A Critique of Angel Dust in Hazbin Hotel

[@Krossxc]

The critique defender has become the criticizer. Oh how I’ve entered my dark era. Jokes aside, like I said, this video details what are my biggest problems with the show so trust me when I say I will be a lot more positive when I get around to talking about the rest of this season. I just feel the most passionately about Angel Dust so I coudn't help but talk about him first. Is it a bad idea to open my discussion of this season with what will probably be my most controversion take? Yes. Yes it is.

[@sheilaatienza45]

ZcCFAF VHDBF❤️❤️❤️❤️☄️✨

[@Amadeo790]

Why is it a bad idea? Criticism is fine if you have good points, snowflakes be damned.

[@KittyBGaming]

When I hear the pilot vs the show, I feel like pilot angel dust is more fun and loves to mess with people because it’s in a jokey tone but when I listen to the show’s angel dust, I feel violated and it’s unpleasant But overall, the writing and structure is the problem. I agree with everyone on that

[@HugeRMCFanBoY-bx3od]

Personally love the writing

[@laniakeas92]

Well, in the show he looks more like a traumatized person (which he actually is) who wears mask and plays a specific role. He is kinda supposed to make you feel cringy and uncomfortable with those jokes

[@viennasavage9110]

Angel dust is intended to disturb with his story.

[@Claudia_Crimson_585]

Angel is still that way and to me the writing is fine...

[@viennasavage9110]

@@Claudia_Crimson_585 ikr. I think they have those nostalgia glasses on tbh.

[@mrschris7176]

I wish his mobster side wasn't basically completely irrelevant now. He was flanderized before the pilot was even released. Turning from a mobster who was a little bit of a pervert to a pervert whos kind of maybe a mobster If you turn your head and squint your eyes a little bit.

[@DeathKitta]

He was a pornstar in the pilot too. He was giddily fighting in the show too.

[@Innerpandora]

Honestly tho. I hope his family is explored more in season two

[@aceyd9299]

@@Innerpandora I agree. I hope we see flashbacks of his life too.

[@waves2378]

I feel like these are issues because of Amazon. I know that had Viv been given more time/eps, we could have gotten a better s1 story. Viv herself said she wished she had been able to include more of the story she wanted to tell.

[@RootOfAllEvil-666]

He was shown to know how to use guns

[@Slomurr]

One thing I've noticed but sits very wrong with me is how the show is willing to show the abuse, but barely showing Angel's recovery progress. Like we are just told 2 episodes later "oh yah, he's not really open to drugs anymore." Like, tf? Not to mention the show will treat Angel's SA seriously, but Sir Pentious's SA is a throw away gag in the same episode Angel was standing up the Val in. Like damn, should we only take SA seriously sometimes?

[@Bakamatsu-GojiFanArchive]

So they can't joke about sexual assault? Yall don't bat an eye at murder being in a comedic context but when something equally as serious is joked about you act like it's the greatest atrocity committed. Weak

[@lloydlandrum3040]

@@Bakamatsu-GojiFanArchive the issue you are missing is they treat SA as a serious topic with one character yet still joke about it with another character

[@Bakamatsu-GojiFanArchive]

@@lloydlandrum3040 correct it is. but so is murder and shit. which is also joked about. so is the whole show bad? or just the SA stuff? it all falls apart the more you question your silly arguments

[@iexistyes_]

@@Bakamatsu-GojiFanArchive the show itself doesnt seem to portray murder in the same way angel’s SA is, though. with that lens, the SA jokes being right next to SA being taken seriously is a larger problem than murder being largely portrayed comedically across the board (sir pentious’ death is perhaps the only time murder is taken seriously, and even that lends itself to being a funny moment in some capacity). in fact, seeing as episode 4 is largely dedicated to showing how dark and horrible angel’s abusive situation is, the choice to make SA jokes on the side is hypocritical as all hell, as well as making episode 4 much more in-genuine; especially since SA jokes are often made at the expense of the victim.

[@kodicore]

@@Bakamatsu-GojiFanArchiveI'm going to point out that murder is used as a serious point in the show. Charlie wants to AVOID her people being massacred every year, yet ADAM is the one to joke about murdering people, and Adam is the bad guy. So your point falls flat.

[@dankbudew4830]

Imagine if Hazbin Hotel stayed an indie series on KZbin, like The Amazing Digital Circus. I’m pretty sure a good chunk of the writing issues with the pacing and characters would’ve improved a lot instead of feeling so rushed.

[@maplered5042]

Helluva boss running like indie series on KZbin and still has same problems like Hazbin Hotel. With more tragedy depths, but still

[@uchiki_bunny1248]

But then again helluva boss exists. And it has the same problems, the same would’ve happened but it just would take a longer time for each episode to come out. I doubt it could even get longer time, knowing Vivziepop- it would have more filler 🙄

[@R.444-]

it’s because - as was pointed out in another very good critique video, vivziepop gutted the cast and crew associated with the original pilot

[@bobbitworm8184]

I don't think so. Ppl have already pointed it out but Helluva Boss is indie but still has the same problems. Plus it's not like the team behind Hazbin were assigned some Official Amazon Show Writer. Amazon is literally just hosting it + contributing a budget. The issues with the writing primarily start with Vivziepop I think. That's not a criticism of her as a person btw, I've just noticed that she has trouble "killing her darlings" (as in the literary term) and that ends up confusing the writing because she wants to include every single idea. Ironically I think her sudden massive success may have actually harmed the quality of the final show. If she had to do this on a shoestring budget, with less voice actors, less animators (and thus less capacity for flashy animation), and less money to fund long seasons, then she would have had to decide what was REALLY essential to the story and what could be cut. I love a lot of the characters in the show, but I think like 50% of them could've been cut or saved for season 2. I mean what did Velvet even do that couldn't have been covered by Vox or Valentino? What was the point of Nifty other than making the Adam's death a joke? Again I love these characters, but I think the show would've been better without them.

[@artistanthony1007]

No the issues of HH is Viv's fault, you clearly haven't seen shows like Over The Garden Wall if you immediately say it isnt her fault.

[@ArT-1025]

It's a really valid point, how fast Angel Dust's arc is done, and how quickly he stands against Valentino. But in the middle of Episode 4, when Valentino and Angel are in his dressing room, and Valentino tells Angel to get Charlie out of the studio, Angel Dust says "Just...don't hurt her." And the scene at the bar in the later episode, Angel Dust was saving Niffty. Me personally, I think that this just shows how much he cares for his friends.

[@Krossxc]

I definitely agree that the intent is for Angel to come across as caring for his friends more than anything, and I find that moment touching. I just can't ignore how in contrast that feels to the way he consistently puts down Charlie's dreams throughout the first half of the season. I get that he doesn't believe that HE can be redeemed, but just calling her dreams stupid feels less like a subtle justification of his own self image and more like he just wants to make her feel bad.

[@lexyruse603]

​@@Krossxc With Charlie's dreams I think the issue is how she goes about it. For example he called the game she was trying to do stupid. Angel is a character with a lot of trauma and honestly I bet many sinners have trauma which leads them down a bad path. Her camp exercises aren't gonna help with that. Not to mention that very tone death skit she had Angel do. I actually watch a KZbin therapist who analyzes the characters and she did a video called how not to do group therapy and points out the problems with how Charlie goes about things.

[@TribusCaputCanis]

​@@lexyruse603 Drop the link 🔗

[@izachi-chan2432]

​@@Krossxc Wow, an abuse victim pushing people away by being rude? And slipping up in their recovery process? Unbelievable! (That was sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell. With the way you read Angel Dust's character I feel like I should specify)

[@thelivingliver6715]

i agree. hes scared to stand up for himswlf but not for his friwnds

[@Deceitful_Jester]

I personally think the scene of Angel standing up to Val was pretty good, as I feel like the only reason Angel was willing or able to do it in that moment was because Nifty was in danger of being placed in his situation, and sometimes the only thing that can make you overcome a block like that and do something is when you realize somebody you care about is in serious danger and your brain reacts by suddenly having a brief, impulsive fight response where it has been trained to normally have a fawn or freeze response instead. That's happened to me a couple of times in less extreme scenarios. When it's somebody ~else~ you know getting damaged for once, it just hits differently, pushes a slightly different button.

[@WhitneyDahlin]

Yeah that's how I interpreted it too. That he wouldnt have said or done anything if nifty wasn't in danger. I think the point was to show he truly cares more for other people than himself. He feels he doesn't deserve the same rights and respect as everyone else does.

[@emilybixler3166]

I agree with this. With my abuser, I only started standing up to him after a friend moved in with us and his abuse started reaching him.

[@theneverwatcher9860]

I feel like he still should've acted a bit scared about it tho

[@SandyGarnelle]

Also just to add. It feels like a total skip in Angel's development because between ep 4 and ep 6 there was 2-3 MONTHS OF IN-SHOW TIME. The pacing and time is so bizarre in this show

[@RootOfAllEvil-666]

@@theneverwatcher9860 That implies his character growth, it’s rushed but it’s there.

[@alananimus9145]

The way I read them in the beginning is attempting to push buttons in order to distance themselves from others.

[@endofthelineOFFICIAL_ALT]

Who are them like which characters are you referring to? (Sorry if I just read it wrong)

[@alananimus9145]

@@endofthelineOFFICIAL_ALT Angel

[@alexbennet4195]

Why are you calling him “them”…?

[@alananimus9145]

@@alexbennet4195 them is angel and yes calling him them is correct. Please, please, please tell me you are not actually going to go wokescold over calling Angel them.

[@alexbennet4195]

@@alananimus9145 …WHY are you calling him “them”…?

[@lemoncardboard3530]

My only real issue with Angel was how the fandom just completely writes off his harassment to Husk. As someone who has been sexually harassed the way people just accept Angel's treatment to Husk genuinely disgusts me and I hate every scene where that occurred

[@DredFed]

Yeah! I know! And even Vaggie points it out and, not only does the show not punish or have any repercussions of Angel dust sexually harassing Husk but he also didn’t even show remorse for when vaggie brings it up and he NEVER DOES. It sometimes just feels like the writers just don’t care and they expect the audience to like it because “it’s angel dust” so of course he sexually harasses people. No, pilot angel dust DID NOT do that the video in this also explains it pretty well. In summary the show treats Angel like he’s absolutely perfect and they basically just dumbed down his character

[@laurav5767]

I personally hate Huskerdust shippers, i don't Care it's Just gross.

[@scyobiempire4450]

PREACH!

[@scyobiempire4450]

@@laurav5767i like it as a platonic ship, like them being besties

[@jasperjazzie]

honestly it'd be less bad if husk weren't treated as in the wrong for being mad about it. i think angel doing it makes sense as part of his trauma, but it should be treated as the unhealthy and not acceptable thing that it is, rather than just "oh he does that sometimes lol"

[@scootie_scoot]

I love this critique cuz I too was absolutely obsessed with pilot Angel…I was surprised that despite enjoying hazbins first season, I didn’t enjoy him as much as I used to. While I was also really bummed kovach wouldn’t be reprising his role, I didn’t realize that he’s a lot less witty and silly in the show than in the pilot…like the problem is with the writing and voice direction more than the actor himself. Also Blake Roman has so much respect for kovach it’s kind of adorable…he met Michael at a con and was like “aaahhh it’s the original!!!”

[@scootie_scoot]

I also just enjoy angels older characterization, even before the pilot, of being a sleazy drug-addicted mobster AS WELL AS enjoying drag and being gender-fluid and sexy, it makes him seem much more like a real person with hobbies than a caricature

[@Shonen88_Champion]

Rip pilot angle dust 🕊🕊

[@thelivingliver6715]

i think they switched them because blake is a professional musical performer and this show is a musical. i think they woulda kept michael had he had more experience, but otherwise i agree i wish they kept him

[@arabidraccoon]

I'm so glad other people have noticed this. I think the thing that really hammered home the difference in Angel's general attitude for me was the scene where Charlie is upset with her dad. Despite seeing how visibly distressed she is and how the mere mention of calling her dad stressed her out earlier, instead of doing anything to help, he just cracks a shitty one-liner and eats a piece of popcorn. This blatantly contradicts the bond they formed in episode four, where he was willing to play the part of the bad guy to protect her from Valentino, the understanding they formed afterwards and his behaviour in the original pilot. In the pilot, there's a scene where, after the crew get back to the hotel from the interview, Angel cracks a joke about getting some actual food in the place because of all the 'way-ward souls' they have running around, the obvious joke being that the place is completely empty. This visibly upsets Charlie and she curls in on herself, looking even more defeated than before. This causes Angel's face to fall, once he realises how much this remark actually hurt her. And, for a moment, he reaches out before letting his hand fall and walking away. This felt so much more genuine to me. It wasn't much but it told us that Angel was empathetic enough as a person to recognise when his behaviour wasn't on and that he had a desire to help, even if he didn't know how to reach out. It's honestly so sad how this largely doesn't carry over into the main show. I think showing how victims of sexual assault/harassment can go on to sexualise others themselves, like he did with Husk, is incredibly important but they needed to balance it out with his other signature sense of humour so it didn't become all-consuming for his character.

[@animationwriter]

Uff, so true. Especially with Angels opening to others. Like, he somehow cured of his trauma in a second? I was really questioning that and also felt a bit disappointed by not seeing Angel taking more time for the opening. But their duo was a hit, the best song ever.

[@ishashifar]

True but I feel like the pacing issue was more of just because the show had 8 episodes so everything felt rushed

[@WhitneyDahlin]

​@@ishashifarI have recently spent a lot of time watching classic black and white movies from before they had good special effects and the writing was just so GOOD. Because they had to rely on the story alone. I recently watched the original mummy from like the 1930s and it was so good at conveying information and giving hints. There was none of that I'm going to really dumb this down and slap the audience in the face with it because I don't have faith in their ability to read between the lines that the majority of stuff does today. That basically did not exist. And the movies were much shorter than movies are now. So I don't buy into the whole bad writing because of the time constraints. I've seen far more information conveyed much better in a far shorter of amount of time. I highly recommend everyone to go back and watch some of these old black and white movies. The writing in them and the storytelling and the dialogue, is literally just next level. The lady vanishes, rebecca, the women, vertigo, are all obviously classics for a reason. And are amazingly well-written. But just literally look up black and white movies on youtube and choose one at random and chances are it's going to be one of the best written movies you've seen this year.

[@artisticpigeon]

I agree tbh. Especially since I personally was able to relate to Angel, it seemed a little odd that things just seemed better immediately after. I could understand if it was temporary but slowly began to creep back in (which ok that sounds like character development in reverse but people have relapses at times, especially under stress), and it could've been shown how he tries to break out of the cycle and slowly learn to open up to others Imo though the pacing itself was a huge blow, had they had more time + less fat (filler), I think they could've pulled something as serious as this off much better

[@jasperjazzie]

@@ishashifar honestly so many of the show's issues would have been fixed if they had just been given more time, it's almost impossible to do everything they wanted to do in 8 episodes. i hope season 2 will be longer and give more time to develop the story and characters.

[@notshardain]

@@jasperjazzie they knew how many episodes they had to tell the story before they started working on the actual show (this is how production works for amazon, netflix etc), they could have pared it down to tell a coherent story in 8 eps instead of cramming multiple seasons worth of character plots into one season.

[@royalxprincessbaka6875]

I don't see this mentioned alot, but i prefer Nifty in the pilot than in the actual show. In the pilot, she actually acts like an adult women instead of an child who needs the other characters babysitting her. She was also one of the few characters that still retain viewpoints from the era she was alive (I'm betting they took that out in case their would be people who thought the show was agreeing with those views).

[@harmonylynx252]

That explains so much- I couldn’t put my finger on why Angel felt so dif to me. He went from being more like Jax in the digital circus (out for fun and selfish reasons) to being much more rude and purposely harassing others for fun.

[@viennasavage9110]

bro has NOT seen episode 2 of digital circus

[@harmonylynx252]

@@viennasavage9110 no I have and I still really really like Jax. Everything he does is in a simulation so he doesn’t care about his actions. So long as he gets to have a crazy and violent adventure.

[@anonymousapproximation8549]

​@@harmonylynx252 I think that's the difference. Pilot Angel didn't care, Season 1 Angel very much cares (to get a reaction).

[@harmonylynx252]

@@anonymousapproximation8549 Piolt Angel was a guy youd hang with and make crazy dumb and dangerous decisions with but laugh the whole time. Season 1 Angel however is the kind of guy who annoys you for fun at the expense of your comfortness. Ya know?

[@anonymousapproximation8549]

@@harmonylynx252 Pilot Angel the type of guy to chug bleach for a bet. S1 Angel the type guy to throat a bad dragon just to make you uncomfortable.

[@therealglosetik]

As an Abuse Victim, the fact that Angel recovers that quickly and can just randomly stand up to Valentino is honestly straight up insulting. Whenever I went to my old home, I was living in CONSTANT fear that I'd run into him again. And to this day, I still am. I avoid that place at all costs. It's part of why my family moved to a new town in the first place. I haven't recovered after 3 years, but somehow, this guy just talks it out with someone he vents to while drunk and then whoop-dee-doo, it's all fine and dandy! Now he can stand up to his abuser with no fear whatsoever! CUZ THAT'S REALISTIC, RIGHT??? No. Just...no. I don't even hate the show, I actually enjoy some parts of it. It's a mess, but it's a mess that I enjoyed, but the show's portrayal of abuse was absolutely horrendous and straight up pissed me off.

[@aceyd9299]

@therealglosetik I doubt the storyline between him and Val is resolved. He was angry and protective in that moment because of Nifty and his prior venting about Val abusing him. It was a bit rushed though. His affection for Nifty over his fear of Val could've been fleshed out more.

[@aceyd9299]

@therealglosetik I doubt his storyline with Val has been resolved. I think he stood up to Val in that moment because of his affection for Nifty and his prior venting about Val's exploitation of him. I do think it was rushed and we should've had more scenes of him and Nifty bonding.

[@therealglosetik]

@@aceyd9299 Fair, but he doesn't seem afraid in the slightest, aside from one second where he looks a bit scared, one moment of realism, it's completely unrealistic. And yeah, Nifty had "bonded" with him for a grand total of one scene before this. Rushed af lol

[@RootOfAllEvil-666]

It’s insulting to you because a character was able to stand up to their abuser? You know not every trauma victim has the same reaction to trauma as YOU do? I’ve had a family member go through something similar to Angel and they stood up to their abuser the moment they tried hurting one of our family members. Learn that everyone’s not the same

[@Danyka-k3r]

​@RootOfAllEvil-666more like it's insulting to them because of how fast he was able to stand up to his abuser, keep in mind that while yes canonically eps 4 & 6 are a few months apart, we don't see that and instead see angel being abused by and utterly terrified of val in one episode, then an episode later he is almost perfectly able to stand up to val completely fine.

[@gothwang7646]

as a victim of both SA and all forms of abuse i was very much left with a bad taste in my mouth about how angels story was handled because it did very much feel as if they just sang that entire plot away. it felt very rushed and simplified and intern belittled. because no it isn’t that easy to realize this relationship is bad i’m experiencing abuse and then speak out about it then speak so strongly against your abuser especially in public.

[@Randomperson-ce6gd]

I was so confused after loser baby cause he seemed fine after. He is literally still being actively abused you can’t heal from something if it’s still happening

[@MoraMorbid]

I'm so glad I wasn't the only person who felt this way. Coming from the same perspective.

[@TKR-ox9ff]

I hope you are doing ok

[@pinkraven4402]

I think it's just lack of available time for the creators. Being given mere 8 episodes is kinda pathetic and instead of trimming down the number of arcs, they were too ambitious and speedran the entire thing

[@MoraMorbid]

@@pinkraven4402 8 episodes is standard (Fiona and cake had 10, Smiling friends had 8, UWE is 10) and more than enough. That's why it's better to scale back, she's been approved for 3 seasons now, that is more than enough time, she just doesn't edit down her ideas. EVER.

[@hyderflayer]

It's actually fucking embarrassing how much better the pilot is than the actual show

[@R.444-]

basically the entire cast and crew that made the pilot got the boot so 😭 i guess it tracks at least

[@thelivingliver6715]

@@R.444-to be fair, they were switched due to the current actirs having more experience but i do wish they kept the og cast, i dont think they could have

[@liverooze0504]

While I heavily relate to Angel Dust, even just during the pilot, due to how he handles SA trauma, I also agree that his character arc was really rushed. They wanted to have an entire show, with many deep characters, and multiple plot lines, but only had around 9 episodes to do that.

[@TKR-ox9ff]

I hope you are doing ok

[@momirror5427]

THANK YOU. God, I knew something was different from the Angel from the pilot compared to the canon one but didn’t know what it was until this video. He’s not a bad character but the fact he was my favorite in the pilot and in the canon version he just becomes “meh” to me was so ???? and I didn’t know why at all. Thank you so much for making this video!

[@memory.3015]

FR SAMEEEE I loved Angel so much in the pilot, but then I found him boring in the full show

[@NeyamStar]

Yes

[@aceyd9299]

I wonder if the show will go into Angel suffering from withdrawal symptoms and struggling with his addiction.

[@redbirdpfpn]

Finally, another person noticing the difference between pilot and s1angel dust!! I was so bothered by it but I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was. The same thing goes for alastor too, except he goes from bubbly to.. smug.

[@thelivingliver6715]

i think i noticed it too but brushed it off til now, but i remmeber audibly cringning at how different angel felt

[@TigerDragon1001]

Don’t forget the fact that he just… quit drugs and “fixed” his addiction OFFSCREEN 😭 Honestly, I feel like Angel’s abuse and addiction are just used as set dressing. We barely see their impact. For all the characters bemoan his addiction, they don’t actually show the ugly side of it.

[@aceyd9299]

@TigerDragon1001 I wonder if the show will go into Angel struggling with withdrawal symptoms and his addiction flaring up.

[@thelivingliver6715]

yeah its all trauma dump no visible improvment

[@thelivingliver6715]

@@aceyd9299doubt it, unless the writers stop writing season 2 and dont continue it until they take classes on writing psychology

[@RootOfAllEvil-666]

There should have been at least 15 episodes for season one and not 8

[@warriorarts3546]

This has got to be one of my favorite critique video ever. You are not simply berating the show, you are also giving constructive criticism that you actually understand how to word properly and I thank you for that! Angel is my favorite character and I found myself agreeing to every single one of your points despite being hesitant to watch.

[@brandycole387]

This is an actually amazing critique of Angel, and just Hazbin in general! Of was well-spoken, well researched, and I think you made a lot of awesome points. I agree with the fact it his arc was very rushed, and am very much hopeing that more weight will be put on Husker's abuse as well, since he more or less doesn't get any sort of relief or attention on how Alastor treats him. (Other then the scene in the hallway, of course!) Thank you for making this my girl!

[@KantankerouslyK]

Fair critique, but I do think I have to disagree with one thing in particular: The scene in the club with Val. (Genuinely sorry, this got long) I never got the impression that Angel is past Val and I don't think the scene gives that impression either. He's clearly still under his control, but he's coping as best he can. This is reinforced by the beginning of the episode where Angel comes in already complaining about a long day at the studio where Val has been merciless with his work. One big point made in "Loser Baby" is that he and Husker are both still trapped in their respective situations, but that they can take comfort knowing they're not alone and that it's okay to not be okay with your situation, which may also be why Angel is getting better about not always having to put up a front about it. As for the club scene proper, you are absolutely right that abuse victims can have very strong reactions to being confronted with their abuser. And you can hear the panic start to rise in Angel's voice as he gets ready to leave. But the one key thing that stops him is Nifty. Angel can be a jerk to his friends, but he still values them and will go to great lengths to keep them safe. We see this in Episode 4 with everything Angel does to protect Charlie. Even in the dressing room, when Val is having him repeat things back, he only stops when Charlie gets mentioned, even knowing that it'll make Val angry. And this isn't entirely unrealistic. Abuse victims can be defiant, especially for something that they believe is more valuable than their safety. An older sibling may actively goad an abusive parent to keep attention off a younger sibling, for example. ( Note: Of course this isn't always the case and I definitely don't want to diminish anyone who gets overtaken by flight or freeze responses. Like mentioned in the video, even the ability to speak can feel impossible, let alone actively standing up. And that is absolutely valid.) In this case, the read I get is that Angel knows the consequences, but Val keeps making remarks like he's trying to recruit Nifty. Angel's already been spending the whole night going out of his way to keep her out of trouble and Val is the biggest trouble in the club. He likely sees Nifty as being in active danger. Angel is living this abuse just about every day and he knows how bad it can get, but he also knows he can survive and he doesn't want Val anywhere near his friends. He may even think his remark towards Val will draw attention away from Nifty. I don't think he's calm about it, either. His one best skill is being an actor, though you can still hear the tension in his voice and catch a glimpse of his facade breaking when Val first pulls him close. As for the follow up gag of Nifty being a little maniac that grabs a trophy off of Val, I don't think it's meant to make Val seem like less of a threat, but instead is what a professor of mine once called the "silly cucumber trick" (alluding to cucumbers being palette cleansers). Following an intense scene, a quick quip or gag allows the audience a moment to breathe and let go of that tension before transitioning to the next one. Of course, whether or not it was actually effective in practice is for the viewer to decide. I can definitely agree, though, that I do wish we had more time to simmer with all the characters and their arcs. I can definitely see where your interpretation comes from, especially with how rushed the story beats felt. I also genuinely hope Season 2 doesn't rush the conclusion of Angel's arc with Val. But yeah, just needed to get that off my chest apparently haha

[@Deceitful_Jester]

This exactly!

[@Krossxc]

Very well thought out responce. I can totally see how Nifty's presence would compell Angel's actions in episode 6

[@kattesaks]

bros cooking

[@TFoxhound]

​@Krossxc it's also not like angel is 100% healed from it, you make it sound like they sang loser baby and had a drink and everything is hunky dory but he isn't over it he broke a barrier and still has flaws why he is still in hell if dieing isn't part of redeeming and going to heaven, I never got an impression he is over Val just more open to make fun of him(out of vals sight) with husk his now closer friend, before he keeps things vague but now he is opening up what's going on at work and more honest about it and making jokes about it with other not for others to laugh at, it didn't magically dissappear once he confronts Val at the club because that's the first step on healing and for the show purposes redemption, Angel really cares for the hotel members especially Nifty watching over her throughout the party once he notices Nifty in a super drunk state and when Val does his usual joke about Angel not getting enough 🍆 and then asking if Angel is bringing Nifty to him for disgusting things "there's a kink for that" as he puts it and like Angel said to Cherri before "I don't want her to end up in the gutter like I did" and with Angel is protecting Nifty from things at the club he is proving to both the viewers and heaven council why he deserves a chance and he really is changing for the better, but with your video you are making it seem this is it the end of the story when he obviously has loads to heal from and more story to tell and why season 2 n more would benefit the story(like EVERY STORY EVER)

[@DezDoodlezzz]

Well said! =]

[@imgalxe]

Hey I’m late but this is incredibly well done. I’ve had these same thoughts for a while but I never was able to properly put them in a way that makes sense like this. It’s so great to see people call angel out bc I’m tired of the way majority of the fandom infantalizes him and acts like he did nothing wrong

[@Bubbafanforever]

Hey

[@mayelarodriguez6319]

Is the boss in person.

[@TheUnmitigatedDawn]

Adam is the hateable one and not the delciously entertaing villiain he actually is? The hateable villain in this show is Valentino

[@Krossxc]

Val is another appropriately hateable character, yes. I do not find Adam deliciously entertaining at all. He holds my interest, sure, but anytime he's onscreen, I am having the opposite of fun, personally.

[@kingkingo1841]

​@Krossxc yeah, valentino and vox are more entertaining then adam. Possibly because there are more grounded

[@Cherry-ki3ln]

Ngl I love Adam lmao. He's just stupid enough for me not to be anxious about him and when a villan is misogynistic... Well, since heros are misogynistic in hundreds of stories it makes me feel seen. Idk, he's great to me and he made Lute (the best character) well, Lute

[@Cherry-ki3ln]

And in case you're curious at what I mean by misogynistic heros, look at Ken (who is forgiven for inventing patriarchy lol), Todo from jjk, Hamlet, the majority of men from Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss regularly calling women bitches... Oh wait, we're supposed to all ignore that lol. Anyways the examples are countless. So having a villan who, due to being a misogynist is both stupid and evil (but in a non-threatening way) is just comforting. In this world filled until bursting with normalized misogyny

[@Bakamatsu-GojiFanArchive]

​@@Cherry-ki3lnoh... you're one of those people...

[@RingJester1Real]

Did Angel always make people around him uncomfortable? It was always there as part of his facade. Multiple times we as viewers see his reactions to certain situations. I feel the problem is the pacing as you mentioned, but i think the show has always been rushed. The pilot and the main show may have had years, but the problem was the lack of runtime. The show wouldve worked with more time and more episodes.

[@Artician]

It's funny that she purposefully left out the dialogue between Angel and Cherri in the pilot where Angel talked shit about the hotel with literally no provocation from anyone whatsoever.

[@TaylorStenilos]

I just wanted to say how cool I think it is that this wasn't a "I hate this and you should too" type of video. I felt like you brought up good points that encourage more thinking and discussing rather than just dismissing what you thought was bad, even if I didn't really agree with most of them but still.☺

[@Krossxc]

Glad that came across. I've really been trying to provide actually reasonable, constructive criticism in my videos rather than expressing the most extreme takes and emotions I have regarding a work, even though that would probably make for a more immediately entertaining video

[@TheTriggerIGbcottonemt]

I beleive angel got the miraculous confidence to face val in order to protect the little maid. He sacrificed for the little one which proved his redemption as well. You gotta look at the bigger picture... ppl respond to that type of trauma....and after the threat of "worse treatment " not being addressed again... i just chalk that up to ... it is what it is.... it literally cant get worse because its already the worst it could be.. and he has BEEN coping with it ..and has strength to cope with it more having more friends and a bond with husk... they just gotta suck it up and put their energy into helping the princess... i beleive everything was great. .. ppl react like this and other ways that "dont make sense" when it comes to trauma responses and just cuz you cant see yourself doing it esp after self admission of never going through similar trauma... that shouldn't be your Judgment gauge. There have been victims known to snap at some point and kill their abusers.... its the writers story.. not yours ..... respectfully

[@PaulPrisbrey]

"I'm just some asshole who let her expectations get too high." No, buddy, you're worth more than this, you did not set your expectations too high; Haznin Hotel let you down and I'll prove it. There were hundreds of fan projects made based just on the pilot, and many of them are better than the real show. You showed examples of subtle writing in the pilot that demonstrated an understanding of the characters as people, not just plot devices, the actual show only understands them on a surface level, if you look for the subtleties you realize there is no subtleties because what you see is all there is. A lack of subtleties shows that the writers don't know who the character are, so they don't know what they're doing. Hazbin Hotel Characters don't do anything that isn't immediately relevant to the plot, so it doesn't feel like they have actual lives outside of what we see. There's nothing that alludes to a life off camera: hobbies, casual interests, inside jokes with each other, opinions, pet peeves, nor daily problems -unless it's relevant to their immediate circumstances. They have all these big struggles, but without real human characteristics they don't feel alive. This is vital to a character driven show, and especially to a victim as sexual abuse because it is an incredibly personal issue. That's why only half of sexual assault survivors feel seen by him; Angel Dust isn't recognised as a character, so there's nothing to relate to outside of sexual abuse. The pilot didn't have this issue, so it's perfectly reasonable to hold the show to the same expectation. As an example of when characters is fully recognised, I took the first scene to come to mind: In Star Wars Episode 4, After hearing the plans are to shoot a two meters hole, an random pilot says, "That's impossible! Even for a computer." Luke confidently responds, "It's not impossible; I used to bulls-eye Womp Rats in my T16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters." We could still deduce from this one line, that despite the obvious grim odds, Luke has confidence in the plan, he has experience as a shooter, he's sees the random pilot as an equal, and this plan isn't far-fetched to him. But furthermore, this alludes to a life off camera, it was just a part of his childhood that plays into what he's currently doing. This is the most random scene I could think of, because this is the bare minimum of writing a character.

[@madnessred]

100% on feeling like several of these problems could have been avoided if they had more episodes.

[@furrydbz]

I'd be surprised if hazbin hotel has writers and not just people who rp as the characters then use the logs for an episode's plot

[@Krossxc]

If only they listed the people who worked on the show and what role each person did after the episode was over...

[@furrydbz]

If only people didn't look to friggin hazbin hotel by vivzie pop for realistic depictions of addiction and abuse

[@Krossxc]

Ur silly

[@furrydbz]

@Krossxc 😭 Okay, edited comment, you made the video

[@TheSapphireLeo]

After all we have seen in anime, etc., wh is surprised how bad it is?

[@PlanetZoidstar]

I think Angel's arc should have been saved for Season 2. Given the Vs are going to be the primary villains of Season 2. Season 1 can still allude to there being a "deal" between Angel and Valentino, foreshadow it by having Angel receive texts and being called away multiple times throughout the season - but keep it vague so come Season 2 (when the show has more time to focus on Angel and Valentino), 'that' can be when the bomb drops of what Valentino has Angel do.

[@HImitsuRose4869]

I have a feeling that we’ve only seen part of Angel’s arc. We’ve only seen his connection with Val, but the reason he’s in hell is because of being in the mafia. I think the ‘stick it to the man’ is him standing up to his dad who was the leader of the mafia

[@FullMoonDeria]

A pretty thorough take on the issues you have, but I do feel like some context was left out and some things weren't really considered. This ended up being longer than intended, but these were just the thoughts I had. Things like Angel's flirting and jokes were less overt in the pilot yes, but the attention he was giving Husk continued twice more after Husk made it clear he wasn't interested so he was doing it for a reaction. Something he does more overtly in the early episodes. As far as episode 4 goes, Husk outing everyone may have been a bit random, but it was also him being over Angel's BS. Which also makes sense because Angel got bent out of shape over Husk saying the script to the film was bad, when that wasn't really a critique of Angel. He made a point to show he'd seen all of their negative quirks, then doubled down on Angel when he was being flippant. There's a lot of little things to catch for Husk's character, including implications just in that episode. Following episode four there's an implied time skip, and while I would've liked for more of his development to be shown, it's not what we got. But given the fact that he's internalized Husk's advice, knows that Charlie knows, and Charlie having alluded to Val's abuse to Vaggie, it is plausible that he didn't feel the need to hide it however far down the line. But he's clearly not just cured either, given the fact it doesn't take Cherry much effort to get him to take drugs and it's only his concern for Nifty that puts him back on track and gives him a reason to confront Val. I can't say that it's handled realistically or not, but if Angel is the type to step up for his friends, it tracks. Especially because before the club we see him casually take a knife off Nifty like he's concerned for her. And lastly, a question to note, if someone in the hotel had already seen Alastor using Husk's chains to give episode more oomph, what would have to be done with the dynamics to make that work? Charlie certainly wouldn't have been as willing to work with Alastor for one, can't really say how Angel would have reacted. But it would take Angel's obnoxious flirting and ignoring of Husk's boundaries and turn it into cruelty if it continued up until their heart to heart, alongside Vaggie just shoving Husk off to check of him because "Oh you upset him, so fix it". And Charlie talking about a lesson on boundaries because she overstepped with Angel, right in front of Husk whose boundaries were regularly ignored by Angel, would have gone from cutely thoughtless to "Are you serious, Charlie?!" levels of awful and really pushed the idea that he was just there to further Angel's arc. To fix all of that so they seem less horrible would require some noticeable rewrites, I'd guess. So it was probably easier to keep them all ignorant for now, and so we could have that fairly effective moment with Alastor and Husk the very next episode.

[@rubyriot69]

Hazbin blows it’s load too early consistently with character development and plot points like briefly not knowing who killed the exorcist angel only to reveal it to the characters minutes later when it could have been a plot point to build tension around figuring out who dunnit. like why in the world does Carmilla Carmine, a character we know next to nothing about, given what is implied to be a very emotional duet with Vaggie?? it’s supposed to make you feel for her with the mentioning of wanting to protect her kids but, the problem is that Hazbin’s target audience other than teens is Viv herself. it doesn’t matter that the audience has no connection to this brand new to-us character, it’s Viv’s oc that she knows everything about. of course it hits different for her. and it’s shown time and time again with Viv’s own writing that she is squandering what faith people had in the potential of the show like 10 years ago, by pushing her female lead to the side in favor of showing off the backstory or development of a select few male characters while literally losing the original plot with redeeming sinners. instead HH wants to do a million things at once except the plot because Viv wants every tangential fanfiction thought she’s ever had about her fictional characters animated with bezos bucks while poorly paying her animators for her nose-diving indie series on this website.

[@T_E_G]

Fr- like what have they been doing for the past years of developing this show?? It just feels like a student slacking off their school project or essay or something and trying to catch up to the deadline with rushed work and then call it a day 💀

[@clouddiee]

you bring up some absolutely amazing points, and I agree with you on everything. I felt like Vivzie always had a rough time when it came to writing trauma for characters. I have nothing against Vivzie and I did think Hazbin Hotel was ok, but I feel like Vivzie is trying to juggle many plot points that don't seem to connect with each other and then saying "look guys! It's all connected trust me!". Honestly, how Angel Dust's redemption was treated made me feel really numb. It didn't really feel like it had as big as an impact as it should've and I feel that's why me and many other people don't find Angel's redemption to be satisfying. I will forever believe that the extermination date change is the reason Hazbin Hotel's writing flopped as hard as it did, if the character development wasn't rushed then it would've given characters like Angel and Husk a lot more breathing room to actually become lovable and satisfying characters. Like I said, amazing video, keep it up!!! :)

[@Krossxc]

Was the extermination date originally planned to be 1 year?

[@clouddiee]

@@Krossxc yes it was, and then they changed it and told the audience in the song “Hell is Forever”. I really hated it and I felt that’s the reason why the shows writing was as rushed as it was

[@Krossxc]

@@clouddiee oh wait, I meant did the writers initially want to be 1 year? I know within the show's universe it was supposed to be 1 year and then Adam shortened it to 6 months but I thought that was VIv's plan for the story

[@clouddiee]

@@Krossxc I’m pretty sure it was, but i personally just find it to rush character development and that’s why stuff was so rushed. it’s makes me sad because if we didn’t get that then the character development between everyone would be really smooth and the show wouldn’t feel so rushed

[@bwody3734]

I relate a lot to Angel, it was kinda scary even how much of myself I saw them when first watching the show. The song "poison" sends shivers down my spine cause I've been there mentally just a couple of months ago. After years of abuse there was nothing left of my former self, no love or joy, just doing the only thing I was good at, again and again and again for someone elses desires.

[@TKR-ox9ff]

I hope you are doing ok

[@aerosour]

the fact that they portray sex workers as constantly super horny and making sexual remarks towards everyone leaves a super bad taste in my mouth honestly. we don’t see a lot of other people in angel’s position in the show, but they are there and act in a similar fashion. i just really hate the stereotype of sex workers, especially gay male sex workers, ignoring peoples boundaries and being oversexualized. it’s not a good look. and while i can sort of understand the idea of this being a trauma response from him, they still did not portray that route correctly or with sensitivity at all. as a victim of similar abuse myself, i can safely say that this self-sexualizing response does appear in certain cases, but angel’s character does not do it justice. the show also portrays his actions as more of a satirical act more than a trauma response, so i don’t know if vivziepop was even trying to go there. overall, i really do not like how angel is written, and i especially don’t like how quick the show is to justify his behavior. he acts extremely obnoxiously sexual for nearly the whole season, seemingly BECAUSE he is a sex worker (which is not a healthy portrayal), then he’s suddenly crying and saying that he doesn’t mean it. i think a better way of writing angel’s character arc would be to not only tone down the sexual remarks in general (and also avoid making it seem like his job is the reason for his behavior, because that not how it works), but also drop little hints that he doesn’t actually think this way. his whole arc happens in one episode and it’s… not the best.

[@dieraviolieuresvertrauens]

THIS! im a victim of prostitution as well, making a prostitution survivor the one who harasses other characters and makes them uncomfortable is just a really weird choice. Yes, you tend to oversexualize yourself, since you’ve been thaught that your body is your only worth, but you dont casually harass your friends or strangers with creepy comments that make them uncomfortable- its just not a realistic portrayal, which wouldnt be a problem if the topic wasnt as serious and stigmatized already.

[@aceyd9299]

Not every gay character or sex worker character needs to be perfect representation. He's a flawed individual suffering from self-delusion and abuse

[@problem3412]

@@aceyd9299 the problem isn't that this can't/shouldnt happen, it's more like.. the writers couldn't find better ways to present this and make it happen, so therefore it comes off very fucking weird (and given everything else.. kind of a yikes?)

[@aceyd9299]

@@problem3412 Angel's character is meant to be a bit brainwashed and like he's made sexiness/sexuality his entire personality due to spending literal decades in hell (I think he died in the 50s?) as a sex slave porn star surrounded by lechers, predators, and other horrible people since he's in hell. It's like he's trying to convince himself that everyone wants him and that he enjoys his job to the point of making it his whole personality to cope with the sheer amount of time he's spent in that role and how bleak hell is. I felt that the writers were going for that character arc. I agree that there were better ways to write it. I'm not sure if VivziePop is a survivor of sex trafficking herself, but if so, maybe this is her truth.

[@obnox1ous_3fe420]

I've heard a theory that adam acts like an asshole because he never ate the tomato

[@turqussy]

what tomato?

[@Vampyroteou]

You mean apple?

[@obnox1ous_3fe420]

@@Vampyroteou they never specified wich fruit it is in the bible and I like tomatoes

[@dejus_e]

The apples so good it turns you nice

[@RootOfAllEvil-666]

@@obnox1ous_3fe420 Um- I’m pretty sure it was specified AND implied in the show that it was an apple

[@ManicMonster713]

I think most of the problems with hazbin hotel comes down to the fact that season one was eight fucking episodes. I have no doubt that if they had the proper time to flush out characters and organically build archs, the show would’ve been so much better.

[@cynical_chai8922]

I hate that excuse, they just didn’t need to stuff the season with irrelevant plot points. The V’s could have just been hinted at, etc.

[@ManicMonster713]

@@cynical_chai8922 ok… enjoy that opinion and I’ll enjoy mine

[@cynical_chai8922]

@@ManicMonster713 wasnt a personal attack lmao

[@ManicMonster713]

@@cynical_chai8922 you called my opinion and excuse and then said you hated it. If that wasn’t a personal attack, then you need to learn how to socialize.

[@cynical_chai8922]

​@@ManicMonster713 good lord you're chronically online. That opinion is a very common one, and I've seen it alot. It's not solely yours and I literally don't know you/don't care. If you can't take a slight disagreement from a stranger I think you shouldnt be posting on public forums.

[@ShooLaces-u7v]

Love the video! I come from a background way too similar to the situation Angel is in during season 1, and I was really similar to him at the time in an effort to keep other people away and out of my mess. So I hugely resonated with his character, even more than the pilot version. Still though, your critique was cognizant of those possibilities and was very valid in approach.

[@awesome-dp1oo]

I feel like they shouldve mixed events from episode episode 4 and 5, imagine husk coming back from his meeting with alastor leading into the bar scene, the tension would make more sense. husk and angel dust didnt do much throughout episode 5, so they could've had their own story while the rest of the cast was meeting Lucifer. Or they could've just swapped episode 4 and 5, making the events of episode 6 seem a little more appropriate.

[@Krossxc]

Giving Husk and Angel something to do in between the events of ep4 and 6 would have been great. Making the events of those episodes happen closer together would not. At the very least, they needed to emphasize that/how the characters changed since the time skip

[@laurav5767]

I'd be pissed if someone like Vaggie told me to comfort someone who was making me uncomfortable and then needing to feel sorry for them just because they have trauma and such… I understand. That's not an excuse for their bad behaviour which is (almost) never called out! I don't like Angel Dust- neither do i care he got character develpment OFFSCREEN.

[@anonymousmoose8037]

Really great video!! (So sorry that this is long!) I agree that fear of such a person doesn't go away quickly. However, Angel cared about Nifty which probably flipped a protective switch, allowing him to stand up to Val that ONE time. If he was completely rid of his fears and other emotions related to it, then he would be a able to walk away from it. I do find his behaviour rather off putting... But that's the point! He's deliberately being off putting in order to keep others away so he doesn't get hurt even more! As for him seeming "completely fine" after the music number. I assume it's only like that when he's with the people he's close too! (Personal experience). As for the being open thing. (Again, coming from personal experience) It can become easier to open up with other people you are close too when You've opened up to one of them already. Its like husk in this case, was the person to break that barrier of being closed off. And I can imagine that it is a massive struggle and takes A LOT of effort for angel to do all of this. But because we're only watching from an outside perspective, we don't see what he's thinking or feeling before those moments. For all we know, Angel could have been emotionally and mentally preparing himself before even open the door to the hotel, in order to open up about his day. We just don't know and we wouldn't see it. And i think the fact that we don't see more of what angel is going through, is probably a good thing, keeping the visual to a minimum is GOOD, we now know what's going on. And the fact that Val said he'd make things worse just emphasizes that. I definitely would like to see angel close up a bit more and have a few low moments/ relapses. As they do happen. Just to really emphasize those points. And yes, I definitely agree with the husker points. Things could have definitely been handled a little better rather than making him a plot mover. Again, really good video! Loved seeing this point of view.

[@sarahthesnail2271]

The way they had a happy pop song with sexual dancing whilst also representing being sexually assaulted and abused as a prostitute just rubbed terribly from me

[@aceyd9299]

There are a lot of dark songs with upbeat instrumentals. The song was appropriately dark through the lyrics in my opinion.

[@aceyd9299]

A lot of songs are dark with upbeat instrumentals. Not every sad song has to be slow.

[@problem3412]

@@aceyd9299 paired with the visuals it makes it WAY too on the nose and is moreso a bright neon sign for trauma than anything worthwhile - others have said it before but the musical Six handled a similar tone of song way better.. the vibe of the song itself wouldn't be a problem in theory, but it's a little different when you have, like. literally EVERYTHING ELSE wrong with this scene and angel as a character in the mix yk?

[@aceyd9299]

@@problem3412 The visuals are to contrast the fake sugar-y glitz and glamor of the porn world that he not only sells to others but was sold to him by Val. Not to mention some of the scenes in Poison he's not having a good time, so I wouldn't say it's tone deaf, per se. A ton of people said Poison was extremely dark as a song and video. While I think Angel's arc was a bit rushed, I think he's meant to be deeply flawed and realistic of someone who has the personality to be in hell while also dealing with serious trauma in a terribly unhealthy way, part of which is sexually harassing Husk the way he's been sexually harassed/assaulted/exploited.

[@racheljacobs5626]

I just want to say very quickly: As a victim of SA during my addiction era as a teenager, I feel that even though Angel´s story was only put into a 25 minute episode, they still made it into a story that is made into a reasonable explanation of the relationship. I personally felt represented in it but of course others will feel differently. Yeah sure they could have added more but sometimes not showing everything is enough. That is my opinion :)

[@johnjackson8327]

I personally don't think his problems disappeared after the song with Husker. He just finally started expressing them.

[@creepballo_o]

i cant take this show serious when the voice actor of the abuser character is posing with "hot" cosplay versions of val while selling a mug that says "pimping not simping" .if the creators dont take this subject serious why should the audience?

[@Krossxc]

Well, I'm not a cosplayer, and I don’t pretend to know why they cosplay the characters they cosplay but I do believe that just because you dress up like a character doesn't necessarily mean you agree with what they stand for. It could be as simple as liking their design, I guess. I imagine Joel, Val's va, feels similarly. But also, what should we expect him to do when a fan goes the 9 yards to dress up as his character and ask for a picture? Turn them down? Selling Val's mug is in poor taste imo. I'll agree there

[@creepballo_o]

@@Krossxc it is unrealistic to expect him to turn the fans down.but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth knowing that the fans just constantly s3xualize Val and all the creators do is sell funny mugs Abt it

[@Vampyroteou]

@@KrossxcI mean I am disgusted by anyone who cosplays sangwoo

[@gacha_xxtuber2218]

Cosplayer here! I wouldn’t really say I’ve seen, thus far, people cosplaying ‘hot’ versions of Val, considering most of his character’s actual outfits are, well, showing a lot of skin/could be perceived as sexual. It’s not that they’re ’making him hot’ when his character is already canonically in ‘hot’ outfits. But I can definitely see your point here. Especially about the mug. Seeing it kind of throws me for a loop- This is not me saying the hazbin cosplay community is not without fault. It MOST DEFINITELY has parts that make me… uncomfortable. My personal least favorite thing is people cosplaying nun Alastor & then sexualizing it. Nuns are already sexualized in costume media (Halloween costumes especially), which makes me uncomfortable to start with because they’re a group of people actively distancing themselves from that sort of thing with modest dressing and abstinence, so that’s kind of… eh to me in itself, but to sexualize a rather obviously sex-repulsed ace character *with* a nun outfit just pushes my buttons even more. And just the general sexualization I’ve seen from some Alastor cosplayers. Sorry I got a bit off topic with my rant, ahah-

[@aceyd9299]

@creepballo_o He's a villain. People seem to like villains a lot.

[@septimiusseverus343]

5:40 Adam is by far the best character. He saved this show. And the purge is justified. Those demons are in Hell for having been genuinely awful in life, and never tried to redeem themselves.

[@dieraviolieuresvertrauens]

im a prostitution survivor (escort) who is struggling with drug addiction since i was 13 and i hate this character with a burning passion😭he just makes me so uncomfortable

[@zc_artstuff3223]

I’ve never been SA’d but I heard another KZbinr say she has been and the song “loser baby” talking about being a loser after being assaulted and abused made her mad. The reason for that as she said, “I’ve been SA’d and I know I’m not a loser”.

[@RootOfAllEvil-666]

That’s not what the song was implying, it was saying that you shouldn’t feel alone in bad situation because there are others out there who share your pain and could help you. They used the word “Loser” to imply that, but the song wasn’t calling Angel a loser

[@moonronic]

i really feel like helluva and hazbin have just woobified/flanderized these characters; hazbin mostly feels like exposition dumping to cram all the worldbuilding and backstories into a small amount of episodes alotted. if you guys want a very good representation of someone whose undergone similar trauma to angel's; astarion from baldur's gate 3, hes also a sexually forward character due to the trauma of being pimped but in a way thats not uncomfortable and that genuinely makes sense... hes also not a "perfect victim" because hes had most of his humanity forcibly sanded down out of him by his abuse... he also adopts a fake sexual persona and spends a chunk of the game undergoing a personal story to deconstruct that... he also has white hair and red eyes... huh. viv maybe you needn't try w angel cuz someone else has already done a character super similar to him way better lol

[@MadiCarl]

Angel Dust in the beginning isn’t really meant to be likable. He IS just pushing peoples’ buttons. It’s supposed to be represented as a problem that is a symptom of his abuse. I feel like it’s okay for the characters to have gone through changes from the pilot, and I feel like old Angel was way too blaze about his attitude towards his abuse for the intensity of abuse he was going through. I like this version more because it paints a picture of a much more troubled person, which makes his redemption more satisfying.

[@Krossxc]

That's fair Personally, I feel like it's most satisfying to see a bad person turn around when they've got at least some positive traits. And I think Angel could have been portrayed as troubled while keeping his likeability intact. I felt they did this exceedingly well with the Poison music video, for example. Also, characters are totally allowed to change after the pilot. I only compare show Angel to pilot Angel because it illustrates exactly how I think show Angel could have improved.

[@ladylover9000]

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

[@jasperjazzie]

yeah, i wish more people would get that. pretty much every character in this show is some shade of morally grey, they're all in hell for a reason after all, and i get the "it's hell" excuse can get tiring, but it's wild how people praise alastor even though he's way worse of a person and then bash angel for being an asshole, as if alastor isn't way bigger of an asshole and for less reason, and even if he wasn't, they're in hell and he's also got trauma, ofc he's not gonna be nice and friendly

[@iikoifishii7893]

@@jasperjazzie Which is a much more grander reason as to why the writing in this show isn't great, angel doesn't really receive any sort of consequence for his super harrasive actions in the hotel, the reason why the "it's hell" excuse doesn't work in HH is that it's supposed to be a place where sinners can learn from their actions and grow for example, Alastor is a bad person, *but* he actively helps and hasn't really done anything awful (without reason) since arriving at the hotel. Angeldust on the other hand actively harrasses other people in the hotel and doesn't really get a consequence for it.

[@iikoifishii7893]

@@jasperjazzie ALSO (side note with my problem with this) hypersexual people don't sexually harass others EVER. it's at best super odd to make a victim of s/a this purposely confrontational without acknowledge why that's wrong and at most problematic.

[@MoonlarkSpirits]

One thing that really bothered me about Angel is how he treated Husk. I had a friend who didn't have a good life (neither did I) but he would make advances... not romantic ones, but very clingy ones that made me uncomfortable and he wouldn't stop because if I told him no, he'd get all whiny and emotinally manipulated me So the way Angel treated Husk... reminds me of that It also bothers me that people will use the fact that Angel is an SA victim as an excuse for how he treated Husk. Like, yes it was horrible but it didn't give him the right to treat Husk that way

[@kfphunter1315]

It's the same as saying that Allastor is different. For some reason, we put our expectations on these characters without understanding their essence. We judge by a puzzle that is not fully assembled. For example, Angel is initially a strong character. And literally the whole essence of his abuse situation is "in setting" reason with all this demon contracts. This would all make sense if Angel voluntarily stayed with Valentino, as happens in the real world with victims of abuse. But this is not the case here, so this whole perspective cannot be imposed on Angel. He is inherently strong and initially wanted to help Charlie, but he considered himself special, which justified his behavior in his eyes. I also say that we don't know the characters completely. Damn, we don’t even know their past (let’s say that Angel is believed to love Charlie because she resembles his sister Molly whom we saw in episode 6). Just let the show pick up speed, judging by the structure of Helluva Boss, we will be given pieces of the puzzle in the future, due to previous plot points will become clearer

[@ForestNurse1406]

That's really interesting view and thoughts. Thank you! For real!

[@cleep14]

13:13 he was protecting his friend and someone he clearly cares about and that kind of overpowers the trauma speaking from experience.

[@F_NerdShark]

It’s DEFINITELY a TONE issue. You cannot deal with a mature and serious theme by making the show’s tone and humour immature and unserious! There are frequent r-pe jokes in the show and in helluva boss, and Angel’s character and his abuse are often played up for jokes. You CANNOT have both! Unless you’re moral Orel and you write it as well as they did, then you can have both. I love moral Orel Also a bit off topic but it frustrates me that in a show trying to tackle Angel’s serious mental health issues, ANGEL HIMSELF says the line in the song “I sold my soul to a psychopathic freak”. Sure, Val may have ASPD, but again, the tone problem! You can’t focus on mental health representation and then make a comment like that in the same fucking show! And of you’re wondering how that comment is offensive it’s because the term “psychopath” USED to be in the DSM-5 and refers to real people who have a real disability. In fact, some people with ASPD have claimed that the term “psychopath/sociopath” makes them uncomfortable and they prefer not to use it at all. Using “psychopath” as an insult is JUST as offensive as saying “that’s gay” if not more so!

[@Eliezar18]

At 14:30 I have to point out that Husker's very existence in the show is a reference to him being beholden to Alastor, since Alastor is the one that summons him when a need for a bartender is expressed. He clearly has no liking of being summoned, but only superficially complains about it, then does what he is told to do. If that isn't a clear indicator of how much power Alastor has over him, I don't know what is, and that was in the pilot, no less.

[@Krossxc]

Disagree. Alastor is established as an overwhelmingly powerful character who has no problem murdering people to get what he wants. He does clearly have power over Husker from the begining, but he has power over nearly everyone in hell. All Alasot summoning Husker concretely tells us is that they have a history of some kind. Also, Husker's exact words are "you think you can buy me with a wink and some cheap booze?... Well you can." I feel like it's pretty reasonable to assume Husker has at least some autonomy in that exchange. He comes across almost like the Morty to Alastor's Rick. Like just gets dragged along on adventures he doesn't really want to go on but Alastor does this often enough that Husker is just desensitized and takes the path of least resistance. We can obviously read more into this scene with hindsight, but that just what it is. Hindsight.

[@finalhaunts]

Several people in the comments are missing the point entirely, one of the problems isn't that Angel is a bad person the criticism that Kross is getting at here (at least that's how i interpret it. If i'm making a clown out of myself right now do let me know) is that he's just not as entertaining to watch on screen. You can have the most vile person imaginable as a character and i'd still enjoy them as long as they're entertaining on screen and play their role in the story well; similarly, you can put the most morally sound character in front of me and if they're not well written i'm going to think they're an annoying shit and audibly groan every time they show up on screen. Fully aware this wasn't the main criticism of the video but the fact that people are even misinterpreting such a simple statement like that is grinding my gears

[@aceyd9299]

That's your opinion. I find him very entertaining.

[@aceyd9299]

That's your opinion. I personally find him entertaining.

[@aceyd9299]

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[@MissyMona]

I think that you stumbled on something, instead of Angel being an abuse victim, who uses sex as a way to untense a conversation the new Angel feels as if he LIKES making other people uncomfortable sexually, and because of that it ends up giving the character abusive tendencies that correlate to his abuse. Rather it gives a tone that an abuse victim will always become the abuser in someone else's life. It gets worse when character's ask him to stop and he gets aggressive about it.

[@aceyd9299]

Where does it say abuse victims are *always* going to become abusers?

[@RootOfAllEvil-666]

@@aceyd9299 They obviously said the wrong things, I think they meant that SOME abused people can indeed become abusers. It’s a cycle

[@alishahgul2280]

dude when you said you failed at your job you didn't I enjoy watching your videos you do research on topics as well as make good points it gives new perspective

[@Krossxc]

I appreciate that

[@shilasarkar6003]

Only if the show didn't every other SA scene like a joke but his. Seriously, were we really seriously supposed to laugh at Sir pentious?

[@Glacial_Waltz]

I REALLY don’t like that during loser baby, angels SA is compared to husks.. I guess workplace abuse? I wouldn’t know how to clarify husk and alastor. Alastor got husks soul over a game - putting your SOUL on the line is a lot, husk during their game was obviously confident in his abilities but then he lost. Womp womp, I don’t feel sorry for him all that much even though I really like him as a character, I just feel like he kinda got himself into his situation. It’s such a whiplash from the scene of Valentino very graphically physically abusing angel, to then have that compared to husks situation. It makes you not take angels abuse a seriously as you should, because it’s put beside something that I don’t even think you could clarify *as* abuse. And it infuriates me!

[@jadecoolness101]

SA kinda IS workplace ab/use when you're a prost1tute tho? I mean I don't wanna act like they're the SAME either but Viv is clearly one of those brainless "sex work is work! Don't question the PTSD rates, don't question the fact 98% of women want out, don't question why men should have the right to pay for women's bodies, don't question anything! It's work uwu!" So under that framework, SA truly is just workplace ab/use.

[@RootOfAllEvil-666]

They both sold their souls to psychopaths, that’s why their situations were compared. Both were tricked into signing away their soul, Husk because he was a gambling addict and Angel because he was a sex addict. If I remember correctly Val says that he offered Angel all the sex he wanted so that’s why Angel signed

[@shilasarkar6003]

Also, when did Alastor treat him bad? When he was swearing right at his face? Andd when he spilled out the only thing he shouldn't have? Honestly, as an Alastor fan I must say he is much worse than Valentino but Atleast in this regard, he isn't even comparable. And yeah, I mean Alastor is bad because he is the type of person to trap you in a torture chamber for eternity.

[@shilasarkar6003]

​@RootOfAllEvil-666only if the show "showed" us how Valentino caught him.

[@chillydog3188]

Thank goodness, I thought I was the only one that didn’t like Angel as much as I should in the first season. The pilot isn’t perfect by any means, but I feel like the sexual dialogue was amplified a tad bit too much in the series. I understand why people still find him fun, and I still think his story is immensely impactful, but I kinda got sick of his sex jokes after a while.

[@HugeRMCFanBoY-bx3od]

He's a great character and these are just opinions but I get really irritated when people say he's one of the best characters in the show

[@RootOfAllEvil-666]

@@HugeRMCFanBoY-bx3od Opinions opinions opinions! And Angel is one of the most popular characters in the show, you guys are apart of the minority who doesn’t like him that much

[@T.A.Edison]

I think Angel standing up to Valentino wasn't too out of the blue. In the 'Addict' music video at the end he was shown to be very angry and in episode four when Valentino shoves him around in the dressing room, just for a second you could see Angel glaring at him. His anger has been there for a long time and asmost abuse victims he was afraid to actually stand up for himself, especially since he made a deal with Val, binding Angel to him for eternity or so.

[@aceyd9299]

I agree. While it could've been fleshed out more, Angel is clearly angry at Val dislikes him. He's also shown to stand up to him when he's protecting someone like Nifty.

[@NightRaven_.]

honestly when I watched the show, I always felt like his redemption arc was rushed and I'm glad I'm not alone on that feeling. When Charlie goes up to heaven and uses angel dust as proof that her hotel is working, it kinda made confused on how much time has passed for her to confidently use angel as such. Episode 4 felt like the beginning of his redemption and Episodes later when we are told he's almost all better gave me whiplash tbh.

[@Kris-wo4pj]

Im sorry but husk sounds so off. I miss the old hard smoker voice.

[@Krossxc]

Honestly I love Husk's new voice, but to each their own

[@aceyd9299]

Keith David does have a smoker's voice. What are you even talking about?

[@RootOfAllEvil-666]

God no, imo his pilot voice made him sound like a smoke addict and his voice wasn’t nice to my ears

[@myellegreen7717]

Honestly, I don’t really hate Angel Dust in the show as apposed to the pilot. Pilot Angel is wayyyy chiller than Today’s Angel, but I can kinda understand why he is the way he is. I believe Today’s Angel is constantly being overly flamboyant and unnecessarily sexual because this is the ‘act’ he has trained himself to put on. He doesn’t feel comfortable enough with the other members to be himself just yet, so he acts just as they would expect someone like him to act on a regular basis. If you pay attention, you’ll catch him telling on himself a lot. Bragging about his attributes, almost always reverting back to his sexual nature, and etc. The only person who could see through him was Husk and Angel wasn’t exactly ready for that. He wasn’t ready for someone to see him as more than a pornstar all of a sudden or to be disgusted with his facade. Valentino is definitely an abusive piece of crap but Angel has to realize that there are something’s that be brings upon himself. Like Husk’s rejection of him at first or Charlie being attentive to Sir Pentious instead of Angel because Pen actually participated in Charlie’s activities as opposed to downplaying her efforts. Angel Dust is a complex character, one who I think is pretty fine the way he is. I hope he’ll definitely have some character arcs though, just to make him more mature and possibly an even better character.

[@aceyd9299]

I agree. He's appropriately flawed. The people saying he's bad representation or that he's a badly written character because he harassed Husk seem to want him to be a perfect victim.

[@aceyd9299]

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[@aceyd9299]

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[@aceyd9299]

Fgvcvh

[@galacticghostie]

Angel became a bad character after he lost his hat... And I stand by that.

[@SaintofStone]

#Bringbackthehat

[@The_C_]

you pointing out what could have been suddenly makes me yearn for a better hazbin hotel. angel was genuinely the only character i cared about when the pilot came out and they squandered him somehow. does viviene not know what makes her characters appealing?

[@KrookedKlown-kl5tk]

I love Angel. Hes one of my top 3. But the way he was handled even I wasnt 100% onboard. Its fine to portray a charcter as an likeable asshole. But you gotta give us SOMETHING good.

[@good-sofa]

I feel like the biggest problem with both of Viv's shows is pacing, it feels like she doesn't know what is the important part of the story that needs the time to get dedicated to it. For example the last episode of Helluva Boss just pushes the most important and interesting part to the very end and then ties it up so fast that i didn't even get to feel anything in time and was basically left not understanding what the shit just happened, the same way Blitzø did. You could say that it was intentional but it didn't feel like it

[@Kiraisdrawing]

As someone who’s been.. almost SA’d and manipulated by that same person and touched, angel isn’t a good representation (in my opinion). I think this because my situation wasn’t as severe and yet now every time I see someone with short maroon hair or smell what they smell like, I start to feel uncomfortable and scared. It isn’t a good representation, but they tried

[@laineywright2071]

Well, it is a good representation for some people. Everybody has different experiences and different responses.

[@RootOfAllEvil-666]

Not everyone has the same reactions to trauma as you!!! I’m sorry for whatever you went through but I’ve met people like Angel who’ve reacted to their trauma just like he does, why is he a bad rep just because his reaction wasn’t like yours?

[@cassandraspoelhof3752]

Episode 4 is my favorite… as hard as it is to watch. Great action in the penultimate scene, Chaggie cuteness sprinkled in that shows just how deeply they love each other, and some genuinely hilarious moments that always make me bust laughing… But then you have the strongest written parts of the episode and they’re utterly heartbreaking The hardest scene to watch IMO is the scene in Angel’s dressing room after Charlie accidentally started a fire in the studio. It’s to the point now that when I watch the episode as the scene ends just after Val forcefully drags Angel out of the dressing room, I always have to pause the episode and calm myself down because I’m sobbing so hard during the scene. And then you have the music video for Poison, (and just the song in general), showing very openly just what poor Angel is constantly subjected to pretty much on a daily basis. It’s my favorite song from the show despite how heartbreaking it is because it is genuinely still such 🔥 and is just amazing to listen to. Then you have Angel’s mental breakdown after getting back to the hotel and unsuccessfully trying to flirt with Husk. He’s been working under Valentino for so long and he is so used to being used for his body that he thinks it’s the only worthwhile thing about him. Finally there’s Angel’s breakdown to Husk outside the bar after Husk saves Angel from getting roofied. Tensions between these two had hit their boiling point, three strikes and you’re out. The first time Husk called Angel fake he brushed it off. The second time he blew up at Husk and Husk called his bluff, leading to his mental breakdown where he talks about his body in a self degrading manner because it’s what he’s so used to doing or having done to him. The third time he finally breaks down and opens up to Husk about his trauma, something that just moments before he incredulously said he wasn’t going to do because of how Husk had treated him. Sorry this is such a long comment I have ADHD so I tend to ramble on and on often, especially for something I’m passionate about such as Masquerade for it’s brilliant story telling. It’s both heartwarming and heartbreaking with occasional hilarious moments to help lighten the mood a bit before hitting you with another devastating gut punch.

[@centralanime2131]

Where has bro been?😭

[@Krossxc]

I've been posting again since January

[@Avery1357girlsrulebit-tj4sl]

Oh I *AM* obsessed with angel, and we found out WHY he acts this way in episode 4 by being abused by Valentino, he feels as though that if he DOESN’T act this way, he will get abused by Val.

[@Bb-bg8gf]

Before season 1 release, I was watching a lot of hunicast streams by ashley nicols. Actors of pilot hazbin were making skits and other funny interactions in their roles and I based a lot of expectations about original show from these streams. Angel was not only a horny sex worker, he was a goofy sweet guy that had normal friendly relationships with other hotel workers. I was so disapointed what they did to him in official show

[@Krossxc]

Yeah, I only ever saw bits and pieces of those streams, but I definitely believe that having the VAs attend in character affected a lot of people's viewing experience in a similar way.

[@MostPretentiousMusicNerd-ux3ln]

In general, the problem the show has, that wasn't really in the pilot is the concept of telling the viewer everything straight in the face. Mainly the dialogue. There is almost no space for you to interpret something because everything is so on the nose. Someone is depressed? They will straight up say it. Someone has a flaw? The character themselves or someone else will straight up say it and that's really sad, because the characters would be genuinely interesting if not for the fact that we do not have to think about them

[@drummingwithnate9709]

Im obsessed with Angel Dst help

[@Mikach066]

sorry to ask this.. but doesnt angel dust technically deserve the hell he goes through daily? since.. you know.. Hes in HELL??.. (more of a conceptual issue. and i mean no offense to SA victims)

[@sprayz390]

something that i noticed is that angel in the pilot almost doesn’t seem like he knows val. tbh, angel in the pilot could be years before val’s abuse. i remember watching angel and almost panicking while watching him stand up to val "why’d he do that?! he’ll be so mad at you?!" but if one of my friends was in danger of my abuser. i’d put my self at risk of a beat down in a heartbeat.

[@HikasCorner]

Oh wait 17:58 Last video by you I watched was the "exploring my gender through anime" video a while ago, so it's good to know you go by she/her now (unless you don't and I misheard, If I did feel free to correct me)

[@Krossxc]

Yeah, I go by she/her or they/them now, but I kinda prefer she/her

[@HikasCorner]

@@Krossxc She/Her it is!

[@buriedinthestars]

i agree with most of this. angel just comes off so (purposely) mean where he really wasn’t before?

[@Avery1357girlsrulebit-tj4sl]

I just realized… those aren’t gloves on Angels lower arms… omfg..

[@Devi_Plays]

I think this is mostly because the writers didn't know if they would get a second season considering its a indie project, and also if you look at Viv's story boards from a while back there was supposed to be 12-14 episodes but because of prime video's 8 video per season policy, Viv didn't know if her show would set off so they had to rush character development, cause plots to feel even more rushed and confusing, and this is why some characters seem to have little character development. (also the fact it seems Viv wants to be the only one directing the story which makes sense, its her show, but she doesn't take any criticism, and or other peoples ideas to help her story seem more thought through, and the fact they had 4 years to work on this shows that she really just didn't take ANYONE'S ideas to help with the episodes, and before someone goes "oh well it takes a long time" yeah it does but now were getting a second season in just a few months or next year. so we really could have had influence if she let us) Because of how rushed the show was, things like tone, and scripts couldn't really be fixed because that would be a long time of fixing the animations, and the voice actor filming itself. But then again, they had 4 years Honestly Hazbin has a LOT of issues, but I'm hoping for season 2 they take things a little more slowly and not make characters feel rushed, and maybe hope Viv starts listening to the thousands of people who gave BETTER plot lines and character arch's than her show did, I mean all she has to do is go on KZbin and search up "hazbin hotel problems" and you'd get HUNDREDS of videos like these.

[@VastlyVesper]

i think the angel episode does some form of time skip but you are absolutely right. I have gone through a bunch of bullying and harassment at school and it took my best friend and months of opening up to my friends to stand up for myself. But also i can somewhat relate to Angel's trauma (not completely but being sexually harassed at any scale and being genuinely scared to tell anyone)

[@wuba5456]

okay well he IS my favourite character so holding my breath

[@anchyi1202]

Your main issue with this is simple: you see only *Angel Dust*, but not *Anthony*. Angel Dust is a persona Anthony created, to let him be so loose he'd forget all his troubles. The reason Angel Dust is uncomfortable, overbearing, slutty and arrogant is because Anthony is hurting too much to a point that this became his survival technique. Hurting others is still not his goal, but he is right about Charlie's naive nature to help sinners without knowing what even brings them to Heaven in the first place! The Angel Dust in pilot did not have any depth to him, he was just a shell of who they've created later on.

[@Jfb222]

Don’t know what you’re talking about my man.i love Adam

[@Lethargy_Lottie]

A critique of Angel Dust? Lord have mercy, don’t show VivziePop this or you’ll be on a missing persons list soon ( ㄕཀ ʖ̯ ཀ)

[@NUMEROVER]

Let's get this guy to 40k

[@Sand-ct4zj]

finally someone gets it

[@sailorstar3148]

And some people have their own thoughts about this show, whether we agree or disagree I’m just glad that there’s people that are actually giving their opinions and not hating.

[@Nicholas_is_my_name]

14:11 No that's definitely what the show should have been about considering the premise of the hotel 🫤

[@BLIND_BEAR]

Thank u for this fr

[@VEGA_173]

i don't like Hazbin/helluva very much (or at all tbh) but i genuinely feel like the pilot of Hazbin was better written than the entirety of both shows combined

[@Alexpepolarrssii]

Also a little fact for you, Vivziepop hired the artist that drew the poison music video even after knowing that they had a sa fetish

[@LylaRoseLucero]

I'll never feel anything for him because he did it to himself he willingly sold half of his soul to valentino.. So why should I care? He's not real anyway and I freaking *HATE* spiders. I hate them 😢 (」ﾟﾛﾟ)｣ᴺᴼᴼᴼᴼᴼ~ALSO! He sexually assaulted husk.. That's another reason why I don't feel anything for him... He was a bad person on earth too.. And he's very immature and ik he's a porn star.. But he acts like sex is his first priority and yknow that lyric in poison? "And I can only blame myself" well... He can. Because he did it :3

[@Doejrk]

Just a little nugget, as much as it’s interesting to see the abused take their frustrations out by deploying the same tactics as their abuser (& not realizing how damaging it is), it’s done in a way where nobody else seems to give af too deeply, and it’s played off. Now, again, with Husker, I know he’s the only one who cares slightly more than the other cast members, but it just seems like his whole musical bit was to say “I’ve been in a similar situation before, and I’m not as whiny as you, so deal with it”. Now realistically, if you hang around someone you find annoying and overstepping, you tend to just exclude them slowly, abruptly cut them out, or talk to them about it, but everybody, who isn’t Charlie or Husk, just acts like that treatment doesn’t matter and goes back to normal. We need FOILS people, if you’re going to have your cast ignore him, maybe set it up where he slowly gets isolated, and his social wall actually works, only for him to regret it. Just ANYTHING other than normalizing his behavior.

[@Barakon]

Want pilot Angel dust? Watch TADC & specifically watch it for Jax.

[@hyomin_live_4_heichou]

Jax is more like show Angel than pilot Angel ngl

[@Barakon]

@@hyomin_live_4_heichou But he’s intentionally made to be an ass because he’s bored, & they still got Kovach’s dry & snide delivery.

[@hyomin_live_4_heichou]

@@Barakon Yea but Jax’s intentions seem more malicious than unintentional to me. He’s fully aware that he’s mean, and just doesn’t give a crap about it.

[@Barakon]

@@hyomin_live_4_heichou but hey, being a jerk on purpose because he’s bored & trapped somewhere with no exit is better then purposefully liking to watch people squirm because they like perpetuating some sort of cycle of abuse so they feel less helpless…y’a know…Jax is still sort of likeable, in terms of being a fun villain to hate. However Angel Dust is more just idk, kinda gross to watch? At least for Kross here. It’s still about doing it because they think it’s funny more than because they think it’s cathartic or even sensual. You don’t get the impression that Jax is doing it to get off to people’s anguish like they’re a worshipper of Slannesh. Jakeneutron has a song called Jax toy that summarizes my point, even if I may concede & agree that it is more like the show’s depiction of Angel Dust in terms of cruelty. But it’s just that Jax kept the “doing it for the lols cuz they’re bored” part intact.

[@hyomin_live_4_heichou]

@@Barakon I suppose he does do it for fun, but my impression was he does it for a mix of entertainment and just for the sake of being a jerk(especially towards Ragatha, god bless that poor woman). I do agree that Jax is more likable if I had to compare between him and show Angel(though that’s probably just me, lol). Don’t get me wrong, I don’t say this because I dislike Jax, I think he’s a really likable character who’s just morally flawed.