A Discussion of Rod Dreher's Live Not By Lies

[@feeble_stirrings]

49:03 - Sin warps perception. I say that as someone who's experience this first hand. In a season of my life where I had drifted from God and given into numerous sins, the way I saw God, the world and myself became distorted. Things that I would have never believed or thought when I was attempting to live faithfully, seemed to begin to 'make sense' in a surreal way. It's not unlike drifting into an unpleasant dream where you know something isn't quite right, but you can't quite seem to rouse yourself to wakefulness to escape it. It's a frightening thing when you stop and think about it. Brings home why it's so important to remain vigilant over our hearts and minds and not to let the 'little foxes' have free rein because they can quickly become ravenous beasts.

[@logicaredux5205]

I am most grateful that you are sharing these observations Dr. Cooper. I could say it is timely but it is probably well past time that we take what is happening around us seriously. A couple of observations: First, I don’t think the idea that it is better to focus preaching to your congregation about sin “in here” as opposed to “out there” is helpful. In fact, if you can recognize what is going on “out there,” it is a pretty safe bet it is already “in here” too. When you notice parishioners praising your sermon, it might have to do with gladness that you are seeing what they do and not because the focus is off them. It all matters. Second, I personally am less confused about why corporations seem to be going along with all the nuttiness. It may seem perplexing trying to figure out who is the dog in this hunt, who is the tail and who is wagging who, but at the bottom this is all about the desire to radically change our society for their aggrandizement of power. When you move into the use of oppressive corporate power over people, you are moving into the realm of Fascism. In this case, I believe what we are actually seeing is that the Fascists are the power and that they are using the Marxists as their “useful idiots.”

[@arthurbrugge2457]

Regarding your first point; I think Cooper was simply being critical of preachers/pastors pandering to their listeners by "preaching" about all the evils done by "those over there", and using their pulpit for exposition on political disagreements, instead of what they are supposed to be doing; Law and Gospel. I think we can agree that, say, a 40 minutes long "preaching" about this or that political party or representative, and how evil they are for supporting abortion, misses the mark on the role of a preacher/pastor. Such a political "exposition" to a group who will totally agree (as I'm sure we both would), often just ends up being pandering fluff. People need good, solid teaching on their Faith, not talking points taken from Fox. Even if said talking points are correct🙂

[@logicaredux5205]

@@arthurbrugge2457 The Prophets confronted the kings of Israel and Judah. John the Baptist confronted Herod and lost his head for it. The political realm does not lie outside the preaching of the Law. I would agree that it is generally unnecessarily to mention a name or a party when dealing with the substance. But I think we would all have wished that German Lutheran Pastors had called out Hitler and the Nazis by name rather than largely becoming card carrying members and later claiming they had no idea. Wouldn’t you agree? I’m not putting any particular people under the scalpel when I suggest that the Lutheran habit of silence toward what is happening around us and using zeal to apply Law and Gospel to individual hearers in the congregation might be motivated more by personal cowardice rather than good theology.

[@logicaredux5205]

This is how a Lutheran pastor should preach: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXOziISQnNyNlc0

[@gagegarlinghouse258]

There's a very real chance that if I spoke up about what I actually believed at my college, I would lose every bit of funding they've given me, and could possibly just be kicked out. Even on the internet, where I do say some beliefs of mine, I have to be very careful with my choice of language and presentation. It's a grim reality, made even more so by the fact that to get where I want to be, I have to keep silent.

[@kathyboraas1493]

It is tempting to be quiet to get where one wants to be but does that mean that when we get there we will do the same...toe the line so as not to lose our positions and just be one more yes man? I am afraid it will be a habit and attitude that will be hard to break.

[@philmattox8500]

@@kathyboraas1493 I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian. As such I am pretty conservative on theology in way of life. However I am middle of the road moderate left if I have to use those terminologies. However even so I have to be very careful as I get very hard blowback from the right. I almost lost two very good friends in the last election when they found out I voted for Joe Biden. One of them was very vociferous and it was very hurtful. So let's be clear here given the extremely polarized nature of our society where we are never sure that we can have a polite discussion of positions even among Christians for some of us it is better just to keep our mouths shut. I speak from experience and the vitriol although very genuine and Dr Cooper rightly calls it out is not just on the Looney left or just the loony right but people who otherwise seem to have opinions that for the most part I would agree with except for a few. But I suppose that is a few too many. But like another commenter said I really love this channel. Dr Cooper is very even handed in all his comments. As we Orthodox would say God Grant Him Many Years.

[@jerseyjim9092]

Tough position to be in. Going along to get along.

[@philmattox8500]

@@jerseyjim9092 Not really. I believe one one of the Apostles spoke against those who would bring dissention in the church. I will not knowingly do that. Neither will I risk friendships due to political or religious differences. But I do vote. Talking, demonstrating, incivility, thoughts and prayers et cetera allows the foolish to think they are doing something to make the world a better place. It is all vanity unless you vote. And I do vote.

[@lauradav2]

Same with where I work. The only protection I have is choosing to not be public about who they are.

[@sierragrey7910]

Excellent episode. Thankfully, the theonomists are a small percentage of Presbyterian and Reformed church, though experiencing new growth due to Doug Wilson, et al. My own denomination, the URCNA, falls very much in line with how you describe the church and politics. Thank you for the discussion danger of the social justice issue. It is indeed a question of our children’s salvation. We are being placed in a position that we must fight against what has been brought to us through politics. I am aware of two young adults in my very small church who have abandoned their faith after exposure to secularism.

[@danbrown586]

You say, and I'm inclined to agree, that the church would be out of bounds to tell its people, "you must vote for X." Would you believe the church is also out of bounds to tell its people, "you may not (i.e., it is sin to) vote for Y"?

[@br8745]

Maybe. I think the problem is it goes both ways, and you get into a "gradients of sin/evil" moment. I think the problem is focusing on politics in general. I follow the Andrew Breitbart and Jason Whitlock view of things. Andrew Breitbart made the point that politics is downstream from culture, so you have to focus on changing the culture. Jason Whitlock, similarly, makes the point that you can't just vote problems away. Electing someone with an R instead of a D in front of their name is going to magically fix everything. So my view is the the church is much better off in a proactive role, promoting itself, views and values and opposed to trying to win elections in a reactive way. Just my thoughts though.

[@philmattox8500]

I have a feeling that we would not be exactly oriented in the same direction politically. However I agree with you wholeheartedly that the church should speak the truth boldly and vigorously. However no minister should tell any parishioner how to vote. That is something the parishioner should decide taking in mind all that the priest / pastor has said and as the parishioner feels how God has led them.

[@danbrown586]

@@philmattox8500 "No minister should tell any parishoner how to vote." Assuming (since that was my question) this includes how *not* to vote, why not? Ignoring IRS restrictions for the moment (and the TikTok meme encouraging people to report churches to the IRS if they think the churches have violated them), why should that subject be categorically off-limits? Why is it out of bounds for a minister to say, "literally every significant part of this party's position is sinful, and it's therefore sin to vote for this party"?

[@philmattox8500]

@@danbrown586 When the priest/minister is preaching the faith that is sufficient. The Holy Spirit will do the rest.

[@danbrown586]

@@philmattox8500 Exegesis of scripture without application isn't preaching; it's only teaching. Does "the faith" not have application outside the home and the church? And if it does, why should the minister not preach that application?

[@cwstreeper]

Thank you Dr. Cooper for discussing this subject. As a Social Studies teacher in a public high school I live with constant fear of loosing my job because of my beliefs. My students know that I volunteer as a chaplain and am an ordained minister. While I do not proselytize in my classroom, my students know that my faith informs my worldview. This has led to a few confrontations with students, families and administrators... but it is important to stand firm and persevere in our faith. What does it benefit a man to gain the world and loose his soul? (Matt 16:26) If I must loose my job to preserve my faith, then so be it. It's a sad state of affairs that this nation is in currently and indeed, a very difficult one for the Church to wrestle with. I look forward to your continued insight and reflections on this topic.

[@arthurbrugge2457]

Can you please elaborate on your situation? Do you have some yearly evaluation where it might be a problem, or just in general? I have seen such situations, and they can be very tricky. I believe you have a good and righteous attitude. I wish you all well.

[@cwstreeper]

@@arthurbrugge2457 Sure... I have not been dinged on any formal evaluations, I've been counseled several times. It's been mostly over the past few years as the phenomenon of transgenderism, aka gender disphoria, contines to gain popularity. I've been counceled for refusal to attend or participate in training on that issue. I've been counseled for not including my (preferred pronouns) in my email signature a few times. I've been counceled for referring to trans kids as "this student," "your student/child," etc. I almost got fired for suggesting to a parent & their student that they should seek some counseling... without even knowing they were a trans kid, just observing them struggling. (Nothing I haven't done before). I could go on... One day I may get fired. If they ever read my blog, watch my KZbin channel, or attend one of my speaking engagements, I'm certain it'll happen. 🙄 Does that answer your question?

[@arthurbrugge2457]

@@cwstreeper That sounds terrible. It's crazy that we are in a situation where you have to make considerations like that. Thank you for sharing your experience.

[@aaronh8095]

I’m watching this before I watch Jordan Peterson’s discussion with Rod Dreher. I find it interesting how you and him talk about so much similar stuff despite your different areas of expertise and how different your work and worldviews are. I know it’s just a pipe dream, but I would love to see a Jordan Cooper & Jordan Peterson discussion, especially considering how little Peterson seems to genuinely understand Protestantism, let alone Lutheranism.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

It's not impossible. He does follow me on Twitter, so who knows?

[@killingtime9283]

Jordan B. C and Jordan B. P, so similar yet still quite different. 🙂 It would be really interesting. 🙂 I think it would benefit Peterson (and other people as well) to see that there are Protestants that are very much rooted in the traditions of the church, in terms of liturgy, heiarchy, clothing, symbols, music, and architecture. These things seems to interest Peterson somewhat, and I'm getting the impression that alot of people think that if you like these things Protestantism is out, and Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism are your options.

[@j.harris83]

Whenever I pray about the future and what I should do and my family should do I keep hearing sanctification, mystical union, Theosis. Frustratingly enough this is the thing that all Christians have been called to at all times and in all places. Live not by lies is a long winded way of calling the church back to pursuing God with all its heart soul mind and strength for union with Christ before all things.

[@matthewlane2363]

Wonderfully stated at the beginning on the topic of that which is not inherently political has become political and there for the church is going to have to address the topics that have been politicized. Truman also says this in his recent work. "Marx's thought is an early and influential harbinger: the abolition of the pre-political. In seeing the identity of human beings as constituted by economic relations and in regarding history as a political struggle determined by economic relations, Marx makes all intentional human activity political. Everything, from religious organizations to the structure of the family is politicized. There is no private pre-political space in Marx's world. And that is now basic to the world of today where all things are politicized, from kindergartens and Girl Scout troops to adoption agencies, sports teams, and pop music." - Truman "The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self" pg. 197

[@yucafries7681]

When I lived in NYC my pastor had a husband and an open marriage and was on Grindr. Nice guy but not much gospel going on there. Lots of social justice. MLK was too conservative for the congregation. Nonetheless being a regular Herero white man who just wanted to commune, I didn’t fit in. Politics is just the democracy you don’t agree with. Political involvement is outside the purview of the church imo. The Eucharist is the most important function of the church. Nothing should subvert it. I love this channel

[@aniolelseer7199]

Yeah, that is unfortunate.

[@vngelicath1580]

I like your point on not binding consciences to or against a certain economic policy. There are just as many faithful, orthodox, confessional Christians who support Social Democratic (New Deal-esque) welfare systems as there are opponents of such a thing. Carl Trueman, the extremely conservative OPC minister is a good example in the States, as are many European Lutherans with which we are in full communion. This was the point Walther was making when he said the Missourians were allowed to disagree over party differences and remain one fellowship. The issue now is not a party system where both sides agree on the goals but disagree on the means -- we have polar opposite societal teloses.

[@RyanOlander]

I want to thank you for your preliminary renarks and assertions of the role of Christians and the church can and should navigate the political landscape. Though I disagree with you whether one should give the likes of dreher or Peterson the time of day, it is refreshing to hear someone place the faith as the priority and subject poltucs and social matters to it. I am curious if you had planned to cover Lutheran social teaching at some point? I think that would be very helpful and informative to Christians of today.

[@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737]

@RyanOlander what's wrong with Dreher. Are his solutions uncomfortable for people attracted and enslaved to modernity

[@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737]

@RyanOlander who are you to say that Jordan Peterson one of the foremost intellectuals should not be given the time. You like all Americans have been attracted to political correctness and have lost the ability to listen to hard truths. It's insanity for you. Americans can enjoy in their deluded version of reality. It's not going to be communism but it's going to be a technocratic Totalitarianism. And you can eat the bugs and enjoy tyranny. Trust your favourite leftist intellectuals. Dreher and Peterson are discerning , your not or you love Totalitarianism.

[@capturedbyannamarie]

I really appreciate this very thoughtfully made video. ❤ It’s nice to have other Christians thoughts on these issues. I don’t watch any shows either just old movies, and some old shows.

[@arthurbrugge2457]

I think your cultural takes and criticisms are very on point and interesting. I have a family member who studied for a degree related to social work, and all of the subjects were constantly crammed full of "marxist perspectives" on this or that - in addition to the "socialist perspectives". Didn't have stalinist or nazi perspectives at least; maybe not quite as fashionable among the spoiled, upper class professors 😃 Your point about the WASPy crowd is my own experience. No one where I live is more into CRT, marxism, etc, than the white, upper middle-class people who live in isolated conclaves, where no black person is to be found, and where no working class man can ever afford to live.

[@bionicmosquito2296]

Very good analysis of our situation. One critique: the critics are right when they say there is no such thing as cultural Marxism. Marx’s work was based on production - the workers uniting against the owners. This is not at all the situation in the West today. What is happening today should be called cultural Gramsci-ism, after Antonio Gramsci. He was also a communist, but understood that communism could not come to the West - where the workers and owners shared a common culture and the worker were not impoverished as they were in Russia - via production. He knew that the lower classes had to invent an entirely new culture, overthrowing the old. There are several good videos and essays on this topic. It is Gramsci, not Marx, that provides the means. But their end goal is the same.

[@zagreuskane7435]

Should read Carl Schmitt - Political Theology. A lot of the ideas in it are hitting the mainstream

[@judithtaylor6713]

This is very lively and informative. You’ve surpassed your early tormentors for sure.

[@leonpope861]

The word Politic is synonymous with the word Wise,it is also synonymous with the word ex- pedient.Expedient is synonymous with the idiom in one's own interests 📖

[@janiswoods9248]

I don’t know how I can vote for either party.

[@cwstreeper]

I was at one point a Libertarian but I gave up on even that because it conflicted too much with my faith. Today I remain politically independent, aligned to Christ only.

[@arthurbrugge2457]

@@cwstreeper I think you made the right move. My experience is that some are wed to the political positions contained in modern conservatism and can't see how some of them might interfere with their dedication to Christ. The same can be said of the left, but most who hold to extreme leftist ideas are not even Christians to begin with, so it makes little difference.

[@killingtime9283]

live not by lies, or give not false witness. it all comes back to basics in the end. 🙂 When I get too bogged down in "What to do!?" politically, I find C.S Lewis "Meditation on the third commandment" useful, where the conclusion is that, in a democratic system, the best thing a Christian can do is to simply Convert his neighbor. Which is what we should be doing anyway. 🙂

[@runtheptnite]

I've heard Dave Rubin reference this book often. I didn't know that it offered a Christian perspective. Sounds intriguing.

[@NB-qo4ds]

You should watch Mendelssohn's Elijah oratorio if you can find a recording.

[@tulsajhawk]

Very good video! Thank you!

[@mudfloodwasarmageddon]

You could be more predictable but I don't know how.

[@michaelkistner6286]

Is it helpful to frame errors as lies? That seems to be part of what is plaguing us at present. I think rather in terms of deception. I've resolved not to practice nor accept deception. The problem is my penchant for self-deception. That one is really difficult. Whether or not I'm willing to admit it, I've always got a dog in the fight. How much does that bias affect my thinking? After all, who wants to be wrong? What this has created for me is a concrete way of doing something, even if only at a tiny scale, about what's going on. I can't change the world. But I can try at least to live with integrity. Yes this has a cost but it isn't the loss of friends or respect. It's the sacrifice of gain obtainable through deception. That gain can be status, reputation, power, money, influence etc. In other words all the things my culture places at the top of the value hierarcy. Choosing not to game the system when everyone else is doing so is is hard.

[@restoredandrecovered7380]

Great video!

[@cameron4339]

Are you a Orthodox Lutheran?

[@dancorson5822]

Good book, good review.

[@willkietzman1121]

I just looked and wow, cultural marxism has been scrubed in an effort to label it as a therory; however, if you use a database, you can find a lot of articles on it. The earliest I found was from 1983.

[@davida.bishop4024]

What about the Trump coup?

[@DrJordanBCooper]

What about it? I'm not a Trump fan, and Dreher isn't either.

[@aniolelseer7199]

Holy smokes Tron! This is in depth video on Marxism and on civil government. :)

[@frankblazkiewicz2636]

Closing people's bank accounts by fiat government power is not soft totalitarianism.

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

How so?

[@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737]

@FrankBlazkiewicz people like you kept Denying the warning signs of communism in Russia and people suffered. Are you a leftist

[@matthewschneider8075]

I think pastors are going to be forced into the “culture warrior” position in the very near future.

[@kylemckinney_22]

If anything thought this book was good I also recommend Nihilism: The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age by Fr seraphim rose.

[@michaelkistner6286]

In his list of thinkers shaping the current culture, Freud, Marx, and Darwin, the omission of Neitzsche is startling. The whole shift from morals to values comes from him, as does the pursuit of power as the sumum bonum.

[@craigdgriffiths6206]

A Lutheran reviewing a book by a Christian. Imagine a world without religion. I feel that we just need to treat each other with kindness, regardless of race or religion.

[@andrewjenson1918]

A world without religion is hell.

[@logicaredux5205]

A Lutheran reviewing a book by a Christian?

[@ReformCath26]

Lutheran’s are Christian’s my guy

[@paulblase3955]

Have you looked into the current situation of the people being held prisoner for participating in the Jan 6 2021 episode in the Capital building? Fits pretty much every definition of "political prisoner". Most of them have not been able to see their lawyers, the Democratic Congress is implementing Stalinist show trials. We're getting there, we're getting there.

[@philmattox8500]

I disagree entirely. Those who merely entered the Capitol Building are trespassers. Those who were trying to subvert a Constitutional process were part of a seditious conspiracy to overthrow the Government.

[@paulblase3955]

@@philmattox8500 Who was trying to "subvert a Constitutional process"? Look at the actual coverage (preferably not on the main-stream media). The original rally (which is what President Trump was promoting) in front of the Capital was completely peaceful and intended to convince the Congressional representatives to _remember_ their Constitutional duties. You certainly will recall from Civics 101 that the Senators represent the states, not the Federal government; that the president is elected by the states, not the popular vote (thus the electoral collage); and that the Congress does not need to ratify the vote if it thinks that there was any irregularities. That there were irregularities is beyond a doubt, just see Mollie Hemingway's "Rigged" and D'Souza's "2000 Mules".

[@paulblase3955]

@@philmattox8500 The nonsense in the back of the Capital - separate from the rally in front, 1) was largely the actions of FBI instigators (again, widely reported) and 2) had the approval of the Capital Police, who let the people in. Yes some Trump supporters were sucked in, and I make no excuse for the idiots that actually broke things, but no Congressional representative was remotely in danger. I will also ask you to compare what happened here to previous "actions" by Democrat supporters which were very similar in result but never referred to as an "insurrection"! It's pretty clear that this whole event is nothing more than a political stunt by the Washington insiders to punish President Trump for having the temerity to challenge their power.