A History of Nerve Agents - with Dan Kaszeta

[@AB-80X]

As an Organic chem who specialise in organophosphates, I can say without a shadow of a doubt, that Dan's book Toxic is brilliant.

[@oldestnic]

I hadn't realised I was an expert in the chemistry of this area. I made toxic organophosphates in lab in the 1960's, and are or were used in domestic insecticides as example 2,2-dichlorovinyl dimethyl phosphate. Related similar chemicals are much more toxic.

[@ShornDunlevy]

I seem to remember some derivatives bicyclic phosphates with a manganese dative bond to the phosphorus which were more toxic. But honestly, it's been decades and I wasn't looking for poisons. So I bow to your superior knowledge. I like to learn something new every day, so thank you.

[@ShornDunlevy]

Back in 2001 a chemist who had worked for the Swedish defence establishment vouchsafed that an entirely new class of agent - non-selective GABA antagonists had been developed. Like the nerve agents, the basic chemistry isn't hidden. Yes, it's in very obscure academic journals but not hidden as such. bicyclic phosphates are the most well known but their are related compounds that are even more toxic. GABA antagonist AKA 'cage compounds' were accidentally discovered in two separate fields and it was the fact that two chemically different compounds caused similar toxic symptoms that alerted scientists that the QSAR was quite wide. The first was poisoning seen in German furniture manufacturers in which formaldehyde in glue reacted with sulfurous diamide that was added to prevent mold. Apparently the mystery poisoning affected others. Meanwhile chemists were seeking to obtain pure phosphorous acid. Distillation seemed the obvious route but it was noted that the distilled acid proved to contain a toxic impurity. Repeated distillation resulted in an even MORE toxic compound - this was due to the formation of bicyclic phosphates - which produced almost exactly the same symptoms as those seen in the furniture makers, It was recognized that both were 'cage compounds', both caused seizures and both were very difficult to treat. Since then researchers have introduced bicyclic phosphate derivatives containing dative bonds (as seen in chemicals like carbon monoxide). The papers on these derivatives are extremely hard to find but they almost universally turn up in journals dealing with toxins - ostensibly to make researchers aware that such classes of compound display unexpectedly severe toxicity. The papers on the most toxic examples don't appear to be available digitally.

[@snapdragon6601]

I looked it up on Wikipedia. I found one compound known as IPTBO (isopropylbicyclophosphate, also IPPO). I had never heard of it before. Interesting stuff, but I sure wouldn't want to ever come into contact with it. 🙂

[@musicalneptunian]

Worth mentioning as well that Scientific German was a compulsory subject in British undergraduate science degrees until the 70's; I have a German science dictionary on my shelf that was used by British science undergraduates. Not just for German papers in engineering. But also in chemistry, botany and biology. Such science dictionaries are priceless; I have no idea where you would get anything like that now.

[@nicolek4076]

I don't now where you get your information, but I can tell you from personal knowledge that you are incorrect. I did a science degree in the early 70s and did not need any German for this.

[@musicalneptunian]

@@nicolek4076 I said until the 70's; had a family member who got a phd at sheffield university in the 60's. Interesting if in the 70's this requirement ended.

[@beverlyanne5699]

Used book stores, yard sales, estate sales, inheritance. I have a natural draw to collect textbooks. Your German one sounds interesting.

[@cgmp5764]

A very interesting historical perspective on the emergence, development and control of these WMDs.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Thank you!

[@peteheim]

Awesome lecture, ordering the book. Thanks Dan and RI.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Thank you. Glad you liked the lecture. Hopefully you will like the book!

[@GodlikeIridium]

Those guy in the beginning invented the super impactful Grignard reaction and the Haber-Bosch reaction. So not just bad things.

[@ludekspurny5553]

Exactly. Those guys weren’t bad guys they only want to help their motherland to win the war. We consider chemical weapons inhumane. But I think (and I know a lot about chemical weapons I am CBRN officer with 29 years of experience) this is our feeling. Is it more humane if part of shell like a fist open a belly or cut of a leg? But according our feeling it is OK and according to international law. It is strange. All ways of killing in a war are nasty. But insight on chemical weapons was different in WWI.

[@randomgenretalk8151]

"The History of Nerve Agents" Well, it all started with the First Impact...

[@RamenNoodlePackets]

Excellent video, thank you Sir.

[@defenderofwisdom]

The easiest ways to cope with guilt are with: honesty, penance, resistance and ensuring one stands on the right or good side in the face of immorality and injustice.

[@benjaminkramer9440]

In a dirty game, it is impossible to be on the right side.. or am I wrong?

[@defenderofwisdom]

@@benjaminkramer9440 Are you feeling guilty? Or cornered? Or have you been hurt? My game is clean. Maybe you need to turncoat. Try my way, be an Amyntosopher. Will you reach out to me and join forces with me? My phone number is ***-***-**** (you should have it now after 23 minutes public). Don't make me have to change it.

[@defenderofwisdom]

@@benjaminkramer9440 I pursue the right the true and the good. Am I the only one? Pursue it with me. But it can only be done with face-forward solidarity in the face of this massive abuse and threat. Some of us will be beaten or die or lose lived ones... Winning the dirty game the clean way will be about numbers. Let us gather the numbers, then.

[@defenderofwisdom]

@@benjaminkramer9440 Let me know if I am right.

[@defenderofwisdom]

@@benjaminkramer9440 Alas, none will stand with me -.- One clean game against the world. There is a joke. A band of Orks were under fire from a Space Marines position. The Orks cried out "we'z strongest!" Someone on the Marine side replied "One Space Marine is stronger than ten Orks!" The Orks wouldn't take this. They sent ten Orks but they never came back. After a while they heard "One Space Marines is stronger than a hundred Orks!" So they sent a hundred Orks. After a while they still heard nothing. Then they heard "One Space Marine is stronger than a thousand Orks!" So they sent a thousand Orks. Shortly thereafter, only a dozen returned. The Warboss demanded to know why so few returned!" One of the survivors replied " 'dere was two of 'um!" Just saying. Together means spatially, lock-in-step, forces of numbers, standing rightly in the light. Not everybody cut up and apart in the shadows, slowly allowing the threat of death and violence to destroy everything we hold dear. Pain is temporary, but time exceeds our short lives. Buried, drowned, whatever... I am not afraid of my own death but during a dirty game I fear for the future.

[@superdupertyson]

very interesting! I had learned some of the rougher details of this studying history in highschool. I have come back to this stuff after reading some of gravitys rainbow and then learning about the role companies like IG farben played in war. most of this stuff seems to have been brushed aside from mainstream history. Its very fascinating how Germans were so advanced in this area. They really had some very intelligent chemists. It seems hard to find good in depth documentaries on companies like IG farben and bayer, etc, and the aftermath and lawsuits that followed.

[@islandblind]

Good work, Dan. I plan to purchase the audio version of your book soon, and maybe, the print version at a future date. I wanted to point out a couple of things about the Tokyo subway attack. I recall reading in another book which discusses the history of nerve agents that the Tokyo attack could have been much, much worse than it was, but for a couple of factors. First, of all, if I understood correctly, the sarin that the cult used was rather impure, and secondly, the method of delivery was rather inefficient. If the agent had been chemically pure and had been delivered as an aerosol, there might have been hundreds, if not thousands of fatalities instead of thirteen.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

You've got it correctly surmised. The execution of the attack was quite crude and improvised. They did not have anything close to an efficient dissemination method. Also, they had a limited quantity which they "stretched" by diluting it. You'll read/hear more about it in my book - I've got a chapter on the Tokyo stuff.

[@adonalsium844]

This was an interesting lesson, thanks.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Thank you!

[@kazkk2321]

I love nerve agents. I wish I could have worked with them in school. The chemistry and effects are interesting

[@bodombeastmode]

I'm really curious how you could "love" nerve agents. I understand how you could be curious about them, but love them? Are you a sociopath?

[@ludekspurny5553]

@@bodombeastmodehow can somebody love guns? Nerve agents are interesting. And deffinitely saved more people than killed. There are not bad things but bad people.

[@PedanticNo1]

This was quite an informative, engaging presentation. Well done, Mr. Kaszeta.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Thank you so much.

[@nancymencke503]

Tremendous presentation. Thank you so much

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Thank you

[@elfriedethiessens9175]

Hi Dan, very interesting presentation! thanks, fan of you. :) regards, Elfriede Thiessens

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Thank you!

[@davidk.1089]

Its a fascinating lecture, but its a very cold lecture. Millions, including my moms family were gassed in concentration camps. It was brutal.

[@adhilmuhammed9402]

I miss the stage and the audience 😢

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Indeed. I really wished I could have done this live.

[@frankdelahue9761]

@@danielkaszeta3086 Do you know about BRAIN initiative?

[@monkeyfash8253]

It is quite unnerving for me to watch someone talking about nerve agent, and it is making nervous 😟

[@simonparfitt8]

Unnerving?

[@anonviewerciv]

Not much on the chemistry of later agents such as the V-series and Novichok. 16:16 Organophosphates. (24:00) 30:30 Deterrence via industrial might.

[@ludekspurny5553]

I can recommend a book Toxic…. written by Dan Kazseta. Despite I know quite a lot about nerve agents (I am CBRN officer) I learned something new. I wish more such an interresting books

[@danielkaszeta3086]

By stunning coincidence, the guy that wrote the book also did the lecture

[@ludekspurny5553]

@@danielkaszeta3086 this is probably the reason immediately remembered this fantastic book!😁 On the mobile phone and full-screen mode I didn’t notice it.

[@PatGilliland]

Great presentation - thank you.

[@Biociety]

Chemical warfare can be deadly dangerous, so as Biological warfare

[@ioannisgalatas1720]

Good work Dan! Congrats!

[@danielkaszeta3086]

ευχαριστώ

[@thomassavinetti6915]

@@danielkaszeta3086 hail the kremlin

[@anapaulatillman.6133]

Interesting points made about why the Nazis never used Tabun. The horse thing was something I'd never considered.

[@bertarissen6568]

The yearly sheep dip on our farm in the past, one big chemical ballet that tested our nerves and those of our sheep to the limit.

[@stilllsid]

Amazing speech

[@globalmomentumuk9070]

Thank you

[@wktodd]

Good talk:-) I'll look up the book

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Thank you

[@MadMax-bq6pg]

Some black humour from down under… A mates grandad got gassed rather badly, western front,WW1. He was 17 & the drs removed a lung. Within 2 months they had removed a portion of the remaining lung. He was told he would not live long and should put his things in order and enjoy what little time he had. Bill’s grandad shuffled off the mortal coil at 84 having cultivated a habit of 6 cigars and a bottle of brandy a day. 👍go the Diggers!

[@agnelomascarenhas8990]

Well, if grandpa had no lung(s), the risk of lung cancer was that much smaller.

[@deanburney]

Old Soldier stuff. Deadly. Dangerous.

[@stemc83]

Was the store of chemical weapons in Wales in Llanbedr?

[@ABrit-bt6ce]

"A drop in the bucket" Nice one sir.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

I do occasionally try to slip in a zesty one-liner.

[@PMA65537]

"nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance" Isaiah 40

[@gigglexpuppy]

I thought I heard that you mentioned more people died from Calvary swords than from chemical agents in WWI, which I believe, but was wondering if you had a source on the number of deaths. The chemical one was one easy google search away the sword one not so much.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

It's a difficult point to prove because causes of death are usually not mentioned in the death records. A soldier dead on the battlefield is usually just ticked off on a list as "Dead". There's better statistics on the "gas warfare" deaths, because almost all of these did not happen on the spot, but in field hospital or clearing station after the battle, where there was better record keeping - although that record keeping varies significantly in accuracy country by country. For the specific issue of cavalry sabres, the issue is compounded by the fact that the majority of the cavalry actions were on the Eastern Front, and record-keeping in the Tsar's army was spotty at best.

[@brandonheyward8635]

1944 the legend was born

[@danielkaszeta3086]

No. 23 December 1936 is the date.

[@DaKoopaKing]

Is there a Q&A?

[@danielkaszeta3086]

I did a Q&A for the Royal Institution event, but this was not put on KZbin. I am happy to answer reasonable questions on here, though.

[@Bigohno0]

Yes

[@BenjWarrant]

Dan - just FYI, and if you're interested, it's 'Sorlsbiry' not 'Sal's berry'.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

I'm stuck with the accent I have, unfortunately.

[@BenjWarrant]

@@danielkaszeta3086 Just trying to help you out, not complaining about your accent. Someone once taught me to say La Hoya.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

@@BenjWarrant Fair enough. Have a nice day Ben

[@BenjWarrant]

@@danielkaszeta3086 Same to you.

[@SavageStephen]

instead of paying for that book I got it for free here thank you youtube algorithm

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Don't worry, Stephen. If I were to read the book to you, non-stop, it would take about 13 hours. My talk is less than 1 hour. So, by my reckoning, you got 7.7% of it. Consider it the equivalent of you standing there in the bookshop for an hour leafing through it, which, of course, I can't stop you from doing. Have a nice day.

[@grego3150]

Less than 2 minutes in and I've brought your book

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Thank you!

[@GodlikeIridium]

6:00 Russia and Italy are unreliable? Not what this meant, I know, it's about the source, but it's still funnily accurate 😅

[@DaveWhoa]

i was hoping for some pyrethrins vs cockroaches!

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Well, pyrethrins, unlike carbamates and organophosphates, aren't nerve agents.

[@stevelenores5637]

A dark subject for this channel.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Well, we live in dark times.

[@stevelenores5637]

@@danielkaszeta3086 Since last winter I've studied the pandemic, the American Civil War, WW2, and now the Cold War. The mistake is thinking the Cold War is over. In fact the Cold War is global now and not just US vs. Russia. Dark times indeed.

[@kagannasuhbeyoglu]

Question: Will we always fight? Answer: Sorry yes!

[@falstmusic]

Wow

[@elkudos6262]

It's just a bit on the nose, but I bet is gonna end up on the codpiece anyway.

[@elkudos6262]

Nevermind, "The Putin's Russia" is right there on the cover.)))

[@elkudos6262]

So it kinda did.

[@juliarekamie]

🙏🏻

[@Olli4]

Very interesting, but could have done with a little less "it"s in my book" every 5 minutes to be honest :) Anyway, hope he sells some copies because of this talk.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

It was genuinely hard for me to compress the whole subject into the allotted time, so I felt like I should signpost viewers to parts of the subject where I felt that I covered in more depth in the book. Glad you like my talk.

[@HansLasser]

@@danielkaszeta3086 Just ordered your book, Sir. As an avid WW books reader, I learned about the beginning of industrial chemical warfare in the book: La Grande Guerre chimique 1914-1918 by Olivier Lepick. Good book if you speak french. In our world where terrorism and asymmetrical warfare seem to become the major mode of conflict, chemical warfare protection is critical. After all, the Aum cult proved in Japan that even non-state actors can achieve this warfare capacity.

[@Olli4]

@@danielkaszeta3086 fully understand, maybe I was just paying too much attention to it. :) I have wondered many a time what kind of crazy (bio)chemical weapons and nerve-agents have been developed in the past years, that live on shelves somewhere... Even though there is such a thing as a chemical weapons convention and OPCW... Perhaps a good starting point for a follow-up ;-) Regards, Oli

[@doctorscoot]

Edmund Tilley is probably a work name. A handsome gentleman officer fluent in German hunting high level industrialists and industrial designs and finance product? Only a sketch? Maybe from someone's recollection? ;-)

[@danielkaszeta3086]

No. I've done a lot of research. Edmund Tilley really was his name. I've found his official service records in Kew and documents written by him, and found distant descendants of him. As well as a book (unrelated subject) written by him in the 1930s.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

I suspect he may have continued work after the war in MI5 or MI6, which may easily have been under a work name, as there's no trace of him from about 1948 until his death.

[@doctorscoot]

@@danielkaszeta3086 ahhh or maybe just a quiet life in the public service? Anyway thank you for the great talk also - the thing with Tilley just came to me in a flash as you were describing him.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

@@doctorscoot I'm glad you liked the talk!

[@honkeykong9592]

23:00 or 4 you start explaining how they hype up the acetylcholine production then and state this has the opposite effect of was folks expect and then name some other German effectively dodging all the chemical details and reason I’m here 😂

[@mogeniki8298]

Love science

[@badpharma461]

There are entire classes of equally toxic agents that are ready to hand. Dioxin, tricyclic phosphate esters and VERY simple things like carbon monoxide (as deadly as cyanide).

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Yes, but that's literally not what my talk was about.

[@paulhowden720]

Be in time mask in 9

[@ght.s1732]

bem loko

[@ldohlj1]

oh... I thought nerve agents meant like AI and stuff

[@klaus_niemand]

"if you want to know it, well, its in my book": thumbs down

[@danielkaszeta3086]

I'm really sorry, but I could not fit every detail from my book into a 55 minute talk. Even if I were to literally read my book aloud, it talks 12-13 hours. So, yes, there are many things that are treated in further detail in my book that I could not cram into this presentation. That's just how it is.

[@klaus_niemand]

@@danielkaszeta3086 No personal offense intended, if so please accept my apology, i'm just a person with manic hypersensitivity to advertising.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

@@klaus_niemand Well, apology accepted. Feel free to read my book in a library if buying it is a stretch too far.

[@terryloder6339]

History of chemical warfare in Syria, Never happened, except in US machinations

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Feel free to pitch your own talk to the Royal Institution. Let me know how you get on, Terry. I'll wait.

[@Alexander-Kurtz]

Dan Kaszeta, the one who claimed that Syrian forces dropped " a metric ton of Sarin" on Ghouta in 2013......What next, inviting Alex Jones to talk about satanic rituals at Bohemian Grove ?. This is hilarious.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

I think you'll find that I was, indeed, correct in my assessment. Both the OPCW and the United Nations have confirmed that the Ghouta attack occurred, that rockets were used, that the Syrian government was responsible, and that a large quantity of Sarin was used. Take your conspiracy theories and propaganda elsewhere.

[@Alexander-Kurtz]

@@danielkaszeta3086 " Both the OPCW and the United Nations have confirmed that the Ghouta attack occurred, that rockets were used, that the Syrian government was responsible, and that a large quantity of Sarin was used..". The same OPCW inspectors who publicly denounced the falsification and doctoring of their initial reports?. “If you tell a lie many times, and repeat it over and over, it ends up becoming public knowledge”. Joseph Goebbels would be proud of you Dan Kaszeta. Keep on doing the good work, you sure have entertainment value. You are the Alex Jones of chemical, biological, and radiological defense.....

[@danielkaszeta3086]

@@Alexander-Kurtz Perhaps direct your comments elsewhere. Like 4Chan or Reddit.

[@64Pete]

@@danielkaszeta3086 This is youtube Dan, basically the septic tank of internet commentary. No better than 4Chan or Reddit. Enjoyed your talk, cheers.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

@@64Pete Glad you liked my talk.

[@terryloder6339]

He's a liar working for Bellingcat.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Please explain which bit of my lecture was untrue. Or remove your comment.

[@solventbiocide7309]

The reason Germany didn't use the nerve agents is because the Bush family was a bank roller. Assumed the allies had it cause the bushes paid for their stock.

[@ashokkumar-se5sl]

MAZDOOR KISAN ANDOLAN ZINDAWAD😐😐😐

[@brencrun5068]

Gave up after 8 minutes in.......didn't need to hear another plug for his book or his disjointed commentary.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Thank you for staying 8 minutes. Hopefully you learned something.

[@helloboris]

Speaker enjoys sound of his own voice a little too much. Listened to 15% and he hasn't actually said anything yet.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

To be honest, I don't really like the sound of my own voice. Sorry that you feel that way.

[@VesperGuy]

@@danielkaszeta3086 i strongly disagree with this guy, you're an engaging and educating speaker

[@danielkaszeta3086]

@@VesperGuy Thank you. I can't make everyone happy. That's just how it is. But I thank you for your support.

[@JonCardwell-m8p]

Not good.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

Umm, what was bad about my lecture?

[@HolisticHealthEducation]

A shameless advertorial for selling a book. Published on a education oriented channel. It raises a lot of questions?

[@danielkaszeta3086]

I was literally invited by the Royal Institution to talk about the book I wrote. It would be disingenuous of me not to mention that I had much more thorough information in a book.

[@bertarissen6568]

But Dan doesn’t oblige you to listen….or buy, does he?

[@ingemar_von_zweigbergk]

talk about former soviet union countries, communist asian countries and communist arab countries poisoning little kid girls so that their faces are destroyed. and that everyone is afraid to talk about it because they are afraid their own children will be disfigured.

[@Haplo-san]

Don't use white backgrounds please.

[@danielkaszeta3086]

I can't seem to win this argument. I've also been told off for using dark backgrounds in other talks.

[@andylee6785]

1hr book plug? Is this what NI lectures have sold out into? Shameless!

[@danielkaszeta3086]

I'm sorry that you feel that way. I wrote a book and it was released on the UK market 4 months before the lecture. NI came to me and asked if I could talk about it.

[@JediBuddhist]

Cant do the RI PowerPoint thing. Boo. 👎

[@sparky9c22]

Do not fear. Have FAITH in Jesus Christ!

[@Xiph1980]

I have faith in Frodo and Samwise.

[@MrAshtute]

@@Xiph1980 I don't trust samwise....