A Failure On Every Level: Avengers

[@PRAISE_HASHUT]

In the U.K. in the early 2000s, Busiek’s amazing run on Avengers was reprinted and sold in newsagents marketed at a younger audience (comic shops aren’t/weren’t massive things over here and a lot of marvel comics find the younger audience through this reprint marketing). They often included a vintage issue as a back up feature. I remember reading this one as a teenager as a backup feature in one such reprint and was confused by the stark contrast to Carol’s brilliant character arc in the Busiek run. Now as an adult, it feels even worse with its rampant misogyny, utter meaninglessness and mistreatment of a character who at times had been marketed as Marvel’s answer to Wonder Woman. Glad to see that behind the scenes, even at the time, it was called out for what it was - absolute bollucks.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

6:42 I didn't know that ol' saying: "Success has many parents, while failure is an orphan" 9:46 I didn't know Chris Claremont wrote Carol Danver's first solo series 11:00 So this is basically the reason why Carol Danvers basically became an X-Men during the 80s

[@Sorrelhas]

Much like a child, a comic book has many parents, and a pint of blood costs more than a gallon of gold

[@32french]

and pretty certain this led to Rouge stealing her powers

[@esean1]

Slight correction: This story was inked by Dan Green. I remember reading this issue and thinking "WTH did I just read?" and then "Somebody at Marvel must really hate Ms. Marvel". Seriously, they couldn't just write her out of the book in one of their regular roster shuffles?

[@SteveCrafts2k]

No, not _that_ Dan Green, in case anyone is tilting their heads.

[@allenrubinstein3696]

It's flabbergasting that rooms full of adults didn't even have pause at just the impact of the physical act of birthing a child. They never considered these characters to be representing flesh and blood human beings. They were plastic action figures-- pop out a magic baby and keep right on fighting bad guys. Sure, why not? When did Spider-Man ever need months of physical therapy to recover from muliple broken bones? I mean, it's pretty plain that in the seventies and eighties the majority of mainstream writing by Marvel/DC was pounded out and hacky. Nobody talks like that; nobody acts like that; nobody's life is like that, obviously. When you're dealing with that level of disconnect, sure stuff like this is going to happen. You're just cranking out "event". Thing is, Claremont actually cared... Byrne cared, Wolfman cared, Miller cared. That's why they were the best. They let themselves experience their fictional worlds and identify with their characters' life experience.

[@rackstraw]

Proof positive that even talented creators turn out garbage from time to time.

[@KasumiKenshirou]

There was a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode called "The Child" with a very similar plot, minus the incestuous romance stuff. It has a mysterious accelerated pregnancy, and then the child continues to age rapidly, and it turns out it was an alien. This script actually predates Avengers #200, having been written for a previous Star Trek TV series (Phase II) that ended up not happening, and being dusted off for TNG due to a writers' strike. Did anyone at Marvel see this script? Marvel also had a Star Trek comic around the time of Avengers #200.

[@mrhypnagogia]

Claremont bringing Danvers into the x men to protect her is the most macho Pedro Pascal daddy thing ever. What a hero of a guy

[@JosephCantu-qq1yr]

The first comic run I started reading began with avengers 181 when I was in kindergarten and first grade I remember getting the issue 200 and just kind of feeling grossed out for a reason I couldn't explain. then came the destruction of yellow jacket character, then my two favorite character is the vision in Scarlet Witch would separated and ruined. Good times

[@gagnose26]

Carol eventually called all the Avengers out for this in a single badass moment

[@awesometuck1559]

You mean in Avengers Annual #10 by Chris Claremont, which is mentioned in the video?

[@taylors1369]

I remember reading this as a teen in the 90's. I found it at comic book shop and was like ooo 200th issue. And thought wtf when I got it home and read it. At least Claremont treated her better when she returned and told the Avengers to drop dead after this for a while.

[@lizardart99]

What the actual hell is this issue? Only finished the series of distasteful events, but i just need to voice my confusion at this comic.

[@nilus2k]

I didn’t start collecting comic until 1989, I was inspired by a little movie starring a guy dressed as a flying rat, but I soon discovered the X-Men in my local comic shop. I was the type of kid who wanted to know “the whole story” so not only did I try to hunt down all the back issues I could, I also followed those editors notes and got related works. So by the early 90s I think I had read Avengers 2000 and even pre-teen me at that time thought it was completely f’d up. I had seen enough of Claremont’s take on Carol by the point in X-Men and Miss Marvel books and it was a complete betrayal of very cool character. I am kinda glad they never retconned it though because I feel like it really feeds her arc going forward. If it just went away it would betray the character she became and the relationships she had formed. Plus it would let the rest of the Avengers off the hook for their part in it. One of my comic pride in joys is my complete X-Men Claremont run. It was expensive to complete and I got a lot of very famous issues in “ungraded” quality because I couldn’t afford better but I always regretted not getting more Miss Marvel comics. Then in 2004 I met my future wife, who also collected comics in her youth and her favorite comic was Miss Marvel and had a complete run. The moment I heard that I knew she was the one. In an even more fun twist the story my wife is Pakistani American and for years lamented about the lack of representation in comics, so needless to say we are huge fans of Kamala Khan, at least when Marvel isn’t killing her off for shock value in a Spider-man book.

[@kingbeauregard]

This is why I like the idea of the occasional Superboy Punch! where Superboy-Prime punches the multiverse and knocks bad continuity out of existence. Every so often, Superboy should show up at Uatu's home and say "Hi, is it that time again?" and Uatu sighs and nods. Then Superboy punches the universe, everything shakes for a second, and then Uatu tells us which comics and events are no longer in continuity. "Avengers 200 and that whole pregnancy storyline ... ? Didn't happen."

[@ANIpJs]

Reading this from a long box I picked up from a resale shop. This story endeared me to Carol Danvers, I've always liked her. And yes this extends to the movie version, which in case you didn't know or see this. But that first movie of hers has some rather significant parallels to this story. Her being a brainwashed and manipulated by a man trying to get what he needs. They kinda did with this storyline what they did with Tony's demon in a bottle story. Imply that's the case but don't go into the darker parts of addiction or abuse.

[@carloscrecelius9597]

I remember when this story first came out. I wondered why the Avengers were ok with Carol basically being raped, and then deciding to marry her "son". This story was wrong on so many levels. Worse than Hank slapping Jan.

[@alexnejako777]

the art is pretty in places sad because it was at the end of George Perez great run. Read the issues before it for great Perez and Byrne art.

[@carloscrecelius9597]

@@alexnejako777 nobody does team books like George Perez.

[@Hiro_Ramone]

Hell, its miles worse considering Pym slapping Jan was a culmination of a lot of meddling behind the scenes that led to the intention being misinterpret, they had an idea about what they wanted there and it was just unfortunately botched. This? I wonder how it got completed to begin with, giving any thought put into the simple idea of this comic existing should've raised one or two redflags

[@billybarnett2846]

She wasn't raped. Why does everyone jump to that? They were trying to do a Messiah story like Jesus. She didn't have physical sex.

[@V-wo8np]

@@billybarnett2846 7:34 - 7:44 How high are you right now?

[@uwucotc]

everytime you upload a vid i smile ,this is such a cursed comic and i cant understand how marvel gave a thumbs up so this could be released.

[@markshulusky6680]

I was in my early teens when the "Ms. Marvel is pregnant" story was published. It was ick/cringe/and everything else. The Avenger's lack of reaction was the only way to gloss over such an unpalatable event... but why set out to do such an unnecessary thing? The story idea was unsuitable for a wide audience comic and, itself, should have been vetoed before IT was conceived.

[@lexxstrum]

I always think that after Carol leaves with Markus (I always think this story is Korvak, for some reason), the Avengers are going shake their heads and be like "WTF Just happened?"; the story establishes Markus has tech that can override your mind and decisions, and it would fit his creeper vibe to give her the whole "my friends are supportive of this" scenario. Then they could have saved this storyline. But I guess I'm too progressive for something like that.

[@kingbeauregard]

The problem was the creative team, not the characters they were writing. Claremont correctly called out the bad attitudes behind the story, rather than come up with a retcon that spared misogynists a properly-earned reckoning. Seems pretty damn progressive to me.

[@javib2978]

This is before Scarlet Witch was derailed in the 2000's marvel era.

[@javib2978]

Scarlet Witch is one of the members to express disbelief in Avengers #200.

[@BleedingDinoLove]

Everything I hear about Clairemont makes me love him more.

[@juniorjames7076]

The '80s were hands down a Golden Age for Comics, and Chris Claremont and Marv Wolfman were titans in that era. Storylines were becoming more adult to compete with the independent publishers, the art was becoming more experimental while still maintaining tradition, all this while books were still relatively cheap (60 cents!). What an era.

[@nilus2k]

⁠@@juniorjames7076I feel like people forget a lot about how great the 80s were for DC. Teen Titans was especially a huge seller and had an amazing run

[@beans5307]

Babe wake up a new strange brain parts video was uploaded

[@StrangeBrainParts]

She or he or they sure do sleep a lot. You might want to get that looked at. :)

[@HailEarendil]

"Or they".. Now that's some cringe.

[@shoresean1237]

1 - I still can't get my head around the idea (among many from this I can't) that a 6-month old What If? derailed a major anniversary. On its best days ever, I doubt any issue of What If? has the readership of an Avengers' comic, let alone a milestone issue. 2 - For the longest time, I have had a solution to this mess: Marcus placed a mental whammy on the whole team. Moreover, he did this by tapping into Hank Pym's growing mental problems, creating the self-justifying fog that even the other women on the team fell into. Hell, The Beast should have been in with the deepest objectors, considering how many times he and the X-Men have been targeted by harvesting-types. They could even say doing this exacerbated Hank's problems, thus tying together the other WTF? moment of Shooter's run on the book. A small ray of hope in this mess - issue 201's opener has Hawkeye disbelieving that Carol chose to go off with Marcus - but that is all. Never brought up again, as we geared towards Hank's downfall a handful of issues later - where his excuses and justifications were rightly shot down real hard. Maybe the creepy feeling from having produced this story made them more sane on another abuse storyline.

[@abachniv]

You're way too nice to Shooter. Reading his blog entry about it is embarrassing. The buck stops with him and yet he pretends like he had zero to do with it, even though he was a well-known tyrant of an EIC.

[@jerr0.]

He was in charge of dozens of books and Avengers was in the lower-end sales wise. Makes sense that his attention would be on stuff like X-Men, Spider-Man, FF, She-Hulk, Star Wars, ect.

[@KasumiKenshirou]

I think people are too harsh on Shooter, but I agree with you on this. It was his job to stop stuff like this.

[@billybarnett2846]

Can't control everything. Easy to judge when a lot of you weren't even born yet. Hindsight is 20/20.

[@JosephCantu-qq1yr]

To be fair attitudes towards incest even way back in 1979 and 1980 were pretty similar to what they are today. I was a kid entering first grade and I knew the story was gross

[@floepiejane]

I recommend watching the 8 hour CBH interview with Shooter, and then the 3 hour supplement, and tell me if you feel the same.

[@penelopegreene]

Are you kidding me? I could have won a shopping spree at "Toys 'R' Us"!!!!!

[@armoghetto]

So so wrong on so many levels. Retroactively, they should’ve shown that Marcus manipulated everyone into their warped acceptance. It’s sad that the concept of a person being their own parent is even a thing, outside of cloning.

[@dansmith3085]

Thus was actually my first Avengers comic from a gifted subscription.

[@blackphoenix77]

I remember encountering Carol Strickland on the CBR forums and reading posts on her website in the early 2000s; I'm surprised that she never got approached by Marvel or DC because I think she could have written some amazing comics

[@JRussellDay]

Lol at 3:38 it very much looks like that knight is wearing shield themed earrings

[@harrybehemoth2751]

Have you ever read 'All You Zombies' by Robert Heinlein or seen the movie version called 'Predestination'? The main character is both their own father and mother.

[@marthademovimaus5140]

Heinelen's another sick puppy! Old boomers from the free-love hippy days thought humanity was going to discard all its moral "hang ups" .Their reaction to twisted ¡n(est plots like this was "oooo, far out, man, cosmic!".

[@TheWhmaxwell]

Excellent coverage although as said have already said in the comments, I bought this one off the rack in high school (Still a great cover) and thought WTF when I read that it. I honestly thought and still think, there must have been drugs involved in its writing. Anyway, thanks for covering it, not one of Marvel's best moments.

[@jerr0.]

What's sad is this is probably the 2nd most interesting/memorable thing to happen to the character after Rogue taking her powers. She has few classic, must read stories/villains. She hasn't even had a decent run since the 2000's. I wish Marvel worked on that.

[@marcelo-ramos]

Kelly Thompson's run is amazing.

[@jessiemchummigbird1493]

@@marcelo-ramos cap

[@jerr0.]

@@marcelo-ramos Amazing is a strong word for that run. I'd call it mediocre.

[@residentgrigo4701]

Zero Hour has a very bad pregnancy plot for Power Girl, who had it rough Post-Crisis till the late 90s JSA began. Few lessons were learned here. Zero Hour was my very first JSA story, yeah. Great art though and some cool tie-ins. Norman Osborn getting a virginal Gwen pregnant, who lusted for him and European getaway (?!?) for some reason got retconned last year, so there is some hope for Avengers 200. The real problem is the comic´s content to do so. The last thing Disney wants is to dig this shit up as they would easily land on Fox News. Captain Marvel is now a billion-dollar IP, well used to be. They refused to republish 2 Dark Horse Predator shorts due to featuring racist southern soldiers and swastikas despite neither tale being controversial so the Disney Vault might be starting to close if that is how an R-rated IP is handled.

[@FangsFirst]

I've always suspected this was the sort of casually tossed off "crazy time loop fantasy sci fi" stuff that, in the abstract, seems interesting--"Oh wow, he's his own father!"--but no one considered the implications of. Not that this would justify it or make it palatable, but that Carol refers to being "used" makes it difficult to even envision an explanation where everyone involved was somehow oblivious to the dark inferences to be made. Though we also had Starfox and lots of stories (even more broadly) about "love spells" and "love potions" that didnt seem to consider this either... it's still just so bizarre to end up with no one even going "Oh no, what if this is a villainous plot!" or something else that, while not acknowledging the uncomfortably implicit crime, might at least question the positivity of the events. Certainly does make it feel like the "oh no, deadlines!" was the biggest, most callous driver of it all. Which I can't identify as better or worse...

[@sonyakinsey4376]

Ah yes, the issue that went from kidnapping, to rape, on to forced birth, then incest and back to kidnapping and rape again. Even for the time, this is bad and I'm baffled as to how it made it to the shelves with no one intervening. Then again, in 1988 Star Trek TNG would have Troi go through something similar, although not as horrible. At least she didn't have to fall in love with the alien that made her give birth to it. Blegh.

[@PRAISE_HASHUT]

I’ve always wondered if TNG writers were aware of the Avengers story beforehand. At least in the TNG episode the alien responsible gets a moral calling out, albeit it a soft one IIRC.

[@Hiro_Ramone]

I mean to be fair, that TNG episode was a scrapped idea that only made into an actual episode because of the writer's strike at the time. Avengers 200 has a very merky story of who's to blame and no excuse to make into shelves when put into comparison...

[@DavidTSmith-jn5bs]

​@@Hiro_RamoneExactly! The TNG episode was a recycled script from the aborted Star Trek II series which would have had Ilia as the expectant mother.

[@juniorjames7076]

@@DavidTSmith-jn5bs THIS is the story they chose for a 200th Anniversary issue? Its just baffling.

[@DavidTSmith-jn5bs]

@@juniorjames7076 It was more baffling knowing that there was a story where Mar-Vell and Carol had their minds manipulated by an alien flower. That was a better story than this and it was ignored or forgotten by Shooter and co.

[@muriok2474]

I appreciate you being brutally honest with this mess of a comic, i was young when i read it and found it extremely messed up

[@RAlanBryan2112]

Avengers #200 ... IT WAS A crap story then and remains one of the worst stories ever written. I was 20 when I read it and could not believe that THIS BS was the 200th issue... The only good thing was the art... Perez did great Avengers. We are all Thankful for AVENGERS ANNUAL #10.... At least that cleared the air a bit. Nice video I enjoy all that you do.

[@meowco69]

Avengers annual which is considered by many one of the best annuals it was also confusing to me as a young kid because I didn't have any of the backstory of avengers 200 so I had no idea what was happening until years later

[@Negameleon]

A similar "bad" comic book (though not on the level of Avengers #200) worth looking into is Batman: Odyssey. A lot of the badness speaks for itself, from the art to the dialogue, it's a bit of a trainwreck, though at least an entertaining (?) one.

[@daniellong7926]

All I can say is.. holy crap. 😱

[@jameshanna490]

why has as far as i know, not looked at the idea that the "baby" had not messed with there minds so they would not fight with him or mind that he left with her

[@Rgoid]

Maybe he did.

[@robertopulitano8093]

Love the hate this comic receives!!! 🎉😂

[@StrangeBrainParts]

It is definitely warranted.

[@robertopulitano8093]

Shooter didn´t care about the Avengers, so he saying "just change the plot so it doesn´t look like that other comic I dont care what you change it into" seems like on brand for him. I mean, Hank Pym is a wife-abuser because Shooter couldn´t bother to ask the artist to change that infamous panel. Still, outside of the hate for Avengers 200, at least we got that annual that is still one of my favorites comic books.

[@luciferfernandez7094]

Yeah. I’m not into graded comic books but I would invest on a copy of this one, the hate is making it infamous

[@floepiejane]

​@@robertopulitano8093Shooter had deadlines that had to be met. It is a business after all.

[@HailEarendil]

Good comic. Great story.

[@Hiro_Ramone]

The only thing i disagree is that this is a time capsule, i didn't grow up reading comics at the time this was puvlished but looking back on other titles made by similar creators in the same publisher, this still sticks out like a sore thumb. It is still worth remembering as an example of what NOT TO DO, but i feel that it's not representative even for that era.

[@jasonguinn6075]

I wonder what the point of this story was or why it was done this way at all.

[@donttrustem13]

Glad I saw this was gonna collect up to this point but maybe the Yesterday Quest was a better stopping point after all

[@jikorijo4516]

Happy New Year, SBPs!🎊🥳🎉 May you be a fearsome 🐲 this year and not get mysteriously impregnated!

[@ItsTheFizz]

Well I'm sure glad Marvel's no longer writing off Ms. Marvels for incredibly selfish and sexist reasons! *laughs in Amazing Spider-Man #26 (2023)*

[@terrancesellington]

What in the world??!! 😮

[@amanzeihedioha]

Great video, Brain. I have to ask if you have heard about another similar situation with Nightwing. His own were...infamous.

[@stevemichaels1386]

I remember reading this issue like it was yesterday, I remember talking to buddies who also read it and I’m like what the hell is going on here. I was totally disappointed in avengers 200, the only good thing about it was Jorge Perez his artwork, which as usual was great. Another good video keep them coming.

[@Skipray_Blastboat]

Didn't Star Trek the Next Generation do almost the same exact story with Dianna Troy?

[@boxcarhobo7017]

I read it as a kid the day it dropped. We were too young and sign of the times the cringe factor of it all flew over our head. We all remembered it just being boring. At the time, I thought it out-dulled Captain America #200 in terms of anniversary issues. The poor guys currently reviewing the Kirby Mad-Bomb series on Deconstruction Comics think it's all building toward something grand and sweeping like the Red Skull which it most definitely ain't. Good God, forty eight years later, it's still a letdown. It cost me a quarter in '76, but a lifetime of non memories, unless sleep is a memory. As an adult, that position has swapped. Mad-Bomb was building toward something great for a bicentennial memorable crescendo of epic preparations. What it delivered was a cure for insomnia. This was many horrible things, but not sleep inducing. All I know is I never want to see what's in Jim Shooter's search history. He's one incident away from appearing on true crime.

[@garyhoutz1540]

Binary was just a ridiculous character.

[@JeghedderThomas]

That is absolutely the most stupid story they've ever written (that I know about, of course).

[@Allean_Adkins]

As a fan of Ms Marvel/Binary I actually decided to get this book cgc 9.4. mainly because Claremont stuff with her is amazing

[@Tsalviatti]

I mean, at least this is some next level Oedipus Complex...

[@jeremysmith4620]

"Earth's Mightiest Time-Traveling Incestual Assault Apologists." Luckily Marvel dropped that as the cover tag-line for The Avengers comics. They simply couldn't get the type set small enough to be legible and fit under the title of the book, no matter how many times they tried. Almost missed the news stand date. What else would you expect with Stan "The Man" Lee running the show? Lee believed a woman's place was in the kitchen, but in spandex. He never met a woman he didn't love. Love to see instantly captured by a villain because she was portrayed as completely inept and utterly incapable, no matter how powerful, that needed a man to save her, preferably one with a very cool mustache and sunglasses. Smoker's jacket optional, but highly preferred. While this is being a little jokey, it is sadly very true. Although not directly responsible for the writing in Avengers 200, Lee's writing did influence the books that came after, like this one. Many of those books even had "Presented by Stan Lee" slapped on the cover to honor the man who was tied for the title of most humble man in comics, alongside Bob Kane of course. Just read Lee's early work like Fantastic Four and you can't help but notice how pervasive his attitudes towards women were. Stan worked very closely with Michelinie over the years on Iron Man and others that had these same misogynist tropes several times per issue. Then you hear the story of why Avengers 200 probably happened the way it did and that David Michelinie was feuding with Chris Claremont, who had personally taken over Carol Danvers character for the better. Apparently Michelinie decided this was the best way to strike out at Claremont, especially since it was Claremont's pet character and he wrote female characters quite different than anyone else at Marvel, with actual agency and complex inner lives. So he struck out at Claremont like any sane adult would and have his pet character become the victim and finally lover of her own son. He knew it was gross and did it because it was gross. If you see how Micheline handed Mary Jane and other women when it came to Spider-Man over the years it becomes pretty obvious he didn't treat female characters in the best way. Also I have to include here that Jim Shooter definitely didn't do any of this, no matter his name also appearing under the writer for Avengers #200. He actually introduces himself to people by saying, "Hi I'm Jim Shooter and had to part in writing Avengers #200." His name tag at comic shows usually says "Didn't write Avengers 200" in large print and under it "Jim Shooter." If did not list this he would show up here and let us know he didn't write him. If you go into the restroom at any comics shop, if you are that brave, and say "Jim Shooter wrote Avengers 200" in the mirror 3 times the ghost of Jim Shooter's attorney will appear and serve you with cease and desist paperwork.

[@MrPatrickAnonymous]

0:50 "national poke-a-hontus week" wow this story starts with a racist insult and just gets worse from there

[@zainmudassir2964]

Ms Marvel carol danvers was done dirty. I like Kamala Khan Ms Marvel has no mention of it even though she's a Danvers fangirl

[@MarsNova]

No wonder Carol drank like MCU Jessica Jones: trying to wash away trauma.

[@TevyaSmolka]

yeah this comic is bad

[@ItsOver9000Productions]

One of the worst comcis EVER created.

[@HailEarendil]

QQ

[@darrylwiggins4799]

I know this is already been said but I bought this comic too and clearly remember thinking at the end of it"Was Carol Danvers raped by her son"?And why in the hell are the Avengers so congratulatory towards what happened to their teammate?I was stunned and angry,something I have never felt towards a comic before.What a stinker of a story.

[@DrHackmoff]

dont know , it could work as a horror story. think cthulhu meets rosemary's baby

[@allendean9807]

This story was just tone deaf as hell. But at least Danvers was a human being, not the flat affect block of wood we have in the film franchise... what makes it even more frustrating is that same block of wood CAN ACT. She’s just given nothing to work with. It’s hilarious how the other avengers, a team who’ve dealt with threats all over the cosmos, just buy toys and make good-goo faces at a rapidly growing dude. Chris Claremont has said in interviews, this issue drove him crazy, and he lobbied for Avengers annual 10 to address this. And, in classic Claremont fashion, he writes female protagonists and characters extremely well. His third act dissertation is pure comic book gold. If a captain marvel film ever came close to this level of writing, Larsen would have more awards to be sure. Sometimes, comic books make huge mistakes. I mean, taking away Wonder Woman’s powers and making her a martial artist who goes clothes shopping? Ugh. Claremont definitely did the right thing by addressing this shite head on in AA10…..

[@MythwrightWorkshop]

They did Carol dirty.

[@GreenGoblet22]

I find it perplexing that Marvel is marketing the Avengers Epic Collection Vol. 11 with this issue as the cover... Unsure if they see it as a selling point, or if they're giving readers a warning of what's inside

[@mcpics4448]

It is a good cover if even don't think of the context of it.

[@g.a.2997]

I am genuinely baffled that Marvel doesn't typically retcon terrible stories like this out of continuity. They seemingly just don't acknowledge them and hope readers forget. But old readers don't forget and make sure to pass these horrible stories to future readers.

[@PRAISE_HASHUT]

I get what you’re saying but on this occasion I think that Claremont ‘answered’ it well by having that follow up issue where Carol confronted the team (and by inference the creative team responsible) on their negligence.

[@marcelo-ramos]

I prefer if things like this are just forgotten. Retconning doesn't erase them, but reopens the wound. "Let's pretend that never happened" works better for me.

[@indyatmn420]

"Reopens the wound"?? How did you manage to watch this video and why did you bother if it's so painful? I guess I'll start calling Claremont's follow up a visit to the ICU. @@marcelo-ramos​

[@johncole015]

This abominable story was a group effort too.

[@fedupN]

Whoof. That's shite. Reminds me of the "They'll never know what you sacrificed for them" tripe from Wandavision.

[@indyatmn420]

Well the Wandavision showrunner was a woman so don't expect alot of people to revisit how she downplayed jaw-droppingly repugnant behavior and tried to frame Wanda as some sort of martyr.

[@Randomaccount9470]

With EVERY SENTENCE IT GETS FXCKING WORSE 👀

[@HailEarendil]

One of my all time favorites! Glad you like it, too.

[@juliagoodwin9510]

WHO IN GOD'S NAME THOUGHT THAT THIS WAS WAS A GOOD IDEA?!?!?!?!?!?!

[@uxm4life94]

43 years too late for this reaction and inquest! For proper context this story was universally condemned back then too. Modern Marvel regularly has stories unapologetically endorsing segregation, fascism, inborn racial superiority, mind coercion into relationships, allying with child murderers, genocide, collective punishment, collective race blame and even killing innocent people because somebody else dropped litter! Even with this abomination of a story- morality in Jim Shooter era will age much better than modern Marvel. Needless to say quality much better too.

[@jameshanna490]

its clear that messrd with everyones minds. so why dont anyone bring that up

[@jellyface401]

Who let the mangakas in?

[@LockesComicWorld-qn1jh]

Man, Avenger issue #200 got to be the most disgusting story ever to be written. 🙄

[@pacecory1]

offensive to modern audiences? that means it must be better than anything marvel's putting out now LOL... oh gods how far marvel has fallen when this, this story right here is still 10 times better than anything they can make now...

[@JRussellDay]

This whole story is a Strong example of why one should have representation on their teams, it's not just to "fill quotas" it's so you don't have four men make a very uncomfortable story that anybody else would have advised against.

[@indyatmn420]

There are 3 big problems with your (and every 3rd wave feminist/Woke person's) "representation" argument: 1. You refuse to see people as individuals when it suits a stereotype you want to perpetuate (i.e. men can't be trusted to write female characters), by framing them as essentialist groups who all share the same ideas/beliefs/values. Do you really believe that hiring individuals on the basis of their sex/gender/race is somehow better than judging people as individuals? Do you believe that EVERY female creator in Marvel at the time would have shot this story down? Do you believe no male creators would have had big problems with this story even though Chris Claremont was livid about this story? Here's something to think about: it was an all-male Supreme Court who allowed Roe/Wade to become the law of the land and it was a Supreme Court with women that got rid of it. You see humans in the same way the people in your echo chamber do: as essentialist stereotypes while simultaneously decrying it when anyone you don't like does the same. 2. You don't actually want "representation". This is why Woke people have no time for conservative blacks or conservative women. "Representation" is just an attempt to insure everyone agrees with their progressive ideas and kill diversity of thought, which is what is actually needed. 3. Just because females/males are more likely to see a certain thing as offensive doesn't mean that hiring should be based on this generalization (and again it wouldn't be, because you no doubt would exclude a huge chunk of women who don't share your views/values).

[@HailEarendil]

There is nothing wrong with the story. "Representation" as a practice is stupid.

[@JRussellDay]

@@HailEarendil lol how silly, the whole video is about how the story failed itself. And you also clearly didn't understand the point of my statement either.

[@HailEarendil]

@@JRussellDay No. Good story. Better than anything Marvel has done in years. Definitely not a failure by any stretch. Quite enjoyable really. And, I understood your use woke buzzwords just fine..

[@TheBeird]

Gross I mean . . . Gross!

[@3L_B4R7O]

5h1t, goes dark!

[@JosephDickersonUX]

I read it when it first came out, and even as a teenager I was like, NOT COOL. And also, WTF? The fact that so many people let this thing get published shows that YUP, feminists had some very valid grievances against men in the 70s and 80s. Good on Chris Claremont for tearing off the bandaid and calling both the characters AND the editors and writers out.

[@HailEarendil]

Found the actual cringe.

[@TechnicolorGhosts]

I find it both incredibly funny and really sad that the 200th issue of The Avengers is not a grand celebration of the team's history, filled with moments of exhilarating action and enjoyable character interaction, but is instead devoted to a plot that involves one of the female members being raped by her own son and everyone just being a-okay with that. Truly one of the comics of all time.

[@MandatoryReporter2015]

It drove Perez to DC!

[@benb3316]

I was going to just laugh at a modern "Soy" person reacting to anything not approved by some "Safe Space" of Harvard, Yale and Portland + Seattle coffeshop elites. However I do thank you for the very high resolution images of the magazine articles that were very informative and amusing to pause the screen and read. I also thank the Soy people of today who I otherwise loahte for ruining the comic industry for giving me new appreciation for the Avengers as I had only so much allowance and missed a lot of their stuff. Also it's neat when (8:30) Carol Streickland gives a pre-"Fridge" trope whine about women in comics and then bashes the attempts to make comics with women characters that appeal to women but the issues get cancelled. Note that Marvel was notorious to cancel literally EPIC (illustrated) projects if the $ didn't come in. No bias on politics or gender just "Duz this make Muhney, Huhney!?" As a bratty kid of the 80s I read lots of Bronze age comics older than me with dog eared pages and black Xs on the cover for 10/$1 and saw lots of the 70s epics - note that "Tomb of Dracula" had Blade replace the aging Van Helsing on the anti-Dracula team and their letters column was like a flame war on Stormfront. Quite a change from today when comics publish vapid bland "Diversity" preaching to a choir that wouldn't be caught dead with a comic... Mmaybe a second hand Sandman Graphic Novel or some of those 90s/00s Pop "Goth" hot topic things...The Crow at best. When there are more BRICKS than the end of the Comics boom sold by sullen eyed store owners that they were forced to buy... I do like how Carol Streickland raved how in the world did the Comics Code Authority approve it...!? I agree but.... "One Man's Opinion" for legal CMA but I think it was obvious from day ONE they were there to rubber stamp what the mainstream put out and then viciously capriciously gatekeep out competitors. That's why any of the other companies that had comics code approval had content a lot more G-rated - they had to pay thousands and if they got a no they had no idea what happened save "Uh - change it, pay again and see if it sticks" whereas the code (like the MPAA) told the major studios "We'll allow this but not that..." Serious - look up how President Nixon appeared in a Superman issue "If you can't trust the President who CAN you trust." Only because the code worked with the major companies who could have bypassed it a decade ago did that make sense. Again "One Man's Opinion" but I think this story going through argues this. Then again if they were vigilant they'd have probably not allowed Ms Marvel's return and shouting at her former teammates over what they let happen to her...?

[@marcelo-ramos]

I'm sure people would be a lot more open to your comments if you avoided the tone you spent a whole paragraph setting.

[@benb3316]

@@marcelo-ramos If I could post images here I'd do one cartoon where "hipstergirl" boasts how her crusade has won that a certain character (Wonder Woman) has gotten taken out of her old school sexist uniform for saner wear for someone who fights as much... The guy at the comic shop goes - "Uh, are you going to buy it then?" she goes "WTF!? I'd not waste my $ on this #)qw@#0 ....!" and tosses it out while walking away. In the past I might have agreed with you - but too used to nothing but vinegar sprayed from the other side. I think 90%+ of this 'fashionably radical' outlet are the people who just want "Change" in the industry and wouldn't TOUCH a comic book except as a prop or not admit it at least to their hipster friends. This "Woke" movement is doing nothing to help anyone and its reversing the real progress real "Social Justice" and "Progressives" made last century. IMO if Woke people now existed back then they'd have been Birchers and NARCs. Dare I dream someday I'll be part of the Comicsgate/IndieComics associated company that buys Marvel from a bankruptcy holding? I have a way -in canon- to wipe out this ENTIRE era and we'll just have comics come as if they'd been going on the right way for decades and this last one was a glitch. If I do that I'm going to re-retcon Ms Marvel and this will look nice in comparison... Big if but who knows...

[@indyatmn420]

I am guessing "tone" is your euphemism for comments that point out that, yes, Virginia, Wokeness and DEI policies have indeed had a negative - as in unequivocally divisive - effect on comics. @@marcelo-ramos

[@TitularHeroine]

As soon as I saw the title card I said, out loud, "Ohhhh. Mm-hmm." I'm looking forward to hearing the episode. Edit: "...Danvers would become part of the X-Men, and by extension, she was under the protection of Claremont." That is a damn fine point, and, sincerely -- good for him. Thanks for another engaging episode.

[@claudialomeli4048]

The fact that even back in the 1980s people were mad about this it's proof of how much they fucked up, and it's proof of how different the industry would be if there had been more women involved.

[@indyatmn420]

There are 3 big (and divisive) problems with your (and every 3rd wave feminist/Woke person's) "representation" argument: 1. You refuse to see people as individuals when it suits a stereotype you want to perpetuate (i.e. men can't be trusted to write non-offensive female characters), by framing them as essentialist groups who all share the same ideas/beliefs/values. Here's something to think about: Chris Claremont hated the story as did other men. Also: it was an all-male Supreme Court who allowed Roe/Wade to become the law of the land and it was a Supreme Court with "more women" that got rid of it. Whether you realize it or not, you see humans in the same way the people in your echo chamber do: as essentialist stereotypes while simultaneously decrying it when anyone you don't like does the same. 2. You're not actually interested in simply having "more women" (i.e. "representation"). It's just an attempt to weed out the number of potential hires who would disagree with your ideas/values. This is why Woke people have no time for conservative blacks or conservative women. "Representation" is just an attempt to insure everyone agrees with their "progressive" (i.e. regressive) ideas and kill diversity of thought, which is what is actually needed. 3. Just because females/males are more likely to see a certain thing as offensive doesn't mean that hiring should be based on this generalization (and again it wouldn't be, because you no doubt would exclude a huge chunk of women who don't share your views/values). What you really want is "more women who share my ideas and values and won't offend me".

[@HailEarendil]

Sheeeeesh.. Talk about cringe.

[@BlackDoveNYC]

I bought this when it came out. At that point, to me at least, the comic was at low point in general. As a kid it struck me as awful, especially since I was a fan of the then Ms. Marvel particularly her strength and no BS attitude. Everything that occurred made no sense for the character. Though at that time this title seemed to have run out of ideas and none of the characters behaved as they did in prior issues. Also some of what you referenced was not in the original story. For instance, the children conversation between Wanda and Carol.

[@KardboardKenny]

gross...lol

[@tommccarthy8905]

It has been a long time since I read this. I want to read it with the assumption every character is under some form of mind control, except perhaps for Carol Danvers in the immediate aftermath of childbirth. Sadly, the text does not give any reason to do so...

[@Mugen-0088]

I dunno, it's no less stupid or unbelieveable than most premises in comics haha.

[@jorgem.1564]

I read this in the late 80s as a kid. Loved the cover...how the can story be so bad. I thought the whole Carol stuff was crazy...in a bad way. I am surprised this even saw print...even back then.

[@Brianna-eo8nu]

Imagine the pitch meeting for issue 200’s story… I don’t know what’s more cringy and disturbing, the image of someone at Marvel actually going in front of a group writers, artists and/or publishers and convincing them that Ms Marvel getting abducted, essentially raped, giving birth to a reincarnated version of her rapist, and then going of to marry that said rapist/son with every other member of the avengers being completely chill with it would make for a good comic story… …or the image of those people, somehow, for some ungodly reason, agreeing with that guy, and giving this story the green light… That pitch meeting guy must’ve been the greatest salesman of the century.

[@lightspaceman5064]

Bad stories come out all the time, so you're gonna see legendarily bad ones like this every once in a while over the decades. I can understand that. What I don't understand is why they thought this made sense as a 200 anniversary issue. What was the thought process here? It's not action packed. It doesn't celebrate the history. It's just weird and messed up in ways that make you wonder what they were going for even if you assume that nobody noticed what was wrong with it. And it's STILL CANON. So every character in it ends up looking bad.

[@g.a.2997]

I am genuinely hoping someone like Nick Spencer retcons this story like he did with Sins Past.

[@lightspaceman5064]

@@g.a.2997 It's not even like the Hank Pym slap where you can argue it makes him a more interesting character. It just does nothing good for anyone. I'm surprised they didn't say everyone had a brain virus that day.

[@samwill7259]

It boggles my mind how hard it is for male creators to just...do the most basic of human empathy, stepping outside themselves and seeing how they would feel in a female character's shoes. Women are not aliens, it should not be hard to put yourself in their shoes. Or better yet, fucking ask one.

[@indyatmn420]

Well since you're cursing: F-k off, jagoff. The idea that you can glibly describe "male creators" as struggling to empathize with female characters based off this one story (or however many relative handful you've cherry picked in your mind compared to the thousands of stories "male creators" have written featuring amazing female characters) marks you as a repugnant sexist if not a misandrist. And so are the people who gave you an upvote.

[@HailEarendil]

Yeah, because women are always affording men that same consideration & courtesy, right? Oh, wait.. the MSheU wants a word.

[@samwill7259]

@@HailEarendil What totally immaterial nonsense could you possibly be on about?

[@HailEarendil]

@@samwill7259 I could easily say the same thing about your statement. But I will tell you what I am on about.. You seem to think that only men are capable of writing and portraying the opposite sex in an unrealistic or unsympathetic manner. Well, I am here to tell you that the opposite is more likely to be true. As evidenced by how every recent portrayal of male characters in comics, video games, movies, etc.. Is either an emasculated buffoon, a deconstructed husk of their former self, or an over the top misogynistic villain, when written & portrayed by female creators. In fact, I would say that male creators have historically done a much better job in pop culture of portraying female characters & their sensibilities BETTER than female creators have ever done for men. Also, why would you expect an industry, back then, predominantly started by & made for males to take much consideration on making things for a female perspective? That doesn't even make sense? That should be easy enough for you to understand.. So now you can stop pretending like you don't know what I am talking about.

[@HailEarendil]

@@samwill7259 I will tell you what I am on about.. You seem to think that only men are capable of writing and portraying the opposite sex in an unrealistic or unsympathetic manner. Well, I am here to tell you that the opposite is more likely to be true. As evidenced by how every recent portrayal of male characters in comics, video games, movies, etc.. Is either an emasculated buffoon, a deconstructed husk of their former self, or an over the top misogynistic villain, when written & portrayed by female creators. In fact, I would say that male creators have historically done a much better job in pop culture of portraying female characters & their sensibilities BETTER than female creators have ever done for men. Also, why would you expect an industry, back then, predominantly started by & made for males to take much consideration on making things for a female perspective? That doesn't even make sense? That should be easy enough for you to understand.. So now you can stop pretending like you don't know what I am talking about.

[@MarquisdeSuave]

Okay, but all things considered, Avengers 200 had one of the best covers of all time.

[@DanielDeLeon69]

They Could've Done So Much Better With This Comic, But No It Failed.

[@tompuce84]

[@MandatoryReporter2015]

“Dr. Blake gave me a clean bill of health.” I’m glad she wasn’t Thor after giving birth! 🤣

[@Antonicane]

One of the dirt worst. How this story made print is utterly beyond me. I'm certain that at some stage, *somebody* must've realised this was a terrible idea, but it obviously wasn't someone in a position to do anything about it until well after the fact. Rightfully disparaged as a failure on all counts. Kudos to Carol Strickland, Chris Claremont, and others who have called it out as a wholly repugnant work of fiction on multiple levels.

[@aldinbaroza9640]

Yeah, unfortunately this was the kind of regard many creatives in the industry had for women characters in the 70s and 80s. Even Claremont, who at least approached women characters as characters and not accessories for the male characters, put women into mind-rape plots, as a way to give them angst or "character growth". This publication wasn't that far removed timewise from DC editorial's "cripple the bitch" attitude over The Killing Joke.

[@marcelo-ramos]

I don't like what happened in The Killing Joke, but it's not its blame for crippling Barbara. The story wasn't supposed to be in continuity. The fault i's whoever decided to make it canon.

[@aldinbaroza9640]

Yeah, that's why I called out DC editorial. Although it's been argued over the years that Alan Moore's takes on women characters haven't been great. And I say that as someone who likes his body of work.

[@indyatmn420]

Hmm.. hundreds of stories were written using women characters in the 70s and 80s (often by very liberal progressive types especially in the 80s), but in your mind the entire industry's "regard for women" can be reduced to the relatively rare stories that involve raping or crippling them? The blizzard of strong, complex, and extremely popular women that were created by Moore and Claremont, as well as similarly popular creators like Byrne and Wolfman and yet you glibly reduce 2 decades worth of stories as essentially misogynist? Astonishing.