A Guide to Experiencing Miracles: Conversing with J.P. Moreland

Do miracles really happen today? Can people genuinely experience the supernatural in our daily lives? Philosopher JP Moreland says YES to both of these questions. In this interview, we discuss his latest book, "A Simple Guide to Experience Miracles." We talk about how to recognize miracles, respond to objections, and take live questions.
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[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

I encountered God as an atheist scientist through unusual serendipity that grew into a series of signs spanning years that became impossible to explain naturally without a supernatural Creator God.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Love it!

[@evanjobe9485]

Cool! What area of science do u study

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

@@evanjobe9485 Biology. Evolutionary ecology was my main area of interest in uni. Since then I did horticulture so I can try and be a good steward. :)

[@Golfinthefamily]

@@colmwhateveryoulike3240 You should share your testimony via video or write some out here! Do you still hold to macroevolution?

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

@@Golfinthefamily Yes, in spite of numerous attempts to see my way to explaining the evidence in an alternate manner. I'm following Deflate's current series - haven't watched the second one yet - and using it as an opportunity to be convinced of what he thinks are the best ID alternate theories but his first one didn't and I left a response, which I intend to do with the second too. I also want to read Fr Seraphim Rose on the subject and I have Joshua Swamidass' book to read too. That said, the God who did what I witnessed could do whatever He liked so I could believe it if it was revealed. I'd just be confused as to why there are three corresponding family trees of life revealed from three separate parts of creation. I'm open but I don't see any theological grounds to dismiss the evidence either. There will always be natural mechanisms for any created process so it has little bearing on what atheists and young earth creationists claim it does and as far as I can tell Genesis leaves room for how the earth brought forth life at God's command. I have shared it several times on KZbin. It takes ages but I made a note of the links if you're interested. Or I can copy/paste.

[@smalltownmomma8024]

My friend Lindsay was diagnosed with stage 4 glioblastoma, 38 years old, healthiest person I know, it came on sudden March 2020. She was given 1 month to live. Her church anointed her with oil and prayed over her (nothing wacky just biblical). She is still alive, no signs whatsoever of any tumors! Her best friend and husband and 2 other family members were saved and baptized within a month of her diagnosis! It also awakened her to the shallow faith (living life for herself but claiming to believe in Jesus) she had. She’s a walking miracle!

[@PC-vg8vn]

If there is medical testimony incl scans etc, then this is the sort of example that the sceptics can look at.

[@smalltownmomma8024]

@@PC-vg8vn theres every test under the sun skeptics could look at!

[@daisybrown3819]

@@smalltownmomma8024 that's amazing

[@dedmo79]

Glad she's well. I have a Hindu co-worker who went through an almost identical experience. Doctors have no idea how, but she was seemingly "cured" of her glioblastoma (in her case she was 40). She attributes her healing 100% to Vishnu. Do you think she's correct in her attribution to VIshnu for her healing? Or is your friend correct and my coworker was mistaken? If they both believe it wholeheartedly, is there a way we could figure out who was right? Or, could these be just natural occurrences we don't have an explanation for? And if so, how could we find that out?

[@smalltownmomma8024]

@@dedmo79 i think in that situation would have to take God Himself to reveal Himself to her either through a clear experience OR investigating what religion has more evidence based in reality? The Bible holds up every time to someone genuinely seeking who the true God is in comparison to either atheism or another religion. And ultimately only God can unveil the eyes.

[@DaddyKratosOfTheShire]

Glory to GOD in the highest. OUR MASTER AND COMMANDER ANSWERS PRAYERS, HALLELUJAH!!

[@ballzybaits4414]

I believe in miracles. I witnessed my uncle, declared dead. About 30mins later, my father (new pastor at that time) went into the room and prayed for his brother. It was like seeing the miracle of Lazarus in real life. My father literally said, "In the name of Jesus Christ, wake up." My uncles pulse began to beep and all the doctors and nurses rushed in to begin working on my uncle. I'm not saying rising the dead or any miracle happens on command. No, but God has his application for miracles for today for His purposes.

[@velkyn1]

and not one shred of evidence for such claims.

[@hhstark8663]

@@velkyn1 False! There is evidence, since there are *documented peer-reviewed in patient journals* cases. See the two-volume 1258-page book "Miracles" by former hard-core atheist Craig Keener.

[@velkyn1]

@@hhstark8663 hmm, I do wonder where my comment went that shows that Keener was not an atheist. one just needs to look at his wikipedia entry to see that. Harry, why would you lie about that? And Keener has admitted that his book is full of anecdotes with nothing to support them. It is not research, it is a pile of stories.

[@hhstark8663]

@@velkyn1 Keener said himself in his interview with Sean McDowell that he was an atheist who mocked chrisitans as a young man (he would have been in your age basically)! Look at the video if you don´t believe me. Yes, most of the testimonials in regards to healings are verified in the patient journals. The only events who are not are the settling of storms and food multiplicatation because you obviously do not record those things in patient journals! Even for those instances, there are more than one eyewitnesses. If you reject testimonials in general, then how do you know about what happened in history?

[@HarryNicNicholas]

he's jesus then, the new god. has he cured cancer yet?

[@Westrwjr]

This is good because it achieves what likely is at least one of Sean’s key goals with this new interview on an old topic- striking the proper balance between full denial of modern day miracles (e.g. full cessationism, or ordinary atheism) vs. potential New Apostolic Reformation tendencies to see miracles where they don’t really exist, or worse, phony Christian faith healers seeking to prop up their expensive lifestyle. Upon examining the TOC of Moreland’s 2021 book on Miracles, it clearly focuses on the really KEY questions many of us have been seeking straightforward answers to.

[@SeanMcDowell]

You got it!

[@lorenpat]

Funny the people people mention as NAR (though none of them know what NAR is). often see very verifiable miracles. Your characterizing is in poor taste.

[@Westrwjr]

@@lorenpat In our reality, facts hold significance. Although we may not always ascertain whether someone truly witnessed a miracle or not, we have undeniable evidence that numerous purported miracles within the charismatic community have proven to be fraudulent. Justin Peters Ministries, Holly Pivec, Voddie Baucham, and Dr. Michael Brown, among others, have extensively exposed such occurrences. Failing to address clearly deceptive practices within our Christian community reflects poorly on our judgment.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

I was in one of J. P .Moreland's first classes at Biola University and it was fantastic!

[@dorothyfrench2788]

I was a missionary in Malawi and can testify to just such miracles Dorothy French

[@Potamotrygorgeous]

Sean sure has a way of letting someone speak.

[@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo]

Sean prompted the thing about the pool table. "JESUS cares about the little things ... JESUS wants JPooltable Moreland to have a pool table" After drowning every baby on earth in a flood, JESUS needs a feel-good story.

[@frankwhelan1715]

Because Sean believes this stuff as well,incredibily.

[@arminius504]

@@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo Bad take

[@elidiapearfindchannel2587]

I appreciate your prayers for healing of breast cancer and depression...😪🙏😑

[@Draezeth]

About 2 years ago, one day my brother's best friend came to our house. This wasn't an unusual occurrence, but this time the usually upbeat teen broke down crying without a word. After getting it a bit out of his system, he told us what was going on: his sister was dying in the hospital as we spoke. She had overdosed, intending to commit suicide, and was now in intensive care. The doctors had told his family there was no hope- she would either die completely, or end up brain-dead. For the first time in my life, I felt a compulsion inside me to pray. I had prayed many times in the past, but I had never asked for a miracle, but in that moment I just felt like it was the right thing to do. My brother was (and currently still is) agnostic, and his friend was an atheist, so rather than pray out loud, I prayed in my head, while still listening to the conversation. I prayed for the whole conversation, after which he left. He came back a week later, almost back to his upbeat self. I asked him about his sister, and he told me she had survived and was not brain dead. She had retrograde amnesia, though- like Dory, or in the movie Memento. Again, I knew it was time to pray. I prayed out loud on my own this time. I never saw that friend again, but my brother was still in contact with him. A week later I asked my brother about the situation, and he told me his friend said she made a full recovery. She went from being pronounced dead by her doctors, to completely restored with no symptoms, in two weeks, each week punctuated by a prayer. None of the parties involved were spiritual in any sense, nor had any motive to lie, and I never told any of them about what I had done. This was not just a miracle, this was two miracles in one, defying coincidence, and defying medical explanation.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

if people are worthy of miracles, why are they performed AFTER they are needed, i mean why not prevent the car crash from happening in the first place, rather than saving the victim? god is showing off?

[@heavnxbound]

@@HarryNicNicholas Are you sure that He doesn’t prevent accidents? How would you know they weren’t stopped when they never occurred? Miracles are by definition a rare occurrence, as it’s not the standard. It’s also a result of grace, and if you stick to Biblical theology you can add to it that God has the wisdom to see when a miracle is most beneficial versus when it isn’t, depending on the best outcome for that individual person.

[@Draezeth]

@@HarryNicNicholas There's a clear answer to that, illustrated by Christ's word to the church in Laodicea: "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him and he with Me." God, unbridled, would have defeated Satan coming out the gate. But God holds Himself back by waiting for man's cooperation. The only time God acted without first finding a person to work alongside is when He *creates* man. In like manner, God waits for our permission before acting today. He wants to save us all, but He waits until we confess our sins and admit that we need Him as our Savior before He does so. He quite simply does not act without being asked to.

[@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo]

Cool story. Now find a limbless person - with lots of videos available over 10 or 20 years documenting they have no limbs then pray for them and provide videos of them winning the regular olympics decathlon. Do this BEFORE modern science regrows peoples' limbs.

[@hhstark8663]

@@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo I think Keener as a limb-regeneration event in his two-volume 1258-page book "Miracles", and it is peer-reviewed I believe. You should find that if you look through his book.

[@Kvothe3]

34:30 So all the hits count as confirmation but all the misses get theodicies and don't count against?

[@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo]

You type that as if it's a BAD thing.

[@Diary_of_an_Evangelist]

Hey man, that's a pretty shallow understanding. If you understood God and the nature of human beings, you'd understand why its a great thing that God doesn't answer every prayer. Humans are evil, we don't know what is really good for us. If God granted every prayer this world would look like Hell. I'm guessing you're an atheist based on that question, so I've got a serious question for you and any unbeliever who happens to be reading this; If you knew Christianity was true, would you give up sex before marriage, lust, pornography, drugs, getting drunk, homosexual sex / marriage, plus all other sin, and then kneel before the Lord Jesus Christ? Please answer honestly. Much love, God bless

[@davidchamberlain4466]

@VinceKinneyTV Suppose I live in a place that has a 50% chance of rain every day and I pray to God for rain on two random days. If it rains on one day but not on the other, does the FACT that it rained on one day prove that God answered my prayer? Does the FACT that it did not rain on the other day NOT count against the theory that God answers prayers for rain?

[@davidchamberlain4466]

@VinceKinneyTV Well, if you don't like the thought experiment then you should do the hard work with your own experience. Keep track of every prayer you make. Assess what the probability is that each wish will come true without divine intervention. Then compare how they come out. I have little doubt confirmation bias will still prevail in your assessments and you will still believe in the power of prayer, but I urge anyone with a more open mind to try this themselves. I wonder what would happen if Moreland kept track of every item he ever prayed for and compared the results to his pool table miracle.

[@Becca_Lynn]

Please pray that God heals me, my cousin, and my dad.

[@truthseeker632]

Why would God heal a non believer of cancer when so many believers pray unceasingly for healing and don’t get healed.

[@BibleFanatics]

Because God as Proverbs and Paul says causes it to rain on the just and the unjust. He loves all creation and blesses even non-believers at times. Plus the glory, love, peace and joy the believer will experience at death is anything beyond the pain we can suffer here. So sometimes God calls believers home and it's there time to go. But that doesn't mean he forsakes them or doesn't love them. He says in the Psalms precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints. He watches over us even in our dying moments with care, and we with anticipation can trust that we will see him and he will wipe away every tear. But for the unbeliever it is nothing but God's grace to spare them the torment of eternity with out him. It gives them time to Repent and believe in Christ.

[@passthebaton7916]

Great interview

[@everydaymiraclespodcast1395]

Love this! And we DO talk about miracles on my podcast. I have actually been completely blown away at what God has sent me to share! It’s increased my faith! The Holy Spirit is very active!!!

[@ruggjugg1339]

Literally just yesterday as of 09/15/21 approximately 6:50 i was at the gym and I was just doing some abs on a machine and everyone starts freaking out and I hop up and see this guy ceasing on the floor and had split his head on the bench this guy was blue in the face, all I could think of is pray so I ran around alittle in confusion then made my way at his feet and started praying as everyone else had already surrounded him there wasn't anything that I could really do other than call on the Lord. So I prayed for about 30 seconds and this guy regained consciousness i ran to the locker room to grab my towel to replace the paper towels and this guy was completely sitting up when I got back. He was kinda out of it like he didn't know what happened and was kinda talking crazy for a minute but by the time the EMT got there he could kinda answer questions. But he was on his way to the hospital alive and conscious and I give glory to God for it i know everyone else might not believe what happened but i know that before I called on God this guy was blue.

[@livewireOrourke]

That's awesome to hear! If times do get darker, I wonder if we'll see more miracles.

[@chuckporritt6958]

I do not know if you lack medical knowledge, or are trolling us. But what you saw is typical of a major seizure. That includes people turning blue (cyanotic) for a brief period before recovery. To pray for the welfare of such a person is certainly appropriate. But what you saw was not a miracle. It happens every day.

[@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo]

@@chuckporritt6958 party pooper.

[@ruggjugg1339]

What about the boy that had the demons that Jesus cast out and said that it would regularly try to throw him down and kill him how do you know that whenever I prayed something didn't happen that God didn't step in whenever I called on him I think to say that it wasn't a miracle is unreasonable but like I said in the above I don't care what anybody says I know what I saw

[@amberkennett7544]

First, I do believe God still does miracles, but I would like to give push back on a couple of things JP said. A few times he talked about whether a person has enough faith would be one of many reasons why God would perform a miracle. This seems to me to put the burden on the person, who seems to me, has enough faith in the mere fact they are placing their request before God. Secondly, he talked about going to a church like the Vineyard, would be good place to go to for people to pray for healing. Doesn’t that imply that God works through a certain type of church, when really any group of believers coming together interceding on behalf of the person God also hears? I understand he did give examples of this occurring, it just confused me when he answered one of the questions by referring the person to a good Vineyard Church. Please keep in mind there are a lot of people recovering from Word of Faith Churches.

[@DaProfetTV]

Hi 👋🏽 , I’m not here to get into any debate but I would like to state that Many times Jesus could not perform healing because of the lack of faith of the individuals. Another passage in scripture is when Paul healed a man because he saw the man had Faith to be healed. I can give you these scriptures in a second. I believe that according to scripture, faith has to do with the healing.

[@DaProfetTV]

Scriptures are: Matthew 13:58, Acts 14:9

[@hhstark8663]

I think JP Moreland meant the word "expect" or "ask" for miracles. People should do that more often, instead of being discouraged, according to him. If people do not at the very least attempt to pray for something, how can God demonstrate his powers?

[@amberkennett7544]

@@DaProfetTV again, isn't it enough to come to God knowing he can heal and present your request to Him. How much is enough faith? We need to be careful how we frame this, many "word of faith" teacher will use this when someone is not healed-"you just didn't have enough faith". Very spiritually abusive. Jesus also healed someone who didn't even know who He was in John 5:13. Jesus came up to him.

[@amberkennett7544]

Faith is trusting God. When you come to him and make your request known you are coming to him in faith. What's your measurement when it comes to faith? Is there is a line in which you have enough or not enough?

[@LudaLeinster]

Very much respect J. P, Godly man and brilliant philosopher. Wish there was a clearer distinction made between God's providence and provision for us -- as in the situation of the young man J.P. mentioned whose prayers were answered with a check that met his needs to the penny-- and the situations where the course of nature or natural laws are temporarily interrupted by God's power such as healing of the sick, sight to the blind, water into wine, dead raised to life. etc. Many acts of God's providence and provision for us are things out of our control, way beyond coincidence and great gifts of grace to us, but I don't think they rise to the level of a Biblical type of miracle.

[@gildamuro5314]

Yes. My sister was healed from Covid

[@williamarmitage7702]

Just downloaded the audiobook looking forward to diving in

[@lilmisspeace]

To the weird prayer question: My daughter was about 5yo and had a secondhand Barbie doll who had one leg shorter than the other. One day she brought her doll to me and told me she wanted to pray for her so God could grow her leg to make them match. My daughter had grown up seeing prayer and even being prayed for when she had a broken bone that saw divine miraculous intervention, so though it seems weird it was the understanding she had of the situation. Well, we gathered together as a family, put our hands on the doll and prayed. To EVERYONE'S surprise except my daughter's, when we were done we saw the legs were the SAME length!! We jiggled the legs of that doll, measuring them up over and over!! My only answer was that, though I might sound crazy for the testimony, God loves my daughter and showed her by fixing her Barbie doll 💜 I have so many testimonies of beautiful things God has done for me and my kids that sounds absurd- but isn't it sort of absurd that we get to have a relationship with the Creator of EVERYTHING? And isn't it absurd that He would die? But still be alive? And He died so we could live? Isn't the gospel absurd to our thinking? So why wouldn't God just do things to baffle us as an expression of His incredible love?

[@ryana1787]

It’s the pool table interview!

[@Kvothe3]

As an agnostic who would very much like to believe I pray for faith most days. Should I count all the silences as confirmation of my worldview in the same way Dr. Moreland seems to count every big hit as confirmation of his? Why or why not?

[@douglaswise6797]

Step 1: Ask God to reveal Himself to you. Step 2: IF you get an answer then skip step 3. Step 3: IF you get silence, repeat step 1. To a skeptic, the infinite loop is clear as day. To a Christian, it's a Bible verse. How many times should you repeat the same process expecting a different result?

[@geraintroberts565]

In a naturalistic materialistic universe even one is impossible! So why are you hung up on the unanswered ones rather than the answered ones?

[@douglaswise6797]

@@geraintroberts565 It's not about requesting something to happen, then later witnessing the event actually happening. It's more about the percentage of a successful result vs the percentage of a placebo giving a successful result. Hope I explained it correctly. If you aren't sure what I mean, I'd be happy to explain further.

[@KlickSipYT]

A miracle doesn’t have to happen to you personally for it to be evidence for the existence of God. If these stories did legitimately happen, wouldn’t they be proof of something supernatural whether it’s you who experienced it or somebody else?

[@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo]

@@KlickSipYT Step 1: pray to a jug of milk. Step 2: IF you get an answer you proved the supernatural. Your jug of (now curdled) milk is GOD. Step 3: IF you get silence, repeat step 1. Proof of the supernatural? no, proof of gullibility.

[@COAT1900]

Josh and Dr. Moreland. Do you think that praying to God for personal desirable objects such as cars, homes, “pool tables” validate the prosperity gospel? Why not just become Christian as Dave Ramsey stated he did “to become filthy rich”..? Thank you.

[@vickitate7148]

Never seem to get in on the live stream, but here is my question or comment. I completely believe in God's power to do anything that is His will, inside or out of the expected. But I just have a problem with "How to" as if God can be directed by us. Is that really what prayer and faith amount to. I do not mean to be contrary.

[@Mark-yb1sp]

You are 100% right on. Finally, someone with the voice of reason.

[@KJ-lb4tj]

Yet, there are times in the Bible that God appears to do something as a direct result of people asking. Ok God, if only 100 good people are found, what if only 50 or 10 or 1? God eventually agrees that if only 1 is found he will save them.

[@rogerwalters6443]

@@KJ-lb4tjOur minds don't comprehend it. They are just bad interpretation.

[@Diary_of_an_Evangelist]

Hey Vicki, I was actually just talking with my pastor about this last week. We talked through some stuff and I came out with some conclusions. I'm not sure if they're right but they seem to make sense; The first thing is that prayer is for us primarily, not God. He doesn't need prayer, but He likes it. He seems to like it for two main reasons - firstly is genuine heartfelt prayer serves to align our will with God's will, which is good. As we talk heartfelt to God, praying things that are within His will, it brings us closer to God, which shows our love to God, and helps to align our wills too. As far as asking for things from God, my pastor gave a very nice analogy that helped me a bit; My pastor has a few young daughters, like five years old or so. My pastor would never think of offering any of them a soda; they get hyper and he'd rather not deal with it. But when one of his daughters runs up to him and asks, "Daddy, can I pleeeaaaassseeeee have a soda? I haven't had one for like two whooollleee weeks." , He's then inclined to give it to his daughters because he loves them. I think the way this applies to asking for gifts in prayer is this; God might not even be considering giving you something, but He loves you, when you ask for something that He knows is going to make you happy, and is actually going to have a positive effect, He's inclined to grant your prayer request. To God, you're a lot like one of my pastor's cute daughters running up to him and asking for a soda, he wasn't thinking about giving it to you, but He loves you and wants to give you good gifts. Especially when you ask for them, if God grants you a good gift in a timely fashion, it's going to bring you closer to God in you relationship. Of course, most of the times we don't actually know what we should truly want, or what's really good for us. And God likely doesn't want to spoil us, or else gifts would lose their value, but I think there's some insight to be gained there, it definitely helped me after I had that chat. God bless, Vicki, I hoped that helped a little bit

[@sharoncorrell9801]

The book is called "A simple guide to experiencing miracles." Seems like the first guideline would be submission to God's purposes and will. Another guideline is that God loves faith and often responds to it.

[@GorgeousRoddyChrome]

Pool table?

[@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo]

POOL TABLE.

[@GAMEoVIDZ]

For good or bad Sean seems to be up against some of the most sour Christians as well as trolling atheists. I hope they will draw closer to God and be given wisdom and a less judge mental attitudes, as a parent wanting to watch over your children and friends is a worthy goal. Keep up the good work Sean.

[@EricHernandez]

JP is my man!!

[@HarryNicNicholas]

i doubt he even knows you exist.

[@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo]

@@HarryNicNicholas I bet they play pool together.

[@frankwhelan1715]

@@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo On the table that god supplied.

[@Kvothe3]

Are there any studies that do the full data set? That record all the times prayer doesn't have any effect? Does prayer move the needle above randomness?

[@HarryNicNicholas]

moreland says "these are documented cases" but they are STORIES. none of these anecdotes are evidence of anything, if it were he'd be in line for a nobel prize.

[@hhstark8663]

@@HarryNicNicholas How do you know that, when the book is not even out? haha :) You have not receieved an early copy of it. :) Read the book first at least when it comes out in November, then go bananas if you want to.

[@frankwhelan1715]

@@hhstark8663 Well he gave the stories HE was most impressed by here, (if not why not?) and they didn't show any (good) evidence, so whatever is left in the book would be even less impressive

[@PC-vg8vn]

@@frankwhelan1715 Are you saying then that the people he spoke to, for example the Jewish lady who said she was healed from cancer after prayer, are just all liars?

[@Angel77_7]

How about going to the Source. Sincerely ask God to show you if He is real & are biblical miracles true in this day and age. I would strongly suggest you hold on to your seat when you do. Been there, done that. There was no bigger skeptic than me.

[@sethtrey]

22:40 That's the experience of praying in faith. (I say this, having deduced it more than experienced it.) To be shocked when something happens means you weren't expecting something to happen. That's not faith. A person praying with faith would be surprised when something DOESN'T happen.

[@curiousgeorge555]

Great interview. Concerning the video tape of legs being lengthened that J.P. Moreland speaks of. I've wondered why there aren't any tapes like these on KZbin. It would seem that certain types of skeptics would come to faith over these. Does anyone know if anything like this is on KZbin or elsewhere online?

[@ybh8ful]

WOW, why's this guy got 3 angels following him around?? 😲😊

[@HarryNicNicholas]

god has everyone under 24/7 surveillance remember.

[@heavnxbound]

@@HarryNicNicholas What’s wrong with supervision? Do you hate parents for watching over their children as well?

[@Mark-yb1sp]

I don’t believe it one bit.

[@sharoncorrell9801]

I expect I've got a few angels myself. Just never got to see them. 😃

[@tonyabrewster1855]

@SeanMcdowell my question is. Does scripture support that it is Gods will to heal? I believe in miracles and divine healing. But is it His will for our life?

[@tonyabrewster1855]

Also I don’t believe that Jesus is a genie in a bottle that we ask for “things”. Hard for me to wrap my head around the examples he gives.

[@Kvothe3]

Sean I know your role here is to let the guest shine and promote their book but I hope you put out a review of this conversation where you nuance things a bit more carefully.

[@Mark-yb1sp]

So disappointed in Sean

[@Diary_of_an_Evangelist]

@@Mark-yb1sp How come? It was a chill conversation talking about a new book where these things are explained in great detail and carefully cited. It wasn't meant to be a video to convert anybody or change anybody's mind on the spot, it was just meant to tease the new book and get people thinking about miracles and how often to expect them.

[@mccaboy]

Certainly nuanced enough for one to do his own seeking

[@togbourn]

I’m here for the pool table story.

[@t.n.2342]

Pinecreek?

[@togbourn]

@@t.n.2342 it’s a KZbin channel - a guy that uses SE (street epistemology) when talking to people about the their religious beliefs (mainly Christianity). He also critiques videos by the likes of Sean as well as other apologists.

[@t.n.2342]

@@togbourn I know Doug already man(or ma'am)😅I was asking if that's who you're referencing I'm watching him right now actually

[@togbourn]

@@t.n.2342 oh I see. Hard to communicate over text sometimes. Yes sir or Madam, that was indeed who brought me here.

[@t.n.2342]

@@togbourn ok, cool😅for the record I am a theist. But I think referencing the pool table thing isn't a good reason justifying belief. Though if a miracle claim could not be explained by coincidence or naturalism I'd buy it. Nice to bump into u dude✌🏼

[@donnaross7531]

I prayed for God to help with my marriage. We had just bought a house but I suspected he and my friend were sleeping together. 10 days after I prayed over my new house I caught them together in my bedroom. 😭 Today they are married.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

that's god for you, you have to try really hard to make excuses for his blunders, but it can be done, in fact EVERYTIME god fks up you can find a good reason for it. it's called "living in la la land"

[@heavnxbound]

@@HarryNicNicholas I’m fairly sure you missed the point here, sir.

[@AB-ew6tz]

Please pray for me... I had severe bulimia and anorexia for over a decade, was semi-recovered for a while, and I've been in full relapse back to bulimia since 2019. I'm also struggling with flashbacks and fear/mistrust of others due to PTSD. My abusive religious ex was a real wolf in sheep's clothing. He would tell me that I wouldn't have so many problems if I was a better Christian. He r**ped me in his car while Christian music was on the radio. Because of that, I've been having trouble stepping foot back in church because hearing any kind of religious music at all sets off panic attacks. I can't afford treatment right now. I need a miracle

[@cord11ful]

Praying for you beautiful sister in Christ!

[@AB-ew6tz]

@@cord11ful thank you! 😊

[@TheToastercrumbs]

Sean McDowell you should go on PineCreek youtube show!!!!!! would be awesome!!!!

[@hhstark8663]

I personally would prefer Sean going on the channels "inspiring philosophy" and "Testify".

[@krizilloo2538]

Why no mention of miracles confirmed by the Catholic Church, like Eucharistic miracles, stigmata, etc.?

[@hhstark8663]

Time constraints?

[@krizilloo2538]

@@hhstark8663 Or perhaps Protestants don’t acknowledge these miracles or find some of them suspect. That would be a great topic to explore.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

so morelands friend gives god an ultimatum "give me the money by such and such a date or i quit" huh? and he gets it? can i do that?

[@heavnxbound]

Quit what? The context was that the guy would take it as sign that seminary wasn’t for him, or that God had a different path in mind for him, to put it that way. “If you don’t provide the money I need to finish seminary then I’ll quit seminary, and try something different.” He never mentioned quitting anything else, and it’s the logical conclusion to quit when you cannot pay for it.

[@erikmeissner9899]

It wasn’t an ultimatum he was directing toward anyone. Pay attention.

[@marcinfigiel6570]

I don't think the "amount of faith" has anything to do with chance for a miracle. Jesus healed a child of a man who was clearly skeptical about Jesus's ability (though asked nonetheless, Mt 9,14-27). This was done as a sign for people around Him, to certify He's God. Maybe God reaches in this way to some people, but I don't think we should expect such things. Job prayed for all his children and they died an untimely, accidental death. In fact, many of the Jesus's disciples died horrible deaths. Sometimes a blessing is entirely not what people expect it to be.

[@Mark-yb1sp]

You are 100% correct. The scriptures says ‘He is faithful when we are faithless. ‘ 2 Tim 2:13. Miracles do not make people believe. They just confirm the faith of those of us who already do believe. So disappointed in Sean. He lacks simple discernment.

[@rogerwalters6443]

I'm an eyewitness to a miracle. They do not happen as a result of man. They happen in spite of us and apart from our prayer or will. Only His will.

[@cpt.kimintuitiondemon]

A pooltable ?

[@hhstark8663]

I agree that the economical miracles are a bit weird. But the biological miracles are fine and credible (and documented).

[@cpt.kimintuitiondemon]

@@hhstark8663 What do you mean exactly by "credible" ?

[@hhstark8663]

@@cpt.kimintuitiondemon This is my criteria for biological miracles: - The patient should have a terminal illness with virtually no chance of recovery and be documented in a patient journal (you should basically be getting palliative care-which is basically a death-sentence). - The healing should be as a direct response to prayer. - Multiple eyewitnesses should be present to the healing. - Ideally, a skeptic/non-believer should be present as well. - The recovery should be documented in a patient journal. If all those criteria are fulfilled, I accept the biological miracle as genuine. If you have an improvement of the criteria, then please share it. _________________ I can recommend the channel "inspiring philosophy" and "Testify".

[@ramigilneas9274]

@@hhstark8663 Unfortunately by that criteria there isn’t a single recorded biological miracle.

[@ramigilneas9274]

A really really good and expensive professional pool table.😉

[@davidbelcher7097]

Dr. McDowell - I'm wondering about this topic - is the claim being made that these people have the 'gift of miracles' or just that miracles are taking place? Is the person that is praying for the miracle being credited with the power of working miracles? Because if a person prayed and the result was an immediate miracle in response to that prayer, then doesn't that person have the gift of miracles? If not, how does the power get grounded biblically? Miracles that are attributed to the work of a person's prayer categorizes that into the same gifting as prophecy and Apostleship, which also has the ability to offer inspired revelation as well. I agree that God continues to work - I'm just wondering if the claim is that this miracle work is His providence or is there is a latent understanding that these people are exercising the same power the prophets and apostle did?

[@SeanMcDowell]

Great questions. JP is not focusing on the gift but on their present reality in the church. There’s scriptural calls for all believers to pray for healings and miracles. He doesn’t really discuss the Q of gifts, although he says in the book that he’s not a cessationist.

[@jeffengstrom8657]

If JP's position is anything like Wayne Grudem's position then I think your question is moot. Grudem would claim that apostolic uniqueness garnered by authenticating signs is not a legitimate category. There is no difference between what the apostles did miraculously and what anyone of us can do miraculously. The statement that Paul makes about the signs of an apostle in 2 Cor.12 becomes meaningless. JP's position would probably be very similar to Grudem's as JP also believes in continuing revelation. In one video clip I watched how JP described the way in which God speaks to him. This then is a big problem. Even if some of JP's miraculousl claims are truly of God, (which btw would be impossible to prove, we just assume it) he would be misusing them to undermine apostolic authority and the uniqueness of the Scripture.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@SeanMcDowell it's seems weird to me that on the one hand miracles are supposed to be rare events that cannot explained, but i often hear "this sort of thing happens all the time" car crash survivals, air crash survivals, mountain rescues blah blah blah. which is it, is god saving aunty emily from her acne every day of the week, is it statues of mary bleeding at the eyes or is it veterans having their limbs restored? oh i forgot god has NEVER restored an amputee. come on give me another feeble excuse as to why god NEVER cure amuptees........

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@jeffengstrom8657 " Grudem would claim that apostolic uniqueness garnered by authenticating signs is not a legitimate category" god you can waffle mate i'll give you that. i'm not even sure which side of the fence you're on. can't you speak english?

[@PC-vg8vn]

@@jeffengstrom8657 To be clear, Paul said some of the marks of being an apostle 'included signs, wonders and miracles'. But he makes clear elsewhere that God has given gifts to ALL believers, and he included healing and miracle working as examples. In other words it isnt just the original apostles who were so gifted, though it would have been pretty obvious they were multi-gifted, including their teaching and preaching. It seems to me the 'typical' believer has one main gift (which may change), whilst the original apostles were multi-gifted, as i said, and through whom God worked particularly powerfully, no doubt at least partly because they were establishing the church and were directly continuing Jesus' ministry. But as Paul also said, the body of believers is gifted to fulfill its role as the body of Christ. So in believing that direct healings and other miracles continue to happen to this day does not mean Moreland is undermining apostolic authority. Peter

[@sebastianheimann7639]

So if you really believe that God does these miracles, but also that people have to pray for them to happen: Shouldn't all Christians who believe this spend all the time and energy they can to pray for sick people to be healed, hungry children to be fed etc., Instead of asking for pool tables and dream houses? If you're potentially having influence on such a powerful force for good, "wasting" it on seemingly simple, selfish tasks doesn't feel right, does it?

[@HarryNicNicholas]

yep, likewise god allows suffering because it leads tto a greater good, which is why i try to cause as much suffering as humanly possible, cos, think of all the good i am doing - in the future of course.

[@douglaswise6797]

So lemme get this straight, a woman who wasn't even a Christian and went to a prayer group because "what do I have to lose?" gets healed from cancer pretty much right away. But to a Christian that prays and doesn't get healed, they didn't have enough faith... Guess it's all Gods will, right?

[@HarryNicNicholas]

"mysterious ways"

[@heavnxbound]

“They didn’t have enough faith” is something that hyper-charismatics say, and it’s heretical. Don’t get your theology from heretics :)

[@rosamenchen9084]

If one has faith, then one does not need another miracle to cause one to believe. Having faith, is believing that the death/sacrifice of Christ, is sufficient for redemption from sin, and make the faithful children of God, and in the next life eternal without pain, sickness or sorrow but perfect love

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@heavnxbound the old "they aren't real christians trope" is really, really annoying, it's a PATHETIC excuse. people not even christian - cured of cancer, another case, not enough faith - it's fkn EXCUSES and it's sick, you should be ashmaned of such deception and self deception.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@rosamenchen9084 it's all lies and when you are told "you don't have enough faith to be cured" that's a SICK loe, your religion is SICK, the practitioners are SICK. you make up all kinds of bollocks and people invest in lies. words fail me.

[@glenliesegang233]

Particle physics says solids are not, and particles are not "things" as much as "events." For He /They who made quarks and Light , changing matter and energy-no problem. Time at a quantum level, appears to not be as we experience it, because it can go forwards and backwards. Death, no problem.

[@charlotteroath9904]

Love the guardian angel stories. I hope I have one. I wonder if there are enough for every believer to have at least one?

[@chelseabarker2250]

If you are going to inherit salvation - you sure do have one! See hebrews 1 verse 14. ❤😊

[@HarryNicNicholas]

if you follow the christian mythology it's incredibly unlikely that you will believe you are going to hell or that god doesn't care if you live or die, that's what religions are for, so the people who fall for this bollocks can sleep at night. so, yes of course there a flocks of guardian angels for all of you, god is inifinite, god can do anything, you can even kill, rape and steal and he'll let you off. don't you know what your own religion is for?

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@chelseabarker2250 has anyonereported a negative for salvation, cos i get the distinct feeling that although god says there is this place called hell, he never actually sends anyone there, all you have to do is suck uo to god at the last minute and you get let off, say the magic words and presto!! bound for heaven, do you know ANYONE who says "i am going to hell, i have not had salvation"?? of course not. scam.

[@chelseabarker2250]

@@HarryNicNicholas there are plenty of people who think along those lines but it certainly isnt biblical christianity. Not sure how you ended up on this channel but I hope it blesses you somehow. I would recommend watching the interview on here called something along the lines of is Christmas a pagan holiday? It's not all about Christmas though it is a very good one. And also check out the living waters KZbin channel specifically the video about the "sinners prayer." Ray comfort does a good job destroying the arguments of people who think they are good and going to heaven but really arent. Christianity is not a feel good "everyone goes to heaven when they die" religion. There is a very pervasive false christianity here especially in america that preaches that but it isnt true. Jesus said "wide is the way that leads to destruction and many follow it, and narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life and few find it." I hope you decide to be one that seeks the Truth until you find it! Blessings in the Name of the One and Only King Jesus to you and yours! ❤

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@chelseabarker2250 you really heard what i said didn't you. i've been atheist all my 67 years, i have yet to see any sign of god anywhere, doing anything.

[@mawrawmiller561]

If your Christian friend died than God did heal him in heaven

[@tex959]

Sean, are you related to Greek immigrants to the New Orleans area maybe 200 yrs ago? You look so much like my dad's side of the family and you have the same personality. Look up one of Britney Spear's ex-fiancé' named Jason Trawick. You look and act so much like him and those on my dad's side. He's my 3rd cousin. The last name "Trawick" changed quite a bit over the decades. It was much longer and more 'ethnic' sounding. All on that side loved philosophy/arguments and many were into music as well.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Interesting question. But not that I know of. My roots are a bit different. Thanks for asking!

[@tex959]

@@SeanMcDowell Thanks for the reply!!

[@HarryNicNicholas]

you ought to get over to pinecreeks channel cos he's asking some tricky questions mr moreland.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

why isn't JP in hospitals 24/7?

[@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo]

'cos there ain't no pool tables in hospitals. ... and JP can't be bothered to pray that hospitals get pool tables, he got his already.

[@chunchunli5181]

Miracles are performed by God in his sovereign will….JP and all believers are servants of God, and God can use anyone to exercise a miracle for his good purposes….however let’s not forget that God’s purpose is to make dead people alive in Christ….gospel centric and disciple makers…and JP is doing that…his calling

[@chunchunli5181]

@@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo - Sanjeev, your comment has an undertone of bitterness…..see Ephesians 4:30-32….bitterness and slander grieves the Holy Spirit….a reason why we cannot see the miraculous in our lives.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@chunchunli5181 if you can't present a contract from god signed and witnessed, stating you are an authorised representative, i have to dismiss anything you say as irrelevant.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@chunchunli5181 if you can't present a contract from god signed and witnessed, stating you are an authorised representative, i have to dismiss anything you say as irrelevant.

[@zacharyhumpherys8969]

So Moreland wants to show that "miracles" aren't just psychological phenomena, yet his book is literally a guide to experiencing them...

[@Pseudo-Jonathan]

Wow bro. You’re so insightful

[@geraintroberts565]

Sorry Zack, that makes no sense. Did he claim all are psychological or just some of them?

[@zacharyhumpherys8969]

@@geraintroberts565 I'm simply pointing out an irony. As a skeptic, it makes perfect sense to me that the people having these experiences of supposed miracles are at least by and large those who hold a priori beliefs in the supernatural, who were indoctrinated, relatedly, with the corresponding ideas about religious phenomenology, and who are open enough to experience both to hold these beliefs in the first place and to strongly desire to find confirmation for these presuppositions through such means as have been discussed (e.g. my daughters got a pool table, therefore God is so good). The theological explanation for this, per Christianity, is that God rewards those who have faith. "Seek and ye shall find" has some truth to it either way. Hence you can have a book with a title like Moreland's, unironically. But consider if it makes any theological sense in the first place, because this is the main reason why discussions like this of these sorts of "miracles" get on my nerves in particular. Why should God arrange for someone who already believes wholeheartedly in the salvific message to have a revelatory experience which further strengthens their faith, all the while engineering the circumstances for billions of others to even be born into the wrong faith tradition, for which he will never stop torturing them after they die? And why should God reveal himself as loving and good to someone by helping them remember where they left their car keys when he kills a terrorized child every several seconds on average using a tsunami, for example? As a Christian, I could never get behind this view of God, besides the fact that my exposure to the miracle propounding subculture of Christianity made it look ridiculous to me from epistemological and practical standpoints.

[@zacharyhumpherys8969]

@@hhstark8663 You said, "You cannot heal terminal cancer by placebo! That is impossible!" Well, I'm not sure that's entirely true. Spontaneous remission/regression is a well-attested phenomenon, especially with regard to cancer. It was quite controversial for a while, but it's now accepted as indisputable (and natural). We don't know for sure what causes it, but there are plausible theories. You like documentation, so you can go investigate the cases yourself if you can get access. I'm pretty sure you'd find plenty where the supernatural wasn't invoked. More broadly, there have been studies on third-party intercessory prayer and, as far as anyone can tell, it doesn't work. But maybe that's putting God to the test, so he wouldn't perform under those conditions. The bottom line is that when you don't understand something, you investigate it if you can. And if you can't explain it at the moment, you simply have to admit that you don't know. That's what I recommend, anyway. Proper skepticism throughout society can prevent a lot of missteps.

[@frankwhelan1715]

@@zacharyhumpherys8969 Waste of time,using logic with christians.

[@Mark-yb1sp]

These stories are just subjective stories. They are NOT provable. Sean is slowly turning into the opposite of his dad.

[@hhstark8663]

What are you talking about? The case of the secular jewish woman is documented in a *patient journal*, plus multiple witnesses. The secular woman was herself a skeptic. If you want even more *documented cases in patient journals* , I can recommend the two-volume work "Miracles" by former atheist Craig Keener.

[@Mark-yb1sp]

@@hhstark8663 Harry, Harry, Harry….. what I’m talking about is not written documents (because they are derived from subjective sources), but real live video evidence. Which is something we will never see. Stories are nice to encourage, but because they can be ‘fabricated’ just as much as the written print can, we can be lead down a path of theological fantasy which is very unhealthy . I used to belong to a church that did this on a weekly basis until I woke up. Never again.

[@PC-vg8vn]

@@Mark-yb1sp Are you seriously saying that written documentation is not good evidence, but a video is?! Live video can be manipulated. I think, if youre honest, you wouldnt believe any evidence presented to you because your mindset is 'miracles dont happen'.

[@Mark-yb1sp]

@@PC-vg8vn Wrong. Miracles do happen. But I don’t need a miracle to walk this journey called faith. You can keep the miracles, I’ll keep the fruits.

[@PC-vg8vn]

@@Mark-yb1sp And yet that wasnt the attitude of the apostles. And Jesus' own ministry was full of the miraculous.

[@chuckporritt6958]

Having read through this entire thread, it seems to me that the argument boils down to this: ‘Is not our entire universe and planet earth a miracle, along with all of the biological life that inhabits this planet?’ Is it not a rejection of divine miracles that is foundational to human guilt? Knowing God and everything about Him, and yet refusing to honor him as God. This is the condemnation that rests upon all of humanity (Romans 1:20-21). Now we are commanded to repentantly acknowledge the power of God, believing that the Father has raised the Son bodily from the dead. This embracing of God‘s combined justice and power defines Christian repentance and faith (Romans 10:9). And so the question before us is not ‘Is God still working miracles?’ The question is ‘In what context is He working them, and how are we to understand them?’ I am a cessationist. I believe that Daniel‘s 70th week is the ‘Great Week of the Abrahamic Covenant’: beginning with Abraham, divided in the middle by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and soon to be completed at the second coming. And so in John’s Little Book (Rev 10-13), I understand the two witnesses (Rev 11:3-13) to represent God’s giving of the entire Bible (the ‘Law and the Prophets’) to the world before 70 AD. Until then God bestowed miraculous power UPON SPECIFIC PEOPLE in order to authenticate their message; most importantly upon His Son and His apostles (Heb 2:4). But when 70 AD came, the Bible was completed and the guilt of Israel for crucifying the Messiah and seeking to block the proclamation of His gospel is revealed in the two witness’ bodies lying in the city of Jerusalem throughout the second half of the week. This guilt attributed to Israel represents the fulfillment of the warnings of Moses, the OT prophets, the Lord Jesus and His apostles. This is the scriptural basis for cessationism; the end of SPECIFIC PEOPLE being given miraculous power in order to authenticate the offices that they held; the offices of ‘Messiah’ and ‘apostle’. This explains the error of the charismatic movement. That movement claims that miracles authenticate a PERSON’S true conversion, or a PERSON being baptized or filled with the Holy Spirit, or a PERSON’S unique gifts. But God no longer uses miracles to authenticate people. That task was finished through the Lord Jesus and his apostles. And the veracity of their words has been sealed before the eyes of the entire world through the destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Jewish people since 70 AD. I rejoice in the miracles described in this discussion, and the fact that they are often seen amongst oppressed Christians in China. But it seems to me that a failure to distinguish between apostolic miracles and today’s miracles ‘leavens’ this discussion.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Chuck, I always appreciate that you give thoughtful responses. I agree that clarity is needed, but as you know, there’s only so much time and space in a single interview. We had a little bit of a different goal in this interview. Jp talks about a little bit in this book.

[@chuckporritt6958]

@@SeanMcDowell Thank you Sean for monitoring your thread and engaging with your viewers. As I thought a little bit more about this subject, it seemed strange to me that Christians who believe that God created the universe out of nothing, and that His Son is soon going to re-create all things through the redemptive power of His shed blood, should be amazed by any other miracle. Maybe this is why Jesus said that if we have any faith at all (like that the size of a mustard seed), we can command mountains to jump into the sea (Matt 17:20). In this context it seems to me that faith is not the result of miracles, but the necessary precursor to miracles. Jesus could not work miracles in Nazareth because there was little faith there (Matt 13:58). And He accused the Jews who were seeking after signs of being ‘a wicked an adulterous generation’ (Matt 12:39, 16:4). Bottom line? Those who seek after miracles and make much of them may be abandoned by God to their own ‘smallness’. Those who have genuine faith are more likely to see miracles in their lives and the lives of others, because God knows that they desire Him more than the miracles themselves.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@SeanMcDowell god can do no wrong, god is everywhere in everything, blah blah blah, don't you get tired of covering up all the killings god has done, having to look ridiculous and dishonest by inventing complex lies to prove he doesn't sacrifice people (jesus was a blood sacrifice surely) doesn't have slaves, all this bollocks? when are you going to grow up, stand on your own two feet and be a HUMAN instead of a god robot. has anyone reported a negative for salvation, cos i get the distinct feeling that although god says there is this place called hell, he never actually sends anyone there, all you have to do is suck up to god at the last minute and you get let off, say the magic words and presto!! bound for heaven, do you know ANYONE who says "i am going to hell, i have not had salvation"?? of course not. followers of the christian mythology are constantly accusing atheists of "just wanting to sin" but god gives his followers the PERFECT conditions for doing any and all kinds of evil and then, presto!! they get let off. it's bollocks and how you can't see it beats the crap out of me. i imagine followers of the christian mythology would agree that god helped or allowed humans to find cures for polio, diptheria, whooping cough, aids, smallpox etc etc. unless we did that all on our own? if god helped us find a cure for those why is he still curing cancer one patient at a time? we're good enough for the smallpox secret, not quite good enough for the cancer secret? god likes showing off his ability to "perform miracles" is that it? what's your excuse for god this time? don't you get tired of having to perjor yourself for this despot in the sky? aren't you sick of having to write entire books, make hours long videos making excuses for a guy who just kills people as if it means nothing?

[@hhstark8663]

@@HarryNicNicholas Either you admit that: 1. God exists and he has done "evil" things according to you. In that case, you stop being an atheist and become a theist. or 2. God does not exist, then you cannot accuse him of doing any "evil". Have your pick.

[@michaelsbeverly]

FYI, here's an excerpt from the book, proving that JP thinks an illegal act is a miracle: Page 77: What he said next made my jaw drop. He said that if I agreed, he would design and oversee the entire installation. He would contract each company, oversee their work, and landscape the entire backyard, even arrange for the installation of a sprinkler system that included the hill! I would not have to do a single thing. Best of all, he could secure the whole job for less than half the price of what others would charge us. But how? How could he offer me such a deal? He told me he was overseeing a new housing development with about a hundred homes, all of them with pools. As part of the project, he could offer various contractors the chance to work on that huge project---if they gave a deep discount on our pool.

[@horridhenry9920]

I am always interested in what people consider to be miracles. Most such claims are anecdotal ,lack detailed evidence and fall foul of the logical principle that correlation is not causation. The scientific study of the efficacy of prayer has yet to provide any empirical, scientifically rigorous evidence supporting the power of prayer. I cringed at how easily and uncritically Dr. McDowell accepted JP Moreland’s account of the miraculous. This book should be renamed “Miracles for credulous and gullible believers “. I have not read the book, but I am willing to bet that there is not a single scientifically documented case of an amputee regrowing their limb. God gives JP Moreland a pool table , but is incapable of helping millions of starving and diseased ridden men , women and children all over the world. I hope it was a nice pool table.

[@frankwhelan1715]

If there was such a case it would be headline news world wide, almost all amputees would have dealings with the medical profession the ones that wouldn't would be the rare exception,(maybe god Decides only to heal these rare exceptions)and who would be the first to report such an incredible event,believers don't seem to see that

[@horridhenry9920]

@@frankwhelan1715 Agreed. If l was a Christian, what would concern me is that Dr. McDowell and JP Moreland are considered to be at the pinnacle of Christian intelligentsia, yet they buy into demonstrable nonsense of miracles and Guardian angels. Even a nobody like me can debunk their claims without exercising either of my two brain cells.

[@KJ-lb4tj]

@@horridhenry9920 how do you support or debunk these claims without having spoken or seen the 'patient' or supposed miracle? . Just asking a simple scientific question that seems to have left the realms of proof here.

[@horridhenry9920]

@@KJ-lb4tj Lets make sure we are not mixing up terminology. The burden of proof is on whosoever makes the claim. However , science does not prove things. Every conclusion we may ever reach remains open to questioning, revision and even dismissal. People make these claims and they are accepted uncritically. The Templeton foundation scientifically tested the efficacy of prayer and the conclusion was that it could not be distinguished from chance. A positive claim must be “proven”. Until then the null hypothesis is the accepted default position otherwise any magical claim can be accepted as valid until proven otherwise.

[@PC-vg8vn]

@@horridhenry9920 The problem with supposed 'scientific' experiments on prayer is the basic methodology is on a false basis. Think about it, if prayer, in this context, is asking God to do something, in effect you are demanding God do something and if He chooses not to to make some scientists happy, then it's claimed prayer does nothing! Youre trying to force God's hand. As if we're in a position to do that lol. I noticed you also initially claimed that you could 'debunk' Moreland's claims regarding healing, but when asked how you would do that you then said the burden of proof was on the one making the claim. Resorting to the null hypothesis is not debunking anything. That was some manoeuvre!

[@dedmo79]

If this guy is a “top 50 philosopher” i would hate to see #51.

[@DiggitySlice]

You should look up his actual talks

[@ramigilneas9274]

Maybe he meant "top 50 Christian philosopher“, that would explain a lot.

[@xone-bonecusher4773]

The only guide is Jesus.

[@michaelglass9604]

Word to the wise. Sean take the phrase, "trust me" out of your future conversations. Its typically not used by trustworthy people. I am not saying you are not trust worthy but if you are then you don't need to tell people. . .just be trust worthy. Get it? If you disparately need something to fill the air say something more productive like, BLA BLA BLA. It would be more helpful. LOL

[@SeanMcDowell]

Totally fair point!

[@togbourn]

Lol, what was the reason more miracles happen in places like China, India etc. again?

[@velkyn1]

I've always found it amusing that Christians can't agree if miracles still happen or not. Some claim they do, some claim they've stopped for various reasons. That there is no evidence for miracles seems to indicate that either they've stopped or they never happened. Now, since the bible says that baptized believers in Christ as savior can heal injury and sickness, can have any prayer asked in JC's name answered with what was prayed for and answered quickly, it seems that either every self-described Christian is doing something wrong, or the bible makes many false claims. Many Christians have claimed they have prayed for me to agree with them. I've always told them I don't need that but why not pray that every amputee and burn victim be restored. Of course, they won't since they know nothing at all will happen.

[@hhstark8663]

*Quote* "That there is no evidence for miracles" *Answer:* False! There is *documented peer-reviewed* cases in *patient journals* . See the two-voluem 1258-page book "Miracles" by former hard-core atheist Craig Keener.

[@douglaswise6797]

@@hhstark8663 Anecdote is the weakest form of evidence. 1258 anecdotes (assuming one testimony per page) is just a ton of really bad evidence. What would be good evidence then? Percentages of Christian prayers being answered vs percentages of other religions prayers being answered would be a great start!

[@velkyn1]

@@hhstark8663 Keener may or may not have been an atheist. It certainly doesn't seem to be the case, him being born in 1960, getting his degree at a christian college in 1982, and having always been employed in chrisitan jobs since then. Christians like you do tend to try to add claims of some Christian being an atheist to make them seem more believable. It only serves to show you have no problem in making false claims. There are no documented cases reviewed by peers in the process that is used in the sciences. In most cases in this set of books, Keener has nothing more than testimony. He includes known frauds like Wigglesworth, who claimed to have resurrected 14 people. If you have actually read the books, you would see that Keener admits in the introduction that he just didn't bother in validating the claims he makes in many cases, with the excuse of supposedly not having time. That is not a valid excuse for a researcher. So all you have is a christian who admits that all he wants to do is make claims to convince people that baseless claims should be considered valid. His best argument is "people still claim miracles so claims of miracles must be true". Anyone can read the intro on amazon. I suggest you do so in order not to look like a liar.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@hhstark8663 sorry but there is no evidence for miracles. these are anecdotes not evidence. if there were any substance to any claim there would be a nobel waiting, you're another dick who is so caught up in wish fulfilment you aren't using your brain.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@hhstark8663 and just for he sake of being annoying and hoping a blood vessel in your temple is set to a throbbing, there is ZERO EVIDENCE OF ANY GODS too. lol.

[@BigDongWong]

I see god is a fan of shooting some pool. Wonder if he's a shark and that's how he's going to beat Satan. The ultimate match.

[@PaulHarrisonVideos]

More stories here. kzbin.info/www/bejne/epKQiICaqpikmpY

[@evanskip1]

Unapologetically, PineCreek disciple, this was really baad, really bad, demonstrating miracles ~ CC capturing Christianity

[@hhstark8663]

If you want to get intellectually challenged, I can recommend the channels *"inspiring philosophy"* and *"Testify"* .

[@lamaar8252]

@@hhstark8663 - intellectually challenged? Please explain what you mean by that?

[@hhstark8663]

@@lamaar8252 As in getting exposed to new ideas he is not previously aware of.

[@lamaar8252]

@@hhstark8663 - Oh.. I not sure how he may have changed in the few years.. but most of his new Ideas in the past was bloviation and philosophy mumbo jumbo.. I hope he has improved.. by less noise and more tangible evidence..

[@SamuelGunnestad]

His rigorous documentation of the evidence was the e-mail telling about the story?? This was disappointing, Sean! And a pool table! Document a limb regrowing or something.

[@tex959]

and.. don't forget the "growing legs," as Morland says is supported by youtube videos... After that claim, I could never take Morland seriously.

[@hhstark8663]

Actually, there is a documented limb-growign event in *patient journals* in the two-volume 1258 page book "Miracles" by former hard-core atheist Craig Keener. ___________ I can recommend the channenls "inspiring philosophy" and "testify".

[@SamuelGunnestad]

@@hhstark8663 If this is one of the "miracles" from the 1600's it's hardly documented. It's quite amusing that the ones dismantling these claims are often rival Christian groups

[@hhstark8663]

@@SamuelGunnestad If you would have read the book, you would have known that it happened during the *21st century* .

[@SamuelGunnestad]

@@hhstark8663 I have read the review and comments on Randal Rousers blog. Are these documented anywhere? If limbs regrowing are a thing the reporting would not be limited to his book

[@BurningBushPedagogy]

You are a dolphin but you don't believe in water, Christian don't believe in miracles is not Christian not a true Christian, when everything about Christianity are based on miracles, should I list them for you?, sometimes we need be blunt and call a spade a spade.

[@danielpugh2913]

Good grief! So God has answered prayers for miraculously lengthening legs...but never has regrown or restored an amputated limb. How Moreland is listed "somewhere" as a leading influential philosopher...is truly...a miracle!

[@Renxo761]

What's with the deluge of bitter atheists in the comments? Why are you so angry toward a God you claim you don't believe in? Why do you try to tear the faith of other people down? I think you are just afraid because you know that God is real and the consequences of that kills you. Otherwise, why bother obsessing over it? You're trying to convince yourselves, not just others. I don't believe in unicorns, but I don't spend my time arguing against them.

[@childofgodtwo7869]

Satan can also heal remember, I dont believe in the oil thing sounds abit of to me ,nobway will I practice these tings at all ,all we need is the word of God ,

[@douglaswise6797]

Genuinely curious, where does it say Satan can also heal?

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@douglaswise6797 satan cando anything, why do you think he's a problem, i am satan leading people astray, unless you make your church happy they will accuse you of being satanic too i expect. satan is in anything that makes you doubt that god is real, and as god is not real, then eveil is all around. worried? i'm not cos i think it's ALL fkn nonsense. nonsense designed to scare gullible idiots like you.

[@douglaswise6797]

@@HarryNicNicholas oh I know lol, I think it's all mythology too. I especially like it when Christians make up stuff that isn't even in their own holy book, for example, that Satan heals too! Where is that in the Bible? There's a reason I didn't get a reply yet ...

[@hhstark8663]

@@douglaswise6797 What are you talking about? The Old Testament is filled with other religions making miracles. Other religions are products of the Devil, theologically speaking. Therefore, the source of those miracles are the Devil. _____________ People are busy. You cannot expect them to be on the internet 24/7. I can recommend "inspiring philosophy" and "Testify" for more information.

[@douglaswise6797]

@@hhstark8663 Thanks for answering. But that wasn't my question, my question was, where in your holy book does it say Satan can heal? I'm not asking about miracles by Satan. I'm asking about healing by Satan. Chapter and verse would really help me out. Last thing I want to do is make a positive claim when there's a clear chapter/verse explaining the contrary.

[@roylewis2708]

"someone who has most shaped my thinking" Shame on you for allowing such shallowness to shape your thinking....praying for a pool table? Credibility just nose dived, for both of you but especially for you Sean. Pure cringe !!

[@johnblank9891]

You must be a fundamentalist!! Why don’t you think God gives things as in material things to His children just because He loves them.??

[@roylewis2708]

@@johnblank9891 What does it matter what I am and it's relevance to the self-serving and selfishness of the example quoted? If God is so superficial to grant such a frivolous request whilst ignoring the prayers for true suffering then he is not a loving, benevolent or caring GOD.

[@michaelsbeverly]

It's worse than the pool table. That story is tame, here's an excerpt where he claims committing a crime is proof of God's love and miracle power: Page 77: What he said next made my jaw drop. He said that if I agreed, he would design and oversee the entire installation. He would contract each company, oversee their work, and landscape the entire backyard, even arrange for the installation of a sprinkler system that included the hill! I would not have to do a single thing. Best of all, he could secure the whole job for less than half the price of what others would charge us. But how? How could he offer me such a deal? He told me he was overseeing a new housing development with about a hundred homes, all of them with pools. As part of the project, he could offer various contractors the chance to work on that huge project---if they gave a deep discount on our pool. *this is a violation of the California's Contractor's Law against kickbacks*

[@northernlight8857]

This was underwhelming. Its conserning that grown people have such lack of critical thinking and sceptism.

[@SanjeevSharma-vk1yo]

They prayed for critical thinking skills and they got Christianity. PRAYER ANSWERED !!!!!!!! HALLELUJA !!!!!