A conversation with M. James Penton (Watchtower historian, author and former elder)

There are few bigger names in ex-Jehovah's Witness literature than Marvin James Penton, a professor emeritus of history at the University of Lethbridge whose books on the Witness movement have established themselves as the definitive guide to Watchtower history.
I had the great honor of interviewing Jim and learning firsthand the story of his escape from the Witnesses during the infamous apostate purge of 1980. We also shared our ideas on the current state of the ex-JW movement - in particular the need for more fairness, compassion and accuracy in criticizing the Watch Tower Society and its leadership.
I can highly recommend the following books by Dr Penton:
Apocalypse Delayed www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Del...
Jehovah's Witnesses and the Third Reich www.amazon.com/Jehovahs-Witne...
Support me on Patreon: / cedars
Follow me on Twitter: / cedarsjwsurvey
Buy my book, "The Reluctant Apostate": a.co/5qFN4JU
Leave a voicemail: www.speakpipe.com/cedars
Check out my t-shirt designs: teespring.com/stores/the-relu...

[@valerieacuff362]

Jim is a thoughtful and reasoning quality man. I have known Jim since the early 60’s. When I left the WT in 1984 Jim and his wife graciously met with me weekly for a year and deprogrammed the WT teaching I had sat under for 24 years. I am forever grateful to Jim and Ann for their kindness, their understanding, their tolerance and their patience with me. They truly changed my life.

[@mrsingsing5934]

Wow that must have been a amazing experience I would love to have the privilege of having conversation with him

[@thatguy8941]

Wonderful

[@Lovealwayswins1]

I love this interview thank you!

[@janedow9782]

An atheist interviewing a Christian. Both of them in favor of protecting the freedom of Jehovah's Witnesses. Both of them in favor of human rights and religious freedom. Amazing interview and discussion. Thanks

[@bosondas5374]

Hi

[@exjwfifth9838]

Trying very hard not to be a prisoner of the moment...that said I think this might be my favorite ExJW interview ever. Penton is an incredible person. So reasonable and committed to accuracy. I’m not sure anyone has articulated the plight of Jehovah’s Witnesses as well as this man. I think this is one of the strongest voices we have. Thanks for this Lloyd

[@LloydEvans]

Thanks my friend! It was an honor talking to him! :)

[@mt64qa]

I agree best interview ever

[@charlenewatkins9126]

Very nice and honest man ,what a concept with the Watchtower society,it was all smoke and mirrors and phony self righteous members ,living in a false ,hypocrite world.

[@laurelevans7198]

Charlene Watkins are you a former jw?

[@francesmartin2866]

I have been listening to angry, damaged ex witnesses who have helped me process, work through my ager. It is time to move on, get over it, life after watchtower. Intelligent, rational ,educated conversations as this, are what I need. Also, my JW friends will accept this opinion before that of a ranting, hate filled , wounded ex. Please continue.

[@charmainemarino4151]

His comment: "it was the most unloving place I had ever been in my life" REALLY TELLS ALL for me. Thank you Mr. Penton for the interview and sharing your background and insights on the WTBS/JWORG and thanks Lloyd for the content as well!

[@elguapo221]

It's all about the rules and obedience the love is just superficial and a show a sharade

[@yvonnebuckland4856]

Yea they got their fav ones mostly the ones with money lol

[@sundance8862]

Men like James are actually what I consider Elders. Not company men, rather, considerate men of faith that can be a benefit to those whose life they are part of. Not many men of his caliber around, sadly. Thank you for recording this for posterity.

[@franmorrison1080]

He studies the Bible for himself, as we are asked to do. Acts 17:11 "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." 1 John 4:1-5 New American Standard Bible (NASB) Testing the Spirits 4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.

[@danielkaranja7978]

An elder indeed

[@andrewbrouwer1746]

Control. That’s the underlying theme isn’t it?

[@Aiken47]

My Uncle was an elder, I used to have many discussions with him - he used to tread a fine line, ignoring the unqualified idiots, the company line and honestly tried to counsel people. He was my hero. Most elders are wolves in sheep’s clothing with every vice of personality as “benign”narcissistic traits

[@johngum7158]

Tears in my eyes as flashbacks of listening to RF come to mind. The courage of these men is indescribable. Thank you both!

[@ready2danceagain]

It is great to have a peek back in time from someone who actually experienced it. True history!

[@tidalpool1]

Mr. Penton and I share much. As a former JW, pioneer, congregation elder I was disfellowshipped in 1975. in theory, I was disfellowshipped for attending a costume party, where I dressed as a rock and roller. Factually, I was disfellowshipped for not assigning an elderly women (a professed member of the anointed)to my car when I was conducting the afternoon service meetings. She was the mother of my congregation overseer's wife and she was married to my district overseer. 9 pioneers were disfellowshipped on the same day. 5 were reinstated, 4 of we remaining ex-witnesses chose to say, 'no thank you.' my logic was that if one disgruntled wife could harm so many brothers and sisters with out any responsibility or even a public apology, that this was not the faith I wanted to bet my life on. I was 23 at the time I was removed, and was in college that fall. I earned my degree(s) and ended up practicing medicine. I still hold my belief in God, I do not however, need any group of people across the country to interrupt my relationship with my holy father.

[@Esther-1914]

The tongue can certainly be used as a weapon and a tool to create division, eh?

[@the22ndday]

This interview has brought tears to my eyes. I was not raised JW but I cannot appreciate enough the civility and fact finding journey of these two people.

[@teehee4343]

Brilliant, really interesting interview. Left nearly two years ago at age 61. Now studying history at university, and no, university is not full of satans spawn. Amazed by so many young people with their heads down and studying really hard. There is a very strong emphasis on developing analytical skills. Think about the motives of the author of any text. What's their agenda, if any? To coin a phrase, "make sure of all things". I agree with you Lloyd, we don't need a religious belief to be loving towards people. I found the most unloving people I've met have been those in the so called truth. The sneering expressions and frightening remarks made by Antony Morris are anything but loving

[@keineahnung74]

"Continue to be a moral person". I am a much better person now as an atheist. I really enjoyed the conversation.

[@dancingnature]

It’s never too late . Enjoy it there’s a video on KZbin of a woman in her 70s who wanted to be a ballerina as a child . She decided to do it . You can see her in the video on pointe. Same with college

[@janicehussock7735]

I found NO love in the Witnesses. The doctrines and culture make them so judgmental. They appear to never hear "Judge not, lest you best judged." I always wanted to do college. My teachers encouraged me so much. A good college teaches critical thinking skills. They teach that more than factual knowledge. Facts can be gathered It is training in the use of objective facts. My professors insisted that we read primary sources. The original documents before we read the secondary commentary. Few Witnesses read primary documents. I I was always impressed by the morality and kindness of most worldly people. They were better informed, kinder, and nicer to me and to others. Let the Governing Body sneer. Tights pants are no sin. Bethelites stood out in NYC by their weird dress. There was also something odd about how they held their bodies. I could always tell them on the subway even when I was not aware that I was near Bethel. Columbia University students study very hard. It is not a party school. There are some social groups. You cannot get a seat in a study hall at 1 am or 2 am because it is packed with students reading. My classmates were far more moral than Witnesses. It is funny because my Witness family was so skeptical of government and the Roman Catholic Church. Yet they just accepted whatever crap the Watchtower printed. Strange world.

[@franmorrison1080]

the primary document is the Bible, but its been interpreted so very differently by so many!!

[@andrewbrouwer1746]

You can do it. I now have a masters degree.

[@DoctorZaeus]

I really enjoyed this interview with James Penton. He has some outstanding insights. I especially liked his comment on the arrogance of the door-to-door work. And I have deep respect that he knew when to step back because he couldn't be objective.

[@thmpick]

I fell awake 3+ years ago. This is when I began viewing uTubes about the org. This is the best video I've seen on your channel, well done & Thanks!

[@DavidTaylor-ki2ir]

I find it interesting that an organization can be so quick to dismiss its own writings from 50-100 years ago as outdated but clings ridiculously to writings from thousands of years ago. And if divine inspiration is the distinction, were not the org’s early writings supposed to be guided by Holy Spirit, and if they weren’t, what were they guided by?

[@samgoget1914]

Interesting comment

[@mtmt4624]

Good point who where they guided by

[@1976HNRK]

"I find it interesting that an organization can be so quick to dismiss its own writings from 50-100 years ago as outdated" It is called rewritting history

[@sharonlarin]

I have asked the same question, if the governing body is inspired by Jehovah how do they make mistakes/changes regarding their beliefs, how can their dates be so often wrong, how could they have at one time celebrated Birthdays and Christmas and then all of a sudden those are pagan, if they do have the truth why are apostates to be feared...after all they have the truth on their side! If only they could think critically and not just repeat what is written in the Watchtower.

[@wakeupeople3773]

History in the making! I hope he lives another decade because he is so full of wisdom! Thank you Lloyd!

[@jah97302]

"Apocalypse Delayed" was the very first book that I read back in the early 1990s. Shortly after that I read Ray Franz's books. Foolishly I loaned both to a young JW woman who convinced me that she wanted to eventually leave. She didn't and I never got my books back. But eventually, I found replacements for both. I still read segments from both books from time to time and am amazed at how groundbreaking and important both books were (and still are). Mr. Penton is an interesting person and has so many wonderful stories and insight regarding the real truth about Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower leadership.

[@matthewreeves2847]

Excellent interview. I'm more inclined to buy one of Mr. Penton's books now that I've heard him speak. He seems like a kind, well spoken, highly educated person.

[@raymondsommerfeldt2817]

Yep and even Satan himself can make himself appear as an angel of light according to 2 Corinthians 11:14. Smooth tongued liars usually are-Serpent in Eden as an example.

[@matthewreeves2847]

@@raymondsommerfeldt2817 Sir, I don't care if I hear logical, objective truths from Satan himself, should such a being even exist. Facts are facts, doesn't matter who they come from.

[@Vukf1]

@@raymondsommerfeldt2817 and you dont need to look no further then governing body and all the "new light" aka satans teaching they give.

[@seeingpatterns7234]

Excellent interview. Fascinating to hear from someone with experience that goes very far back. Thank you.

[@RiaCottingham]

This is definitely the best interview of yours, in my opinion. What a wonderful guy ❤️

[@clarkgrayhame1250]

Excellent video John, I really enjoyed listening to this interview. Mr Penton thank you good sir for sharing your thoughts. You are a very educated and gentle man and I appreciate your take on this subject.

[@MileEndEst]

Apocalypse Delayed was the first "apostate" book I ever picked up. Thanks for such a great interview.

[@dontbeculty2117]

Really great to hear a new interview with Mr. Penton! Thanks to you both!

[@WitnessForJesus]

At last! A Christian being interviewed. What a lovely intelligent man. Great stuff

[@jimmyrodasmolestina979]

James penton and John cedars were persecuted just like Jesus

[@FeralTauryne]

I have no words for how much relief I have found with this interview. It is the first one I watch on your channel. I am blown away by all the people that have suffered what I have suffered in silence for many years. I look forward to watching more videos and finding the courage to finally actually tell my family, even though they know I have not attended the meetings or been active for about 15 years. I live in overwhelming guilt and fear of losing what little family I have left. Thank you for your work.

[@nickyannajones]

Same. My mother recently asked why I haven't returned. I haven't answered her yet but I've been an emotional mess because I am Dissed we barely speak and I KNOW that when I tell her my reasons she will see me as an apostate and turn away from me completely. It's like being Dissed all over again. I've been irritable, weepy and dealing with suicidal ideaology.

[@karenmunoz969]

Great interview. Mr. Penton is very articulate and nice. I was surprised to know he is a civil libertarian. Libertarians are with whom I share more points of view socially and economically. Anyways, what I like the most about your interviews is that you ask very relevant questions but you also allow the interviewed person to take his/her time to really answer. Thanks for your work and a hug from Colombia.

[@ravisoodi]

John, I’ve just come across your channel after having left the organisation two years ago and I must say, your articulate, measured and compassionate nature is nothing short of inspirational. So far removed from the bitter (albeit understandably so) manner in which most ex-JWs on this platform convey their messages. Jim has to be my fave interview of yours. What a guy. His thoughts at the end on how to deal with JWs was very refreshing. Keep up the amazing work. Your selflessness knows no bounds as we are all aware that with your intellect and charisma you could be making a fortune for yourself instead. This is in actuality doing life-saving work. Love from London X

[@user-wg7wk4mt4x]

THIS IS AMAZING! What a beautiful human Dr. Penton is, so clearly evident from this interview! My family moved to Lethbridge shortly after all this "apostasy" and disfellowshipping occurred. It was (is) legendary! He was spoken about like he was Satan himself; the entire family and group so demonized. By design, I successfully 'faded' a number of years later but am still very traumatized from 25 years in the cult- - - I always wondered about Dr. Penton and his family because what happened rocked the whole JW community citywide. The organization had to have been terrified of him and how he could disprove so much false doctrine. I cannot imagine what he and his family went through. Your conversation highlights what a kind, loving, smart, respectful, and decent man he is. SHAME on the entire vicous elder body of Lethbridge (do I ever want to name names here!), the CO, the GB, Brooklyn Bethel, and the entire WT society. Free at last and so thankful. Thank you Lloyd for this wonderful conversation. Your work is so, so important. And dear, dear, dear Dr. Penton - I wish I had known you - maybe one day! I wish you and your family well and all the very best. Thank you kindly for sharing your story.

[@rodywithers3536]

This is why I look forward so much to your videos Lloyd. Easily one of the very best interviews you have conducted. It helps that your interviewee, James Penton, is a genuinely thoughtful, fair-minded man with extensive knowlege and direct experience in Jehovah''s Witnesses. I particularly like the mutual respect you both showed each other - no enforced censoring or judging - even though you hold different views on some topics. You both came across as humble and dignified. I look forward to the upcoming book by Rudd Persson and James Penton and to more interviews with former JWs. Thank you again!

[@sisteray3539]

Brilliant interview Lloyd. Thank you for bringing such a fascinating person to our attention. Jim seems like a truly amazing man and I now have 2 more books to add to my reading list. Honestly, your channel gives me life 😊👍👍

[@HJockers66]

amazing how many deeply educational videos you are producing in these last weeks, apart from your authorship getting to be truly a fulltime job isn´t it. Been rewinding this one again and again, wonderful interview. Could listen to James all day and you are asking the right questions of course. I feel the whole interview has a deep ring of peaceful truth not hateful spite towards jw org , hoping that those still on the inside might find this appealing and open their hearts/minds. I can see how similar Ray Franz was to James in many ways of talking and their arguments, demeanor, reasoning, love for verfifyable truth. Very happy he agreed to be interviewed in this way, please express our deepest gratitude to him if you get a chance. Cheers

[@truthseekeratheist9105]

Fantastic interview. I’d love to talk with him about what made his family stay with Watchtower when so many Bible Students left Watchtower during Rutherford’s tenor. My family remained Bible Students loyal to CT Russell. I also wonder if he knew Andrew Horwood from Newfoundland and if he knew or was aware of Norman Woodworth. I’d like to get his perspective because I am fascinated with the evolution of the Watchtower. You talked about how it could transform in the future, but it’s a very different looking animal from the days of Rutherford and early days of Knorr and Franz. I think today so few know what really happened, and people who had links to the critical transitional periods are slowly passing away. I thought this was not only a great interview but also important to get to see someone who bridges the past and present. Thank you Lloyd one of your best!

[@sourcedrop7624]

I really appreciate James' point about how it's not just JWs but _everywhere_ that people are receiving biased info which can shape their worldview to the negative. Some exjw's feel that they are not normal and everyone else is. Not so! Everyone is being manipulated in one way or another. Part of being adults is being more aware of this phenomenon and taking appropriate steps to mitigate or eliminate this manipulation.

[@aliciamontero7061]

Sourcedrop Quite true. Not everybody matures to realizes it.

[@nightowl5028]

wow ! Thank you for this great video ! It's making me realize that so many of us, growing up JW's are being traumatized by this religion. Thanks for the encouragement !

[@krystalworld]

I could listen to Dr Penton all day. What a privilege to have watched this interview. Thank you, Lloyd. :)

[@saffronhammer7714]

Religion is not needed to live a loving and good life.

[@mbtofnj9180]

some people are naturaly nice and good. some have made drastic changes because of religion. learning what the Bible says have kept me from going astry even in the littiest wrong doing. and has made conscious of others and their feelings

[@saffronhammer7714]

Yes, there are good and bad people everywhere, in and out of religions. And I am glad that for you this book helps you live a good life. For myself, I know the Bible very well, having studied it and read it from cover to cover many times. The Golden Rule Jesus laid out = Loving others as myself is one principle that speaks to me as truth and has lead me to discard the Bible. My life is far happier and peaceful now.

[@julieestes6528]

Abigail Parker EXACTLY!!

[@michaelmartie6606]

I have a problem with organized religion, will never join one as the mostly serve a social function. But I feel my relationship with God helps me live a loving and good life. Religions are just too full of mans rules.

[@alias41100]

Abigail Parker How do you think God feels when you say he is not needed. This happened back when he was championing the Jews and it hurt him very much. He loves us and we should return the love and follow his teachings.

[@darcishook-woolley3456]

Thank you for another great video, Lloyd. Dr. Penton is a treasure trove of historical knowledge and experience. This interview was such a pleasure to watch and hear. You asked excellent questions. Thank you both for sharing your knowledge and insights.

[@carolinelvsewe]

Very interesting interview from a 4th generation Witness. The changes, the insight, and study.

[@marajacobs-proctor200]

Such an enlightening interview! Fascinating information, especially about the earlier times in the JW religion. Thanks to you both!

[@georgerickard4915]

Lloyd of all the interviews you’ve done, and I think you are an excellent interviewer, this is far and above my favorite. I see and hear so much of myself in Jim - the respect for some aspects of JW’s and the stands they took, the abhorrence at what this religion has become, the contempt for the current self-assumed “faithful slave”, and the attitude of wanting to make the most of life and that it is too precious to waste on this organization. Thank you so much for this.

[@jeannieyerigan2115]

This was a Great Interview ! Thanks , Loved it :)

[@albertos1619]

What an amazing interview and conversation between you both! So many thought provoking points. You’ve outdone yourself again Lloyd!

[@clairelangdon5740]

What a gentle and humble man!

[@blitzblutz]

Every time I read the comments I see so many long-time JWs leaving. Great to see! How can there be any people left in this cult?!?

[@deborahd4310]

Great interview and very insightful hearing about what was the history of disfellowshipping. I was df'd in 1981 and woke up after I was no longer a JW, so it was interesting to hear what was going on back then and why many left on their own.

[@celticfiddle7605]

I find great comfort and peace listening to this fine man speak.

[@Marylopezgarcia545]

A breath of freaks her air. This has been the best interview. Very kind hearted man. I feel like I got a big bear hug. Thanks you Lloyd and James. I really need this. Really really, really did. We newly woken ones needed this. Well I did.. My heart was touched.

[@dianewilson5106]

I found this interview to be so very interesting. I am 68 years old and luckily my mother back in the 50's warned me of the cult of Jehovah Witnesses. . This action led me to a lifetime study of comparative religion which I encourage anyone to undertake. I was exposed to scientology in the 70's and immediately saw it as a cult. It is a shame that people continue to let others control how they think. Be kind to each other, empower others and help those less fortunate. Thank you for further exposing the unkindness in this religion ( sic).

[@NataleePatel]

He's wonderful

[@RitaMalikfour]

Natalee Patel you’re not serious , if so. Why are you here

[@holirumicsfriend]

What a fantastic interview! Great questions, great answers, full of logic, passion, sincerity, human kindness, and more. Very well done! I hope this excellent work brings people out of the darkness. Thanks for the hard work!

[@mackiepimo-jwjones3019]

Amazing to interview someone who has seen a lot throughout the years.

[@byebyewatchtower]

Finally a great interview. No more pillow talk from the pillow-people in Warwick, New York. Thanks Lloyd for a well done interview.

[@j.j.1064]

Professor Penton and John. That was probably the most even handed interview I have ever heard on this subject. I'm not ashamed to say that you have me a lot to think about. Since waking up myself and listening to all the ex Jehovah's Witness movement narratives. It can almost become a kaleidoscopic navigation that can falsely lead you to the conclusion that all Jehovah's Witnesses are bad and all ex Jehovah's Witnesses are good. This is a mindset that can be self defeating because it upholds falsehood which is ironically the very thing that ex Jehovah's Witnesses are supposed to be exposing. You made an interesting analogy that the Watchtower became so preoccupied with its hatred of the Catholic church that it has now morphed the very organisation that it set out to expose. Hence the danger exists that the ex Jehovah's Witness movement has in many quarters become so angrily obsessed ( including myself ) That we almost become like the Watchtower itself by name calling those who disagree with each other. There is a danger that we can slip into a kind of lynch mob mentality leading to words and actions that are counter productive such as flash mobbing kingdom halls and agressivly haraunging those manning literature carts. This amounts to shooting the messenger. Anyway thank you again, I have modifications to make in my outlook. Hopefully for the better and I look forward to reading your book. A republican statesman made this interesting warning concerning allowing ones speech and actions to be driven by your emotions without being tempered by reason and although in the foregoing quote I disagreed with its conclusion, I felt that the principal was very wise...... “I’ll tell you this tonight, be wary of the lynch mob you join today,” Ingraham said. “Because tomorrow, it could be coming for your husband, your brother, your son, and yes, even your president.” Newt Gingrich,

[@switchtheflip9422]

J. J. I think that people become blinded by the pain they were put through. Whether that's the pain of expulsion, the pain of feeling different from the rest of society, or just from having been lied to all your life. What we have to remember is that most people inside, weren't bad people nor had bad intentions. I personally choose to pity them because they will never understand how misguided they are.

[@jacquelynn2051]

@@switchtheflip9422 I pretty much feel the same. However, the few encounters I've had with J Hova Witlesses they were all arrogant and all knowing that they can stir up dislike for them. They truly believe that they are the chosen group and unless YOU conform...you're doomed. So yeah, er when I see those carts.. I'm happy to be a Negro in a recently JW indoctrinated Hispanic neighborhood and that 99% of the time they leave me alone ,so I can thankfully avoid any temptation of Shaking Witless Syndrome. For the record: Im a born in. Baptized st 13. Auxiliary pioneered. Piano played at meetings. Out since age 22...EX J Hova Witless with immediate family members still in. They are arrogant and mean towards me so I do not associate with them. I have even blocked one of my sister's number because she left mean nessages. I will sacrifice (in the sense of NO DEALINGS...when I see them...I IGNORE THEM) EVERY member of that faith for MY happiness because we Ex'ers know that this is an utter and absolute FARSE.

[@tonymorrisdeturd9321]

@@jacquelynn2051 Good for you. I admire your strength.

[@theresaakins2317]

I agree with the mob mentality in wxjws. Not all but a fair amt are.

[@theresaakins2317]

@@switchtheflip9422 its a battle for our minds! Wow.

[@dorothyrafuse724]

Thank you Jim Penton for your intelligent and scholarly interview on Jehovah's Witnesses. That was the best I have seen in a long time. Appreciated.

[@matthewp81]

Nice to see a theist being interviewed for a change.

[@leesmith2181]

Matthew Robson €__

[@chrystianrodriquez]

Exactly ! This is nice.

[@frikandelthaisaus]

Very refreshing indeed!

[@tiffanyanderson7094]

Wow! This was an intensely rich interview! And what an admirable man! I was sad to see this special video come to an end. Thank you Lloyd and Dr. Penton!!! ♥️

[@deeaxenhammer4817]

Absolutely top class interview, thank you and well done both of you!

[@jewell92]

I could not continue trying to push J W's beliefs on others, telling them that they were going to hell. I got out! Thanks for posting.

[@lisagoff1503]

Well JWs don't believe in burning hell, so that kind of exposes you as dishonest!

[@JRizoli-uj3zz]

Great interview. Its so nice to see the older ones who have been treated so badly by the witness corporation discuss what has happened to them in their lives being in the JW's. This interview proves that the JW organization is actually the fulfillment of Mat <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1488">24:48</a> "But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,' Mat <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1489">24:49</a> and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, Mat <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1490">24:50</a> the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know" They have beaten their fellow members and will be directly dealt with by God himself... James Penton is a man of integrity and represents what real Christians should be like and not like the dog eat dog, vile vindictive JWs that run that corporation that has reached the end in its line of Christianity....

[@bettyjanellull1315]

Thank you for an excellent interview. I particularly enjoyed the wealth of history of the JWs. I fine man

[@firstsando]

Interesting talk. Mr. Penton is a very intelligent gentleman.

[@mousegeek]

I read "Apocalypse Delayed" about 5 years ago. Great book. Particularly enjoyed the chapter on 'miracle wheat'.

[@canoenut]

Coincidentally, just purchased his book, Apocalyse Delayed, this week! Amazing details and great background for me, a 3rd generation Canadian JW, now ex. Thanks for your channel and tremendous interviews.

[@larrysommer3350]

This was very helpful to my personal growth. Thanks to both of you.

[@hellowkitty8392]

brilliant guy ! thnk u so much for the opportunity to listen to him, wow i learned alot from him,,, beautiful attitude ! God blesss u !

[@jeneb52]

Great interview and do tell him I thoroughly enjoyed hearing from a historical point of view! To know he was there during Franz was amazing to hear too.

[@gayle9977]

What a wonderful interview, love this man. Have been enjoying all of the videos you have been making recently. Keep it up.

[@khallo151]

It is wonderful to watch a discussion between two well-spoken individuals. Thank you

[@philipgahan9649]

it was remarkable for me to hear from Mr Penton how the hatred of the catholic church has morphed the the JW organisation to become something very similar - I have thought this for a long time myself and in a way it's pleasing to have this confirmed by someone who has studied the organisation and who is an authority on the subject.

[@franmorrison1080]

would it be fair to say that some from the R.C.s do find their second home with the J.W's? I know one, that's all.

[@kevinjackson2361]

Loved this interview, I agree with Jim's perspective that when leaving (waking up) the JW's that you should seek the truth of the Gospel, the real teaching of Jesus and Christianity and not let the lies and deception of the Watchtower organization dissuade you in that journey. But I can also appreciate all of Lloyds research and in-depth examination of many JW's topics, so I can admire the dedication each of you in your respective paths. God bless you both, Shalom

[@SunFlower-xb3gf]

Thanks Mr. Cedar for giving us Mr. Penton's historical knowledge, wisdom and insight.

[@marilynkennedy8236]

Agree with you SunFlower what a very impressive old man. He said that in1972 the Society relaxed the rules about going door to door but I remember the JWs were still going down that path in the Eighties in the UK so they didn't stop it altogether. I have had many discussions with them on the doorstep. They would even come on Christmas Day and Good Friday. M Kennedy.

[@vampcompany8990]

What an insight! Amazing man, great interview Lloyd! 👍🏻

[@kazfleszar5899]

this man sounds like he s speaking for me i was a jehovars wittness for years and i was sick with nerves knowing i had to go knocking doors ,and i was looked on as weak in spirit .but i was shy by nature. like this good man says we all have different gifts ,now thanks to this man i can stop beating myself up and feeling worthless in the sight of god thanks .for giving me my self worth back .thank .

[@SusanGaskin]

Thanks to both of you for that great interview. It's so nice to see this interview because I grew up as a JW in western Canada and was a young child when his story blew up. I remember people saying how proud James Penton was and how he demanded that people call him "Dr. Penton". How ridiculous the whole thing seems now, especially since these ones knew nothing of what really had happened except what the organization told them, and they were part of an organization who would happily call Joseph Rutherford "Judge Rutherford" though he was never really a judge!

[@danielpack7675]

Always thought it odd that a religion that condemns civil government referred to one of its past leaders as a judge.

[@leecooper3852]

Rutherford did practice law and defended Russell against dozens of accusations made against his character by opposers to his ideas...mainly religious opposers

[@susans3996]

Thank you Mr Penton for sharing your knowledge and experience. Another great interview Lloyd.

[@quantumcommunities7618]

As someone who has never been religious in any respect, I'm so glad to have stumbled into this corner of the internet. This conversation is utterly fascinating and I've learned so much about history and civil liberties and how people outside my worldview see the world. Thank you.

[@kimtaylor2946]

I could listen to Dr Penton for days. What an amazing interview with a sound, rational voice. Thank you so much for this!

[@davidwicklin9943]

Wow! Great interview with M. James Penton! Thank you Dr. Penton & Lloyd! My personal story - If I only would have read his book "Apocalypse Delayed" given to me by my anarchist co-worker and college student Derek from his Northeastern Illinois University Library here in Chicago in 1992 when he freaked out that I was studying with JW's then I would not have deeply involved myself getting baptized in 1994 as a Jehovah's Witness. I had no JW's in my family so I began my "Walk-In" by starting my "Bible study" with JW's in June 1992 and my Mother died a month later July 18, 1992, after a 12 year battle with lymphoma cancer at 58 and I was 20 years old, an only child, somewhat reclusive, impressionable, and in retrospect naive. After my co-worker brought me Penton's book I had already been told/warned about so-called "apostate" literature and I actually brought Penton's book to my JW study conductor - he "looked" at it, skimming the chapters and headliners and in essence dismissed stating "I won't read this because I already know what it says and the author is really trying to destroy and undermine my faith and I would not endanger myself by reading this". I listened to him. That's why I came into JW's - I simply didn't read what was right in front of my eyes because this "nice, loving" newlywed young JW couple, whom I'm still friends today with and whom is still an Elder, wife a pioneer to this day, and whom I love and care about. That's part of the reason why I don't want to be DF'd or DA myself, just continue to fade and help everyone who has been damaged and hurt by JW's because right now that's how I feel I can most effectively help while "taking bricks out of the tower" with "UnWitnessing" about TTATT while still "in" as long as I can. This has been a very profound and emotional several months for me. Sometimes I cry for the hurt and pain ex-JW's, faders awoken & conscious class has gone through. Now I'm realizing I have to grieve this out of my system myself. I need to cry sometimes for my emotional health, mental health and spiritual well-being to improve. Blessings to you & family Lloyd, thank your wife Dianna for the sacrifices she's making to help you and us and hope Jessica is well, happy & healthy! I'm so sorry for the unloving shunning you've experienced. All The Best & Keep Strong! Dave in Wisconsin via Chicago

[@stephen6409]

i enjoyed that john got be one of the best conversations iv seen on your channel its also upbuilding for x wittness

[@jamieangel3766]

On a roll with the vids, yes mate! I was not able to get hold of that book but have heard of it from another channel. Awesome interview! :)

[@jamieangel3766]

I think I got confused with the book. I thought it was the one Eric JW Struggle read from about grandparents who are shunned. Still really enjoyed the interview heading over to Amazon to look for this book. Armageddon outta here haha!

[@justmadeit2]

That was a fantastic interview. Very informative with a man who has a lifetime of experience with a wealth of knowldege about the Watchtower and history. A very nice guy too. I would love all Jws and those studying with them to see this conversation between you two in its entirety.

[@cwoodswalker4646]

Absolutely love this interview! Thanks to you both!

[@robynbass9636]

Brilliant interview, your best yet. Fascinating to hear Mr. Pentons early experiences in the movement & his take on the present day org. Thank you to both.

[@chrystianrodriquez]

John, thank you very much for giving us this interview. I really appreciate it!

[@SilverGirl-925]

I was never a JW, and so I didn't think this would interest me, but I found it fascinating to hear the history of the organization and how it evolved into what it is today; And what its members had to go through.

[@lizaburberry1543]

angelina pirkle , same here am studying at the moment with them, but deep inside I have questions, this interview helped me to open my eyes and presently am reading Ray Franz book, Crisis of Conscience. So sad for my 3 brothers and their families who are so zealous & serving the organisations, well the watchtower really. I gave up lots of things in my life thinking am pleasing Jehovah not the Watchtower, this made me really cross! This video certainly will help lots of people to wake up! It certainly helps me! 😊

[@BoninBrighton]

Fabulous- this is the first video I’ve watched all the way through without skimming.

[@barbaramullins4233]

I have thoroughly enjoyed this interview. Thank you both for your candidness and open honesty. Very refreshing and insightful.

[@mariacristinafranchini7166]

I needed 2 days to look this video. Because I was allways disturbed by someone. But I wanted to listen every single word. Thank you very much, it was so intetesting for me.

[@patriciaholguin1882]

Beautiful interview and makes me see everything in a different light. Thank you Mr. Penton and Lloyd Evans.

[@UKS12345]

James tone is what I first admired in Ray Franz. I don’t like people who attack other people for their beliefs and understanding of scripture. Good interview. Thank you

[@leopoldtheseconed8526]

I have watched this several times. I so wish I had a elder to talk to like this right now. I can’t believe I have been a active witness for over 30 years throughout Canada and this is the first I have herd of this. Ray Franz as well.

[@adamheckathorn5319]

This is enlightening. Can't agree enough with the point that it is wrong to wish or work for the persecution an entire religion. With JW's it just feeds their persecution complex strengthening the hold the leadership has over the lay people.

[@blacklash61]

This one of the best interviews you've done Loyd what a great eyeopener really helped me to confirm I've done the right thing by walking away from 14 years of lies.

[@bubblestar2314]

Good interview. So nice to see Jim again and glad that he is staying well and keeping busy and is in a good happy marriage.

[@j.c.anderson877]

Excellent excellent excellent video. Carl olof jonnson wrote his book soon after I was born. I read it in my late 20's. So thankful for honest thoughtful ex witnesses that can control their emotions and challenge ideas on their merits. I was truly bitter and lost. Men like the two in this interview really saved me.

[@annieabfab6258]

An absolute privilege ! Thank you both !

[@deanmacdaniels5751]

Thank you. Great interview. He is so sharp and articulate. His advice for people leaving the jay-dub org, at the end of the video, is really well put. Even in several areas like "remain Christian" that I don't necessarily agree with, he makes such a kind presentation of his argument. Brilliant. Enjoyed your points in that area of the video as well Lloyd.

[@GREEKTEDDY]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU I was looking for an interview with Dr. Penton.

[@barrymorrison8013]

another great piece of work! Thank you! keep them coming.

[@sharoncherryontop1275]

What a great, informative interview/video! Thanks heaps!! :)

[@otistemplejr.7511]

Wow!! After watching this interview and other links, I've come to the conclusion that the shunning is more so use as a tool of protection for the organization, as long as they can keep people SUPER busy field min

[@oscarc5391]

It was a fantastic interview thanks again