A framework for PM skill development | Vikrama Dhiman (Gojek)

Vikrama Dhiman heads all things product at Gojek, including product management, design, program management, and research, across Indonesia, Singapore and India. He has over 16 years of experience building internet products, consults with Fortune 500 companies, and is among the most well-known and respected product leaders in all of Asia. In our conversation, we discuss:
• The most common traits among successful product managers
• The 3 W’s framework for PM career growth
• The Four A’s of leveling up in product management
• The right way to push back as a PM
• Common pitfalls that stall PM careers
• Vikrama’s advice for transitioning into product management
• Why intent alone is not enough
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Find the transcript at: www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-...
Where to find Vikrama Dhiman:
• X: / vikramadhiman
• LinkedIn: / vikrama
• Website: www.vikramadhiman.com/
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: / lennysan
• LinkedIn: / lennyrachitsky
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Vikrama’s background
(03:56) Three common traits among great PMs
(07:09) The first W: What you produce
(15:40) The second W: What you bring to the table
(18:58) The third W: What’s your operating model?
(20:36) Three traits that make you a great PM to work with
(21:49) How to improve the quality and quantity of your outputs
(23:26) The art of the pushback
(26:55) Common factors that impede career growth
(33:39) Vikrama’s personal reflections
(39:33) Choosing which skill(s) to focus on developing
(46:28) The ambiguity of the PM role
(51:47) The 8 axis for PM growth
(56:57) Contrarian corner: Why intent alone is not enough
(59:30) Lightning round
Referenced:
• Taxi mafias, cash vaults, and 100% MoM growth: The story behind Southeast Asia’s biggest startup | Kevin Aluwi (Gojek): www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ta...
• How to scrappily hire for, measure, and unlock growth | Crystal Widjaja, Gojek and Kumu: www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ho...
• Gojek: www.gojek.com/en-id
• SQL: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL
• Oracle: www.oracle.com/
• Crystal Widjaja on LinkedIn: / crystalwidjaja
• Raditya Wibowo: www.linkedin.com/in/raditya-w...
• Sidu Ponnappa on LinkedIn: / sidup
• Leveraging mentors to uplevel your career | Jules Walter (KZbin, Slack): www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/le...
• Kevin Aluwi on LinkedIn: / kaluwi
• Workday: www.workday.com/
• Salesforce: www.salesforce.com/
• Small Data: The Tiny Clues That Uncover Huge Trends: www.amazon.com/Small-Data-Clu...
• Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World: www.amazon.com/Originals-How-...
• Thinking, Fast and Slow: www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-...
• Miss Congeniality on Prime Video: www.amazon.com/Miss-Congenial...
• Schitt’s Creek on Prime Video: www.amazon.com/Schitts-Creek/...
• DramaBox: www.dramaboxapp.com/
• Am I Overthinking This?: Over-Answering Life’s Questions in 101 Charts: www.amazon.com/Am-Overthinkin...
• Crazy Rich Asians on Prime Video: www.amazon.com/Crazy-Rich-Asi...
• 9 Best Hawker Centers in Singapore-and What to Eat There: www.afar.com/magazine/best-ha...
Production and marketing by penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [e-mail].
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

[@GaganMahajan3]

“When early in career, focus on output “ can vouch for it having directly mentored by Vikrama early in my PM career

[@DJRod91]

4 months into my career as a PM and I feel like I just unlocked a cheat code watching this.

[@joeldawriter]

klk what’s your linked in ?

[@jkidsimon]

A great episode that resonates with me as a product manager with ten years of experience.The important thing is the basic skills and then the continuous progress in the daily life.And how to manage yourself, control what you can control, the flavor of Stoic philosophy in it.

[@vikramadhiman536]

I hadn't thought about Stoic philosophy aspect of it. Thank you for bringing it up. It's a really good point.

[@annfender]

@@vikramadhiman536 Hey Vikram, how you develop product sense and problem solving mindset? Do you suggest any frameworks? Can’t think clearly when it comes to breaking down problems

[@vikramadhiman536]

This is a great question and a hard one. Let us start with the problem mindset. Please go through 'Competing Against Luck' by Clayton Christensen for the best way to learn and reference. The first rule of framing a problem is to identify WHO has the problem, WHAT problem they have and WHY do they have the problem (in some cases it is useful to add WHERE and WHEN too). Why's is what takes practice. 5 Why's is a good tool. I also think Jobs to be Done is a great framework when applied correctly across functional, emotional and social axis. Product sense - I don't know if there is a common understanding of this term. How I define it -> problem and solution intuition. Some leaders use the term empathy - I don't know if I agree to that. Intuition is better since it means you will not be an expert in problems and solutions in any sphere but a limited one, and it is about 'connecting the dots'. The three components of product sense are - Observe & Notice -> can you observe without judgement, can you notice what is worth noticing Identify & Ideate -> can you figure and frame problems, can you come up with the right solutions Iterate & Solidify -> can you list the constraints on solutions, can you prioritise what will work the best You learn about all these components by learning more about your customers, reading a wide range of things, talking to domain experts and discussing the details with your colleagues. Start with either [2] or [3] and get a trusted colleague to give you feedback. Once you have mastered [2] and [3], you will see that you would automatically be half way through [1] already! Let me know if this is not practical enough. I'll try and flesh this out with an example in a blog post.

[@farhankabir8085]

Thanks Lenny and Vikrama! The way Vikrama covered the intricacies on the different aspects of a PM is outstanding! Very helpful insights

[@beibeihu4992]

Lenny, I think your content is really excellent and solid. Today I attended an online conference, but I have to say that some of the discussions by the speakers didn't offer much insight or substance. So, I opened up your video, and I feel like no matter how long your videos are, I'm willing to watch them to the end. They are very, very rewarding.

[@LennysPodcast]

I really appreciate that 🧡

[@braydenhaws4344]

This should be canon for all PM's. I think the tech bubble had a bad effect on PMs, made many of us too complacent. I love that you are pushing us all to improve!

[@vikramadhiman536]

Thank you, Brayden.

[@tnabizade]

One of the best episodes from Lenny!

[@Kashmiribakiri]

This has been such a wonderful episode

[@alexeyhimself]

39:35 These 2 understandings help me to process tough feedback: First, "People complain not about me, but about my work. I am not what I do. I am not my work. And everything is fine with me. My work might need some fixes, but I am okay." And Second: "Whenever people tell me something, they tell only 2 things: "please" and "thank you". When they complain, they ask "please don't do it this way" (it hurts them somehow). And when they glad, they say "thank you for doing this for me" (it helps them somehow)".

[@vikramadhiman536]

This is an amazing phrasing. Thank you for sharing this!

[@swpcy]

Such a valuable episode (like always). Vikrama's grounded perspective is inspiring.

[@akinolaakintayo2787]

Thank you so much Lenny and Vikrama for this insightful conversation!

[@chimachiaka7364]

Hi Lenny, am actually intrigued by the way you reconfirm key points. Very nice and something I am keeping as a skill.

[@vikramadhiman536]

What a great point. Lenny not only reconfirms key points but also rephrases them for even more clarity. Definitely worth emulating.

[@Neetish21]

I've been a PM for over a decade now and this one hour episode is gold ❤

[@vikramadhiman536]

Thank you for listening, Neetish. What part resonated the most with you?

[@Neetish21]

@@vikramadhiman536 like I said the entire hour is gold, especially the idea of reevaluating your skills and having the humility to work on improving

[@neelanjansinha3128]

29:22 This is a very good framing of such a wide problem that I see with the folks in my team. Thanks Vikrama and Lenny!

[@Theatriics]

Thank you so much for this video. I am struggling in my current entry PM role and Vikrama has given me better guidance and advice than my actual manager. Love the frameworks!!

[@vikramadhiman536]

Thank you. Hope it works out well. Please let us know how it goes :)

[@Ying-pd9ht]

Such a valuable episode, beneficial as a product manager.

[@ramyaram]

Wonderful insight!!. Nicely done!!.

[@AmarMTV]

Excellent session! There was a lot of valuable information to take in and apply. I have a question for Vikrama: What does a typical day look like for you, especially after work? Do you have any hobbies or activities you enjoy?

[@vikramadhiman536]

Thank you. No two days look alike after work. There are hobbies that are indulgent and the ones for personal & professional growth. In the slightly indulgent ones I love to explore new restaurants (have a handle to write reviews online too), understand and debate the latest in fashion trends with friends who are not in tech and sometimes binge watch series. I also take out time out to focus on professional pursuits like listening to podcasts. I also love to read a lot - articles, magazines, books and so on. I'd love to be more regular in some of the online courses I enrolled in. In personal growth, I got obsessed with capital markets during the pandemic and have become relatively better at financial planning but for me, MFs work out the best - I've tried but found that to be the sweet spot rather than agonising myself over every trade, crypto and so on. What I would like to get better at is cultivate hobbies on the health side - I just started a martial arts class but I am not too regular at it. One of the other things I am going to spend time on is volunteering for the communities for elderly - this is something I have been thinking about a lot recently.

[@ShubhamPatil-jl1wh]

It would be very useful to know what data skills a product manager can develop. Is it learning SQL, Python, etc or is it about learning more soft skills of analyzing data?

[@vikramadhiman536]

This depends. If you are starting off, figuring out SQL/ Excel has a lot of value - also don't forget data frameworks, how to set North Stars/ how to identify metrics for different parts of funnel/ technical metrics/ user experience metrics. Adding Python is a bonus.

[@CL_Combo]

Is there a link to the actual product management framework or is it just what is spoken about in this episode?

[@vikramadhiman536]

This is on Lenny's podcast for now - the first time I've spoken about it. I'll write about this on my blog soon :)

[@CL_Combo]

@@vikramadhiman536 awesome, can't wait to see! I know orgs adopting the product operating model always need something like this too especially if they are large and don't have a lot of real world product experience in the wild.

[@DianaCameron-ux6tp]

A lot of talk around focus “at the start of your career” but wouldn’t some of this apply even if you’re senior level but starting at a new company, since you need to build that familiarity and the relationships at the start? Or what would the advice be for that higher level but starting a new position? ~~ edit: May have asked too soon. I just heard Vikrama mention this at a later point! 😅

[@vikramadhiman536]

That's such a great point. 💯 In one of my previous roles, the three things that really helped me make a quick impact -> 1. Summarising notes from business discussions and sharing with the wider product engineering team (I got feedback that I am the PM who shares business contest candidly) 2. Being the first one to try the new product and raise bugs (got the feedback that I don't live in my ivory tower) 3. Preparing the narrative for next sprint (iteration) ahead of time and circulating it for feedback (got creds for eliminating the pre-sprint planning meeting) These are all straight from the useful output playbook - helps you, helps the team ❤

[@DianaCameron-ux6tp]

Fantastic advice, Vikrama. This was a wonderfully insightful podcast - thank you very much!! 💛

[@shathaabuhashem1260]

Can you please elaborate more in the three traits?

[@vikramadhiman536]

Thank you. The three traits need their own explanation. However, let me start with 'being difficult to work with'. The first thing that comes to anyone's mind when we say being difficult to work with is being rude or obstructionist or political. However, being difficult to work with can manifest in other behaviours that hinder collaboration, productivity, and team morale as well. In this post, I classify being difficult (or delightful) to work with under communication style, professional conduct, and general attitude. Communication Style Poor Listening Skills: Frequently interrupting others, dismissing their ideas, or failing to actively listen during discussions VS waiting, repeating what they said, responding only if you need to Negative Tone: Using a harsh, condescending, or sarcastic tone VS being calm, selecting your words carefully even when animated Non-Communicative: Information hoarding or failing to communicate updates VS over communicating even the smallest wins/ misses including progress, deadlines, work artefacts Professional Conduct Blame-Shifting: Regularly blaming others for problems or failures VS actively framing problems as system issues & working towards solutions. Inflexibility: Being rigid and unwilling to adapt to changes or consider alternative approaches VS being open minded, presenting alternatives, being objective Poor Work Ethic: Demonstrating a lack of commitment, reliability, or effort in completing tasks VS being enthusiastic, energetic, positively committed to your team General Attitude Negativity: Constantly complaining, focusing on problems rather than solutions, and spreading doomsday scenarios VS focusing on facts, brainstorming solutions, focusing on what's in your control Arrogance: Dismissing their contributions, unilateral decision making, not looping in others, stop communicating VS appreciating efforts of others, celebrating small wins, having a good camaraderie with all colleagues Escalating Conflicts: Overreacting to disagreements, escalating minor issues, not seeking constructive resolutions VS seeking win-win situations, not having pet-peeves with everyone & everything, know how to disagree and commit It is important we focus on effective collaboration. The obvious question is how do we push back without seeming difficult? Here is what you do: ask questions out of curiosity, seek to understand others' perspectives, offer constructive feedback, and propose solutions that benefit the entire team.

[@vikramadhiman536]

'I see you are very excited about this and want us to get going. Can I take a few minutes to clarify a few things so that we can move forward asap?' Questions (like the above) framed with context are one of the most powerful ways in which you can push forward without seeming difficult and drawing importance to the issue and not you. Frame your questions from curiosity (and not judgement). Start from why before going to how. Some examples: Why -> 1. I see this has become important. Can you give me more context on why? 2. This does not seem to align with the goals that had been shared earlier by leadership. Why are we making this a priority? 3. Why is it important to make this change right now? Can we wait a week? How about a month? 4. Is there any other subtext I should be aware of? Do you think the team is not working on important things? How -> 1. In order to accommodate this, what do you recommend we kill? Can I make some recommendations after talking to the team? 2. Are you hung up on the specific solution or is it ok if I circle back real quick on some others that could be easier to execute or have bigger impact? 3. Can we see if there are other teams who may be able to accommodate this better? 4. Can we setup an hour or two aside to flesh this out together? When you get sudden requests, the leaders may or may not have thought it through. Often, they may come in exhausted from pushing back themselves and/ or excited about an idea. The quicker you go from an emotional to a logical space, the more the chances that the right decision gets made. You get there calmly, methodically and without seeming like an obstruction. Questions framed with genuine curiosity are your (not so) secret weapon.

[@MojoGera-cm3um]

Vikrama’d thought process is a bit dated and biased. Also, he was a bit all over the place in this interview. Not one of Lenny’s great ones.

[@pukhtabanda2595]

Good podcast but It's kind of racist to make a brown guy white in the thumbnail. Why was that needed?

[@LennysPodcast]

We used the profile photo he sent us, unaltered

[@akashchowdhary8063]

@vikramadhiman536 any advice on how to get better at design from your experience. (I come from a tech background)

[@vikramadhiman536]

Hello Akash. I get this question a lot (assuming you are a PM with a tech background and want to get better at design). Like everything PM, there are the hard parts and the soft parts. The hard parts are covered in interview frameworks like CIRCLE, research tools (quantitative and qualitative - recommend Introduction to Research Methods, and picking up a tool like Figma. Then, there is the soft parts - books like Small Data are a good start - however, the key is to understand human psychology which is a huge area. Two things that will help you get there - go and talk to the customers and understand their emotional, social and functional needs. And second, pair up with the best designers and researchers in your org and brainstorm together. It's a journey. Don't expect a 5/5 in 6 months and keep at it. Good luck! Let me know if this is too overwhelming or confusing. I'll try to write a detailed post on this soon.

[@akashchowdhary8063]

@@vikramadhiman536 Hi Vikrama, by design I was assuming UI/UX design rather than product design/UX research. I look forward to the blog post on this.

[@vikramadhiman536]

If you can take 10-15 hours a week, joining an online course may be a good idea. Both Coursera and Udemy have good courses. When I need to level up, courses is one of the best ROI - you get somewhere in a defined timeframe, provided you are regular.