited to go to war against suffering, with all that it implies (building alliiances, picking our battles strategically, develop a deep understanding of the feilds, seeking methods which will actualy help, accepting one cannot do everything alone, etc.). I like this plan. I guess it is a good purpose to pick up if someone needs it.

[@WolfTheRed]

It's the Heathen way.

[@stevinhenrichs6146]

I think Christians are nuts when they teach that suffering is a good thing!! Thank you for this podcast. It was like listening to my father again. Thank you.

[@IkedaHakubi]

I asked about the Havamal too soon. Thanks Wolf!

[@WolfTheRed]

I gotcha covered!

[@NieroshaiTheSable]

Way too often, the church feeds its followers evil masked as holiness.

[@WolfTheRed]

It's the only way to control them.

[@nicolehunt6941]

So powerful! I loved your ending - we need to do what we can to end suffering. The masochism is a big thing that prompted me to leave Christianity.

[@WolfTheRed]

Same Nicole! I appreciate the kind words.

[@marocat4749]

And not the good roleplay masochism.

[@LirolMolky]

My aunt is this kind of Christian. She genuinely rejoices with news of climate change and people dying of heat or all the wars and disasters around the world, because she says that "Jesus is coming". I can't understand how someone who supposedly follows a god who says you should love everyone is capable of feeling so happy of the suffering of others. My brain just melts trying to understand her logic.

[@WolfTheRed]

It's so hard to have reasonable conversations with people like that.

[@emiliobustamante2401]

I’m not a Christian theologian but IMO This all just stems from the logically untenable position of the ominopotent omnibenevolent omnipresent deity of the Abrahamic religions in the face of a world in which evil and suffering is ever present and in the great majority cases cannot be excused via the argument of free will - so we must arrive this conclusion that suffering is good to uphold the original thesis

[@WolfTheRed]

It's indefensible imo.

[@purpleicewitch6349]

For some of us life often is suffering, but that’s not a good thing. We all suffer in different ways and it is most often very isolating. When we come together to care for each other and collectively overcome suffering, that is what brings us together. I think Odin has much to teach us on this. He gave up an eye to drink from the wellmof wisdom, and while he is known ever since as one of the wisest of Gods, he also bears the scar of it. Some injuries (and illnesses) can’t ever be fully healed even if we learn something from them. Thanks for drawing attention to this, it definitely needs to be talked about more.

[@WolfTheRed]

Thank you for listening. I'm glad it helped.

[@nathanmauk9387]

Whatever one might think of Christopher Hitchens, he had a valid point about the exaltation of suffering in his book on Mother Teresa.

[@WolfTheRed]

She's the worst tbh

[@BlackFlagHeathen]

Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins are gross, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. And Mother Theresa was a garbage human.

[@duskh4ze]

Yes. All of this. So much yes.

[@WolfTheRed]

♡

[@jemsilver]

I would only suffer willingly to make Skadi laugh 🐐

[@WolfTheRed]

Hahahahaha

[@BlackFlagHeathen]

I saw the situation with that person who lost their FIL on Twitter. I can’t tell you how enraged it made me. Every member of the leadership of that cult should be held accountable for all the harm they do.

[@timhennessey7778]

Best video I have heard in a long time .. bravo!

[@beowulfodinson9230]

Being courageous isn’t never knowing fear. It’s looking fear in the eye and not backing down. Being tough is not never feeling pain. It’s the will to keep fighting, no matter how much it hurts.

[@davidjb20010]

Walk up to a homeless man and tell him his suffering is a gift and see what happens. You know what else is a gift? Being privileged enough that hunger pangs and mental illness seem that alien. That dudes never gone to bed for dinner for sure. Not to knock people who have been more fortunate, but when people say dumb shit like that I want to put my thumbs in their eyesockets. EDIT: Forgot to say you made a great video Wolf! Keep up the great work!

[@aalin5701]

Willingness to suffer for it is one of the things my Christian mun brings up as evidence for her faith. It must be true if people are willing to tortured rather than denounce it kind of thing. Her associating suffering with proof of faith is worrying.

[@WolfTheRed]

It's awful what they have done.

[@quasi8180]

My family is like this nothing comes before theyre God not even family. Me i will always put family first no matter what even if i hate them sometimes. No matter how much i want to get away from them if they need help Ill give it. I couldve had a completely new person as my roommate but my uncle and his wife were practically homeless and i needed help with rent so i said ok. My twin was broke so i offered to give her some change i normally get back from paying bills. But them they could never except me for being a trans guy and that is the one thing i want most from them.

[@zaymlsspam]

@@quasi8180 If you don't mind me asking was it worth it? I'm also a trans guy, but I'm planning on going out of the country for university. And once I leave I'm debating on cutting contact with most of my family. Don't get me wrong I love him so much but they're just so toxic. Do you have any advice you don't mind sharing?

[@quasi8180]

@@zaymlsspam dude if your family sucks and isnt kind to you or doesnt accept you cut them off theres no shame in that

[@zaymlsspam]

@@quasi8180 you know what, yea you're right. I guess I just wanted reassurance in what I wanted to do. Thanks man. Good luck with everything man.

[@tiralana8360]

Thank you for this Wolf. From the depths of my soul. I have so many feelings about the whole "suffering is beautiful" teaching and none of them are charitable. I needed this.

[@WolfTheRed]

I'm glad it helped.

[@tiralana8360]

@@WolfTheRed it really did. It goes so much deeper than many suspect because Conservative Christians, Baptists especially, work very hard to maintain that veneer of respectability. In a private Christian school I attended in Junior High they read stories from Fox's Book of Martyrs at morning service on occasion (w/o parental consent or knowledge). If you weren't on board with the message then you were outcast to the whole school, and I mean the WHOLE school. Teachers & faculty included. Suffering was inflicted if you were the weird kid. There's a reason I have hard feelings about that message. I've seen how cruel it makes people. People like you & Aliakai have had my back way more often and I love you all for that.

[@WolfTheRed]

Thank you for the kind words.

[@martialartess]

Absolutely great video! I can tell you put a lot of work into the script and music. Thank you for saying what never gets said. We needed to hear this.

[@WolfTheRed]

I try very hard. Thank you Carbuckle for the kind words.

[@celticcricket7388]

Amazing video as always. thank you

[@WolfTheRed]

Thank YOU Cricket!

[@oneeyedwilly8139]

I think pretty much any statement that says, life is (fill in the blank), is an over simplification that fails to address the scope and complexity of existence. Saying nothing at all says more than making those types of statements.

[@WolfTheRed]

I agree so much. Havamal 26 and 27 cover this exactly.

[@shadehalo2305]

I didn't realize how much this rhetoric clung to my brain until I watched this video. I grew up in an abusive household, while being in an evangelical church. I have been slowly healing from the damage done to me, which everytime I look at it is always seems to have another layer to it. Thank you for this video, this helped immensely in making me realize what next part of healing I need to do next, which will probably be really hard. Wish me luck with it, it will take me a while.

[@dindrane1]

Such a great video! Well said, every bit of it.

[@WolfTheRed]

Thank you very much!

[@AWindy94]

😭❤️ This was amazing 👏👏👏

[@WolfTheRed]

I'm so glad you enjoyed it!

[@marcrhodes-taylor5347]

lots of truth within these statements, let's hope that people actually listen and take it onboard

[@jenmqkeeper]

I remember even as a child growing up in Catholicism, thinking about the disconnect between suffering supposedly being good, but also that we were supposed to love and help our "neighbors". It was this sort of thing and others like it that caused me to quit that even before I had any idea I'd find my way to heathenry. I don't understand how so many Christians can just turn a bling eye to all the logical impossibilities of their faith structure. Doing all those mental gymnastics to somehow believe the three "omni" characteristics of their god while looking at how the world is is exhausting, and sometimes I still get incredibly angry when I think about it. Also the suffering that Catholicism actively causes with their "you are not worthy" and intense shaming aspects. Leaves me wondering if I would have had as many self-esteem issues without that. Certain it has had a negative effect on my mental heath. Anyway, thanks for the good video. I think it's good for me to keep processing these things so that maybe I can eventually let the anger go.

[@funnelvortex7722]

The "suffering" narrative is in a LOT of religions, not just Christianity, and is something that put me off of religion for years and YEARS. I'm only just now really starting to find out about Heathenry and it solves a lot of the problems I had with most "mainstream" religions out there.

[@keiler2330]

As someone who was born with a congenital heart condition, the idea that my suffering is a gift from God is abhorrent to me. I spent a good chunk of my childhood in hospitals, and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. It’s a gross, privileged, and ableist position to take that chronic conditions are somehow this divine gift. One of things that drew me to Heathenry is that there are Gods who have physical limitations, and that actually gives me comfort. I feel less broken than I did when I was a Christian. Thanks for the great response to this argument, Wolf!

[@SharkbaitBree]

The grass is so green and beautiful. Holy poop. Anyway, I always had issue with this as a Christian because... well I just hate to see people suffering or unhappy in any way. And it bothered me the way suffering is handled. "God sends you what you can handle." was another phrase said to me and in my little bubbly brain I was like "but... why?" Why would he want to push me into suffering for him so badly? I didnt want to be "a strong soldier in gods army". I just wanted to be Bree.

[@WolfTheRed]

That's the beauty of North Georgia! I can't wait for yall to see South ga

[@iainpearce6379]

Oh and did you know while I was commenting the video ended and an advert for a Catholic prayer app came on??? Sheeèsh

[@chickadeestevenson5440]

"Life is pain princess, anyone telling you different is trying to sell something."

[@thepaganpirate3528]

I hate their view on suffering so much, it’s made me so mad. I’ve been hurt by this view and by old friends because their Christian view of suffering being something that should be normal. It’s been the one thing that’s probably what pushed me away from Christianity the most.

[@WolfTheRed]

Same dude

[@Blackgerman1]

You’re videos are helping me take my path. This video sealed the deal. Thank you for your content!! Skål!

[@WolfTheRed]

Skal!

[@koh123453]

To stand by when someone is in need and to allow them to be swallowed by suffering in the name of anything at all is shameful. To claim it to be righteous is lights my heart ablaze. You were right; This one is spicy. Hail The Hold!

[@WolfTheRed]

100% you get it.

[@TaurusSystem]

We have been super busy and putting some personal time to therapy these last few weeks, but you are right on the dot about suffering is not welcome to be celebrated. We deal with a great deal of torment and problems in today's society and have been trying to push ahead every day one step at a time. Thank you for addressing this, Wolf. There's A LOT we relate to in this.

[@WolfTheRed]

Absolutely

[@hauntedherbivore5843]

This is a superb video and as someone who suffers from several chronic and mental illnesses, really hits home. As a former catholic, I still struggle with the guilt I was made to feel as part of that oppressive religion.

[@WolfTheRed]

I hate to hear that mate. Just know the Gods and your ancestors do not judge you or think you weak because of your struggles. You don't have to feel that guilt. I hope you are well.

[@crab-56AMAX]

I honestly think I needed to hear someone else say it.

[@WolfTheRed]

I got you man.

[@zacharycollis5570]

Wolf The Red, thank you for the content that you are providing, amongst many others. I am new to this path and greatly appreciate the eye-opening views that you and your fellow Heathen’s are able provide to us. As a former Southern Baptist myself, your video has navigated me and I’m sure other’s as well to the issues we have seen in our past within Christianity. This was an amazing reminder to myself personally to many issues that I witnessed first-hand within my early years as a human. The emotions and comments I felt/said to myself while watching this was an absolute reminder to the reasoning’s behind why I originally distanced myself amongst many other reasons to find my own path/way. I and many others appreciate your work along with your fellow Heathen’s. Take the hand of the god’s and goddess’s and let them to continue to guide you brother. Skål

[@TheUltrabeast55]

I grew up with church-lite, I am familiar with the stories and the teachings but they were more worried about buts in the seats than being so dogmatic. I feel for all who have been exposed to these ideas. So damaging. Thanks for another great video.

[@WolfTheRed]

Thank you for your perspective. Yeah I went to a church like that. It wasn't so bad but still had its failings.

[@mz.6109]

I agree 100% with you and I too was raised christian and only as an adult was able to break free and become the Norse pagan I am today. We must keep reaching out to other folk and never let the dogma of others limit how far we advance in our own walks.

[@river8783]

You could do a whole omnipotent beard episode about christianity and abuse apologetics. Great video.

[@WolfTheRed]

We really could.

[@carmensavu5122]

Yes, please!

[@Asatruamerican]

Wolf I really appreciate you speaking out on these things brother. You said you were raised Southern Baptist so I wanted to let you know that I would like to talk to you sometime about this because I was raised pentecostal christian, went through a christian ministerial course and was an evangelist for over 5 years and even a pastor of a church for a little while. So to make a long story short that we can talk about later if you want, over time and several discussions and arguments with my Heathen son and while traveling as an evangelist seeing first hand so much hypocrisy and "robbery" of the people I eventually converted to Heathery. I've been on the Heathen path for around 5 years now and it's totally changed my life for the good. It's also hard for me to believe how I was blinded by what my son's and I call "The Biggest Lie in History"... Christianity!

[@Asatruamerican]

I can shed a lot of truth about many false teachings and practices about things in the church world!!!

[@TheEvergladesErgi]

Hey, had a playlist of your stuff going on in the background while editing and this came on. Wanted to say thank you for making this boss. Even outside of the Christian rhetoric about suffering, people love to wax poetic about how "There can be no joy without sorrow, nor peace without strife" *insert Glade's snooty academic voice here*. And as someone who lives with a good deal of chronic pain and multiple SPMI's, this kind of thing always angered me. I genuinely feel sorry for the folks who think its true. Growing up as a Roman Catholic, the term Agape had never come up, rather, we had the words of one St. John Vianney, saying "in order to get to Heaven, we must suffer" and "Look at the saints; when they were not persecuted, they persecuted themselves." Its fucked up and perpetuates self-harm as well as abuse from others. This video was a little before my time in the community, and I am glad to have seen it today. Awoooo

[@WolfTheRed]

Awoooooo! ♡

[@electricmayhem8147]

Been watching all your and ocean's videos. hope you are continuing.

[@WolfTheRed]

Been working on things in the community server (like UPG nights and hang outs) but I'm about to start making videos again.

[@grell5108]

4:13 sheesh! Sounds like Grandfather Nurgle has some influence here... "Accept his gifts and gain insight" and all that

[@samanthacenters6081]

New to the channel and I must say this is one of the very most understanding things that I've seen and can see at how things are twisted and turned and he has very well worded it

[@WolfTheRed]

Welcome to the channel and I'm glad my words helped.

[@plurally]

I was plenty alone during the ~20 years that my treatment resistant depression went unchecked, because the Christians around me were uncomfortable with it or emotionally incompetent or considered it an inconvenience to *them*. The Pagans I spend my time with now (primarily Reconstructionists or Recon adjacent) can look at my suffering without flinching and at least console me, even if they can't take it away, because they believe I deserve better. I know who I'd rather be around.

[@WolfTheRed]

The arbitrarily dealt out "support" from Christians is usually just "pray about it and give it all to him" and oh boy is that a big nothing burger.

[@Offgridheathen]

That was really good Wolf!!! I've never used Discord, how do I find you there,so we can have a chat?I can definitely relate and ride bikes also.

[@WolfTheRed]

There's a link in the description!

[@Silvertongue123]

Just today my uncle was complaining about LGBTQ people like me being granted safe havens in some states.

[@WolfTheRed]

I'm really sorry to hear that. 😔

[@Silvertongue123]

@@WolfTheRed thanks Wolf the red it' drives me nuts when he goes on homophobic rampages like that knowing some of our family is gay I'm LGBTQ as well but I have to tiproe around him.

[@djbeserkairsoft]

Hey wolf i love how you and ocean do your videos i fell into paganism because i felt a real spiritual connection to it but even though im reading the sagas and other i don't quite understand the afterlife could you do a video of the different halls we go to after death.

[@joshuareynolds7982]

I remember when I was a child in church, it was a cult but obviously as a child I didn’t know nor did I understand the men and women were separated and we went to Sunday school and it was… different saying that when we ask for help on something from god if we didn’t receive the help we needed it’s because someone needed it more, or our pain were tests of faith to him to just keep believing. And unfortunately at a young age these things were just burned into your brain. And it screws you up, well it did me anyway and in church half the time we’re weren’t welcome due to how I or my brothers “didn’t connect with the lord” as the other children did and so forth. All I have to say is, all the pain and mental suffering I went through when I was younger didn’t feel like a test of faith, but a test of how much pain can I be given till I crack. Thank you wolf! Love your videos man

[@DrDino123]

Amazing video Wolf!

[@WolfTheRed]

Thanks mate

[@Readrose8]

They genuinely think it’s good and are so deeply in that mentality- they don’t even see how dark a place they’re in. I pity and hurt for my Christian friends in this.

[@realityhelix564]

I was a neurodivergent girl from a poor family in a Mormon-adjacent faith. I'm sure everyone here can do the math.

[@WolfTheRed]

I'm really sorry you went through that. I hope things are better now.

[@realityhelix564]

@@WolfTheRed They never quite managed to get a leash on my agency, so as soon as I grew up and realized there were options, I saw myself out. Kinda wish I had that childhood back, but I was fortunate in a lot of other ways.

[@marocat4749]

No one can turn back time, but a happy forward❤

[@missZoey5387]

I had a teacher my senior year at the Christian school I went to that my cystic acne was part of God's plan in someway. *cystic acne is a form of acne that goes deep into the skin and can be very painful, leaving permanent scars*

[@WolfTheRed]

I'm sorry they told you that. I hope you know it's not true today.

[@missZoey5387]

@@WolfTheRed Oh I don't believe that, never did, but it did strike home.

[@trevorlamb9749]

Have to justify suffering so that the 10% or whatever the money you must pay to the church makes more sense, when your priest drives a Bently and you have to take the bus to work. (Not always the case, but seen too many times in large religions)

[@BoboftheOldeWays]

I think this was one of your best videos. Wish I'd made it.

[@WolfTheRed]

I think this is my best work so far personally.

[@CreedsofYore]

Not the same context, but same mindset - once when talking to my step father about the horrific conditions that some animals live in for the entirely of their short lives, his response was "At least they had a chance to be born." WHAT?!?! Sure, being born into immense physical pain and squalor from the moment you are born until you die....is such a gift. 🙄

[@alanna7196]

I was told my SA happened because I wasn’t Christian enough

[@brianketaren5132]

Great video ☺️👏

[@WolfTheRed]

Thank you Brian!

[@brianketaren5132]

@@WolfTheRed you're welcome 😊👍

[@iainpearce6379]

This individual in the video would probably agree with what I was constantly told *God only takes the good* when id ask why horrendous people are free to kill amd maim whereas people i knew and cared for would die of horrible illness,,,so o totally get where your coming from,,btw new subscriber and liking what I see (ps whats your bike amd what are the lil silver symbols inside the fairing??)

[@doofinpuss23]

It was that kind of rhetoric that drove me away from Christianity. Having my best friend (now former) tell me that God gave me my disability for a reason (I have a mild case of cerebral palsy) he looked me dead in the face and told me I should be glad fmor it. It definitely didn't make it better that we were only like 13 at the time

[@rebeccahahn6172]

"Suffering is the glue"... bro needs to stop freakin' sniffing it then. Just listening to that gave me nausea. "Suffering is good" BS is why my abusive mother and grandmother never got help for our shared reproductive problems. All of my mother's guilt and shame at her miscarriages spilled downward onto me. As a child and teen, I was never good enough and could never live up to all of those expectations. It's impossible to live well enough to replace 5 dreams that never came true. The migranes I developed at a specific point in my cycle were something I just had to put up with. I wasn't allowed to even ask my doctor about them. Terrible periods, anemia, doubling over in pain were just me being dramatic, weak, and not good enough. And I internalized that. I had no identity that wasn't trying to live up to an impossible standard and never act like something was wrong. So, now that my grandmother is dead, my mother can suffer alone. I choose neither suffering nor enjoying it when I see it in another. I'm a better person than she could raise me to be.

[@electricmayhem8147]

way to stand up for yourself and heal.

[@chrisrobison9546]

Awesome brother

[@thetraveling-cowboy]

What’s funny is agape doesn’t come around in the Christian world until c.1600 so this is obviously a later addition to the faith which fits in well with that time in world history just like Eros (God of love or the loving God) didn’t come about until the 13th century. Life IS pain but we are supposed to do what we do if we hit out hand with a hammer..recoil and do our best to not repeat the action that brought the pain in the first place. Agape originated as the name of the last meal of Christ and then later changed so as to make it easier to walk away from their fellow Christians that are suffering. A great example was a great friend of mine who was Christian was forced to live in his car while his wife and kids moved into his MIL’s home. Many of his “friends” from church wanted to pray for them but noone offered help and they all had homes with plenty of room (5-6 bedroom homes). My wife and I took him and his family in and he has become a dedicated Heathen bc he saw the writing on the wall.

[@flyfamille5671]

One I had a particularly hard pain flair that my GP didn't took seriously BC Christian. I got told to think of.the torture of Christ . My answer was he suffered for 3 day's. It's been over a year so don't try to compair the 2. Let just say that plus being pro choice basically got me out of said church 🤣

[@WolfTheRed]

That GP should be fired.

[@lilykatmoon4508]

Yes! I had negative interactions being raised Catholic that had twisted my self image and only believed what I believed because I feared eternal death, not because I believed in any of it. I’m in my 50s and have been adrift spiritually for much of my adult life. I’ve made my way slowly to Heathenry over the past three years since Covid hit (the unintentional spark that lit my journey on my pagan path). It just occurred to me that perhaps Loki was involved- that agent of chaos- something meaningful has come out of that darkness, perhaps? Ive also become more concerned with progressive issues over the years. I was an educator who started out with belief in the system. But the population I worked with slowly opened my eyes to my privilege and has drastically changed my politics. However, I’ve not found a way to merge these or do anything with these two passions in any meaningful way due to my own traumas I’m dealing with. I’m feeling very inspired by this whole series I’ve been binging for hours. Thank you for sharing!

[@marocat4749]

If i would take anything put of suffering injustice or just unlucky things its not a gift, its just a motivator to have as few prople else going through the same again. If in an ideal world were no suffering, we would be fine. Its terrible too for mental health that it just fosters the "you dont deserve that" or insecurities. And change the systemic issues that cause suffering as goal. Its also yes about not wanting change.

[@WolfTheRed]

Absolutely.

[@hold_the_mike]

I am going to preface my comment by saying I know that this is going to be a bit out of context, but related. To me- my opinion- is I feel suffering is a large part of my life. I feel that the way I live my life requires suffering to progress. I primarily mean in a certain set of fields. I suffer by putting myself into specific situations that will make myself more mentally or physically tough. I feel that those are very important things to me so I CHOOSE to suffer. To say that a religion requires suffering and that all suffering is good is abusive and brainwashing rhetoric. I choose to put myself in the situations I put myself in. I choose to suffer because I want to come out stronger on the other side and to be prepared for suffering that I don't choose. Disabilities and other things that cause unchosen suffering are no joke, and when Christians use that to say God works in mysterious ways and all that, it is complete by. I love your video, Wolf. This was very well put together!

[@Nonameisback999]

Suffering maybe a part of life, but just because all people suffer doesn't mean we can't stop that suffering. The pagan view towards suffering is IMHO is that while suffering in this world is common, it should never be deified. We should take the good parts of life above all else, cherish them, and most importantly work to decrease the suffering we feel in life. We should never take comfort in our traumas or the fact that everyone else feels the same misery we do, as if we do, we become monsters ourselves.

[@WolfTheRed]

Agreed mate.

[@matthewnord6614]

That's why I left Christianity and became a Norse Pagan

[@ZelphTheWebmancer]

This rhetoric shares the same idea of trauma/pain making us stronger. Which is not true. We become stronger to endure the pain or to avoid future pain, but pain itself always makes us weaker. Great video, it is something really important to talk about.

[@dyan1471]

that person wearing a crop/wind blown top on a bike at 11:45. while sexy not great on a bike. The pavement does not care how hot your abs are it will take them away faster then an McDonalds diet.

[@WolfTheRed]

Haha that's my brother. He's young. He'll learn one day.

[@DoubleBlindJinx]

I know I’m late to the party, this is an older video…. but I grew up Jehovah’s Witness. I wonder if that was the religion you referenced re: your friend parents blood transfusion. That religion did its best to destroy me. I am just now really sorting through trauma. But I am managing well, and the old Gods are holding me tight. Thank you for your content, brother, it is invaluable🖤

[@WolfTheRed]

I'm glad it's helping

[@angryunicornproductions2633]

Its sad that people view life that way

[@WolfTheRed]

I wish they could see a healthier viewpoint.

[@therealivydawg]

I'm a atheist curious about your religion. I came across wisdom of Odin and watched a few of his videos and I couldn't put a finger on it but something didn't feel right, and then I watched your video with ocean then it made sense.

[@MattyRlufc]

It depends. Don't think the take "all suffering is bad" is any better than "all suffering is good". If a loved one dies, grief is a natural and healthy part of coming to terms with that loss. Negative emotion can be destructive when it takes over just as positive emotion can be. But that's surely distinct from people essentially going out of their way to cause suffering or not mitigate it on the basis that it's good for you.

[@rbgg2010]

I had a conversation with someone, a Christian, on twitter the other day and I presented him with a thought experiment. Basically, if he could choose between the reality he currently believes in, which is one where most people will end up suffering eternally in hell, or a reality where everyone gets to be eternally happy, which would he choose. He waffled around a bit, but finally admitted that he would keep things the way the are, because to do otherwise would be to blasphemously imply God's design wasn't good enough. In other words, when given a choice between suffering for most and happiness for all, he chose suffering. I think suffering is the biggest problem Christians, and any monotheist who believe in a 3xOmni God, have to deal with. And I think the guy from twitter and the guy from this video are great examples of the most toxic way of dealing with it, which is to simply embrace and/or justify it...

[@carmensavu5122]

When I hear of people putting themselves through ordeals in a Christian framework, it turns my stomach. But when I hear of people putting themselves through the same ordeals in a BDSM framework, I just shrug, I don't get the same reactions of indignation and disgust. I thought about it for a while before I reached the conclusion that it all has to do with how pain is understood in a particular worldview. The Christian outlook on pain is accompanied by guilt and self-loathing. Just ugh!

[@rbgg2010]

@@carmensavu5122 To me it's about desire and consent. A BDSM couple desire and consent to the pain inflicted upon them. But in the the Christian framework we're forced into an existence of suffering by a being who could, if they wanted, have created an existence without suffering...all without our consent or any concern for our desires! And in my opinion, inflicting needless suffering on anyone other than a willing masochist is simply abuse. That's why it turns my stomach!

[@carmensavu5122]

@@rbgg2010 Well said.

[@Silvertongue123]

Man I hate love the sin hate the sinner it's completely bogus

[@davidlester1308]

Suffering is not something that is positive. Can you learn stuff from it? Sure. I'd rather not have to learn those lessons in the first place. I can be alive and enjoy existence without suffering. That video is massively weird, bruh.

[@WolfTheRed]

So weird. I had to watch it a few times when I found it.

[@j3tztbassman123]

Can there be an immunization against arthritis?? Pointless pain, inflicted on others for "reasons" is frankly sadistic and should stop! The Gods have seen fit to educate me on some of that, this is not the venue for further discussion. Suffice to say what I've learned leaves a foul feeling about me, that doesn't wash off.

[@n3v3rm0r3]

🖖

[@WolfTheRed]

💪💪🤘

[@endymion30]

Suffering is a natural part of life, but never a gift This is why i think god needs to get off his ass and deal with his toxic children and leave us alone

[@Silvertongue123]

It's like when parents beat their children and go it hurts me more than it hurts you I do this cause I love you nonsense.